[pax]

Okay, I gots me a 13-year-old kid who wants to hunt. He's got a friend with a nice plot of land where there are "too many" elk.

I haven't been hunting myself since I was about that age, and barely remember most details. Plus we hunted deer rather than elk. So I'm a little lost.

I think I can get through the bureaucracy all right -- not for this season, I don't think, but for next year. We'll get him (and me) through a hunter's safety class and all that.

The problem is, well ...

What gun do I suggest he save up for?

Up 'til now, he's shot .22 rifles and a variety of handguns. He hasn't handled a shotgun and he's only fired a .223 a couple of times. I have reason to believe he'd do just fine with anything I hand him, but am just not sure where to start here.

Suggestions?

pax

[Powderman]

For elk?

Smallest I'd personally recommend would be a good bolt action .30-06, with 180 grain soft point bullets.

.300 Win Mag would probably be a better choice. Loaded with 180 or 200 grain bullets, it's potent elk medicine. You WILL trade off for stiff recoil, however.

The most important part is to make the shot count--especially if you choose the .30-06. Tell him to take the shot at a reasonable range--200 yards in. And, get him to the range with the rifle and a good scope. It helps to have a friend that reloads if you do not yourself. Get some bullets of the same weight and type, and have him practice incessantly, until he can put 5 rounds into a 4 inch circle at 200 yards.

Good luck, and good hunting! Elk steak and burger tastes mighty fine over open coals, on a warm night in the woods. :)

[JSR]

I'v taken all but two( those with a 300 Win Mag) with an .06 and 168 gr bullets. They'r not armor plated,as with any type of hunting,shot placement is the key to making a quick humane kill. I'd sugest a 30.06 with a 150/168 gr Barnes Triple Shock or a 165 gr Nosler Partition and a LOT of practice. The magnums can be intimidating and punishing to even experienced hunters/shooters,more so to a 13-14 year old. Your seasons probably run somewhat the same as ORs,maybe he can get a deer season under his belt before the elk hunt. Hope he gets one and most of all-has fun and wants to do it again! :)

[ACP230]

How big is he?

My 13-year-old is fairly small for his age, but he shoots a Remington 788 in .308. He'll be hunting deer with it next year. The 788 is relatively powerful and not too heavy for him to haul around the woods. I'd hesitate about letting him shoot a .300 Magnum right now, however.

Lots of elk have been killed with calibers smaller than the .30-06. Jack O'Connor killed a bunch with the .270 and I've read of someone's grandma taking them with a .257 Robers. Shot placement is extremely important, of course. Better no shot taken, on any game animal than a bad shot.

I don't think I'd go below the .308 in power. That leaves a lot of room and a lot of guns.

He could start out with reduced recoil ammo or light handloads, get a lot of practice, and move up to full power loads in time for next season.

[dakotasin]

i know a feller that gets his elk w/ a 25-06 about every year... however, i think the best answer here for a youth is to get him the biggest gun he can handle and shoot well. most kids shouldn't have any trouble handling a 308, which is the smallest i would personally ever reccomend.

if you are a handloader, a 7 rem mag is probably ideal, and at one time was professed to be the greatest long range elk cartridge available. my 338 win mag is far more pleasant to shoot than any of my 30 cal mags - so, i would strongly reccomend against a 30 magnum.

so, my reccomendations: 1- 7 rem mag, 2- 308 win, 3- 280 rem, 4- 30-06...
specific rifle reccomendations: 1- rem 700, 2- win 70, 3- ruger 77 tang safety, 4- ruger 77.

in either case, when you shop for a gun for him, please do him a favor and avoid the wood-stocked savages. these guns kick harder than their chambering indicates - much harder. also, avoid the rem 721 because these guns weren't really designed around scope use, and as such, there is quite a bit of drop in the stock, which makes it hard to shoot well. and, spend the $30 bucks on a pachymar decelerator or sims pad, and give the 'smith the $20 to have the stock cut to fit. best way to turn off a new shooter/hunter is to make them shoot something that is uncomfortabel because of fit. if the gun fits right, there is far less felt recoil.

edit: btw, of the guns on my reccomended list, ruger 77 tang safety's are about the least expensive around these parts, running in the $325 range. local gun shop has a 7 rem mag on the shelf for $300 that i've been eyeballing really hard (would be my 4th 7 rem mag, but, hey, can never have too many 7 rem mags around), and if it wasn't for that durned sako in 375 h&h i think i'd have that ruger...

[pax]

Good info. Thanks, guys.

pax

[sumpnz]

The 6.5x55 Swede is a heck of hunting round. I'm working up some 140gr Barnes XLC bullets for mine for cow elk hunting. Recoil is less than even a .270 but it (supposedly) kills out of all proportion to it's paper performance. If you stick with factory loads, I believe S&B loads those same XLC bullets though at a couple hundred fps less than you can easily get handloading.

There's a number of affordable modern sporter rifles in that caliber including CZ550, Winchester M70, and I think some Tikka, and Remington rifles (and possibly Ruger but I'm not sure). Prices, new, will range from about $450-800 depending on which brand and who you buy it from.

[stevelyn]

More meese and bears fall to a .30-06 up here every year than any other caliber. I suspect it'll be more than adaquate for an elk. Since he's 13 and won't be able to hunt before next year, he'll be another year older and bigger.

[mete]

He should spend that time seriously practicing .As to Cartridge I would suggest a 30-06.

[pcf]

There's a difference between what works and what people have used with success. I remember reading an old issue of Shoooting Times where Larry Weishuhn espoused that one of his 7mm magnum was an "adequate" but not ideal elk rifle. The next issue he was raving how the TC Encore in .308 was the best elk hunting handgun he had ever used. .308 Win out of a pistol at 125 yards, perfect. 7mm Mag at 200 yards, hardly adequate. :confused:

Inside of 100 yards a 30-30 will work fine on elk. I'll second the 6.5x55 Swede, while I haven't ever used one the .260 Remington would be another good choice.

One of the easiest ways to scare off new (and young) hunters is overdoing it on firearms.

[priv8ter]

I would have to second the folks saying that a .308 or .270 would be the way I would go. My wifes deer/elk gun is a NEF Handi-Rifle in .270. With a premium 140 or 150gr round, there is no doubt in my mind that .270 is a satisfactory elk round.

greg

[Bill2k1]

I would say 30-06 with a good scope. If you haven't hunted in a long while, get in a class for Hunters Education and deer hunt this year. I don't know when your deer season starts, but there maybe time to get a class in before it and hunt this season.

Also check your states law on Hunters Education, you maybe exempt from being required to take it, but it could be a cool Mother/Son thing.

[sumpnz]

Also check your states law on Hunters Education, you maybe exempt from being required to take it, but it could be a cool father/son thing. In this case it would be mother/son (assuming the boy is her son and not just a family friend).He should spend that time seriously practicing. +1 One of the easiest ways to scare off new (and young) hunters is overdoing it on firearms. +1

[WYO]

My 12 year old will be hunting his first antelope, mulies and elk this season with a Remington 700 youth in 7mm-08 loaded with 140 grain Barnes Triple Shocks downloaded to 2500 fps mv. Of course, we will be limiting his range. He has been shooting this for a couple of years now (with 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips downloaded to 2400 fps mv), and he got his first deer with it in Louisiana last year at 155 yards. He is very careful and would not take a shot (nor would I let him) that he cannot make. If I were selecting a rifle for him today, I would consider a .308, appropriately downloaded, but his 7mm-08 ought to serve him well for anything in these parts.

[Sharps Shooter]

I too would choose either a 7mm-08 or a .308 and make sure he limits his range and places his shots carefully. And speaking of good shot placement, it's easier if you know your rifle isn't going to kick the living h*** out of you when you squeeze the trigger. The .308 is not a real hard kicking number, and I personally think the 7mm-08 is a pussy-cat when it comes to recoil. A Winchester 70 Featherweight chambered for either cartridge would be great, IMO.

[45crittergitter]

Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets. I would definitely NOT recommend any .300 mag for a beginner. If he's comfortable with a .300, you don't need our advice!

[TwoGun]

If the anticipated range is not great, I'd suggest a Remington Model 7 in .308 and would premium ammo. But between now and then I'd have him do LOTS of shooitng with cheap surplus ammo. If your son I a really big kid and can handle something bigger without sacrificing shot placement, thenthere are numerous other choices but for what I would call a typical 14 year old, I'd stick with the .308.

The Model 7 is a great little rifle and if you son is small in statue they make it in a youth model with a slightly smaller stock.

Good luck

[fisherman66]

I'd get that kiddo a bunch of time behind a 22lr first. If you handload you can have your cake and load a 300wmag for practice and for elk. Otherwise I'd go 308. That's my plan. A heavy barreled Rem700 or likewise will tame the kick some. Do not get some lightweight mag. I'll reemphisize practice with the 22.

[GunGoBoom]

Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets.

+1.

[pax]

Thanks, all, keep 'em coming.

I'd get that kiddo a bunch of time behind a 22lr first.
:D Oh, he's done that ... believe me.

pax

[WYO]

Does he hunt with his .22? My son's abilities were greatly enhanced by two seasons of squirrel hunting with a scoped bolt action .22 shooting subsonic hollowpoints. With almost no noise and zero recoil, he learned a lot about sight alignment, breathing and trigger control.

[45crittergitter]

By the way, the "little calibers for little people" thing is a myth. IMO, handling recoil is at least 80% mental. I'm about 135# soaking wet, and deer hunt with a .416 that my 200# hunting buddies don't want to touch. The relevant thing here is that the rifle itself not be too big/heavy to handle, and that the recoil be light for a beginning shooter, not necessarily for a small one.

[W Turner]

My first thought was to suggest a Marlin lever-gun in .35 Remington and limit your shots to 100 yards and under. Moderate recoil, bigger, heavier bullet and a handy rifle to have to carry around.

A .308 or .270 in a standard hunting rifle would not be a bad choice as well. They should be readily available on the used rack and ammo is available at Wal-Mart.


W

[bosshoff]

I don't know much about Savage rifles, except to say some people like them. This looks like it would be a good rifle to start with if you go with a scope.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2684985

Personallly, when my son is ready to go on this type of hunt, he will be using iron sights. Did I mention he turns 6 months old in a few days. :D Something like this is what I would choose.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3170109

[Balog]

Altho 30-06 would prolly be the easiest choice, you might want to look at the .358 Win. Here's a thread by H&HHunter on the cartridge http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=143624

[mustanger98]

Okay, I gots me a 13-year-old kid who wants to hunt. He's got a friend with a nice plot of land where there are "too many" elk.

I haven't been hunting myself since I was about that age, and barely remember most details. Plus we hunted deer rather than elk. So I'm a little lost.

I think I can get through the bureaucracy all right -- not for this season, I don't think, but for next year. We'll get him (and me) through a hunter's safety class and all that.

The problem is, well ...

What gun do I suggest he save up for?

Up 'til now, he's shot .22 rifles and a variety of handguns. He hasn't handled a shotgun and he's only fired a .223 a couple of times. I have reason to believe he'd do just fine with anything I hand him, but am just not sure where to start here.

Suggestions?

pax


Okay, here's my $.02 or so.

On the correct rifle, there is no one right rifle to use. At one time, they said a Winchester '94 in .375Win. was the best elk rifle around. FWIW, that's been on my "to aquire" list, but that's me. A .375Win. shoots a 225gr JSP and it probably has some percieved recoil. We don't really know how recoil sensitive this kid is.

My Daddy and I got to discussing this stuff and his opinion is if an elk gets his lungs punched through with a 170gr SP from a Winchester .30-30 or .32Win.Spl., it beats a bad shot with a .30-06 or anything else. .30-30 and .32Spl recoil ain't bad. During practice, be sure the kid has hearing protection as muzzle blast can bust a kid's nerves before he gets used to it- I can vouch for that one. The old '94 with aperture sights- tang or receiver mounted- will do it out to 200yds, but a real hunter wants to get closer than that if/when/where possible. This rifle will be lighter to pack all day in rough country than a lot of other rifles, thanks to John Moses Browning. I'm not saying .30-06 is bad by any means. Just that some rifles/calibers are better for some people than others.

The problem with .223Remington is that it's really not big enough for anything bigger than a groundhog. Deer hunters have to be extremely particular about bullet placement to do any good with it. You just about have to put it in the animal's ear and that's really really iffy. I don't recommend it.

My opinion on sights vs. optics is that in rough country, every hunter should have irons and know how to use them. Scopes can get trashed and if you don't have irons, you're out of the hunt.

I recommend you read "Hell, I Was There" by Elmer Keith. Although I'm in favor of Winchester '94's and .30-30, Mr. Keith was no fan because of range and killing power at the time. Sights and optics are another matter as Elmer Keith had a hand in designing several scopes. I'm sure you'll find some insights there. I sure did.

[Balog]

mustanger98 wrote: The old '94 with aperture sights- tang or receiver mounted- will do it out to 200yds, but a real hunter wants to get closer than that if/when/where possible. This rifle will be lighter to pack all day in rough country than a lot of other rifles, thanks to John Moses Browning.

JMB designed the Winchester '94? I didn't know that, altho it would explain the longevity of the design.

[mustanger98]

Balog, You may recall how heavy built the earlier Winchester leverguns were. The 1892 Winchester was able to be built so light and streamlined because it was designed to cycle revolver-length cartriges. They wanted the 1894 to be as light and streamlined, but before JMB thought it out, there was no way to cycle .30-30 length cartriges without adding depth and a lot more steel to the receiver. That's why the dropping toggle action was thought designed- to add depth to the cycle, but not to the demensions of the receiver.

[elkhunter]

Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets. I would definitely NOT recommend any .300 mag for a beginner. If he's comfortable with a .300, you don't need our advice!

+ 2

I don't know how big you're kid is but, Again anything with the word Mag in the title probably is not a good idea.

I don't know which side of the state you are hunting on, but if it's the west side, range is probably not going to be too much of an issue unless you're hunting in some big clearcuts.

As far as rifle selection goes, just like any other gun, take him to the gun shop and see what fits best. Model 7's are awesome youth guns, but if he is any thing like my brother was at his age, he's already too lanky to comfortably use a gun that short.

Savages are known to be extremely accurate these days, and they have a very good gun/caliber selection. If you want it they probably have it. (and they won't break the wallet)

Also, don't forget to spend the money on a decent scope. Optics are one of those thing that you get what you pay for. I'm not saying to buy a $800 scope, but don't buy a $50 Tasco either. (The same goes for binos, which you will definately need.)

My first big game gun when I was 13 was a Win Model 70 in 30-06, and it worked just fine. (course by that age I was tipping the scales at about 160-170)

One great, older, often overlooked gun is the Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage. The caliber is adequate under 300 yard, and it doesn't recoil too much. The only problem is finding a good used one that hasn't had the price inflated through the roof.

[bosshoff]

This would do the trick nicely.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151343

[SHOOT1SAM]

Well, I won't get into caliber, but here's what I did last year. My wife decided she wanted to deer hunt for the 1st time in 10 years.

I got a super-soft recipe from Sierra for my daughter's .260 Remington consisting of an 85 gr. bullet in front of 10 gr. of Unique resulting in the recoil of a .22 lr.

She practiced up a little, and when we hunted she was shooting full power 140 gr. Nosler Partitions loads (can't remember the powder charge off the top of my head).

It was sneaky, I know, but she gained a ton of confidence with the ultra-light loads in a very short time & never knew the difference when she pulled the trigger on a deer (& still doesn't know) as the recoil when shooting at an animal is never felt/perceived as it is when one is target practicing.

Sam

[mustanger98]

In post #26 of this thread, I was talking about the possibilty of using a Winchester .30-30 w/ 170gr SP's for elk. I had been thinking of plain old Winchester PowerPoint or Remington CoreLokt, but I was at my buddy's gun shop yesterday and he has some of this new .30-30 ammo out from, IIRC, Federal called "Fusion". He was telling me he ran across it at one of the trade shows earlier this year and it's supposed to hold something like 90-95% of it's weight. In my part of the country, Remington CoreLokts bring $12.99/20rds and this new Fusion round brings $15.99/20rds. Now, if this load can be had in the 170gr-ers, considering that with a larger animal like an elk you'll want more weight retention and more penetration while trying to stick to less recoil for a kid, I'd suggest looking into this load. Like I said, through the lungs at 200yds or less.

[Double Maduro]

Pax,

If the boy can handle it, a good 30-06 is the way I would go. If he gets into hunting, he can take almost any land animal in North America with it. I would not choose it for Polar Bear.

The other thing to consider is what part of the state are you going to hunt in.

Thw west side with the larger Roosevelt elk is pretty heavily timbered and the brush gets pretty thick. The range is usually fairly short.

The east side of the state is more open and the Rocky Mountain version of elk is a grazer as opposed to the browsing Roosevelt. The shots on the east side can be much longer.

I envy you having a youngun to go hunting with.

DM

edited to ad: Didn't see what elk hunter had posted, great minds and all that. :neener:

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, ELK LIVER MMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMM. :)

[only1asterisk]

A rifle that fits and is chambered for something more than .243/6mm and less than the various 7mm/300 magnums used with appropriate bullets at ranges less than 200 yards.

7-08, 270, 30-06 or 308 might be best if you don't have access to handloaded ammo. These popular calibers have a good selection of ammunition factory loaded with appropriate bullets.

The main thing is to make sure your young hunter is schooled in elk anatomy and knows where to place his shots, or what he's shooting will not matter


David

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets."

+ another for such as the '06 or .308. Some of the major mfgrs. have introduced "low recoil" loads in at least '06 that can be conducive to more practice without getting beat up too bad. Not a lot of difference in trajectory at relatively short range (100 or so yards).

[Byron Quick]

My first thought was to suggest a Marlin lever-gun in .35 Remington and limit your shots to 100 yards and under. Moderate recoil, bigger, heavier bullet and a handy rifle to have to carry around.

Around here, there is not much of a selection when it comes to .35 Remington. I didn't have a problem with accuracy, I did have a problem with terminal ballistic performance on mid-sized whitetail does. The vast majority went down right there. The couple that I had to track through frozen beaver swamps for hours; made me look for a caliber with a greater selection of premium bullets. When I found one, it was shot through both lungs. Made it almost a mile through the swamp. The one that I never found, was knocked down, and didn't move for about fifteen minutes. Then it jumped up and ran off, never to be seen again. The Marlin had jammed so badly that it took tools to get the cartridge loose. Where the deer had gone down, there was a circle of hair knocked loose as big as a dinner plate. Range was about 75 yards.

[Ankeny]

Something (anything) in the 7mm/08, .270, .280, .308, .30-06... class, assuming proper (premium) elk bullets. I would definitely NOT recommend any .300 mag for a beginner. If he's comfortable with a .300, you don't need our advice!

I guess I make +4. FWIW, if you truly limit your range and pick your shot, a 7X57 is plenty.

[Chuck Dye]

Whatever the rifle you and your son choose, take the time to get a good physical fit. Trim the length of pull as needed, put a good recoil pad on, and look at one of the lace-on cheek pieces to get the comb up to where he can both line up on the sights or scope and get a good cheek weld. Be prepared to buy a post-puberty replacement stock. :)

[Red Tornado]

There's currently a good deal on a 760 w/ Scope for $215 here. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=142612) It looks like a hard price to beat for a scoped 30-06.
RT

[H&Hhunter]

I am not going to add anything that hasn't been said already. But my advice is simply do not get hung up on the magnumitis craze with an elk rifle. It isn't neccesary.

If you can find a .358 that'd be a fabulous low recoiling elk round however just due to ease of ammo and such I'd go .270 .308 .30-06 ETC..

[askikr]

my father got me into hunting when i was 13 too ( i was pretty small for my age). he let me use my grandfathers pre 64 winchester model 70 featherweight in 30-06. this is the same rifle i use today at 24 yrs old. if he can handle it, the 30-06 is a great versitile rifle that he can grow up with. he should have no trouble taking just about any large game animal in north america.