[danhei]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm trying to get a sense open carry in the Denver area. I live in unincorporated Littleton (Jefferson Co.). I realize that in Denver itself open carry will get a person arrested. Maybe Boulder, too. But what about the rest of the metro area? Does anyone here open carry on a regular basis? Have you been hassled? Weird looks or comments? I can't say I've ever noticed someone carrying openly but I can sometimes spot people likely to carrying concealed.

I did extensively search the board without getting a very good sense about carrying around town. Some users from Colorado said they carried but were not specific about where they live. There was a brief account of someone in Broomfield that may have been arrested for carrying openly.

Opencarry.org (http://opencarry.org) does not have any accounts for Colorado.

Not to start any kind of argument but please don't suggest getting a concealed permit. I would no more do that than get a permit to go to church.

[Zak Smith]

SB25, which passed in 2003, was supposed to provide pre-emption all local firearms law to state, with the exception that a locality could prohibit open carry in specific locations if those locations are posted. SB24, passed at the same time, provided statewide shall-issue CCW, which no locality could pre-empt except in buildings which had 24/7 guards, metal detectors at all entrances, and a place to "check" your gun. I haven't seen one of those yet.

But Denver County still thinks they have the power to outlaw whatever they want. There is at least one lawsuit pending about this, Sternberg vs. Denver.

I hope one of our Denver-area LEOs will chime in here.

-z

PS- CCW. It's more tactical.

[Pilot]

Not to start any kind of argument but please don't suggest getting a concealed permit. I would no more do that than get a permit to go to church.

Open carry just invites the bad guy to shoot you first since he/she knows you're armed. Bad ideas. As CO is a shall issue state, I don't see why you are so against getting a CCW. I know the 2nd Amendment and all, but we're dealing with reality here.

[scottgun]

I only open carry when I am camping or jeeping out in the mountains and wilderness areas. I will cover up if I'm stopping for gas or going into a store. Thats just me though. Overall, I prefer to go unnoticed, so concealed is the way to go.

You will most likely encounter problems in populated areas of the Front Range. You will definitely encounter problems in Denver. I don't have the money or the time to challenge their home rule status.

Like other posters said, CCW isn't that hard to get, although it does take some time and money to obtain.

Between legal vehicle carry and open carry, there is a decent amount of freedom to carry without a CCW, but for the remainder of the time, CCW has it's benefits.

[danhei]

I've read a lot of the posts on open carry on the board. I understand some feel it is a disadvantage compared to concealed carry. The disadvantage seems to be almost entirely hypothetical as there aren't many accounts of openly armed people being shot.

Thanks for the replies. What I was really hoping for were accounts of people openly carrying in the metro area. I guess nobody does this which is probably why there aren't any accounts.

And again, I will not get a permit. I fully understand CO is a shall issue state now and I could get a permit very easily if I wanted to.

[Zak Smith]

If you search the older threads, you'll find several in which this was discussed. At least one had a Denver LEO give his perspective on it.

[danhei]

Zak, thanks for the reply. I did even more searching and I think this is the post (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=527168#post527168) you're thinking about. This particular LEO wouldn't hassle but he thinks concealed is much better in an urban area.

Reading other posts on open carry it seems like someone needs to make a first step. Some people said they would carry open if more people did it. Others, besides feeling that open is a disadvantage, won't carry open because it makes people uncomfortable or scared as they aren't used to seeing non-police carrying. The only way to resolve this, I think, is for people to start carrying open and get others used to it. Otherwise the situation will remain as it is. Logically I ought to just start carrying but emotionally it's really hard to make myself stand out from the crowd in such a way! I suppose if I'm really willing to go through with it I ought to get some business-size cards with the relevant laws (like SB25) printed to give people who have questions. Be a real ambassador for open carrying.

Thanks to all who have made this site a great resource. There is hours of thought provoking reading just on this subject!

Dan

[Zak Smith]

That's the one.

[scottgun]

danhei - can I ask why you are so opposed to getting a CCW?
just curious,


Also, let us know how the open carry goes.

[hkOrion]

He's opposed for the same reason a lot of us are (including myself). I actually went out of my way to get a non-res FL permit instead of a CO permit. In CO (until 2006) they put CHP holders in a database of 'persons of interest'. Here in CO, a 'person of interest' is usually reserved for criminals. So I'd rather not have the Colorado Highway Patrol pull me over and pop up on their little lists as a 'person of interest'. Besides, I used to live in Denver County, and the crap you had to go through just to get down there was a pain in the ass.

Now, to take it a step further - IF the second amendment is supposed to guarantee my RKBA, why should I have to fund some welfare machine and pay for my rights? So some police database can keep a record of me and my prints? So they can track how many guns I buy? No thanks. Hell, I want a tank like that guy got down in the south, full auto, you name it. Military arms. That's what the second amendment was about.

and yeah, i know people are going to chime in on the whole "we need to permit people to make sure they're safe, we need to do background checks to make sure felons don't buy guns, etc". If you're not safe you'll most likely eliminate yourself from the gene pool, and most felons have already shown little regard for laws.

i'll leave it at that. and danhei - we know you don't go to church!

[Standing Wolf]

Reading other posts on open carry it seems like someone needs to make a first step. Some people said they would carry open if more people did it.

That's one of the reasons I carry openly about a quarter or a third of the time. Virtually no one notices.

[danhei]

Scottgun, HkOrion fairly well summed up my viewpoint.

To reiterate my first comment; I would not get a permit to go to church. I'm not actually a churchgoer but I think that religious freedom is a fundamental right. I chose that as an example because I think no one here would ever accept a permit to go to church-I hope-whether it was $0 or $10 or $100. Well, I think the right to bear arms is just as fundamental and as such am completely opposed to what amounts to a permission slip to excercise my right.

[Sindawe]

That's one of the reasons I carry openly about a quarter or a third of the time. Virtually no one notices. Ya sure of that Standing Wolf? Open carry is very rare in my area, but I DO notice when I see it. I just don't make a point of freaking out about it.

"OH MY DOWG! HE'S GOT A GUN!! AAAAAHHHHH" -wet pants, fall to floor in abject terror...

[hkOrion]

Yes Sindawe, but can you say that for the rest of the population in Boulder/Denver? Not likely.

I would expect the peoples of Boulder to accept the fact that I choose to live my life in a certain way, and to respect it. Just as I do all of the people who choose alternative lifestyles - but it's not likely. It makes them FEEL scared, so I have to change my lifestyle, something that if pressed on them they'd go friggin' nuts over.

The hunk of metal hanging off of my hip will harm no one any more than their rainbow stickers and PETA memberships. The individual causes the harm, not the object or association.

[Sindawe]

Yes Sindawe, but can you say that for the rest of the population in Boulder/Denver? Not likely. True, a goodly portion of 'em would 'prolly freak quite badly. Heck, they get all in a tither when I wear my Hitler (http://www.jpfo.org/jpfowear.htm) T-shirt (2nd down) on the Pearl St. Mall. :evil:

[hkOrion]

I guess we could do some social experimentation. You walk down the street in your nifty t-shirt, dan will walk down the street with his trusty sidearm strapped on, and I'll walk down the street with my EBR slung over my shoulder (unloaded, of course) and we'll see who gets the most looks :eek: .

[Standing Wolf]

Ya sure of that Standing Wolf?

Not absolutely, no.

Apart from my fellow bullseye shooters at the range, only one person has remarked my carrying openly. She was neither hostile nor encouraging: merely curious.

To the best of my knowledge, people simply don't notice that I'm packing iron, and it doesn't seem to matter whether I'm carrying a pre-agreement Smith & Wesson model 60 in an inside the waist band holster or a full-sized revolver in a traditional hip holster.

I think we'd be a much saner, safer, more polite nation if everyone saw lots of law-abiding American citizens openly carrying guns peaceably, safely, and to good purpose.

[scottgun]

I just got a new OWB holster, I'll meet you guys out on Pearl St. (or where ever) for your social experiment.

Believe it not, there's a fair number of gun folks in and around Boulder, they mostly go unnoticed due to the larger number of Little Churchills running around with their Chi Guervo t-shirts and berets.

[Jay Kominek]

You walk down the street in your nifty t-shirt, dan will walk down the street with his trusty sidearm strapped on, and I'll walk down the street with my EBR slung over my shoulder (unloaded, of course) and we'll see who gets the most looks . I carried a FAL down a bit of Main Street Longmont (picked it up at Grandpa's, walked to my car). Nobody even looked at me. (Unless they all turned around after I walked past. :evil: )

So, are we looking at an open carry get together on Pearl Street? I'm in. :)

[Sindawe]

I think we'd be a much saner, safer, more polite nation if everyone saw lots of law-abiding American citizens openly carrying guns peaceably, safely, and to good purpose. You'll get no argument from me on that point.

[hkOrion]

that's now 4 people I know of in Boulder that actually like guns! sweet. Don't get up there much, but we should all get together for a shoot (not sure if I'm going to make the Colorado Get Together III or not yet).

[danhei]

I'm sure having a "social experiment" on Pearl Street would be entertaining for us. But I kind of don't think it's going to futher the goal of making open carry more accepted if we show up with EBRs and Hitler shirts.

[Zundfolge]

To reiterate my first comment; I would not get a permit to go to church. I'm not actually a churchgoer but I think that religious freedom is a fundamental right. I chose that as an example because I think no one here would ever accept a permit to go to church-I hope-whether it was $0 or $10 or $100. Well, I think the right to bear arms is just as fundamental and as such am completely opposed to what amounts to a permission slip to excercise my right.

I get your point, and I even agree with it, but the problem is that you're living under the delusion that you live in the Constitutional Republic that our founding fathers created.


Here's another analogy ... it's completely immoral, unethical and against my rights to pay Guido and Vinny when The Don sends them around to collect the protection money that I "owe". I would be 100% within my "rights" to tell these two thug to go eff themselves ... however when I do they will hurt me (or I could burn both of them and some other guys show up to hurt me).

So I bow before the superior force and get the darn permit (pay the protection money) because rightly or wrongly the government has the power to make my life less comfortable if I don't follow their rules.



You have no rights in America anymore, so you have two choices. You either accept it and pay for your privileges (even while trying to restore your rights via the system), or you shoot the first cop who messes with you (not a choice that anyone here would approve of for sure). :scrutiny:

[hkOrion]

You have no rights in America anymore, so you have two choices. You either accept it and pay for your privileges (even while trying to restore your rights via the system), or you shoot the first cop who messes with you (not a choice that anyone here would approve of for sure).

I'll agree with the first part, but on the second - it's not the cops that are slowly eating away at our republic. They don't make the laws, or legislate from the bench, or make mad power grabs at a state or federal level. Most cops just want to make it home at night (well, some are on a slight power trip, but that's just because someone gave them that power). If anyone should be shot, it definately isn't the cops.

[Zundfolge]

it's not the cops that are slowly eating away at our republic.

"I vas just followink orders!"

The most often heard phrase at Nuremberg.


(dammnit ... pulled a Godwin already :p )

[hkOrion]

point -> zundfolge.

So how do we get cops to disobey legal orders (laws that have been passed) that they think are not right (in line with the constitutional republic)? It would seem even more whimsical than it is now!

[danhei]

Zundfolge, I absolutely have no delusions about what kind of country I live in. Obviously this is no longer a constitutional republic or we wouldn't even be discussing permits to bear arms!

Off topic, how do you quote someone in a post? It wasn't obvious to me. I'm using firefox if that makes a difference.

[Warren]

Talk to Rick Stanley, he has a lot of practical experience with this issue.

[Coltdriver]

Isn't Rick Stanley still in jail??

He made the error of exercising his constitutional right under the Colorado State Constitution on the steps of the Capitol. He was arrested (in Denver) and tossed in jail.

Total BS.

My advice is simply don't bother with carrying openly in the metro area unless you are on your own property. Not that its illegal but all someone has to do is claim you looked at em wrong and you'd probably be arrested for some nefarious charge and get to join Stanley in the jail.

[cropcirclewalker]

Off topic, how do you quote someone in a post? It wasn't obvious to me. I'm using firefox if that makes a difference.
Mr. Danhei, everybody who is anybody is using firefox.

It is simple to use quotes. First you highlight the phrase to be quoted. You know, you left click at the beginning, hold the button, drag to the end and release, now the highlighted area is blue.

Right click and select copy from the dialog box.

You have chust copied the highlighted phrase into your clipboard.

Now you go the the area where you are posting your reply. You look up above the line above the window into which you are typing and the line above that which has the 2 radio buttons one of which is marked Guided Mode and the other which says Enhanced mode. Anyway the next line up (first character is a B and the last character is a little bitty cloud with little bitty words in it. Put the cursor over that little bitty cloud and it should say, "Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text". So you left click on that little bitty cloud.

A little window pops open.......with the cursor blinking on the white.

Right click, select "Paste" and you have just pasted the contents of your clipboard into the little white square.

Click OK

There, you've done it. Type on as if nothing else happened and you will be fine.

Try it, you'll like it. :cool:

[hkOrion]

you'd probably be arrested for some nefarious charge and get to join Stanley in the jail

Yeah, but at least you would have an interesting stay.

[Zundfolge]

Off topic, how do you quote someone in a post? It wasn't obvious to me. I'm using firefox if that makes a difference.


Basically to get the quote I posted above, it would look like this. only replace the { and } with [ and ]

{quote=danhei}Off topic, how do you quote someone in a post? It wasn't obvious to me. I'm using firefox if that makes a difference.{/quote}

Some forums that use the vBullitin software have a "quote" button on each post that automatically pastes in the quote=username quote tags around the copy in a new post (HINT HINT MODS)


Since you're using firefox, I recommend the following extension to make posting in forums easier
https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=128

[DeseoUnTaco]

So how do we get cops to disobey legal orders (laws that have been passed) that they think are not right (in line with the constitutional republic)? It would seem even more whimsical than it is now!
You don't. It's not really their job to make those kind of decisions. They really should follow policies and laws as set by their department, unless that would violate their own personal morals.

The place to fix all this is in the jury box. If jurors would consistently (or even occasionally) return not guilty for crimes of carrying sans permit, or owning a machinegun, or whatever, LEOs and prosecutors would give up on those laws.

Apparently this is exactly what has happened in Kentucky. So many people grow and sell so much cannabis in KY, but juries just won't convict, that they are no longer busting growers at the state or local level, because they can't get convictions.

Same could happen with any unjust law.

It might be nice if all cops had to take a year-long class in Constitutional law taught by strict originalists, and then applied these principles as they saw fit, but that's really outside of the scope of their job.

[danhei]

Thanks for the quoting tips.

Jury nullification is a nice concept. I'm guessing a lot of us here wouldn't be allowed on a jury trying a firearm case. It's unfortunate that most people are apathetic and don't seem to care that government at all levels operates unconstitutionally. The Kentucky story is encouraging, however.