[doberman]

I purchased my first Glock that was a Police trade in. It has a ("cutaway"?) where the magazine meets the frame. I assume to aid in pulling out the magazine. I notice that newer models do not have this feature. Reason?

I'm not really concerned about it but more curious.

:cool:

[Rexrider]

I am not sure what you mean by a cutaway. Can you post a picture?. The base of the mag well is flush on the sides and front. There is a semi-circle cutaway at the back of the mag well where the empty space is to form the grip. If that is not what you are talking about then it sounds like someone did a little home gunsmithing.

[doberman]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35963396#DESC
Here's a pic of one for sale on Gunbroker. Sorry It's the only pic I could find right now
This isn't a very good pic but if you look closely you can see what I'm talking about.

:confused:

[tech]

I think you are refering to the hole on the rear bottom of the gripframe? Mine has a plug in it.

M

[MacPelto]

No home gunsmithing, Gen 2s came like that, Gen 1 probably also came that way. I think they got rid of it when thay added finger grooves to boost their points count.

Mac

[doberman]

No home gunsmithing, Gen 2s came like that, Gen 1 probably also came that way. I think they got rid of it when thay added finger grooves to boost their points count.

Any disadvantages to the Gen 1&2's over newer models? Like I said it was a police trade in and it's in really good shape. Looks like it was carried more than shot.


Time for a trip to the range I guess. :D

[MacPelto]

Any disadvantages to the Gen 1&2's over newer models?

Nope, in fact I like my gen 2 better because those grooves don't fit my fingers in the least.

Mac

[gulogulo1970]

I like the ones without the finger grooves more than the ones with them. The trade-ins are a heck of a deal.

[C. H. Luke]

"It has a ("cutaway"?) where the magazine meets the frame...."

If you are referring to the half-moon cut at the front of the grip, it was there for the original Hicap's that did not "drop-free" from the gun. Austrian Military logic was not to discard mags, so they were meant to be pulled out.

Seems most hands don't fit the finger grooves? Never mineded the flat front 2nd Gen guns at all personally!

[rick_reno]

That hollow area in the back of the grip is to store dirt in. Should global warming really kick in and melt the poles and when the earth is covered with water your little bit of dirt will be valuable. Treasure it. I wish my 1911's had a place to store dirt. :)

[Zach S]

Any disadvantages to the Gen 1&2's over newer models?
No light rail, but that's all I can think of, and that doesnt matter to me.

I hate the finger grooves. Both my previous and current G17 are second generation.

[Rexrider]

I am a little late in checking back but I see the question has been answered.

I never had a gen 2. I owned gen 1 model 17 long ago. All I had to go on is my current gen 3 model 21.

Cheers

[JohnKSa]

Austrian Military logic was not to discard mags, so they were meant to be pulled out.Austrian military logic was not to discard mags that were still mostly full so they had to be pulled out unless empty. If they were empty they would drop out on their own.

[middy]

Luckily, the ridges of the finger grooves are solid polymer. If you don't like them, hack them off with a wood rasp. If you think this will make your Glock even uglier (is that even possible?), then use a piece of inner tube to cover the grip.

Voila, instant gen 2 grip with accessory rail; best of both worlds.

[SnakeEater]

I wish my 1911's had a place to store dirt.

But your 1911 would surely jam just thinking of dirt, the Glock on the other hand can use dirt as lubricant in a pinch and just keep on truckin. :evil:

[C. H. Luke]

"Austrian military logic was not to discard mags that were still mostly full so they had to be pulled out unless empty. If they were empty they would drop out on their own."

Not True. Their original mags were called "non-drop-free" for a reason. This is common knowledge and well documented.

[JohnKSa]

Well, I own some non drop-free mags, so I wasn't really guessing, but here's a link.

http://www.glockfaq.com/magazine.htm

[Blueduck]

I think they got rid of it when thay added finger grooves to boost their points count.

Just for trivia the "Finger Grooves" don't give the Glock any addtional import points, the little indention on the side of 3rd Generation guns are considered a "Thumb Rest", which does give points (that only the G-26, 27 and 33 actaully need for importation anyway).

Glock could rid itself of the "grooves" if it so desired.

[chopinbloc]

I wish my 1911's had a place to store dirt.

but your 1911 DOES have a place to store dirt - between tightly fit, expensive and fragile parts where it can do its job: turning an overly pretensious "firearm" into a paper weight. an expensive one at that. unfortunately for me, there are no parts, let alone fragile and easily jammed ones in that gap on the backstrap of a glock.

Not True. Their original mags were called "non-drop-free" for a reason. This is common knowledge and well documented.

i own a couple as well and they will drop free of the pistol when empty. i still carry the "drop free" mags, though.

[Zach S]

Yes, the mags do indeed drop free when they're empty. However, the first thing you do to correct most malfunctions is drop the magazine that's currently in the pistol, since the mag doesn't drop until its at most half full or so, you have to pull it out, which is why I think the cutaways are there.

Anyway, considering the size of the stock mag release on my G17, I dont see how it could accidently be hit. It seems like it would be easy wth an extended release though.

If you think this will make your Glock even uglier (is that even possible?), then use a piece of inner tube to cover the grip.
Or if you dont care how much uglier you make an ugly pistol, you can wrap the grip with rubber bands.

But your 1911 would surely jam just thinking of dirt, the Glock on the other hand can use dirt as lubricant in a pinch and just keep on truckin.
This is funny considering that the G17 rental at the range has had more problems than all the 1911s I've owned (combined).

[bofe954]

"This is funny considering that the G17 rental at the range has had more problems than all the 1911s I've owned (combined)."

How many problems has the G17 at the range had?

What were they?

Who was shooting it when it had these "problems"?

How many have problems have your 1911's had?

What kind of problems were they?

How many have you owned?

How many rounds are through the range gun and how often is it cleaned compared to all of your combined 1911's?

A beautiful example of the ever present, "I don't own one but I know someone who does and it's junk" internet eyewitness account.

[Zach S]

How many problems has the G17 at the range had?

What were they? The spring for the take-down has broken twice, that I've seen. Once for me and again for a customer (the G19 spring has also broke for me). The trigger spring broke once, I wasnt shooting it, but I was there when the customer brought it back in the store. IME, it also feeds less reliable than my AMT did, before I started stealing parts off if it (there isnt much of a gun left now). Its been broken a time or two more, but I wasnt there to witness it.

Who was shooting it when it had these "problems"?Me, and other customers.

How many have problems have your 1911's had?

What kind of problems were they?Slide stop and extractor needed replaced on two seperate pistols. One would slide lock with rounds in it (Kimber Polymer) and the other's extractor (Para Comapnion) wouldnt keep tension though a range sesson. Also, the Para is bad to rust, so its waiting on me to send it to Tripp.

How many have you owned? An AMT hardballer, three series one kimbers, a Colt 1991A1, Para Companion, and a Springer mil-spec.

How many rounds are through the range gun and how often is it cleaned compared to all of your combined 1911's?I dont know, I dont work there very often (usually hang out, and I wind up working when it gets busy). I do know it stays cleaner than my 5" 1911s, which are normally cleaned around 1500 rounds or so. I dont bother counting rounds for my 4" Kimber, I just change the recoil spring every so often. I'd guess about 3000 rounds through my Classic Stainless, and give or take 1000 rounds, I've got about 10k through my polymer Kimber. I'd guess around 1500 rounds through the Para and 2K for the mil-spec. The Colt was sold to generate funds for something else, and I have no idea how many rounds I had through it. The AMT hasnt been fired in years.


A beautiful example of the ever present, "I don't own one but I know someone who does and it's junk" internet eyewitness account. If you had bothered to read my entire post above, you would have noticed that I do own one. And unlike the one at the range, I can trust my life to it.

[Blueduck]

I still have no idea why people get so uptight over what guns best and who's "side" your really on ;)

[toocool]

I've had several 3rd generation guns (the finger-groove versions) and all the "full -size medium frames (17, 22,31) still have that "cutout." The compact frames (19, 23, 32) do not have it, nor do the large frames (20,21).

I've divested myself of all Glocks, mostly because I don't care for the grip angle or the finger grooves on the newer guns. I have a couple of H & K's that are excellent weapons and fit my hand like they were made just for me, and a Taurus Mil Pro PT145 that's the same way.

[C. H. Luke]

"Well, I own some non drop-free mags, so I wasn't really guessing, but here's a link."

Chuck Karwan may well be right on the intent but in practice many of their mags swelled and stayed that way. The metal liner is/was only on 3 sides so easy to become permanently sprung.

Not to mention the feedlips can do the same, especially on .40 mags.....

May be a few of mine that DO drop free but most don't when empty. They are also well used and scuffed on the sides, etc. along with the magwell.

[JohnKSa]

I've heard that occasionally some stick even when empty, but that is the exception rather than the rule. It's logical that if the mags or magwell are "scuffed" that would make them much more likely to stick.

[rrb]

.........

[355sigfan]

New glocks do have the cut away and its to aid in ripping the mags out of the gun. The Glock 21 and 20 do not have the cut away. Its a worthwhile feature as most Glock mags become non drop free at least up here in the sandy enviroment we have they do.
Pat

[C. H. Luke]

"I've heard that occasionally some stick even when empty, but that is the exception rather than the rule."

This is not really true either.

A good number of years ago have talked over the "NDF" problem with both Chris Edwards and the Head of their Warranty Dept in Smyrna, plus also in person at GSSF Matches. It even happens with their "Drop-free" 9mm and .45 mags. {Scuffed magwells are part of the deal if one shoots any amount at all}

There is an IDPA, IPSC, etc. Match to be shot around this neck of the woods every weekend in the Summer. Almost never fail to see someone have to shake or rip an empty from a {full-sz.} Glock during a Match while performing a speed-load. :barf:

[Blueduck]

I've heard the "Full or partially full mags stick intentionally at the request of the Austrian Army" thing for years, but have yet to see one official quote or bid specification to show this is not an urban legend or "after the fact" discovered engineering advantage ;)

Anyone have real proof this was intentional? if so are the replacment mags for the Austrian armed forces the old style instead of the newer "drop free" versions???

[JohnKSa]

This is not really true either.Well, I'm not really trying to convince you. I was just setting the record straight for people who might be reading the thread and didn't know the facts. I provided an authoritative link to support what I said and anyone with access to internet search can find a good many more links that say the same thing.

You say you have magazines that you say characterize as "sprung" and "scuffed" and say your magwell is scuffed too. It doesn't surprise me in the least that your mags stick. In fact, I can think of other gun/mag combinations would have similar problems given those kind of conditions (sprung mags and scuffed mags & magwell). Perhaps, your mags are worn out and should be replaced, but at any rate, I'd say that your personal experience with what you characterize as very well used and perhaps abused mags have, at best, limited bearing on the general situation.

BTW, I'm curious, are you the same Cool Hand Luke who posts (or used to post) on Assaultweb?Anyone have real proof this was intentional?Given that you're going against what has been common knowledge for a lot of years now, it seems logical that you should supply the proof. ;)

[Blueduck]

Given that you're going against what has been common knowledge for a lot of years now, it seems logical that you should supply the proof.

Thier is no way to prove a negative, for example say I spent the next 55 years searching 99.995% of the internet, and 99.9996% of every Austrian Millitary records since 1804, but could not find it. Would that prove it did not exist???

I don't play big foot/Loch Ness monster logic ;)

Common knowledge or not, till I see something valid it's just another suburban commando myth.

[JohnKSa]

till I see something valid it's just another suburban commando myth.Surely you jest!

You have provided zero evidence to support your premise. Not only that, you haven't even provided so much as a shred of evidence that calls the current common knowledge into question.

Until you at least TRY to make your premise into more than mere personal speculation, you're going to have to find someone a lot more easygoing than I am to task for your personal research projects.

Believe what you want, but don't pretend that you're doing anything more than speculating unless you're willing to provide something more concrete than your own idle musings to back up your premise.

[Blueduck]

"Speculating" is assuming something...I on the other hand am simply asking if anyone has proof that a well known specualtion is true or not ;)

If that upsets you so be it.

[JohnKSa]

You came up with an idea without any supporting evidence and said that until anyone could provide "valid" (you get to decide what valid is, I take it) evidence that you would continue to believe that the accepted view was a myth.

Zero supporting evidence.
Zero evidence calling the current view into question.

Zero evidence = speculation.

[Rockstar]

First question on Otis Quick-Scoring I.Q. Test: "What is the statistical probability that one would find information regarding Glocks in Austrian military records prior to 1985?"

Second question: "What is 'reasoning in a circle?'"

[Blueduck]

Prior to then...not much, but someone *could* say "well that spec was written well before the test actually took place."

Although John my not belive me I don't have a firm opinion on this one way or the other. It's just that I've heard the same line about the Austrian Army requiring this dozens of times. Each time I've asked if anyone had a copy of the bid proposal or required specifications to confirm it...utter silence.

I'm just putting this in the suspicouis category for now till I see different. Being from Missouri if you make a claim don't be surprised or insulted at my response :rolleyes:

[C. H. Luke]

"I'd say that your personal experience with what you characterize as very well used and perhaps abused mags have, at best, limited bearing on the general situation.

BTW, I'm curious, are you the same Cool Hand Luke who posts (or used to post) on Assaultweb?"

So that's what this has been about. You have an agenda with someone else! {Sounds like an Axe to grind too, from the above}

Don't know anything about "Assaultweb", never looked at it or knew of it, much less posted anything on it using any handle, including the one am using here.

No more time to indulge in this nonproductive, ego driven, emotionally negative stuff either.... :rolleyes:


"Do some research. I'm not guessing or repeating what I've heard--I own a bunch of non-drop free mags."

[JohnKSa]

You have an agenda with someone else!No agenda. Besides the name, you two share other characteristics--I was curious.No more time to indulge in this nonproductive, ego driven, emotionally negative stuff either :D Right! We're all here because of our lack of time and busy schedules! ;)So that's what this has been about.Nope, sorry, I was just setting the record straight. Sorry if I sprung or scuffed you in the process. ;)