[RobW]

In a discussion over the Iraq-war, a German friend said that Dubya and D. Rumsfeld were draft-dodgers because of the Viet Nam war.

As far as I know, Dubya was a pilot in the National Guard during this time, I know nothing about D. Rumsfeld.

May be they mixed it up with W.J. Clinton and A. Gore?

Someone can tell me? Sources? :confused:

[CZ-75]

Rumsfeld served as a Naval Aviator in the mid to late 50s.

[cuchulainn]

http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/rumsfeld.html

Mr. Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on academic and NROTC scholarships (A.B., 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Captain in 1989.

[TallPine]

Yeah, they "dodged" the draft by volunteering.

Geez ...... :rolleyes:

[jmbg29]

G.W. Bush and D. Rumsfeld draft-dodgers? :uhoh: :barf: Yeah, they "dodged" the draft by volunteering. :D

I must be an extremely horrible example. I volunteered to join the Navy when there wasn't even a draft!!!!

I'm so ashamed.:p ;) :evil:



Oh, and :cuss: Germany!!!!!! And the pig :cuss:ing French while we are at it!!!!!!!!

[Porter Rockwell]

I've read that Clinton was drafted and skipped the country and a warrant was issued tha was later dismissed by gerald ford.
I've also read that President Bush was reported AWOL from his Guard assignment and had his flying licence pulled after missing several mandated physical checks.
Bush Jr has an interesting but expected history being the number 1 Tejas party animal and as son of a President and CIA Director (does anyone really know which position is the more powerful?)
George Jr was destined for power.
The Bush family like the Kennedys have held political power since the early 1900s.
Some websites claim to prove the Bush Clan are bloodine to the British Crown, Daddy has been Knighted ya know?

[Mike Irwin]

And your TRUE point is, Porter?

Or is this just another 'giant conspiracy' yawn festival?

[Tamara]

Although Vietnam was a major sideshow during the late '60s-early '70s, flying an F-102 Delta Dart in that time period was being in the forefront of national defense.

See, there was this other country at the time who had some really big bombers with bombs and standoff missiles and other stuff that wanted to hurt us. The pilots who guarded the airspace of CONUS were definitely serving their country.

[Mike Irwin]

Very true, Tamara.

One of my coworkers enlisted in the Air Force in 1964, and was never assigned outside of the United States.

He booted in 1968 after his term was up.

Is he some sort of draft dodger because he never left the United States during the hottest period of the Vietnam war?

[DaveB]

None of these were written by Bush fans, but they're pretty much in agreement.

http://www.talion.com/georgebush.html

http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/One_year_gap_in_Bush_s_Guard_duty+.shtml

http://www.awolbush.com/

http://slate.msn.com/id/31711/

http://www.kstatecollegian.com/issues/v105/fa/n030/opinion/opn.welch.html

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/Intro.htm

Make up your own minds.

db

[Coronach]

Yeah, and my dad was a draft dodger for joining the navy in the 60s, I suppose.

:rolleyes:

Mike

[Blackhawk]

Thanks, Tamara. You said it well.

Being a Naval Aviator has never been a good danger avoidance choice either.... :rolleyes:

[Mike Irwin]

I LOVE how that second link categorizes Ronald Reagan as being paramount to a draft dodger, saying his preferred assignment was Hollywood.

That site loses all credibility for that fact alone.

Reagan requested, several times, assignment to combat units, and every time was turned down, but served in the United States Army and attained the rank of Captain.


It's VERY evident that this site, the "Chicken Hawker," is nothing more than a liberal screed of the highest proportions.

Categorizing Frank Sinatra as a Chickenhawk is also disingenuous. It even lists the reason Sinatra was 4F -- a punctured ear drum.

[Mike Irwin]

Since we're rehashing Bush's service record, though, this old question comes up...

Has anyone ever determined how and why Al Gore managed to get out of Vietnam after only 5 months of a 12-month tour of duty?

Wouldn't have anything to do with political influence now, would it?

Nah, his old man was just a chump change Senator...

[Mike Irwin]

One last thought.

I never served in the military. Even if I HAD been in the military, it's likely that I would not have served at any time when US troops were deployed in anything even remotely resembling combat operations.

If I go into public office, I'm sure that will be held against me.

One BIG question, though, is what does a person's military service record have to do with his ability as an overall leader, or his willingness to use the military in times of necessity?

Not one goddamned thing, if you ask me.

[Blackhawk]

Not one goddamned thing, if you ask me.A LOT, if you ask me.

To be a good leader, you must first be a good follower. The military teaches that to everybody.

Military service improves the leadership skills of those who have military experience, and it inculcates leadership skills into those who never previously had or demonstrated any.

Most importantly, military experience teaches the law of unintended consequences through practical applications, something many in leadership positions don't always understand.

None of this is to say that military experience is necessary to be a good leader. It just says that a good leader will become a better leader through U.S. military service.

[Porter Rockwell]

What time period would that be?
America has had many small wars btw, so I gather you made a conscious choice not to serve in the military?
I regret your use of the word conspiracy so as to sway the readers to form some tinfoil opinions.
Are not American General Officers 'conspiring" to win the Iraq conflict?
Conspiracy in a way of life for governments is it not?
What's Al Gore got to do with this? I didn't vote for him, I wnder tho if he wouldn't have invaded Iraq also what with his solid connections to Occidental Oil etc.
Corporations, banks and lawyers run the world IMO Mike, we're simply pawns in a worldwide chess game.
Have you noticed how many sons and daughters of our elected representatives are active military?
Best!

[jmbg29]

we're simply pawns in a worldwide chess gamePoor little us. Boohoohoo :rolleyes: :barf:

[Sir Galahad]

Let's see....FDR led this nation in WW2 but never served in the military. Abraham Lincoln led this nation in the Civil War and he never served in the military. Alexander the Great was an unblooded lad when he began his conquest of much of the world beginning in Macedonia.

Now, to be fair, let's look at some famous leaders in history who served in their militaries: Adolf Hitler, Napoleon, the Kaiser....shall I go on?

This is not ancient Sparta where one has to serve militarily to speak, vote, or lead. The Founding Fathers made this so for a reason. I agree; most of the time, military service creates good leaders. Some of the time, it doesn't. Look at Rangel. He served in the military. So did Jimmy Carter. And I think Daschle did, too. :barf:

[Powderman]

Oh, and :cuss: Germany!!!!!! And the pig :cuss: ing French while we are at it!!!!!!!!


snicker, snicker, roflmao!!!!

Very well said!

[JoeSF]

"Abraham Lincoln led this nation in the Civil War and he never served in the military."


Abraham Lincoln’s Military Service
During the Black Hawk War, 1832—

By Robert A. Braun

http://www.geocities.com/old_lead/abe.htm

....."During the Black Hawk War, Abraham Lincoln of New Salem, Illinois served three enlistments. Each enrollment lasted for approximately 30 days."

[bad_dad_brad]

Just because it is "on the internet" does not make it true.

GWB was in the Air National Guard. He flew in high performance jets. Beyond that I can not comment. Al Gore went to Vietnam, but beyond that, I can not comment. Do not sulley GHWB's record however.

GHWB was a naval combat pilot in WWII that was shot down while flying during a combat mission. His sacrifice was no less than JFK's in PT109. Both men put their lives in harms way for their country. They might have gone into the war for political reasons, but they were shot at and almost killed nevertheless.

[Mike Irwin]

"Military service improves the leadership skills..."

Without a doubt it can.

So can many other forms of service.

Am I totally negating the importance of military service? No.

Am I saying, however, that military service should be the sole and complete arbiter of one's qualifications to lead, or a point for battering the ever-loving crap out of your political opponent to the point of ignoring just about every other aspect of the individual's life and experience? No.

[Mike Irwin]

"America has had many small wars btw, so I gather you made a conscious choice not to serve in the military?"

No.

I broke my back my sophomore year and have permanent nerve damage and a failing left hip. When I discussed that with the Navy rep. at my college, he said the liklihood of my being accepted was next to none in the middle 1980s.

But, you're right, I likely would have been in service during the Panama Incursion in 1989.

[Mike Irwin]

Brad,

Remember some of the vitriol directed at Bush Senior during his second race about his military service?

That he "abandoned" his two wounded crew members, leaving them to die in the South Pacific?

[Blackhawk]

Am I saying, however, that military service should be the sole and complete arbiter of one's qualifications to lead, or a point for battering the ever-loving crap out of your political opponent to the point of ignoring just about every other aspect of the individual's life and experience? No.
Corrrect! :D

[JoeSF]

Flying an aircraft in the national guard, being a reporter in the Army. At least they served. Accidents in live fire training are as deadly as the real thing.
I don't think a person needs to have been in the service to be commander and chief. Going out of ones way to avoid serving is a different matter. That person is unfit to be commander and chief as far as I am concerned. Those people can try for the senate or commentary on 60 minutes. Who knows maybe they will get to debate a distinguished veteran?

[Zander]

Has anyone ever determined how and why Al Gore managed to get out of Vietnam after only 5 months of a 12-month tour of duty?Sure...it's a matter of record. His old man was facing a tough reelection campaign here in Tennessee and arranged for Al, Jr. to "volunteer" so that he could claim that his son was willing to go in harm's way. Sonny carried a camera in 'Nam and was assigned a babysitter so that he wouldn't wander into harm's way.

In spite of his daddy's wishes [Al, Sr. was a crook who scammed the public by selling the same breeding stock at the family's Carthage farm over and over to avoid the campaign contribution laws of his era], there is the famous photo of Al "no controlling legal authority" Jr. staring down the barrel of his M-16 in a rear area where he was kept out of harm's way. Like father, like son.

His daddy arranged an early exit from Viet-Nam for Junior so that he could come home and attend Divinity School at Vanderbilt...where he promptly flunked out.

His avoidance of service doesn't approach that of the criminal draft-dodging of William Jefferson Blythe Clinton, but it is reprehensible nonetheless.

When you get right down to it, Algore just isn't that bright...in spite of the fact that he was raised in a hotel in downtown DC, attended the best and most prestigious private school in the area, and partied his way through his daddy's choice of Ivy League university.

Al Gore, Jr. was raised to be the president of the US; how fortunate we are that he'll never achieve his daddy's fondest hope.

Now, if we could only get Little Billy Blythe to follow Junior's lead: STFU and STFD...that would be most excellent!

[Mike Irwin]

"there is the famous photo of Al "no controlling legal authority" Jr. staring down the barrel of his M-16 in a rear area where he was kept out of harm's way."

I don't think that picture was taken anywhere NEAR Vietnam, Zander.

Why?

It appears that Mr. Gore has equipment and clothing issued for temperate climates.

Wearing that stuff he'd likely die of heat stroke within a short period of time...

[ahadams]

uh, guys, as far as I can tell those Delta Darts in the ANG had one primary purpose - to run at the Russian bombers and survive long enough to get locks on them with air to air missiles. Not a job for a pacifist since if it came down to them there *wasn't* likely to be anybody to run home to.

Also, Dubya's dad was a combat pilot. when it comes to folks like that, I will *only* listen to criticism from someone who can prove they have as much or more combat experience as the one they're criticizing.

[Tom B]

Anyone who was of military age and subject to the draft during the Vietnam war already knows the answer to these questions. Clearly some posters on this thread were not.

[Zander]

I don't think that picture was taken anywhere NEAR Vietnam, Zander.You could be right, Mike. Doesn't change the facts re: his Viet-Nam "service", however...

[Mike Irwin]

No, but it certainly doesn't support the picture's implication, that he was reporting from the field in full combat kit.

[roscoe]

Also, Dubya's dad was a combat pilot. when it comes to folks like that, I will *only* listen to criticism from someone who can prove they have as much or more combat experience as the one they're criticizing.

In Bush's case, that means virtually anybody, since he nas NO combat experience.

And the reason people think of Bush as a draft dodger is that he used family connections to get a stateside position that would exempt him from actual combat. There was a waiting list of 100,000 to get those National Guard positions, and he scored in the 25% on the pilot's aptitude exam, the lowest possible passing grade. Yet somehow, he got in. Could it be that it was because the speaker of the Texas house called the head of the Texas Air National Guard on his hehalf? Naahh!

And I wonder why he has refused to release his miitary records, unlike McCaine, Gore, and, yes, even Clinton.

And, not to mention a little 18-month period when he failed to show up for assignment, once he had been grounded for failing his physical.

And don't even get me started on Cheney, who had FIVE deferments.

McCaine, Powell, John Kerry, those guys have a legitimate claim, in my book, but certainly not Bush or the VP.

[Blackhawk]

In Bush's case, that means virtually anybody, since he nas NO combat experience.Really, Roscoe? He flew patrols, and do YOU know how the flights were classified? I don't, but since you made a dogmatic statement, I figured you must.

Have you seen his DD759?

In Vietnam, each of my flights was classified as administrative, maintenance, training, or combat depending on the purpose of the flight. Obviously, flitting around looking for or engaging guys with guns were combat flights, but the flights were classified by operations, not the pilot.And the reason people think of Bush as a draft dodger is that he used family connections to get a stateside position that would exempt him from actual combat.What's your source on that, Roscoe? I've seen that allegation authoritatively refuted several times, but maybe I haven't seen the "credible source" you're privy to either.There was a waiting list of 100,000 to get those National Guard positions, and he scored in the 25% on the pilot's aptitude exam, the lowest possible passing grade. Yet somehow, he got in. On that, you just plain don't know what you're talking about, Roscoe.And I wonder why he has refused to release his miitary records, unlike McCaine, Gore, and, yes, even Clinton.Because he has a right to privacy, and BTW, Clinton doesn't HAVE any military records. :rolleyes: And, not to mention a little 18-month period when he failed to show up for assignment, once he had been grounded for failing his physical.More BS, Roscoe. Don't you even bother to research what you post as fact?And don't even get me started on Cheney, who had FIVE deferments.Lessee, during my first 4 years of college, I guess I had EIGHT student deferments since there was one per semester. Then I got drafted. Cheney went to grad school, and I believe he was married too. Either a student deferment or a marriage deferment was good to keep you out of the draft. So what? Do you have a problem with people taking advantage of the rights they have, hmmmm?McCaine, Powell, John Kerry, those guys have a legitimate claim, in my book, but certainly not Bush or the VP.Your book? Your book has zero credibility based on these few excerpts from it, but I'm curious. Is your real name Michael Belliseles or something like that? :p

[Pilgrim]

"Military service improves the leadership skills..."
So can many other forms of service.
But do other forms of service demand that you become a leader as part of your job description like the military does?

[cuchulainn]

Jimmy Carter had a lot more military experience than Ronald Reagan.

[roscoe]

My sources:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

[Mike Irwin]

"But do other forms of service demand that you become a leader as part of your job description like the military does?"

My job descriptions from several employers certainly have.

[Mike Irwin]

"Jimmy Carter had a lot more military experience than Ronald Reagan."

Well, depends on what you mean be a lot more...

Carter attended Annapolis from 1943-1946, graduated in the top 10% of his class. No doubt, he's an intelligent man.

Served in submarines, served on Capt. Hyman Rickover's staff developing nuke boats.

Resigned his commission in 1953 due to the death of his father and the need to head the family business.

Solid military service, probably would have risen to high rank, possibly even Flag Rank, had he remained in the Navy.


Reagan joined the Army's Enlisted Reserve Corps at Des Moines, Iowa on April 29, 1937 as a private in Troop B, 322d Cavalry.

On May 25, 1937 he was appointed a second lieutenant in the Officers' Reserve Corps of the Cavalry and on June 18, 1937, he accepted his officer's commission.

April 19, 1942, Lt. Reagan went on active duty, but was classified as limited service due to his eyesight. Limited service means you don't get to serve overseas, you don't get to see combat.

His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation, Fort Mason, Cal., as Liaison Officer of the Port and Transportation Office, but was quickly reassigned when Warner Brothers began development of propaganda and morale boosting films, which resulted in Reagan transferring from the Cavalry to the Army Air Force.

After numerous duty posts, and despite several requests for overseas assignments, Reagan, a Captain, was separated from the service in December 1945.

One interesting thing about Reagan... Despite his regularly assigned duties, he repeatedly volunteered to do voice overs and assist in the production of AAF training films.

He was, in 1945, recommended for promotion after a written letter of commodation by Hap Arnold, but wasn't promoted because no billets for majors were avilable.

His status in the Officer's reserve was terminated in 1953 when he apparently hit the age cutoffs for reserve Captains.

Of course, both men served as Commander in Chief, Carter for 4 years, Reagan for 8.

Given time in service, I'd say that their military careers were actually similar.

[Blackhawk]

My sources:One of the first hit pieces in the Washington Post when it looked like GWB might be a presidential contender? And you didn't bother checking out any of the follow up articles debunking the "points" in the article?

Those failings are excusable, Roscoe, and I apologize for any aspersions I cast on your credibility.

However, the WP is shamefully partsian, and was especially so during the end of the Clinton years.

The New York Times is also a source for biased articles impugning Bush.

In any event, your source article has no more credibility on the facts than CNN and its "Tailwind" article by Peter Arnett.

You might find it interesting to do your own "fact checking" on the WP article.

[buzz_knox]

I've always thought the Gore photo looked an awful lot like some Tennessee scenery to me. Can anyone tell in that photo if the rifle is an M-16 or just a civilian AR-15?

[Blackhawk]

Excellent review of Reagan's military service, Mike! :D

I don't agree with the glowing predictions of a military career for Jimmy Carter, however. Based on his tendency to micromanage and fret over the details after he had already delegated the imperatives, I wonder if he learned anything about leadership!

A friend of mine was a contemporary of Carter, and he retired as an Admiral. His opinion of working as a subordinate to Hyman Rickover was interesting. Rickover's style was more like "stick and stick" instead of "stick and carrot." Rickover was a technical and design genius who knew how to get the job done expeditiously, but he apparently wasn't one who could inspire his underlings to eagerly follow him right into hell itself.

As you said, military service isn't required to be a good leader, and conversely, military service doesn't automatically mean a person has developed leadership skills.

[moa]

Trying to avoid the draft during the Vietnam War was epidemic. A lot of guys hid out in college, got married, fled to Canada, etc. Many tried to join the National Guard or Reserves. I tried the Guard, but could not get in before I got drafted.

I wanted to avoid the draft because I followed President Johnson's speechs. One in particular I remember reading around December 1965 was that the USA was not "seeking a military victory" in Vietnam. What!

My reaction: "Oh hell, another no win war like the Korean War". No victory, just stalement. I was wrong though. Vietnam became a defeat.

Now we know that Johnson realized as early as February 1965 that victory was impossible in Vietnam with the way the war was being conducted, but Johnson kept on escalating and the purposeless killing went on and on for another ten years or so.

[Mike Irwin]

Blackhawk,

"Based on his tendency to
micromanage and fret over the details after he had already delegated the imperatives, I wonder if he learned
anything about leadership!"

You've just described Carter's mentor, Adm. Hyman Rickover, to a T.

Rickover was a HIGHLY successful "delegational micromanager." He wasn't popular, but almost every one describes him as effective.

I think Carter would have made a good, and high-ranking, Navy Officer.

[jmbg29]

There was a waiting list of 100,000 to get those National Guard positions, and he scored in the 25% on the pilot's aptitude exam, the lowest possible passing grade. I thought that the Skull and Bones/Illuminati/Builderberger/Star Chamber/C.I.A. Spook/New World Order conspirators were supposed to be smart? :confused:

You are saying that in order to protect their progeny, the Skull and Bones/Illuminati/Builderberger/Star Chamber/C.I.A. Spook/New World Order conspirator types use their connections to have the:Speaker of the Texas house called the head of the Texas Air National Guard on his hehalfIn order for said progeny to engage in one of the world's most unforgiving disciplines i.e. FLYING FIGHTER JETS!!! Thereby limiting the danger said progeny might otherwise face.

You expect people to take this position seriously? :confused: :scrutiny: :uhoh: :barf:

As soon as I wipe up the vomit, I'll be LMFAO! :rolleyes:

[Don Gwinn]

There was a waiting list of 100,000 to get into those ANG positions. . . .

That must have been a Texas thing. . . . or a pilot thing. My father went into the Illinois Air National Guard in 1971. There was a waiting list, but it wasn't 100,000--maybe 100 at most. Dad got the position because he was willing to go to boot at a time that guaranteed he wouldn't be home for either Thanksgiving or Christmas--plus he scored well on an aptitude test.
It was either that or guaranteed draft and Vietnam. Dad had only been married for two months. He would have gone if called, but he preferred to serve here. It's probably just as well--the way I hear it, he only passed boot because the state of Illinois never paid for anyone to go back through. Dad's a good man, but he's not a soldier.

[Blackhawk]

Rickover was a HIGHLY successful "delegational micromanager." He wasn't popular, but almost every one describes him as effective.

I think Carter would have made a good, and high-ranking, Navy Officer.Reason I don't is that Carter lacked (still does) the absolute soulless ruthlessness that goes along with a strong sense of mission along with the inability to doubt his own judgment. Carter is way too introspective to be worth anything as a leader. He's a guy who's afraid of a rabbit in a flood but can be totally suckered by a bellicose jerk like Kim of NK.

[Mike Irwin]

Blackhawk,

One hardly requires an overabundance of ruthlessness to head military procurement, development, logistical, or testing projects.

That certainly is a quality that is often admirable in a combat commander, someone who will take forces into harm's way, but becomes less clear an advantage for myriad other positions held by high-ranking officers.

I've been fortunate to meet, and even know, quite a few current and retired Generals and Admirals. Some have that ruthlessness -- those were the ones who were ship drivers or aviators.

Those who didn't were the administrators, supply corps, heading training commands, etc.

One man with whom I worked -- a vice admiral, IIRC -- controlled procurement and supply for all American surface forces in the Atlantic. A nicer person couldn't be found but, as with many military officers, a SERIOUS micromanager.

Military-style micromanage was one of the biggest reasons why I never fit into the structure at Navy Federal Credit Union, where I worked for almost 4 years. The place dripped retired brass at upper level management positions... retired brass that would demand input at virtually EVERY level of a project.

I really never thought I'd see a retired 3-star Admiral read every ROUGH draft of every project I ever did for his group -- but he did. And that was pretty common across the different divisions in the credit union.

The only division head who wanted only to see the finished product? The head of mortgage, who was a civilian.

[roscoe]

Wow, this sure has provoked a lot of ad hominem retorts.

But, so far, no one has offered a specific refutation of this quote from the AP:

AUSTIN, Texas –– The former speaker of the Texas House of Representatives acknowledged Monday that he called the head of the Texas Air National Guard in 1968 to recommend George W. Bush for a pilot slot during the Vietnam War.

Now, he says that the request came from a close friend of the Bush family, not GHW Bush (Sid Adger). OK, fine, you can draw your own conclusions.

I don't fault GW Bush for going into the ANG, or for not wanting to go to Vietnam. In fact, I think that it is irrelevant to his presidency, as long as he does not make any special claims because of it. But, it does bother me that, like a lot of young people with connections, he was able to avoid putting himself in someone's crosshairs, while the poor of Texas were not.

And, Blackhawk, if his missions for the ANG were classified as combat, it would surprise me, but if they were it was not because he was actually in combat. As for his not serving for an 18-month period, I have seen nothing to change my opinion of that.

You argue that my sources are suspect, but are you suggesting that I should not trust the Boston Globe, the AP, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the Birmingham News, and the LA Times? I mean, sure, the liberal media, and all that, but let's be real.

If you have material contradicting this information, I am open to it, but the Boston Globe stories were pretty comprehensive and convincing.

jmbg29, there is nothing to suggest some super conspiracy at work. Really, that is a straw man argument if I ever saw one. A rich young man wanted to fly fast jets, and it was made easier for him. Not surprising, really.

This has been an interesting thread, mainly for the anger it has clearly provoked. Just try to keep the arguments on the facts, folks. Insulting me won't help.

[Blackhawk]

Mike, it sounds to me like you're associating military rank more with leadership skills instead of political and managerial skills.

You might find it fun to attribute those three characteristics in order to the higher ranking military figures you know of. For example:

Dwight Eisenhower:
1. Manager
2. Politician
3. Leader

George Patton:
1. Leader
2. Manager
3. Politician

Hyman Rickover:
1. Manager
2. Politician
3. Leader

Without you ever having been in the military, I'll bet you end up concluding that ones like Patton were exceptions to the rule that leadership is seldom the predominant characteristic of those with high military rank. :D

[Mike Irwin]

Blackhawk,

And with all due respect, it certainly appeared that you were consider ruthlessness to be the only factor required for a successful, effective, military leader.

"Without you ever having been in the military, I'll bet you end up concluding that ones like Patton were exceptions to the rule that leadership is seldom the predominant characteristic of those with high military rank."

Absolutely not. Leadership is really a catch-all phrase that defies a single, hard definition, and includes many other traits besides ruthlessness. Leadership attributes can vary dramatically from one effective leader to the next -- Patton's bombast, MacArthur's imperiousness, Bradley's fatherly style, or Ridgeway's dogged determination, for example.

All 4 are recognized leaders of the highest caliber. All had a certain amount of ruthlessness necessary for combat commanders.

But at the same time you have highly effective leaders such as Eisenhower, Nimitz, and Marshall, whose leadership capabilities were expressed in ways other than ruthlessness.

You also have men whose leadership skills were, at best, questionable, but whose contributions to the military structure are unquestioned. Ernest King springs immediately to mind. Few people ever felt anything even remotely resembling loyalty to King, but his success as CIC of the Navy in WW II can't really be questioned.

As I've tried to point out, though, those who lack the ruthlessness that you claim was lacking in Carter often prospered in other roles.

Gen. Leslie Groves, for example. Not really well liked, not very ruthless, but an excellent administrator who was able to coordinate two of the largest military development projects up to that point -- construction of the Pentagon and the Manhattan Project, which required someone who was able to bridge the gap between military and civilian personnel.

Throw, for example, King into the Manhattan Project. It's likely that with his leadership style the project never would have gotten off the ground because the scientists who were instrumental to the project probably would have revolted.

I do, however, have to quibble with your ranking of Eisenhower. I'd flip characteristics 2 and 3 for him.

[Blackhawk]

You're right, Mike. Ruthlessness is the wrong word for what I mean. It way overstates the characteristic I'm trying to describe. I used in it in combination with a strong sense of mission and confidence. It certainly doesn't stand alone.

Political skills in the military have little to do with dealing with any constituency. They're more commonly called by the misnomer "people skills." To deal with characters like Montgomery and Patton, Ike had to be a very skillful politician -- a trait he showed very early in his career.

[Tom B]

Well stated roscoe. As I alluded to earlier those of us that were in the military or of draft age during that time period know full well the National Guard or draft classification situation of the era. We don't need to be refered to some article. We also know the origins/causes of insults with regards to topics such as this.

[jmbg29]

jmbg29, there is nothing to suggest some super conspiracy at work. Really, that is a straw man argument if I ever saw one. A rich young man wanted to fly fast jets, and it was made easier for him. Not surprising, really.All I really see in your argument is a lot of envy.

Being drafted = one great big rise in the amount of peril one could expect to face.

Flying fighter jets = one great big rise in the amount of peril one could expect to face.

You say that G.W.B. tested in the bottom 25% for apptitude, and yet you know this despite the fact that you say that his records are sealed. You also claim that his "rich" (there is that envy again) parent(s)/family was/were trying to protect him.

One would think that they could have done a better job of it, other than to send a dunce with low apptitude up in the most unstable, ergo most manueverable planes, known to man.

Perhaps though, they held that favor in abeyance with the foreknowledge that they would need that chip to bail him out of 18 months of being a deserter.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I would give this conspiracy theory a B minus.

Most of them do a much better job of wrapping themselves around the axle. :rolleyes:

[roscoe]

Being drafted = one great big rise in the amount of peril one could expect to face.
Flying fighter jets = one great big rise in the amount of peril one could expect to face.

Are you suggesting that being a fighter pilot is like being a foot soldier? I don't quite think that the transitive property quite applies here. It is also dangerous to work high steel, or be a timber worker, but where is the connection? Competition for those pilot's positions is quite a bit stronger than for the infantryman's position, and the perks are commeasurate.

And I think you hit on the problem:
One would think that they could have done a better job of it, other than to send a dunce with low apptitude up in the most unstable, ergo most manueverable planes, known to man.

although I think dunce is a bit strong. Anyway, I don't see any axle-wrapping around here, nor has any evidence I have alluded to been specifically refuted.

And envy? Where did you get that? You are assuming an awful lot about me.

[jmbg29]

Are you suggesting that being a fighter pilot is like being a foot soldier?Are you suggesting that everyone that is drafted becomes a foot soldier?

As for those who are drafted that do become a foot soldier, I offer only this, you should have volunteered.And envy? Where did you get that? You are assuming an awful lot about me.No need for assumption, you speak plainly enough.A rich young man wanted to fly fast jets, and it was made easier for him. Not surprising, really.

________________________________________I don't see any axle-wrapping around here, nor has any evidence I have alluded to been specifically refuted.You don't see the conflict between saying that the "records" remain unreleased, and yet, citing the very same unreleased records to make your point? If the answer to that question is no, then I can't help you.

Produce the documents, not the opinions of urinalists in the media. Show me the records of his apptitude tests. I can produce the records of all of my military tests and schooling. Show me the record of G.W.B.'s A.W.O.L./desertion and the result of his Court Martial for that offense.

Go ahead. Show me.

[roscoe]

I reckon this discussion has about run its course.

But I will just say that either all the newspaper reporters, including those at AP, the NY Times, Boston Globe, and Washington Post are liars,

or

all the sources, including former Texas ANG officers (one being Major General Bobby W. Hodges, Bush's commanding officer, another being retired General William Turnipseed), and the former speaker of the Texas House of Representatives, are liars, for this story to be untrue (they are also the source of your 'conflict'). I am open to that possibility, but I have yet to see any evidence. That would be quite a conspiracy.

Whatever the relevance of your military record might be, the sticking point is that GW Bush refuses to release his.

You can, of course, believe whatever you wish, but I am unwilling to reject all that information without good reason.

[jmbg29]

Major General Bobby W. Hodges, Bush's commanding officer, another being retired General William TurnipseedIf they are saying what you and others claim they do, then they are admitting to dereliction of duty.

I find that impossible to believe. Then again, I don't have a Hollywood view of the military.

[Angus MacDuff]

If you look at all the facts one thing is clear. His Dad got him off any duty and likely told him how to avoid any action or duty demands. The average Joe would be busted for being AWOL. But having a powerful Dad has made life pretty easy for George Jr.

I think if GWB had spent any time in Vietnam, we would not be seeing such a hawkish President.

Point of Order, Al Gore served our country, GWB served himself!

[Mike Irwin]

"Point of Order, Al Gore served our country, GWB served himself!"

By having his father get him out of his cushy Vietnam assignment 7 months before his tour of duty was up?

Wow.

Looks like George Bush wasn't the only one to have a powerful father in a high place....

If that qualifies as service... :rolleyes: