[Checkman]

We had a homicide last night. The suspect shot the victim with a 25 acp at very close range. The victim lived for no more then a couple of minutes. It was a perfect shot and the conditons were just right, but that little tiny round did the job. I'm not advocating the 25 as an effective round. I'm just saying that any caliber can do the job - sometimes. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but if someone should threaten you with a 25 don't laugh it off either. FYI.

[Jeff White]

I would guess that .22s and .25s have killed more people in murders then any other calibers. Not that they are so effective, but because they are so cheap and thus more common.

Doesn't matter if you die instantly on the scene or hours/days later, you're just as dead...

Jeff

[MrTuffPaws]

I find it really strange that humans can be killed by poking a .22 inch hole in them. Yet we have the odd person jump out of airplanes without cutes and still live. Go figure.

[ulflyer]

Don't know about humans, but I've seen enough pigs (during fall slaughter) shot between the eyes with a .22 short drop like they were hit with a sledgehammer that I wouldn't ever want to be on the receiving end.

[chris in va]

Well when you look at it this way, the projectile is still travelling the same speed if not faster than any other normal handgun cartridge, it's just smaller.

A 40 grain .22 running over 1000fps is gonna do some damage if fired into the head.

[Kamicosmos]

I saw some cops-type show once. SOme MASSIVE black dude broke into an old ladies home. She managed to shoot him in the butt with a .22 derringer as he ran out the door.

Police were cracking up about how funny it was...

...till they found his body a few blocks away, bled out.

Moral of story, a gun will kill. Might not pack a 22 or 25 by choice, but if that's all you got, it can get the job done.

[Technosavant]

The only problem is that the victim lived a few minutes after the shooting.

Nobody suggests that the smaller calibers won't work, it is just that they may not work fast enough to make a difference- a couple minutes with a knife might mean both the shootee and the shooter end up on adjacent slabs in the morgue.

But of course, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

[Checkman]

Yes the victim did live for a few minutes after he was shot in the chest. He was asked if he had just been shot. He said that yes he had been shot, got in his car to drive to the hospital, drove a few feet, passed out and went off the street. He died in the car - just as the paramedics were pulling up. If he had been intent on taking his assailant with him after being shot then yes he had more then enough time.

So I guess the lesson of the story is that ones opponent is never done until they totally stop. However long that might be.

[Rockstar]

Just to add to the sense of this thread, there are also a few cases of death by BB and pellet guns.

[CAnnoneer]

From a medical perspective, what kills is not the wound itself but the resulting internal haemorrhage. An adult has only about 5 liters of blood, so bleeding out is very easy. Most of the internal organs are very well supplied with blood, and that is why puncturing them is so effective in causing a quick if not instantaneous death. Even a .22 hole is big enough for that in most cases so long as it is in the torso. By comparison, much more severe wounds will not be lethal in the limbs unless a major blood vessel gets popped (which is what must have happened to Mr Grandma-Beater).

These reasons make piercing weapons by far more lethal than slashing and bludgeoning weapons and would also explain why people miraculously survive falls, but not a .22 in the torso. Ultimately, it is not inaccurate to think of firearms as piercing weapons which happen to have long range and other characteristics.

[mattman the gun fan]

im gonna go ahead and say the bb gun deaths were in the head area.Mainly the temple or through the eyes mouth or maybe even the nose?well the nose doesnt seem impossible.My friend shot himself in the groin with one of those things.

[Browns Fan]

Quote:
"Just to add to the sense of this thread, there are also a few cases of death by BB and pellet guns."

I have often wondered of such a thing happenning, do you know of any cases?

[RyanM]

im gonna go ahead and say the bb gun deaths were in the head area.Mainly the temple or through the eyes mouth or maybe even the nose?well the nose doesnt seem impossible.My friend shot himself in the groin with one of those things.

Nose is a definite possibility. I remember reading about someone who got brain-damaged when they caught a fencing foil up the nostril. Survived, but with massive personality changes.

[P95Carry]

I recall a case in UK - back IIRC in 90's, when an air rifle was discharged close to a kid - who was hit in the chest - and died. I have to imagine that pellet went thru intercostally - and penetrated sufficient to cause a major bleed. I am thinking aorta but - even a .177 travelling at 800 fps let's say - is gonna take a bit of stopping.

I am trying to find some pics I have (somewhere) of penetration tests I did with air weapon pellets in modelling clay - it was somewhat of an eyeopener!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I posted in a thread way back - some of these pics - HERE (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=43643&highlight=pellets+clay) but the pics may soon disappear with their hosting - I will place them on my own server and update links.

[JamisJockey]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/691400/posts

Very first one that came up on a yahoo search
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Mesa Teen Dies From BB Gun Shot
CBS Five Arizona ^


Posted on 05/29/2002 12:04:57 PM PDT by chance33_98



Mesa Teen Dies From BB Gun Shot

BB Gun Death Mesa, May 29 (AP) -- The Maricopa County Medical Examiner says the death of a 15-year-old Mesa boy shot by a BB gun was an accident.

The boy was shot Sunday by a gas-propelled BB gun.

The BB hit Oscar Adrian Granillo's eye and ripped its way through the skull and lodged in his brain.

The Mesa Junior High School student was shot at his home. He was removed from life support Monday.

Family members say Oscar's friend Jose Javier Rodriguez was holding the gun when it fired.

The Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan Network says that every day, an average of 44 children are treated for injuries from BB and pellet guns.

And every year, four people die from those injuries.

[newfalguy101]

Any gun that launches a projectile can be lethal.

I remember reading a story about a cop who died from a .25 in the arm , the explanation was: He had soo convinced himself that getting shot was ALWAYS fatal and if her were to get shot he would die, therefore when hit, his mind shutdown his body. Strange indeed.

Around Christmas time 20/20 like to re-run a story from several years ago about a kid being killed by an air gun.

As part of their story, the took a pump air-rifle and pumped the snot out of it like 20 pumps and ran i across a chronograph.

Then they took a 4 inch .38 with wadcutters , ran it across the chrono and lo and behold the air rifle was faster and therefore MORE DEADLY.

[Rockstar]

Newfalguy: One would hope that your last paragraph isn't to be taken literally, and was meant as a joke!?

[The_Shootist]

Well I'll be running some rounds of Aguila Super Max .22 LR (ie rated at 1750 fps on a 30 gr bullet - although thats likely obtained from a rifle) to see how it performs in my Beretta Cheetah (which seems to like the high velocity stuff - Stingers/Velocitors etc).

9 rounds of that delivered close range could very well give someone pause. I was toying with the idea of using it as a house defense gun ( I live in an apt) as I'm afraid my SP 101 stuffed with the FBI load will go through a couple of walls with a miss, discomforting the neighbors :eek:

[buddyRoland]

Hope the perp still go to jail.

[happy old sailor]

i have shot many critters over the years and came to the conclusion that the bullet does not cause death, it is the injury, and as someone has pointed out, death comes sooner or later, depending on a variety of factors.

with a human, you hope immediately and with a deer also as it may save a mile or more of tracking. i have avoided tracking by careful shooting. with a BG, there may not be time to make shot placement primary. this makes practical practice imperative if you are aerious about SD.

enjoyed the comments. everyone seemed to be on the same wavelength. anything i said was known to all before i kibitzed.

[cookekdjr]

I had one case where the perp used a .25. He killed two fellas in a drug deal gone bad at Atlanta's most exclusive shopping mall.
He shot one guy several times in the head and chest at point blank range (they were in the same car). The other he shot once in the under-arm ("victim" was pointing a gun at perp and had his arm raised). The "lucky" shot went under the arm and struck no bones in its easy path through lungs, heart, and major arteries. The bullet didn't travel very far but since it went under the arm, it didn't have to in order to cause massive internal damage.
I've had one other case with a small caliber. Perp shot his brother approx 20 times with a six-shot .22 lr revolver. Yes, he reloaded several times. Brother was unarmed, and ran out of the house, chased by perp. Brother looked like he was swatting flies as he was peppered over and over again with tiny bullets. Died on the scene...eventually.

[newfalguy101]

Newfalguy: One would hope that your last paragraph isn't to be taken literally, and was meant as a joke!?


If you are talking about this:

"Around Christmas time 20/20 like to re-run a story from several years ago about a kid being killed by an air gun.

As part of their story, the took a pump air-rifle and pumped the snot out of it like 20 pumps and ran it across a chronograph.

Then they took a 4 inch .38 with wadcutters , ran it across the chrono and lo and behold the air rifle was faster and therefore MORE DEADLY.

I am dead nuts serious, I am only reporting what I SAW on the TV.

Sadly enough my mom actually believed the story EVEN after I told her the "test" was total bunk and EXPLAINED why it was wrong :(

[Checkman]

The shooter was caught this morning. The fight was over $200.00 by the way.

[newfalguy101]

Killed over $200.00 :confused:

What a waste.

[rabbit]

These reasons make piercing weapons by far more lethal than slashing and bludgeoning weapons

I agree. But a whack on the head will kill you pretty good to.

[unspellable]

I know of two cases in which an elephant was killed with a single shot from a 22 LR.

In the first case, the shooter intended to sting the elephant but the bullet entered the body just behind the front leg and found a major artery. The elephant walked off and piled up within a hundred yards.

The second case was a succesful attempt to duplicate the first. The shooter had a back up man with a heavy rifle. He succeeded in getting close, aiming carefully, and placing the bullet in the same location. The elphant ran and piled up in two or three hundred yards.

[newfalguy101]

do you by chance have a link or other documentation to confirm those stories??

I find it difficult to believe a .22 could penetrate enough to kill an elephant, even by fluke.

[rabbit]

I tend to think of the .22 LR as not being very lethal. I know it will kill big animals in certain circumstances but an elephant? I dont know. I know one of the largest grizzlies ever shot was killed by a woman with a .22LR semi-auto rifle defending her children- emptied the gun. Whether the bear just finally decided it hurt and walked away to die later I dont know.

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, I gotta not belief the elephant .22lr stories. The first story reminds me a Gary Larson "Far Side" cartoon where two hunters are looking at an elephant on its back with an arrow in its chest and one hunter saying to the other hunter something like, "We need to remember that spot"

Would it really be possible that elephants shot with a .22 lr would drop within 100-300 yards? Let's play with the numbers and hopefully I didn't screw up any of the math too bad.

It may be possible that a person with a .22lr got off a lucky shot and hit an artery, but I would doubt a person could replicate the same shot intentionally, especially since the artery in question isn't visible to the hunter. Even if the hunter was able to place the shot on the same location of the skin, there certainly would be no guarentee the .22 would hit the artery as bullets can change courses when passing through different densities of materials, as would be the case with elephant hide.

I would also doubt that a .22 lr would punch a large enough hole in the artery after passing through the hide to cause the elephants to drop dead from blood loss in 100-300 yards. It might punch a .22 hole in the artery, but probably not have any significant power to shred the artery in order to cause massive blood loss.

An African elephant can weigh 16500 lbs. The blood of the elephant accounts for about 10% of that weight, or 1650 lbs. The normal walking speed of an elephant is about 7.5 mph. That translates to 13200 yards per hour and 220 yards per minute. So at normal walking speed, and elephant would cover 100 yards in less than one minute. I will use one minute as the travel time even though the elephant might have taken flight and covered the 100 yards in less time.

Let's say that an elephant will collapse with 20% blood loss, or 310 lbs of blood. That translates to more than 5.1 lbs. per second. Even with just 10%, that would still be more than 2.5 lbs. per second. Blood is slightly more dense than water and water weigh about 8.3 lbs per gallon. At 2.5 lbs of loss per second, that would be in excess of 1 gallon every 4 seconds. That would be a huge amount of blood loss!

If the travel distances are correct, then the elephants would have lost blood at such a rate that there should have been arterial spurting over a long distance. So the .22 sized hole would be putting out more water than the typical 3/4" water hose.

------

I tried surfing for data substantiating a .22 lr successfully being used to kill an elephant and could not find a thing other than some references mentioning the 'myth' of killing elephants with a .22 lr. Supposedly the feat was documented by Peter Capstick, but in the accounts I find online, none mention the distances at which the elephants finally fell.

[nextjoe]

Capstick wrote up the elephant story in one of his books. I didn't know him personally, but a lot of people have said that he wouldn't always let the truth get in the way of a good story. Ross Seyfried went so far as to call his books "fiction." So, I'm pretty reluctant to believe him about the .22 killing elephants.

[DHart]

As for self-defense purposes.... dead or completely incapacitated RIGHT NOW is what really matters...

...the perp dying some minutes or hours later probably won't do you much good at all as in that time any strong or armed perp can easily take you out before expiring himself.

Given the option, I would never attempt to rely on a .22, .25, .32, or even .380. I consider a 9mm the bare minimum caliber for defense. (Yes, of course, if all I had was a .22, you can bet I'd try like the devil to rely on it if I had to!) ;)

[Checkman]

Thanks DHart. Your observation is on the money. Remember what I said about the victim. When he was shot he told his companion that he had just been shot.The victim then said that he needed to go to the hospital. They got into his car with the victim getting behind the wheel. The victim started the car and actually drove several feet before passing out and hitting the concrete curb. If he had been a different or harder personality he probably could have taken that 25 from the suspect and put it where the sun don't shine before going to the great beyond.

[unspellable]

The story of the 22 LR on elephant was one of those things that sticks in your mind long after you forgot where you saw it. I suppose knowing who told the story would add or subtract from the belivability of the story as the case may be. But strange things do happen. On the other hand I would not care to face down an angry elephant with a 22 LR. Even if it only ran 100 yards, that's time enough to put you in a world of hurt.

There was also a story about an old bull pursuing two guys in the area of the border at the north end of Kenya. A poacher had put a musket ball in one of the old elaphant's tusks, and it had festered, driving the old bull mad. They had gotten away from the elephant but expected him back shortly. All they had was a small caliber centerfire, in the 22 to 270 range, with soft points. They pulled a bullet, loaded it backwards and made a head shot with the bullet base first.

[TimboKhan]

I got shot in the stomach with a 9mm in Desert Storm, and obviously I am still alive. More to the point, while obviously in a very bad way, I was what I would deem combat effective for a good 3-5 minutes before things got really, really dicey for me, and that was with a hole in my stomach, several holes in various parts of my intestines and a completly destroyed kidney. As one guy said earlier, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement....

[RecoilRob]

Back in the late '80's when I was in Florida a Sheriff told me a story about a BB gun killing he had investigated. When they arrived on scene, they found a husband crying and saying that he had accidentally killed his wife.

Strange thing was when they examined the wife. She had welts and bruises all over her body....some very fresh and others obviously much older and in various states of healing. All were on her torso where they would be hidden from view with normal clothing.

The husband explained that he regularly chased her around the house shooting her with the BB gun in preparation for.....uh....marital activities. Seems that she ducked when he wasn't expecting it and put one in her eye. Which must have made it to the brain and she died. Sick....and sad.

[1911Tuner]

I can believe that a pellet rifle can be more lethal than a .38 wadcutter loaded to the typical wadcutter velocities.

I was a witness to a wadcutter shooting in which the guy's young nephew shot him at fairly close range...less than 30 feet...target angle 90 degrees
give or take. The bullet struck him in the thigh. He yelped a little and peeled off his pants. The bullet was just below flush, so he walked a short distance to the house...squeezed the bullet out like a zit...poured peroxide into the hole and filled it with some anti-bacterial ointment...and went back to the impromptu pistol match in his back yard. The young lad was excused from the afternoon's activities. No complications arose as a result of the wound, and he went to work the next day with a weekend story that topped all the rest.

[CAnnoneer]

and that was with a hole in my stomach, several holes in various parts of my intestines and a completly destroyed kidney. As one guy said earlier, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement....

My hat off to you and your maker, sir!

I'd imagine most of us here would have curled up and cried for mommy after such wounds... :D

But, you should know that you are literally living a second life. :) A kidney is so well supplied with blood that it is a very good placement for internal haemorrhage (and also hurts like hell). Could you please give us more details about the medical response, etc.? You must have had some hell of combat medics and/or evac.

[Cosmoline]

It may be possible that a person with a .22lr got off a lucky shot and hit an artery, but I would doubt a person could replicate the same shot intentionally, especially since the artery in question isn't visible to the hunter.

Give me a CZ 452 ZKM, point to the mark and I'll drop your elephant. Bigger animals aren't always harder to kill. Bigger bodies mean bigger organs and a bigger target. If you know where to hit, you can drop them with anything that will reach the sweet spot. How many thousands of huge tuskers did Bell drop with a 7mm Mauser or 6.5?

[ACORN]

A kid I went to school with was shot in the back of the head with a .25. The slug got under the skin, but didn't penetrate the skull. It slid between the scalp and skull and finally stopped at the top of his head. It don't know if it makes any difference but he was riding in an open convertible, the shooter was in a car behind him. so the .25 was travelling into the wind and "catching up" to a target that was moving away from it.

[RyanM]

A kid I went to school with was shot in the back of the head with a .25. The slug got under the skin, but didn't penetrate the skull. It slid between the scalp and skull and finally stopped at the top of his head. It don't know if it makes any difference but he was riding in an open convertible, the shooter was in a car behind him. so the .25 was travelling into the wind and "catching up" to a target that was moving away from it.

According to conservation of momentum, the bullet would "gain" velocity from being fired from a moving vehicle. If both cars were moving at the same speed, the bullet's impact velocity would be pretty much the same as if they were still, the same distance away.

[CARRY'IN]

I saw a clip of game wardens culling an elephant herd in africa. Never forget it. A game warden had an FAL and he dropped a couple of them with one shot each (one was charging him). You could see the dust puff from the bullet hitting dead center betwixt the eyes and the bull dropping. I imagine he was shooting ball to. It is where you hit them but a .22LR? I have alot of trouble believing it.

[foghornl]

I can't locate any info on it right now, but there was a case here in Cleveland a couple of years back.

Some kids were playing outside, I think they were climbing in some fruit trees, some wise-@zz drove by and plugged one of the kids with a BB gun. BB went between ribs, from the back and punctured kid's heart. End of story.

It wasn't one of the low-velocity BB guns [less than 400 FPS] like a Daisy Red Ryder or Timberwolf, but one of the multi-pump jobs...not sure which one, though.

[TimboKhan]

Well, first off let me point out that I bled internally a TON. I forget the exact number of units of blood they had to run through me, but it was something like 150 or 160, and this was before I passed out. Basically, I was very, very lucky in that when I got shot, not only did my fellow Marines do exactly the right thing (plugged the holes, treated for shock, talked to me, etc..), but the battalion corpsmen were all within about 100 meters of where I was, coming back from a meeting, so I had particularly quick response from them. That was the good news. The bad news is that after being taken to the battalion aid station, it was discovered that there was no way to get a helicopter in to pick me up (sand blowing around, you see), so I had to ride in the back of a hummer, puking a pint or two of blood up every 90 seconds on the dot, about 50 miles to an Army prison station where they had a helipad. Interestingly, one of my oldest and best friends was serving in the Colorado National Guard at that very station. He didn't know it was me incoming, but he still remembers the day that the Marines (and Navy) came rolling in like bats out of hell with a wounded Marine (Me). Anyway, I was awake throughout that whole experience, I probably managed to stay concious for about 2 hours or so before I passed out (I asked later, and despite the enormous amount of blood being put into me, it was blood loss that did it). Anyway, it worked out, as I am not dead, and I am a big fan of that. I also gained a particularly high appreciation for Corpsmen, and also for Air Force medical people. Naval doctors operated on me and everything, but I convalesced in England for 2 weeks before being sent home at a place called Nocton Hall, which was ran by the Air Force. Anyway, thats the story.

[CAnnoneer]

Impressive! It's nice to know when you are in good hands. :)

[Checkman]

Well this has turned out to be a popular thread. More then I expected. How about another one. Last year we had a gangbanger killed in a driveby shooting. He saw his killers coming (he was in the front yard at 11:30 A.M.) and crouched down into a fetal position, facing away from the street and his killer. The shooter let go with 12 rounds and hit him once. The 9mm FMJ entered just to the left of the base of his spine and traveled upward. It stopped in the vicinity of his heart.

The dead man rose to his feet, walked approximately twenty feet to the front door of a nearby house, knocked on it and when the homeowner opened it he fell into her livingroom. He died about fifteen minutes later.

When the bullet was removed at his autopsy it was found to be perfect - no deformation whatsoever. Once again if he had been of a different mindset he could have caused alot of damge before expiring. It's been my experience that most gangbangers don't do too much when they finally take a round, except call 911 and then expect the state to pay their medical bills.

Incidentally the 25 was removed from the recent victim at his autopsy on Friday. It too was found to have no deformation. Just FYI guys.

[mec]

Looked through a police report about 35 years ago. Guy had shot the wife and two family dobermans with a .357s then stuck a .25 in his mouth. Exit through the top of his skull and he was drt.

Ran across a couple of stores in the American Rifleman "Armed Citizen". Home invaders shot on two different occasions. One fell down dead immediately and the other ran out into the front yard and dropped dead.

[El Tejon]

I have worked cases where minor calibers have bounced off skulls. I have worked cases where minor caliber pistols have dropped humans like wet socks in seemingly non-critical areas.

You just never know. :scrutiny:

[Double Naught Spy]

There are two confirmed cases in the colonial era in British East Africa. Capstick refers to both in one of his books (I have it somewhere), and Taylor also confirmed it. In both cases, the bullet hit behind the foreleg, where the tough hide is rubbed thin by friction between leg and body, and penetrated a major artery, so that the elephant bled to death internally. The first case was accidental, and the hunter reported it to a control officer, who couldn't believe it - so the two of them set out to repeat the exploit, and did so, to the demise of a second elephant.

Not recommended as a stopping caliber, however... :D

So the story is confirmed, but not the event. Neither Capstick or Pondoro Taylor witnessed the events themselves, certainly not the first accidental event. If Taylor wasn't the animal control officer of the second event and hence did not witness the event,

but both interviewed the guys who claimed that it happened?

The description of the shot location is very interesting, behind the foreleg where the tough hide is rubbed thin by friction between the leg and the body. There may be thin skin at that location, but it would not be due to being rubbed thin unless by some recent injury. Repeated epidermal abrasion will either result in injury to the skin (scrapes, rubbed raw, etc.) or callous formation. On many animals, maybe elephants for all I know, key locations of movent where a limb joins the body may necessitate the skin being more flexible in order for full movement to be accomplished. The skin isn't rubbed away, but develops as the thinner, more flexible layer.

So the forelimb rubbing against the body is going to be the 'armpit' of the animal and skin just fore and aft. It probably his thinnger there than elsewhere. You can find the same on humans, dogs, cats, and horses. I would guess it is thinner on an elephant as well.

That location, however, is not the optimal location denoted in Gary Larson's "The Far Side."

[MCgunner]

I read in an article about black bears in a hunting magazine once that (at that time) the record Canadian black bear was killed with a .22 LR. Two indian kids (pc=native American, I'm 1/16 cherokee so don't get offended) were walking home with a .22 when they saw a big bear. They hid behind a bush, the bear got even with them on the trail and stopped. Kid shot it in the skull and it dropped immediately. I forget how heavy the thing was, but it was huge.

Ever seen a .22 short "stun gun" used in a slaughter house? A hog don't know what hit him.

That said, I hunt rabbit and squirrel with a .22. I hunt larger critters with various centerfires. Self defense is .355" or larger unless a .22 is all I have. I try not to let that happen.

[gunfan]

I do not sell my "little" H&R revolvers chambered for the .32 S&W Long "short". :confused: Anyway, my 2 1/2" barreled Model 732 is exceptionally accurate at 50'. At "waltzing distances" placing a shot may be a bit easier. Admittedly, stress complicates things. However, the .32 S&W Long, properly loaded and reasonably well-placed, can "ruin a perp's day"... posthaste!

Robert Heinlein said it best, "Never frighten the 'little man' he will kill you!"

Scott

[carebear]

Just what if-ing on a "suppose it IS true" idea.

Any chance that elephant's bloodstream took the .22 through them big arteries into the brain where it lodged and stroked him out?

Unlikely a hunter would be too familiar with the mechanism of stroke and so would figure whatever blood loss there was, was enough.



Medical types,

I've always wondered how the blood (in people) gets into the throat/stomach to be puked up. In Timbo's case the stomach was damaged but you see blood from the mouth of other torso shot victims all the time (although I may be mixing movies/TV with the real crime scene photos/film I've seen). I can see blood in the lungs being coughed up, but that isn't "puking" per se.

Is there another physiological effect at work or is it always just there's a hole somewhere draining in?

[MCgunner]

Just what if-ing on a "suppose it IS true" idea.

Any chance that elephant's bloodstream took the .22 through them big arteries into the brain where it lodged and stroked him out?

Unlikely a hunter would be too familiar with the mechanism of stroke and so would figure whatever blood loss there was, was enough.



Medical types,

I've always wondered how the blood (in people) gets into the throat/stomach to be puked up. In Timbo's case the stomach was damaged but you see blood from the mouth of other torso shot victims all the time (although I may be mixing movies/TV with the real crime scene photos/film I've seen). I can see blood in the lungs being coughed up, but that isn't "puking" per se.

Is there another physiological effect at work or is it always just there's a hole somewhere draining in?

I'm no doctor, though I live down the street from a Holiday Inn. Actually, I studied wildlife and fisheries management, only a B.S. But, I've shot a lot of game and lung shots produce the bleeding out the mouth and nostrils. The lungs bleeding and the animal exhaling it, not hard to figure out.

[Kurush]

Just what if-ing on a "suppose it IS true" idea.

Any chance that elephant's bloodstream took the .22 through them big arteries into the brain where it lodged and stroked him out?

Unlikely a hunter would be too familiar with the mechanism of stroke and so would figure whatever blood loss there was, was enough.From my admittedly vague recollection of human anatomy, the arteries going to the brain (carotid) connect almost directly to the heart ventricle that comes from the lungs. So it would get stuck in the lungs first. Also it would probably get stuck in whatever the artery was heading towards, the foreleg presumably, before it could get to the lungs.

BTW, I still think the story is BS.

[carebear]

Yeah, weird things happen, but it's hard to believe something seemingly so unlikely was actually repeatable.

[RyanM]

Medical types,

I've always wondered how the blood (in people) gets into the throat/stomach to be puked up. In Timbo's case the stomach was damaged but you see blood from the mouth of other torso shot victims all the time (although I may be mixing movies/TV with the real crime scene photos/film I've seen). I can see blood in the lungs being coughed up, but that isn't "puking" per se.

Is there another physiological effect at work or is it always just there's a hole somewhere draining in?

Either a hole in the stomach, or blood being coughed up from the lungs. Pretty much the only thing I can think of that could possibly cause puking up blood (aside from certain types of poisoning), is getting punched in the nose. Blood from the nose runs down the throat, into the stomach, and gets puked back up. I guess it may be possible that someone could cough up blood from a lung wound, swallow it, and then vomit it back up, but that seems very unlikely to me.

From my admittedly vague recollection of human anatomy, the arteries going to the brain (carotid) connect almost directly to the heart ventricle that comes from the lungs. So it would get stuck in the lungs first. Also it would probably get stuck in whatever the artery was heading towards, the foreleg presumably, before it could get to the lungs.

Huh?

Blood flows from the vena cava into the left atria (top chamber), then is pumped through the tricuspid valve into the left ventricle (bottom chamber), and from there through a semilunar valve into the lungs. Blood then comes back from the lungs into the right atria (top), flows through the bicuspid valve into the right ventricle (bottom), and is finally pumped out another semilunar valve into the arch of the aorta. Since all 4 valves are only open when blood is rushing through them (at quite high pressure), it's pretty much impossible for an object in the aorta to go back through the heart far enough to get wedged in the lungs.

Precisely what branches off the aortic arch is dependent on species, but the arteries eventually seperate into left and right common carotids, left and right brachial arteries, and left and right vertebral arteries. The common carotids branch further into internal and external carotids (left and right, for a total of 4 carotid arteries). The vertebral and internal carotid arteries all lead to the brain. The brachial arteries go to the forelimbs, and the external carotids go to the scalp. So a bullet's chances of winding up in the brain aren't terrific. But it could happen, same way that strokes happen. I do doubt that a stroke is what actually happened, if these incidents happened at all.

[MCgunner]

Either a hole in the stomach, or blood being coughed up from the lungs. Pretty much the only thing I can think of that could possibly cause puking up blood (aside from certain types of poisoning), is getting punched in the nose. Blood from the nose runs down the throat, into the stomach, and gets puked back up. I guess it may be possible that someone could cough up blood from a lung wound, swallow it, and then vomit it back up, but that seems very unlikely to me.


Well, in the case of that elephant, he could have contracted an infection where he was pricked by the bullet. Then, it started hurting him so bad he developed a peptic ulcer from worrying about what it was, then started to puke blood. :D

IOW, I don't believe the story, either. :D

[Mr_Moore]

Don't know about humans, but I've seen enough pigs (during fall slaughter) shot between the eyes with a .22 short drop like they were hit with a sledgehammer that I wouldn't ever want to be on the receiving end.

An Amish farmer told me he kills his cows by mentally drawing an X between the ears and eyes and firing a .22 in the center of the X.

I was watching a rerun of cops where a guy took a .22 in the heart and was DOA.

.22 is not a joke/toy.

[p35]

I've mentioned before the case I had where a woman popped her BIL 4 times with a .22 Davis Derringer. He drove off from the scene but eventually stopped and let someone else take him the rest of the way to the hospital. Doctors gave him a 10% chance of living, but he pulled through after a week in the ICU and a month in a nursing home. He then got a one way ticket back south of the border for drug dealing:rolleyes: .

One of the first cases I worked on was a guy shot in the hip with a .22 Mag from a Ruger Single Six. Clipped both femoral arteries; ME said he lived about 3 minutes, and in that time he ran through a thick hedge and another hundred yards. Over $20 worth of pot IIRC.

TimboKhan: Would I be correct in assuming this was an accident rather than enemy action? Not trying to lessen the situation in any way, just wondering.

[sendtoscott]

.22 is not a joke/toy.

How many people who laugh at .22s would volunteer to be stabbed with an ice pick (similar sized hole from what I read)?

[unspellable]

When I was a kid, I was struck in the upper surface of the index finger with a ricochet from a BB gun. This opened the skin and bled a bit. Later, the wound festered and went progressed to blood poisoning, my whole arm swelled up. Had to soak it in Epsom salts solution and get penicillin in the butt twice a day for a while. I still have the scar on my finger. If this had happened in the days prior to antibiotics it would have meant the loss of my arm at the minimum, possibly death. Even given antibiotics, there was that risk, they are not 105% effective. Even what seems to be a very minor wound can be serious.

I also know of a case of a deer dying from being shot with a plastic bullet from one of those primer powered practice rounds. It was at close range and the wound festered.

[Checkman]

Well this thread certainly has legs. Well since I started this thread I guess I should do an update. The suspect in the shooting was arrested a few days later in Oregon. The bullet was recovered from the victim during the autopsy and was almost completely intact. It was just one heck of a lucky shot. I think it would be called a Golden BB. Personally I wouldn't go below the 38 special for self-defense, but the 25 worked. Here is another case we had earlier this year involving a heavier caliber. Also an eye opener.

Last January we had a guy get shot four times at point blank range with a 40 caliber S&W. The killer had loaded the weapon with 155 grain Federal Hydra-shocks and used a plastic bottle as an improvided suppressor. He walked up behind the victim as he was sitting at his computer and preceeded to put four rounds into the guy. He fled the scene immediately after shooting the victim. The victim disconnected from the internet, called 911, told the disptacher who shot him three times, told the patrol officers who responded and told the paramedics in the ambulance and the doctor in the ER. He died approximately two hours after he was shot four times. The autopsy showed that all four rounds expanded like they were designed to. The internal damage was massive. The victim lived for TWO HOURS. Needless to say if things had worked out a little differently he might have taken his killer with him. For thos you care the shooter plead guilty in exchange for 25 years.

[Old Fuff]

For those you care the shooter plead guilty in exchange for 25 years.

Which means he'll be out in seven... or less. :banghead:

The real point here is that those that think they can survive a shooting just because they use a particular caliber or bullet are dreaming. It may work that way, but there are enough exceptions - like the one above - that prove it's not a sure thing.

Along with the cartridge/caliber/bullet style is an equally important (and likely more so) consideration - bullet placement. It is exactly where it goes that counts. Center of mass, in and of itself, is a myth. :scrutiny:

[Checkman]

I'm always telling the new officers (and some of the old-timers) during firearms training that shot placement is everything. I usually misqoute Clint Smith as well. You know where he says that you can't miss fast enough or something like that and nobody with a half a brain would knowingly go into a gunfight with a handgun, but as cops the handgun is what we have with us all the time etc. etc. The couple of times that I thought something could happen I got my 870 out. Fortunately nothing happened.

[cz75bdneos22]

Don't know about humans, but I've seen enough pigs (during fall slaughter) shot between the eyes with a .22 short drop like they were hit with a sledgehammer that I wouldn't ever want to be on the receiving end.

same here at the ranch...:what:
also, look thru any of Mexican police blotters...deaths are dime a dozen using less than .38 special calibre...:eek:

[cz75bdneos22]

Quote:
"Just to add to the sense of this thread, there are also a few cases of death by BB and pellet guns."

I have often wondered of such a thing happenning, do you know of any cases?


yep...:evil:

[Old Fuff]

I have often wondered of such a thing happenning, do you know of any cases?


While it isn't common, there are a number of cases where a person was killed with a pellet rifle or B-B (very rare). Usually they involve a youngster shooting at another one and hitting them in the eye, although a shot to the chest and into the heart has also happened. About a year or so back, there was some talk about the government writing standards for air rifles vs. use by children.