Les Baer/ Wilson legality in IDPA


August 12, 2005, 04:25 PM
Does anyone know if a TRS, PII or a Wilson Professional is legal in IDPA comp. If so what class?

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Jim Watson
August 12, 2005, 04:51 PM
They are all .45 ACP 1911 derivatives, aren't they?
Then they are fine for CDP.

August 12, 2005, 05:00 PM
They're OK if Bill Wilson makes them. :rolleyes: ;) :confused:

August 12, 2005, 05:11 PM
now that is just mean Krag, no matter how true it maybe. But then again..... :neener:

August 12, 2005, 06:05 PM
Jim, isn't there a bull barrel issue in the 4" and longer 1911's?

Jim Watson
August 12, 2005, 06:05 PM
You won't get in an IDPA shoot with a Wilson Tactical Elite. No bushing.
Or a CQB with searchlight rail. Too heavy.

I have checked the line count at major matches and not seen enough Wilson guns to amount to a week's production. If ol' Bill was counting on IDPA to support the store, he would not be doing well.

Bill Wilson is himself shooting this year's Nationals in SSR for which I am pretty sure he does not make a suitable gun.

Good night, Gracie.

HSMITH: The IDPA maximum length for a bull barrel is 4.2". The Professional is 4.1" (Along with a whole host of 4" Kimbers and SAs, so it is not likely another Wilson plot.) TRS and PII are 5 inchers with bushings as best I recall from the alphabet soup of 1911 mutants.

August 12, 2005, 06:25 PM
Yeah, Bill is shootin SSR this year because he finally changed the rules to suit him for Revolver Division...now he doesn't have to compete with all those dredded moonclip guns. :neener:

Really, I think he knows he pissed off half his core membership (and I know he doesn't make ANY money from IDPA, but) and he's just shooting revolver as a way to show he's "one of us".

I think Bill is related to the Anti-Christ :fire:

August 12, 2005, 07:14 PM
I mean "Meaningful",, "Meaningful"

Otherguy Overby
August 12, 2005, 07:47 PM
I've place in Arkansas (Ozarks). I've talked to several smiths who worked for Wilson and one or two others who had friends who worked there.

Not one of them had a kind word to say.

August 12, 2005, 10:04 PM
Thanks Jim!

August 12, 2005, 10:23 PM
You know what guys, this Bill Wilson bashing gets old, and I don't even know the man, own any of his products, care to own any of his products, or even care to carry to sell any of his products. But this internet bashing of the man has gotten real stale as of late, and usually adds about nothing useful at all to the topics in the comp forum other than to give folks the chance to be snide.

The leadership of your local club is about 1000 times more important for the quality of your local matches than anything that Bill Wilson has ever done. After the big hoop-de-la, my club decided to hold fewer IDPA matches, and modified the rules to suit our local shooting demographic. We don't turn anybody away due to their equipment and just score them seperately. The only time we are equipment nazis is during state sanctioned matches and since those happen only once in a great while, who cares? We made our local shooters happy.

If you are really so darned offended, shoot another sport (USPSA, steel, 3gun, CAS, or grow your own). If your local club/matches suck, then it is your local club leadership's fault, not Bill Wilsons. Get new club leadership or volunteer yourself.

Get over it already.

August 12, 2005, 10:42 PM
I want to pick up either a Wilson Protector (Professional was incorrect) or a Les Baer PII or TRS. I would like all of your opinions as to which one you think I should get to shoot in IDPA. Class etc.
thanks all

now lets all play nice.... :evil:

Jim Watson
August 12, 2005, 11:18 PM
What's a protector? I don't have a Wilson or Baer and can't tell you what brand to buy. And why should you listen to me? A stranger telling you how to spend $2000? Come on. At those prices they will shoot reliably and accurately... or should.

I want (and have) a full size 5" Government Model with adjustable or high profile fixed rear sight, fibre optic front; mag well funnel; and front strap treatment whether checkering, stippling, tape, or wraparound. Reliable function and decent accuracy.

To quote a usually reliable source (me) all the models you list are .45ACP 1911 derivatives and will be entered in Custom Defensive Pistol division. (You could enter them in ESP and shoot versus 10 shot .38 Supers, but why?)

Your CLASS is how good you do on the Classifier Match, not what brand of gun you shoot.

August 12, 2005, 11:25 PM
because my wife is out with her friends and I get sometime to throw needless words on a white screen.
thanks for your answers, however.

August 13, 2005, 08:50 AM
Well, what I DID do is pick up a new Colt Commander. It ran very well just as it came out of the box. I installed a CMC beavertail, contoured the thumb safety, Wilson magwell and flat mainspring housing, Nowlin trigger, Wilson el-cheapo front strap checkering sheetmetal thing, cleaned up the hammer, disconnector and sear a little, tightened the slide to frame fit, and fitted a match bushing. It still runs very well, in fact it runs as well as anything you can buy, and is easy to shoot. It is also very accurate now, way more accurate than you will need for IDPA. The sights could use an upgrade, but I haven't made up my mind on what to get yet, and it still needs a refinished lower end.

Total cost so far is $645. Having the gun fully hard chromed will be about $200, and the sights will be about $200 for top end tritium adjustables. A little over $1000 for a gun that runs as well as anything on the market, is rediculously accurate, is EXACTLY the way I want it, and in my hands. That is a TALL order, and the route I took is about the only way to get there without another $1000 on top of the first thousand.

I built this gun for CCW and IDPA. If I were going to build a duty gun that also saw some IDPA use I would have built on a 5" Government model, but it would be the same things done to it for the same cost.

If you can't do the work yourself there are still some very good 1911 smiths out there that can do the work for you without charging astronomical prices and making you wait 6 months to a year and a half. I would go this route over a semi-custom gun from Baer or Wilson, but that is just my opinion.

August 13, 2005, 10:41 AM
actually,I did just as you recommended. That is why I am looking for a shooter. Ted Yost has my series 70 and will have it for some time. I still may get another Colt. Bone stock. Just so it will stay a colt. Inside and out.
thanks all

C. H. Luke
August 13, 2005, 03:47 PM
"...searchlight rail."

:what: Gotta remember this one!

"I want to pick up either a Wilson Protector (Professional was incorrect) or a Les Baer PII or TRS."

Have two Wilson's and a Baer PII. My choice is the Baer based both on gun for the $ and overall. This does not mean I think Wilson dosen't make decent 1911's either.

Not Bill Wilson's biggest Fan either but don't think he givss a hoot who's 1911 you shoot in IDPA! He was a millionaire a long time before IDPA was conceived too.

August 13, 2005, 04:04 PM
I have checked the line count at major matches and not seen enough Wilson guns to amount to a week's production.---Jim Watson

Jim Watson, how many guns does Bill Wilson make in a week?



Billy Sparks
August 13, 2005, 04:13 PM
To try desperately to drag this thread back on track. I have never owned a Wilson did shot one. I did own a Les Baer (I think it was a Premier II). Both guns were scarily accurate but so tight it was hard to break down or put back together. Unless you have your heart set on a Wilson or a Baer take a look at Colt or Kimber you can buy just as nice a pistol. With your savings you can buy yourself a lot of magazines. Which by the way I think mags are sometimes more important than the pistols.

Jim Watson
August 13, 2005, 06:29 PM

Latest information I could find, Wilson made 2255 guns in 2003 which is an average of 43 a week, assuming they don't have a shop turnaround or combined vacation. There were 23 Wilson guns at the 2003 Nationals out of about 335 shooters.

And re getting back on track; take a look at the Nighthawk guns made by ex-Wilson employees. I figure they are trying extra hard to get established in competiton with their old boss and are probably turning out some good work.

August 13, 2005, 07:19 PM
anyone have experence or a recommendation on the NightHawks?
I really appreciate all the feedback.

August 14, 2005, 04:44 PM
Jim Watson,

Good data!!! I didn't think you'd have it!:)

23 Wilson's is just under 7% of the total shooters at that Nationals (the nationals, although the largest, is only one of thousands of matches). I would guess that 7% is a higher % of Wilson owners then we would see nationally in IDPA.

If 5% of this year's membership owned Wilsons then we are talking about a good part of a years production of Wilson handguns (500 per 10k members, although bought over years). That has got to be a lot of money!

Further, I would have to think if we totaled all the Wilsons owned by IDPA members, both past and present, we'd have a very significant number of Wilson handguns with a high dollar value.

I've got to think that IDPA, with it's 8 round 45ACP only CDP division (which just happens to be the major caliber and capacity of Wilson Combat's 1911 platform) is at least in part a marketing tool for Wilson Combat handguns.

What's NightHawk! Do you have a link?



Jim Watson
August 14, 2005, 05:09 PM
Read about Nighthawk at

I have NOT seen one in person and am NOT recommending them except as something to look at.

I do think the guys could have come up with their own trademark instead of cloning Wilson's eagle.

Tim Burke
August 14, 2005, 06:11 PM
I've handled and shot 2 or 3 Nighthawks. They were nice guns, and seemed very comparable to Wilson's guns. Prices seemed comparable, too.

August 14, 2005, 07:10 PM
Interesting, No comments really on Baers. Thanks for the Heads up on NH's and Wilsons. I pretty much figured that IDPA members shot Wilsons for fun and Colts for business.
That is only when I speak of 1911's
thanks again all.

August 14, 2005, 07:25 PM
Jim Watson,

Thanks for the link!



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