[Sean Smith]

Gigantic :cuss: rant in effect:

As of right now, we've driven to within 50 miles of Baghdad in 5 days. We've blown through the country like crap through a goose, and have suffered total casualties of about... 0.05% of our total force. But all I hear from people, or see on TV, or on various online forums, is how things have been "getting rough."

Rough? First of all, of course it is rough. All of it is rough. THAT'S WHY IT IS CALLED WAR, and not "The Really Nice International Group Hug Activity." We make fun of the French, but our casualties aren't even out of the decimal places yet, and everybody is crying in their beer. Every time we have to stop to shoot somebody, it is a "setback," or a "stalled advance." WRONG, you morons, that's called ACTUALLY FIGHTING A FREAKIN' WAR!!! If only 2,000 Americans get killed when it is all said and done, it will have been a cakewalk.

"Surrender monkey" talk is cheap. :rolleyes:

You want to talk about abject cowardice? Some of you can't even watch TV about a war without being scared out of your wits, and ranting on internet forums about how we should have bombed Iraq more before sending in the troops. At least the doves are honest about being sissies. Some of you see obvious Iraqi propaganda, and it makes you hysterical. Meanwhile, there has been an incredible amount of second-guessing of those School for Advanced Military Studies grads who cooked up the current plan... by people whose entire military education consists of losing games of "Counter-Strike." :rolleyes:

I don't like the idea of dead Americans any more than anybody else, especially since I was in the Army, and always liked the idea of not being dead myself. But for crying out loud, try to get some kind of sense of proportion here. We are talking about a war here, not a cricket game, and lots of people are going to die no matter what we do. Only getting less than a tenth of a percent of your force killed or wounded in the first 5 days of a war, while driving a couple of hundred miles across a trackless wasteland, is a bona fide military miracle in the making. Our armed forces are perfoming miracles, but even Fox News manages to be defeatist sometimes.

To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, I'd suggest that victory is a good hint that you are victorious.

War is chaotic. The next days and weeks may get alot worse. But right now we are on pace to win a spectacular, maybe unprecedented, military victory. Unfortunately, we seem to have become such a cowardly nation that we can't recognize that. "Omigod, there was fighting! And somebody died! Wars aren't supposed to be like that!" :barf:

Wow, I feel better already! :evil:

[Greg L]

Thanks Sean, it needed to be said.

(Can you please tell it to my mother, she can't get it through her head that we really are winning.)

Greg

[Mike Irwin]

Unfortunately people have become used to high-tech, relatively blood-free operations.

Many have come to believe that high-technology can wage and win wars without the loss of life.

[Tamara]

Every time I hear about "Oh, dear Krishna! They've taken American POWs!", I think to myself: "Wow, less than 20 versus 30,000+. I'd say we're beating the point spread."

Compared to Iraqi Freedom, Case White, Operation Cobra and Bagration were close-run things...

What did people think this was going to be? A friggin' bloodless Playstation game? :confused:

[DeltaElite]

I knew people would freak as soon as soldiers started coming home in body bags.
Every loss is sad, but that is the nature of war.
As a society we are soft pampered spoiled brats.
Fortunately there is an element that is still hard and willing to do what needs to be done to protect the spoiled brats that make up the majority of our society.

[Greg L]

What did people think this was going to be? A friggin' bloodless Playstation game?

For the most part, yes.

Compared to most any other war in history, we are doing incredibly well. (Gulf War I being the exception, we never really found out about the #'s of Iraqis blown up or burried in the trenches when the bulldozer tanks rolled through.)

Greg

[Airwolf]

What did people think this was going to be? A friggin' bloodless Playstation game?

Yes, I'm very much afraid that a lot of people did.

Nothing more that a reflection of a Nation that has become terrified of many, many things. It disgusts me, but I'm not surprised by any of it.

The soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines being sent to war are an incredibly valuable resource. Our leaders know this, even if the anti-American types think they are just mindless baby killers. So far, what we've gained is SO far out of proportion to what we've spent it's incredible.

These whining morons have no idea of just how amazing this all has been. Well, that's to be expected of people that don't study or learn from history (except to revise it to support their worldview).

[ahenry]

I completely agree but I am still reminded of Robert E. Lee’s immortal words:

It is well that war is so horrible, lest we grow fond of it.



(Of course these casualty numbers are hardly the “horrible” to which he referred, but the point remains)

[XLMiguel]

Thanks, Sean. Five days in, 50 miles from Baghdad - we ain't doing too bad. The hard part is yet to come, of course, but for those who think it was going to be a 'cakewalk' (whatever the hell that is), has never been a combat soldier or has a remote idea of what war is about.

TV is too sterile, and it allows too many candy-assed whiners second-guess a situation they have no skin in from a very limited perspective, aided by the 'embedded press' who spend way too much time talking about themselves rather than reporting what's going on. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those humps haven't figured out that it's not about them, they're supposed to be there to report the news, not be the news.:fire:

Ooops, now I'm ranting, too much TV, too much caffeine, too late.

[Sean Smith]

Actually, we are doing BETTER than the 1st Gulf War so far. Total casualties in that war for the U.S. were about 268. Based on news reports, I don't think we are even near 100 total yet.

That said, I personally would be (pleasantly) surprised if we don't lose more lives in this war. The Iraqis are, frankly, fighting a bit smarter than they were before, and are more blatantly violating the laws of land warfare just to inflict casualties on the U.S. (e.g., pretending to surrender as a set-up for ambushes, shooting at us from hospitals, etc.). On the other hand, I think that Franks is persuing an even smarter strategy than Schwarzkopf did in 1991.

[Jeff White]

What did people think this was going to be? A friggin' bloodless Playstation game?

Yes Tamara, that's exactly what they think. Unfortunately this is one of the byproducts of our otherwise successful volunteer force. The percentage of our population who has any experience with the military is smaller every year. Add to that, the fact that our leaders sell technology as a solution to every tactical problem and what are the sheeple supposed to think?

We have made remarkable progress considering the forces that we have in place. The big test is coming in the next few days. I think that the proponents of air power and bloodless war (for us) are about to find that technology hasn't quite taken us there yet. They received a setback a year ago in Anaconda, and I fear that they are about to find out the hard way that precision air strikes alone won't win wars...Sometimes it takes brute force...

Jeff

[Standing Wolf]

...I fear that they are about to find out the hard way that precision air strikes alone won't win wars...

Depends what you're using for bombs, I'd say.

[Monkeyleg]

These same "whiners" have lost track of history. One Letter to the Editor in our local rag the other day complained about our use of high-tech weaponry.

Well, let's see. If we'd had the ordinance in 1944 that we have now, we would probably only have lost two or three GI's at Normandy. In fact, we probably could have eliminated the Third Reich with only a few hundred civilian casualties.

Where do these people come from?

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. These are the same people who advise female rape victims to lie back and enjoy it. :barf:

[Jeff White]

Monkeyleg said:

Well, let's see. If we'd had the ordinance in 1944 that we have now, we would probably only have lost two or three GI's at Normandy. In fact, we probably could have eliminated the Third Reich with only a few hundred civilian casualties.

Dick, you don't really believe that do you? Precision air delivered munitions are great, but they certainly wouldn't have allowed us to have landed at Normandy with almost zero casualties. Fox News just reported that over 80% of the ordnance we've dropped has been precision munitions and we've already taken more casualties then you said we would have at Normandy with them. And we haven't face anything near the layered defenses that defended the beaches at Normandy. You don't happen to own a lot of stock in Boeing do you? ;)

Jeff - Believer in the overwhelming force doctrine

[Greg L]

Fox News just reported that over 80% of the ordnance we've dropped has been precision munitions

On Friday I was on the road and listening to the radio. The only thing that I found was an ABC feed with Peter Jennings talking to a reporter that was in Baghdad watching the bombs hit across the river.

Peter to a very shaken reporter, "I'm sure that you will be glad to know that 90% of the bombs that are being dropped are laser guided"

Reporter (who sounded like he wished that he had gone downstairs to the bunker), "Actually Peter, it is the 10% that I'm worried about right now."

Peter shut up. :D Got to love live radio to put them back in their place.

Greg

[Dannyboy]

Something else to consider about the way the Iraqis are fighting. Thay didn't get the crap pounded out of them for 40 days and nights before the ground troops rolled in. That pretty much demoralized them in the last war. Of course, I'm sure there's much more to it than that.

[sm]

Thanks, it needed to be expressed.
A rant...?
Sounds like Reality to me.

[Drjones]

*hangs head in embarrasment*

Sean, you are right, and I agree with you completely.

Please keep in mind that I am only 22, and haven't really "lived though" a war yet. (I was only 11 or so during the first gulf war, obviously)

I am guilty of adding to the "rant" threads you mention.

Thanks for putting it in perspective.

ahenry made a very good point with his quote, but we will always need men like you around to keep us in check.


Drjones

[WilderBill]

I expect that we could have had fewer killed up to this point if we had a little less concern for the poor Iraqi concripts trying to surrender and we could have had more devistation of government facilities in Baghdad if we had less concern for civilians.
I'm glad we have been able to lose so few and harm so few civilians.
I expect that to all change now that the Republican Gaurds are between us and Baghdad.
If they decide to use chemical weapons, then things will get real interesting, real fast. Dubya has stated that use of WMD will probably get a nuke in response.
My own guess is that there might be some fuel air bombs to burn up the chemicals (and the folks firing them) and maybe some MOABs to make them wonder if we have started dropping nukes.
It's just as well that I'm not running the show. I think I might have vaporized Baghdad first, and then asked if anybody wanted to surrender before I get serious. :scrutiny:

[cuchulainn]

As I said yesterday in a similar rant: the low number of casualties are not "setbacks" no matter how many times Wolf Blitzer says they are. And imagine how the a 24/7 media with live webcams atop the Normandy cliffs would have played the invasion into a defeat after just 30 minutes -- after all, we took casualties.

[Joe Demko]

Casualties for the US are remarkably low when you look at them as percentages. I'd still like you to walk up to the wife or mother of one of those (few) casualties and deliver this same rant to her face and to the faces of his children, if any. You were in the army? Big deal, so was I. Neither of us is now. Since we aren't the ones in the fields of fire and aren't going to be, it's pretty easy for us to rant about everybody else being soft, spoiled, whining babies who can't stand a few acceptable casualties. No, we aren't losing militarily and we aren't going to lose. I would like you to remember, sir, that those numbers you quote are, or rather were, real live people who had lives and families.

[Bulldozer]

Sheesh, every general from Scipio Africanus to Patton would give one of something he had two of -- eyes,lungs,kidneys, etc. you pick -- to have had a campaign go as well as this one has.

[cuchulainn]

Golgo,

No one is forgetting that. No one is saying the casualties are not tragic.

However, we're rejecting the idea -- now in the media -- that we are facing "setbacks." Rather, we are facing amazingly low casualties, and it borders(*) on anti-U.S. propaganda to characterize them as "setbacks."

Go to www.alltheweb.com and click on the "news" button. Now type in "setbacks." You'll get hundreds of stories from around the world about our "setbacks" this weekend. Now type in "resistance" and "rethinking strategy" and similar terms. Geez, it looks like we're losing this war.

The Washington Post has an op-ed this morning about how our command leadership has made the classic mistake in its "shock and awe" strategy of fighting the last war. The author is writing about the strategy as if it is a failure not only before it has failed, but while it is GOING WELL. Huh? Did that guy write 90% of this piece six months ago in anticipation, and the Post trotted it out with a few "current" paragraphs as soon as we suffered a few casualties? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21783-2003Mar24.html



(*) I say it borders on propaganda because I don't give most media that much credit -- they're just trumpeting the scariest possible version of a story to increase readership/viewership.

[Sean Smith]

Golgo-13,

You have managed to spectacularly miss my point, and be laughably self-righteous, all at once. :rolleyes:

War kills real people, you say? NO S :cuss: !

HINT: I was talking about people, who have experienced no hardship whatsoever, being reduced to quivering mounds of jell-o by the slightest hint that a war might have consequences other than tickertape parades. :rolleyes:

[BigG]

More people are killed in car accidents daily in a city the size of the forces deployed, I'll guess.

You have to remember the media is a minute by minute thing. If there is nothing new to tell, they make something up. Also, the reporters get jaded to the status quo just like everybody else. Once they get bored they start to focus even more than they usually do on the negative.

Whoever said Playstation mentality summed it up pretty well.

[Joe Demko]

Sean Smith,
I missed nothing from your post, sirrah. You are a self-righteous boor blatting about how soft those people are from your own position of safety. The fact that you dressed up in green at some time doesn't overwhelm me. Since you aren't sacrificing anything in particular of which I am aware, it seems to me that you are a tad too willing to tell everyone else to have a stiff upper lip. Good day to you.

[BigG]

Sean (I think) is talking about the couch potatoes sucking up the news back here and getting disillusioned that it don't happen as fast as a playstation game; not the troops who are doing their best out on the line.

[longeyes]

I don't think the real problem, if there is one, is that Americans at home are "too soft" but that Americans running this war are "too compassionate," worried overmuch about political appearances and misplaced notions of high-morality combat while real American kids are facing bullets and chemicals. Perhaps we need, or our leaders need, to "liberate" our minds from such comforting illusions and get on with winning by using what makes us militarily superior. We can demonstrate our rectitude and humanitarianism when all the guns are silenced.

[OF]

Well said, Sean. The media hand wringing and the general whining in the population is making me sick. Show some spine. The families of dead soldiers and POW's the media is putting on the tube, who have actually lost their sons and daughters, have more spine and class than the freaking talking heads.

We are all adults here and I doubt there is alot of confusion on what the word 'dead' means.

Welcome to planet earth, CNN.

We are watching a historic event. This is going to change the face of warfare on this planet. The bar has been raised. The stakes are high.

- Gabe

[twoblink]

Someone back me up here..

I venture to say; as I type this; today, more gang members have died in LA then in the war. I say it with confidence, and I'm almost positive I'm right.

Wars are not pretty; if they were; they'd be called parades!!

Somebody needed to say it. I for one, think anything under 3000, and 3 weeks, meant a girl scout fight..

Someone had to say it. I can't believe how they went about saying "We lost a few!!" It's war, people die... Sad, sucks, POW's will go threw hell, but it's true... God bless them, and..

Just needed to say, they've at least got 1 person supporting them in Taiwan..

[Sean Smith]

Sean (I think) is talking about the couch potatoes sucking up the news back here and getting disillusioned that it don't happen as fast as a playstation game; not the troops who are doing their best out on the line.

Bingo. Was that so hard to understand? ;)

Golgo-13 can put words in my mouth all he wants about my bashing combat troops and widows :rolleyes: , but that doesn't make any of it make the least bit of sense.

ANOTHER HINT: with the sacrifice of (very little) life, has come spectacular successes. How does the media, and some people here, downplaying what their sacrifices accomplished with all this "woe is us" talk, do anything to honor them? :rolleyes:

The fact that you dressed up in green at some time doesn't overwhelm me.

You, of course, have no reason to know anything about my prior service. I'd suggest you not comment on things about which you are perfectly ignorant. I won't comment on this topic any further.

[M1911]

Yes, casualties have been relatively light so far.

That doesn't stop me from being worried sick about my best friend's eldest son, Christopher, who is in the 101st. Christopher has helped me build garden beds, helped his dad rebuild our soffits and gutters, and fed our cats while we were on vacation. He's a good kid rapidly turning into quite a man. Last I spoke with his parents, they still hadn't heard from him since he deployed. I've sent him a couple care packages, but who knows whether or not he's received them. If that makes me a sissy, so be it.

Our casualties have been light, but each and every one represents incredible sacrifice by the soldiers, their families, and friends.

[D_Burchfield]

longeyes,

That was well said.

Sean Smith does have a point in that some "blissninnies" are whining about a very small percentage of casualties.

Most of the military people running this operation have not participated in a "REAL WAR" up until this point. Considering that a typical military career has a duration of 20-30 years, there may be only a few in the top ranks who experienced action in Vietnam. They should set aside their political notions and complete the job at hand by using all and every means at their disposal.

Kick some serious butt!!

Just my $.02

[Intune]

Casualties from various wars:

WWI- 1 in 15
WWII- 1 in 15
Korea- 1 in 13
Vietnam- I am not positive but I think it was back to 1 in 15
Gulf War - 1 in 1,500

Some are so accustomed to seeing "movie" war via a videotape or DVD in which a conflict is begun and resolved in two hours or less that our nonetheless astounding results in the last five or six days begins to stretch their focus and patience. It may be misplaced but I have faith in the American people seeing this war through to its inevitable conclusion. DESPITE the best efforts of CNN and their sister network Al Jezeera to undermine our resolve.

I too have served. When one joins the combat arm of our military one of the first things you had better resolve before taking that step is a willingness to die for your country. My sister or mom's grief over that potential death was not part of the equation. Selfish? Perhaps. My oldest brother got killed after serving two tours in Vietnam. The fact that his Braniff airline flight plowing into Arkansas soil coming home from Ft. Hood was the cause of his death as opposed to a combatants hand did nothing to mitigate or alleviate the pain we felt as a family upon learning of his death. A senseless or needless death is a waste. Dying for a valiant cause brings honor to ones self in addition to family. Perhaps I am just old fashioned.

[Porter Rockwell]

And I'm Don Sutherland!
Suddenly almost everyone has become the Kings drones with no outside the box thought allowed.
If my sources are correct both pipelines in Iraq have been secured by the Brits which is appropriate since they do have the world monopoly on oil.
Does anyone recall the events leading to the Brit oil wells in the waters of Vietnam?
Anyone remember the movie Lawrence of Arabia?
Has anyone studied the Euru-Russian oil routes that we have effectively blockaded in Bosnia, Afganistan and now Iraq?
As American we're spoon fed the images of always being the good guy in the white hat and to root for the underdog that's attacked by the big bad bully. Any wonder people are a tad confused?
If in fact the northern and southern pipelines have been secured why continue to assault a city of five million souls that's already burning?
Using our Presidents alleged reasons for attacking Iraq can we as gun owners and CCW holders blow away anyone we deem as a possible threat?
Best,

[DeltaElite]

I am deeply saddened by the loss of each and every allied soldier and my heart goes out to their friends, families and colleagues.

I do agree that some folks are considering small numbers of soldiers killed to be "significant setbacks" to the war.
They are not, but they are no less tragic of a loss.

[pax]

Good discussion so far, but needs a little reminder.

From the forum rules: 4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
If you need to insult each other, take it to PM or email. Don't inflict it on the rest of us.

pax

It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather, we should thank God that such men lived. -- George S. Patton, Jr

I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen men coughing out thier gassed lungs. I have seent he dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen 200 limping, exhausted men come out of line -- the survivors of a regiment of 1,000 that went forward 48 hours before. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

[cuchulainn]

Anyone remember the movie Lawrence of Arabia? Yeah! We'd better email CENTCOM leaders to make sure they know not to advance our troops and horses on 35 MPH 19th-Century steam trains lest Peter O'Toole and Omar Sharif blow up the tracks! :rolleyes:

[Shalako]

Using our Presidents alleged reasons for attacking Iraq can we as gun owners and CCW holders blow away anyone we deem as a possible threat?

This one falls a little short. Its more like the FBI have rated this guy as public enemy number one and the LEO types can shoot to kill. Not just Joe Blow with a itchy trigger finger. Think about it.....

As for Sean's rant, I greatly appreciate that there are still thinkers like this in America and especially on this board. If there weren't..... the remainder of the nation would be a bunch of whimpering ninnies ready for domination by the next bully to round the corner.

[Intune]

"As American we're spoon fed the images of always being the good guy in the white hat and to root for the underdog that's attacked by the big bad bully. Any wonder people are a tad confused?"

Intune- Just the ones that don't understand that the Iraqi people are the underdog to Sad Damn's bullying. I'm pleased that you get it.


"If in fact the northern and southern pipelines have been secured why continue to assault a city of five million souls that's already burning?"

Intune- It's about liberating a people, not their oil. The only burning going on in Bagdad is the oil trench fires set by these geniuses which is doing nothing but poisoning civilians. Not that his regime needs the practice. IF it were about oil and not this despicable creatures demise, we would stop. But we won't and I for one think that's a GREAT thing!


"Using our Presidents alleged reasons for attacking Iraq can we as gun owners and CCW holders blow away anyone we deem as a possible threat?"

Intune- Sure, when they are killing your family through starvation, shredders, gas and bullets, I would think one would be remiss to sit idly by in the face of these atrocities when armed and able to stop it.

[Monkeyleg]

Jeff White, you're right. I'm a fast typist (or at least I type faster than I think ;) ).

I'll stand by the intent of my statement, though, which is that the letter-writer is an idiot. If we can win with fewer casualties on our side by using these weapons, that's good. And if, in the process, we can minimize civilian casualties, that's even better.

[MeekandMild]

Since WWII Air Force training death rates for flying officers from first takeoff to placement with an operational unit have run (ballpark figures) between 1% and 2%. Operational death rates have run as high as 80% in some squadrons, with rates above 50% in many squadrons, most notably the heavy bombardment groups of WWII.

So we are doing pretty durn good in comparison for this war for the Air Force casualties at least.

Air Force enlisted troops have had better living conditions than other services as a rule. This is with the exception of enlisted flight crewmen.

[Tamara]

Air Force enlisted troops have had better living conditions than other services as a rule. This is with the exception of enlisted flight crewmen.

This is because Air Force enlisted men (and Navy carrier crews) have figured out that the civilized way to fight a war is to sit back, sip coffee, and throw officers at the enemy. ;)

[Peetmoss]

I know war isn't pretty. I have seen my uncles GSW in the chest from Vietnam and my father at the wall picking out names of kids he went to school with from the wall.

I have nothing but respect for all our soldiers. I also feel for every soldiers family. Most of all the families of the dead soilders and the captive soilders.

My only hope is that the Goverment doesn't waste the lives of our sons and daughters for political reasons. Once the president makes the decision to go to war he should let the military make the decisions not the politicians. Politicitions kill soilders for what people think that day.

Soilders will die I hope it's alot more theres then ours.

[pax]

Tamara,

May I steal that for my files?

pax

The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is. -- Mary Pettibone Poole

[MeekandMild]

This is because Air Force enlisted men (and Navy carrier crews) have figured out that the civilized way to fight a war is to sit back, sip coffee, and throw officers at the enemy. :D :D :D :D :D

HAR! The quote of the Month!!!

Not quite true, however. One of my kids was on a carrier during the last Iraqui war. His bunkroom had 30 sailers, each one who was allowed to spend 8 hours per day in the bunk. There were three shifts in a room with 10 bunks. Try to get ten minutes more sleep and you/re liable to get thrown oout into the hall. :uhoh:

[cuchulainn]

I heard a report that confidence in the war still is high, though fewer people think it will be over quickly. I think it was a Gallup poll. Maybe someone else can find a link.

Tamara, great quip!

[trapshooter]

Air Force enlisted men (and Navy carrier crews) have figured out that the civilized way to fight a war is to sit back, sip coffee, and throw officers at the enemy.

Tamara, I really needed that line years ago when I hung out with ground-pounders and Air Force types.:evil:

On a more serious note:

Caualties bad. Winning good.

We honor our dead by winning, not by whining.

The people (troops) I have seen interviewed on the ground in Iraq are impressive, and support my faith that free countries can still provide such men and women. They are, uniformly across the spectrum (US, UK, AUS, Poles, etc.), as good as thier brethren that went before. In some cases, better. This has nothing to do with toadying up to the party line. They are good soldiers, and have done and continue to do, an outstanding job. We should quit whining and pay them thier due.