M2 Ball for M1 Garand


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jefnvk
August 18, 2005, 11:29 PM
Which current commercial loads replicate M2 ball loads? I have lots of people wanting to shoot my M1, and can't keep supplying ammo for them. Any off the shelf types of ammo that aren't hard to find (say, at a Wal-Mart or Dunhams) that work well, that I can have them buy?

I shoot the LC CMP stuff, but I can't keep giving it away, and I can't keep selling it, because then I have none.

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Shaun
August 18, 2005, 11:37 PM
your going to have to go through surplus houses or mail order -- I have produced it for years even using the LC brass and at better quality

Onmilo
August 19, 2005, 12:20 AM
Federal 'American Eagle' promotional 30/06 150 full metal jacket is a near perfect duplicate or M2 ball ammunition.
PMC 150 FMJ is pretty close too but velocity is a bit slower and I haven't found it to be all that accurate. HTH

George S.
August 19, 2005, 12:23 AM
How about reloading your cases and then sell them your reloads? You could even make a small profit and wind up paying nothing for a press and supplies.

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 12:41 AM
Unfortunately, no reloading. College takes a dim view of explosives in dorm rooms :rolleyes:

Accuracy isn't a big deal, these people get more pleasure out of the PING than tight groups. Probably will be plinking anyways.

I do believe that Federal American Eagle is available at Dunhams, that may be an option.

EDIT: In addition to not caring much about groups, it will probably only be a once in a while thing. That is why I am more looking for just something they can pick up a box or two of.

trbon8r
August 19, 2005, 02:11 AM
College (especially here in southern California) took a dim view of my 12 gauge riot gun, AR-15 and other assorted toys too. I solved the problem by not telling them squat. :D

To answer your question though, as stated American Eagle is a pretty close replication of M2 ball ammo. However, I will defend the PMC ammo since it has been pretty accurate for me. If I had to pick one, I do still prefer the American Eagle with of course reloads being the best option if you can do it.

mustanger98
August 19, 2005, 02:28 AM
How about reloading your cases and then sell them your reloads?

Even if the situation were such that he could reload, there's liability in selling people your reloads. If one blew up on somebody, they could sue.

Now, for factory ammo, Remington UMC made a 150gr FMJ round that is rated for the M1 Garand. In fact, that was the first 20rds I put through mine. I don't know if it's still packed in yellow boxes now...

ocabj
August 19, 2005, 04:30 AM
Federal "American Eagle" does NOT duplicate M2. Check the CMP forums. Federal tells people who calls them and asks about the use of American Eagle in M1 Garands not to use it because it's hotter than M2 and doesn't have the appropriate powder for the M1.

Federal does make special ammunition that is M2 compliant, but is only sold through the CMP as commercial ammo (and it is not called "American Eagle").

Currently, there is NO commercial M2 ball compatible (M1 Garand safe) ammunition besides the special CMP stuff. And don't let anyone let you use the Olympic M2 ball ammo. That stuff is notorious hot. Slower burning powder. Definitely not Garand safe.

Stick to Lake City, Greek HXP, or Korean M2 surplus (or handload).

I have no comment on the PMC 'M2' that they advertise on their website. I havne't heard information from a reliable source about this ammo.

mattw
August 19, 2005, 05:25 AM
sorry to hijack but does that mean that you can't just throw any .30-'06 load into your garand without worries?

cracked butt
August 19, 2005, 06:08 AM
I was going to say Winchester white box 30-06 as I shot some of this through my M1 in the past, but a quick search showed that it was way too hot.

sorry to hijack but does that mean that you can't just throw any .30-'06 load into your garand without worries?

yes. The M1 gas system can only handle a certain range of pressure curves, which means a narrow range of bullet weights and a narrow range of powder burn rates.

Sleeping Dog
August 19, 2005, 08:03 AM
I can't keep giving it away, and I can't keep selling it, because then I have none.

Get more. :) With a couple of shooting buddies to chip in for gas, that ride to Camp Perry isn't bad. The greek ammo isn't too bad, even comes on enbloc clips, but it's berdan-primed so reloading the brass isn't practical. They have plenty of LC stuff, too, though not in clips.

<jedi voice> You wanted to go there anyway, didn't you? </jedi voice>

Regards.

Onmilo
August 19, 2005, 10:00 AM
Long time member of the CMP.
I have shot more than my fair share of American Eagle ammunition through the M1 Garands I own without any problems.
CMP is in the business of selling their own ammunition and I personally don't put much stock in any claim they might make about Federal promotional/ military type ammunition.

Now, to answer a later question, Commercial hunting ammunition in some forms, i.e. 'magnum' power loadings, are not recommended for M1 rifles.

As a general rule, most standard hunting loads in the 150 to 165 grain range will prove safe in most M1 Garand rifles.
Winchester 150 grain Power Point has been used successfully by me personally in my M1 Garand rifles on the hunting fields and is a commercial hunting load I will recommend without hesitation.
For the record, my personal rifles are all late post war versions incorporating all the improvements that were made to the rifles prior to them being discontinued.
Personally, I don't recommend shooting ANY ammunition in a World War Two, all correct, uncut operating rod, sloppy gas system, mostly excessively part worn but all correct version of the M1 Garand rifle, period, 'nuff said.

Dave Markowitz
August 19, 2005, 10:20 AM
FWIW,

If you load a 150 grain FMJ on top of enough IMR4064 to get ~2700 FPS MV, you duplicate the original .30 M1906 ballistics. This load was reliable and accurate in my M1, and is noticeable softer-shooting than M2 Ball.

Father Knows Best
August 19, 2005, 10:54 AM
1. Selling your reloads is probably illegal. I'm no expert on this subject, but I'm pretty sure that you need a license to manufacture and sell ammunition.

2. If if not illegal, it could easily subject you to serious liability. Not smart. At the very least, you'd want to set up a company to insulate you from the liability, and carry insurance. You'd need an attorney to make sure you did it right. That all gets expensive.

3. A better option may just be to just resell the ammo you buy. You can buy excellent Lake City surplus from CMP for $230/960 rounds delivered, and there's even cheaper stuff out there is you look. That's $1.92 for 8 rounds, i.e., $1.92 per clip. Explain to people that you're happy to let them shoot your Garand, but ammo doesn't grow on trees. Ask them for $2/clip if they're good friends, and $5/clip if they're not.

pwrtool45
August 19, 2005, 11:44 AM
According to an email I received from Ron Ives at ATK / Federal Cartridge regarding this very question: the American Eagle 150gr FMJ load "isn't made specifically for [the M1 Garand] but many people use it." He also states that the .30-06 Gold Medal Match has a propellant suitable for use in the Garand.

FWIW, straight from the horse's mouth.

iamkris
August 19, 2005, 01:45 PM
Another option is to buy a Schuster adjustable gas nut from many places...attached linky is for Midway USA. You can adjust it to allow excess pressure gas to vent from "hotter" loads like commercial.

Cheaper with a C&R...my dealer price is a little over $26
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=777146

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=777146

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 02:58 PM
With a couple of shooting buddies to chip in for gas, that ride to Camp Perry isn't bad.

From Midland, no. From Houghton, yes. If I were smart, I would have just bought another can last time I was down there, but I am not making a special trip. And, I cannot afford to order $200 worth of ammo right now. Also, as I mentioned, these are my dorm buddies that have just heard that I have an M1, and want to try it.

Reloading is out of the question. While I suppose that it isn't that hard to hide a pistol in a box or in the car, it is much harder to hide a reloading setup. And, I have no idea who my roommate is this year. Plus, that whole liability thing, I definitely don't need to deal with.

Another quick question. What is the cutoff date for LC corrosive ammo? And the KA is the corrosive Korean stuff, not PS, right? There is a gunstore in the area that occasionally has some surplus stuff.

Sleeping Dog
August 19, 2005, 06:08 PM
I saw "Midland" by your name, so figured that's where you are. Houghton is a long trek - to anything resembling civilization.

I never see any LC ammo from the '50's or earlier, at least not that's affordable. Any from the '60's or later is non-corrosive.

Sometimes I shoot the odd foreign stuff too, but I just assume it's corrosive and clean the barrel, op-rod, and gas cylinder with windex before the normal cleaning. Like the Greek ammo the CMP is selling. I don't know if it's corrosive.

Regards.

Father Knows Best
August 19, 2005, 06:34 PM
You're in college in Houghton? Awesome! Go Huskies!

And I just know you spend all your time hanging out in The Library, don't you? :evil:

(For those of you not from the Keewenaw, I'm not talking about a place with shelves full of books....)

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 07:19 PM
I saw "Midland" by your name, so figured that's where you are. Houghton is a long trek - to anything resembling civilization.

Well, for a few more days anyways. My location will change as I do.

And no, unfortunately I don't hang out at The Library. Way too expensive for me. it is a nice place to go every now and then, though

rritter
August 19, 2005, 07:49 PM
Yep, the KA Korean ammo is sold as corrosive, the PS ammo is supposed to be non-corrosive. It's not that much harder to clean the gun of corrosive residue, so I just clean that way regardless of which type of surplus ammo I use.

RecoilRob
August 19, 2005, 07:54 PM
A good way to judge whether your ammo is OK for the M-1 is to watch the ejection pattern.

1 to 2 O'clock is great. 3 O'clock is safe but any going back over your shoulder are ejecting way too hard and should be avoided.

ocabj
August 19, 2005, 08:02 PM
Where your brass ejects doesn't tell you if your ammo is ok.

There are a lot of factors that correlate to brass ejection: ejector, ejector spring, extractor, op rod spring, gas cylinder, the way you are holding the gun (standing, prone, bench).

Cosmoline
August 19, 2005, 08:19 PM
1. Selling your reloads is probably illegal. I'm no expert on this subject, but I'm pretty sure that you need a license to manufacture and sell ammunition.

What's your authority on this? I've never heard of any such license, apart from local and state laws. Certainly you can manufacture ammunition with no license under federal law. Sales might be regulated by the state--but I don't believe smokeless powder ammo sales are regulated by the feds at all. Storing BLACK powder is another matter, as it is a high explosive.

ocabj
August 19, 2005, 08:53 PM
What's your authority on this? I've never heard of any such license, apart from local and state laws. Certainly you can manufacture ammunition with no license under federal law. Sales might be regulated by the state--but I don't believe smokeless powder ammo sales are regulated by the feds at all. Storing BLACK powder is another matter, as it is a high explosive.

Selling reloads is regulated since you are 'manufacturing' ammunition for sale.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#h

(H4) Is one who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purposes of livelihood or profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [27 CFR 178.41]

If you sold a box of reloads to some guy you know for a few bucks, then I doubt the ATF will arrest you. But if something were to happen and the person you sold the reloads to had some sort of problem with the reloads (ie: kaboom -> personal injury and/or firearm destruction) and decided to file some sort of civil suit, the fact that you sold ammunition that you made yourself without a manufacturer's license will probably become an issue.

Sunray
August 19, 2005, 09:06 PM
"...dim view of explosives in dorm rooms..." No problem then. Smokeless powder isn't an explosive. It's a propellant.
"...can't keep supplying ammo for them..." Tell them if they want to shoot your rifle they have to buy ammo and tell 'em what to buy and where to get it. Any factory ammo with a bullet weight less than 180 grains will do fine. No handloads you didn't load yourself.
Mind you, in the 30 some years I've been shooting mine and knowing lots of other M1 shooters, I've never once seen or heard of a rifle being damaged by the ammo. Shooting 220 Silvertips didn't bother mine in the least. Never heard of this 180 grain bullet max stuff until I got on line.

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 10:04 PM
Tell them if they want to shoot your rifle they have to buy ammo and tell 'em what to buy and where to get it.

That is the point of this thread. But, I highly doubt they are going to spend $80 on a case of '06 from the internet when they just want to shoot a few rounds off.

No problem then. Smokeless powder isn't an explosive.

I doubt they share your view of smokeless powder being allowed.

Father Knows Best
August 19, 2005, 10:38 PM
AAAAAAUUUUUUGH!!! I didn't understand your comment about The Library being too expensive. It was just the dive bar my buddies and I used to hang out back in the mid-80s. Nothing like tellin' the folks that you'd be at "The Library." Little did they know that meant beer and not books. :eek:

I just Googled it and discovered that The Library I knew burned down in 1995, and it was recently rebuilt as a "brewpub and restaurant." :barf: No wonder you don't go there.

Good luck. I think you're gonna have to start asking people to contribute to the ammo fund.

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 10:52 PM
Yeah, its not a little bar anymore. It is a brewery, and upscale steakhouse. My meal came out to like $20 last time I was there.

There is another one right down the road we have been going to, right on main street. Can't remember the name of it, but the inside kinda reminds me of a medieval English pub.

CGofMP
August 20, 2005, 12:50 AM
Accuracy isn't a big deal, these people get more pleasure out of the PING than tight groups. Probably will be plinking anyways.


Oh.... I dunno if I agree with that. I am sure the following 24 rounds (3 pings for those of you keeping score) would agree :p

http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/cmpmatchammogroup.jpg

jefnvk
August 20, 2005, 09:51 PM
OK, another quick question. What about the HotShot stuff, 150 gr? Any opinion on that?

Fingolfin
August 21, 2005, 09:20 PM
Anybody know where to get some surplus Lake City other than the CMP? I can't afford that much at one time right now. :(

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