un informed FFL holders make me crazy


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CDignition
August 19, 2005, 07:34 PM
man, I just bought a new handgun fom a dealer in Texas, and called around some local gun shops to have them fax their FFL to the folks I got the gun from...all of them said "you cant fax them, u have to come here and get it and mail it yourself" I know this is dead wrong, BATF has approved faxing FFL's for transfer..they were totally arguing with me, like I was a peon and didnt know anything,lol..dorks

My normal gun shop finally returned my call, and he is up to speed and got me taken care of..whew, thanks to them.. I wanted the gun tomorrow and wanted to have them ship it overnite....

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LiquidTension
August 19, 2005, 07:53 PM
All of the dealers I've used have required a signed in ink copy of an FFL before shipping to that business.

Correia
August 19, 2005, 07:54 PM
It is a brand new ruling. I just barely got the notification from the BATF this week, long after I read about it on THR. I would cut the FFLs some slack because many of them probably haven't even been notifed yet.

CDignition
August 19, 2005, 07:56 PM
I would, but they were so rude to me, and so sure I was wrong,lol..that irritates me the most...

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 07:58 PM
If they have not yet recieved the notification, it is completely understandable why they were sure you were wrong. That ruling changed years of requiring an inked copy to be sent.

tg_26101
August 19, 2005, 09:58 PM
Just possibly getting irritated and calling them dorks makes them a little less than cooperative? I've had my FFL for over 17 years, and didn't know anything about faxing an FFL until a week ago when I got my latest newsletter - for the past 17 years, that was a definate NO WAY. I'm still a little uneasy about it myself, and in addition, as I understand, it requires looking into the EZ Check to confirm. Maybe when it comes to doing a transfer for minimal gain, the dealers weren't too excited about taking the time. It also makes me just a LITTLE nervous when someone has to have a gun RIGHT NOW!!!

CDignition
August 19, 2005, 10:11 PM
I assume u never go to gun shows?> lol so if I called you today, you would be up to speed?? looks that way..I guess the hicks I called around here dont know how to read,lol

Tory
August 19, 2005, 10:16 PM
Personal attacks are not allowed on THR.

tg_26101
August 19, 2005, 10:21 PM
I haven't displayed at a gun show since about 2000. It just got to the point it wasn't any fun, and the aggravation exceeded the compensation.

I'm aware of the new ability to fax an FFL. I haven't done it, and if I did or didn't would probably depend on circumstances at the time. A one-time customer I hadn't seen before, wanting me to do a transfer because his regular guy wasn't available, pushing to have a gun the next day, wanting me to drop everything to accomodate him, probably not.

I'm a hick and proud of it, far from sophisticated, but it's MY FFL, and I can do with it as I please. If I'm ever in doubt, I'll err on the side of not taking chances on a possible illegality. Making $20 isn't worth the potential grief that can come with a mistake.

Just my opinion, don't care if you agree, don't care if you don't.

CDignition
August 19, 2005, 10:26 PM
uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force.. :neener:

just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. :rolleyes:

GigaBuist
August 19, 2005, 10:27 PM
That's news to me, and while I'm just a consumer I try and keep on top of things myself.

Seriously, cut them some slack. After years of being beat down told that they could not photocopy a license and mail it (IIRC) being told that they could FAX one would have probably been insane to them. It'll take a while for them to get the new info.

Be nice to your gun dealers... they're better armed than you. :)

BOTH sides of the issue live in fear of the BATFE, and they have a lot more at stake that you do. Twice I've had issues with my ID while buying. Once I had just moved, and was new to the game, and when I filled out the 4473 with my current address and it didn't match my address on the driver's license they halted the sale. I appologized, explained that I didn't even think about that, and asked them what I can do to make the sale happen that day. Turns out a sticker on the back from the DMV was good enough. Ran down to the DMV, got my sticker address change, and showed up to their surprise not long after.

Long lunch, but my manager was the one that told me I needed a 12 gauge shotgun. Not an issue. :)

More recently my DL expired and I was a bit irked that my new one now had my SSN attached to it in a database. I was doing a quasi-experiment to find out how long I could go without a "valid" ID even though the ID was clearly me, and had my current address. I let the envelope sit on my counter as long as I could -- and the jig was up when I tried to buy a gun. I had honestly forgotten that I was carrying old ID, as it works for everything else. While the clerk appologized for not being allowed to make the sale, I applogized for my mistake, and went home to dig up the new ID. I expressed that I understood their fear of the BATFE (and they cited a recent education session they had with an agent that explicitly mentioned expired ID) and came back pronto after I dug the new one out. That shop had -zero- reason to think I wasn't legit. I had purchased from them before, and they could have dug out my old 4473 that approved me for a handgun there, but I wasn't going to question them -- this is their livelyhoood!

Gun dealers live in FEAR of the hand of the ATF. I'm forgiving when they get a bit anal. I've had some dealers require that you use no abbreviations on the 4473! I think it's absurd, but somewhere they got this idea in their head that the BATFE will crack down on them if the form is incomplete. You may not appreviate "Drive" as "Dr." on the license. "Southeast" cannot be written "SE" and I cannot use "Grand Rapids, MI" as my birth place -- I have to write "Grand Rapids, Michigan."

They don't like it, and we don't like it, but they HAVE to be anal about the whole process. It comes with the territory.

TarpleyG
August 19, 2005, 10:40 PM
For those that didn't get the letter...

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/newsletter/0805fflnewsletter.pdf

CERTIFIED FAXED COPIES OF LICENSES

Section 27 CFR 478.94 requires the following for sales
or deliveries of firearms between licensees:
“A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed
dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and
a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of
curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the
identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to
making the transaction. Verification shall be established
by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified
copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means
as the transferor deems necessary:...”

This section of the regulations requires a licensee to
verify another licensee’s status prior to making sales or
deliveries to such licensee. Please be advised that ATF
will now recognize a faxed copy of a Federal firearms
license as an acceptable alternative form of verification.
ATF strongly suggests that FFLs utilize the FFLeZ
Check system and verify the authenticity of the
transferee’s license prior to shipping or disposing of a
firearm(s) to another licensee.

In addition, verification and certification of a license
is not considered valid unless a legible copy of
the transferee’s license clearly identifies the name,
address, license number and expiration date of the
license. Acceptance of blurred or illegible copies of a
transferee’s license may constitute noncompliance with
regulations.

Finally, since all fax machines and settings differ, FFLs
may need to fax with a fax resolution setting of fine,
super fine, or photo to ensure the fax copy of the
license is legible.

jefnvk
August 19, 2005, 10:55 PM
So, is scanning and emailing it acceptable?

CDignition
August 19, 2005, 11:00 PM
Good Posts..Thanks for the Info

Sam
August 19, 2005, 11:09 PM
Well Mr. CDIgnition,
I'll tell you that I go out of my way to take care of my customers, I would not tolerate being insulted by one. In one post you say it was a handgun and the next it was a $2K shotgun.

Personally I couldn't care less that you want your $2K shotgun right now.
I have a 9 year old customer that wants a 20ga single shot real bad, Get in line or go elsewhere, I'm going to take care of the gentleman first.

Fortunatly for me I looked at a copy of the latest BATFE proclamation while some of the other local FFL's were having our weekly price fixing breakfast last Tuesday. Didn't get my own personalized copy, for either of my licenses till yesterday afternoon.

Sam

LiquidTension
August 19, 2005, 11:18 PM
Interesting...guess I shoulda bought a gun this week, then I'd have known :scrutiny:

CDignition
August 19, 2005, 11:24 PM
Just to clear the sky, I wasnt mean or nasty, I just felt insulted at being talked down to....im not 10,lol.

The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic...

Tejas Gunwerks
August 19, 2005, 11:29 PM
Scanning and emailing a copy of an FFL is not acceptable. The newsletter makes no mention of scanning and emailing only Faxing.

Logan5
August 19, 2005, 11:30 PM
'Till it shows up in your mail or fax, addressed to you, which theoretically might not be much of a delay, I wouldn't expect any FFL to go out on a limb because they'd maybe *heard on the internet* that now it's ok. The law moves at something considerably less than lightning speed, and it's fairly rare to get sued for being slow and cautious, although of course that happens too, but much much less. Sometimes, all the "Information age, commerce at the speed of light" hooey breaks down, and it's not like we all didn't see that part coming 20 miles up the pike. People do the best they can; they're just trying to run a business according to some really wierd rules. It's not like they have live news feeds of ATFE rule changes either; If they were paying me I would have told them to stall for an hour 'till I checked it out. Possibly ore. Remember this BS next time you're voting, but don't blame the victim here.

Sam
August 19, 2005, 11:46 PM
What else got changed to "keep it slightly on topic"?
What was it they call intentionally untrue statements?

Sam

Hawkmoon
August 20, 2005, 12:04 AM
CDignition, this is, as has been noted, a brand new situation. I concur that it is unreasonable to expect that all FFLs will know about it. Until this, they were not allowed to accept even a photocopy of the receiving FFL's signed license. They had to get a copy with an ORIGINAL signature. So if they haven't seen the new ruling, I can certainly understand why they would be skeptical.

And the way the ruling is worded, don't be surprised if some won't accept a faxed copy anyway, because if puts more responsibility on them. Not ehe parts I highlighted:
Section 27 CFR 478.94 requires the following for sales
or deliveries of firearms between licensees:
“A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed
dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and
a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of
curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the
identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to
making the transaction. Verification shall be established
by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified
copy of the transferee’s license and by such other means
as the transferor deems necessary:...”

This section of the regulations requires a licensee to
verify another licensee’s status prior to making sales or
deliveries to such licensee. Please be advised that ATF
will now recognize a faxed copy of a Federal firearms
license as an acceptable alternative form of verification.
ATF strongly suggests that FFLs utilize the FFLeZ
Check system and verify the authenticity of the
transferee’s license prior to shipping or disposing of a
firearm(s) to another licensee.
The way I read it, the sending FFL can accept a faxed license from the other end, but he still has a responsibility under the regs to VERIFY the validity of the license, so if it isn't signed in ink he then has to resort to other (unspecified) measures to ensure that he has done enough to comply with the regulation.

I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Zach S
August 20, 2005, 10:15 AM
Try to look at it from the dealers' point of veiw. They get calls all the time from folks wanting to buy a machinegun because the ban sunsetted, or a glock since they can go through a metal detector, or some other stupid something that the person on the other end of the line read on the internet or heard from someone, an they know its true.

Now, lets assume you havent been notifed by the BATFE that faxing FFLs is now acceptable, and someone called you saying otherwise. How would you feel?

It is a brand new ruling. I just barely got the notification from the BATF this week, long after I read about it on THR. I would cut the FFLs some slack because many of them probably haven't even been notifed yet.
I dont think the dealer I use has been notified yet.

Byron Quick
August 20, 2005, 10:52 AM
It also makes me just a LITTLE nervous when someone has to have a gun RIGHT NOW!!!

I want my toy now. Not hard to understand. If I need to have a gun right now...I've got that covered.

I would give the FFL's a little time to get used to this. It's a 180 degree change from decades of regulation.

I get more upset when dealing with a FFL who is ignorant of ATF regulations that have been in effect since GCA 1968. I've had some tell me that I was wrong after showing them the regulations in ATF publications. I've often wondered if they thought that maybe I had a set of counterfeit regs printed up just to snooker them.

FPrice
August 20, 2005, 11:20 AM
Demanding, come across as a know-it-all, impatient (want your gun NOW), insulting ("dorks", "the Harvard types", "I guess the hicks I called around here dont know how to read,lol"), inaccurate ("I just bought a new handgun fom a dealer in Texas...", "just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun").

Yeah, I guess I can understand why someone would be hesitant to jump at your demands.

SHOOT1SAM
August 20, 2005, 11:27 AM
I once had an FFL refuse a signed copy of another's FFL because it was signed in black ink & therefore could too easily have been a photocopy. Went back & got one signed with blue ink (& the one FFL kinda sheepishly said they knew better & didn't know what they were thinking at the time).

I also bought a gun once from Wal-Mart (hey, it was a Wal-Mart only, special edition, pink Cricket .22) and this particular Wal-Mart would not allow ANY abbreviations, even to the point of having to spell out United States of America!! Called an old buddy who's a Wal-Mart manager & he said this is not company policy, but carrying the firearm out the front door before handing it to the purchaser, is.

Sam

jefnvk
August 20, 2005, 02:21 PM
this particular Wal-Mart would not allow ANY abbreviations, even to the point of having to spell out United States of America!

I do believe it says that right on the yellow form. Certainly everywhere I have bought a gun, this is the case.

Blue Line
August 20, 2005, 02:35 PM
I just want to throw this one out to you all. I was going to buy a gun from a poster here and went to a couple of shops locally and the price they want to facilitate the transaction was so high. One wanted $100 bucks for 230 dollar gun! The most unusual was the guy who was going to charge me for the transaction and SALES TAX on the price of the gun!?
I gave up after that one. :banghead:

Husker1911
August 21, 2005, 02:35 PM
CDnigtion: "uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force..

just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. "


"The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself?

larry starling
August 21, 2005, 02:46 PM
So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself? Hum....Maybe? :eek:

boofus
August 21, 2005, 02:48 PM
Well at the gunshow yesterday there was an AR dealer. I asked to see a Bushmaster lower receiver to see if a Registered Lightning Link would fit. He asked me what that was and I said it was like an auto-sear. Then he says he won't sell me a receiver. I said the piece would be registered, but he basically says get lost.

Nice way to treat a potential customer with a $9,000 machinegun and $700 handgun in his bag. I'm amazed some of those jokers can stay in business.

tg_26101
August 21, 2005, 04:14 PM
boofus says "I'm amazed some of those jokers can stay in business"

Maybe the jokers stay in business (and out of prison) by not taking unnecessary chances with sales to people they aren't familiar with, who have told them outright they are planning to do something the FFL thinks may be illegal. In the dealer's defense, if he didn't know you, how did he know if a machinegun in your bag was legal or not?

I said above I quit doing gun shows over 5 years ago, and one of the reasons was folks asking things like "what would it take to make this AR fully automatic?" (I don't know and don't want to know), or "I'd buy this shotgun if you would cut the barrel off shorter" (yeah, right), or "I want to buy AK's in large quantity, what can you do if I buy 200?" (I can ask you to move along). These aren't made up questions; I had all of them asked of me at gun shows, and many other things similar.

Many folks don't understand just how scary it can be for FFL holders when customers start to ask (or worse, demand) that the dealer do something that may not be legal. At a gun show, you never know who's across the table. It could be a gun enthusiast, it could be a nut, or it could be a BATFE agent just waiting for the wrong answer to make your life miserable.

Most dealers don't get rich at this, and when it comes down to a questionable sale with a $25 profit, or waiting for someone not so scary, the sale can wait for another day.

kbr80
August 21, 2005, 04:26 PM
"I'm amazed some of those jokers can stay in business"


I am amazed as well. The main reason I quit going to gunshows is the very, very high prices on firearms. Yea, you can find a deal every so often, but most often its dealers that look to screw the uninformed gun buyer. Example: The last gun show I attended, at a dealers table sat a Springfield Armory WW2 govt model, price $625, next to it sat an Auto-Ordnance/Kahr 1911, price $675. Both new in box. I asked the dealer if he would take $475 for the springer, he replied that "this gun is a collectible reproduction of the 1911 WW2 model, and that at the price he had it listed he was taking a loss." Well, I did not want to get into a pissing match with him over it, so I walked on. The very next monday, went online to GA, bought the exact same gun, springer WW2 govt model, for $389, NIB. Shipping and transfer fee brought me to $425.

YOU cant tell me that some of these gunshow dealers have never heard of the internet, I can understand wanting to make money to cover your expenses at the show and getting to the show, but to screw people is not right. Who knows, maybe I person wanting to get into shooting, purchased that gun, found out he got screwed and now does not what to have anything to do with shooting. :cuss:

boofus
August 21, 2005, 05:46 PM
Maybe the jokers stay in business (and out of prison) by not taking unnecessary chances with sales to people they aren't familiar with, who have told them outright they are planning to do something the FFL thinks may be illegal.

Since the FFL is the one making a living at selling guns they should know the damn laws. When the customer is more informed about what is legal and not I don't think that dealer should be in the business. It's a good idea in any business to be familiar with your product.

I'd wager good money that the vendor I mentioned before would balk at my looking for a host for a registered sear (perfectly legal). But would then tell some hapless sucker it's ok to have an AR pistol with 2 pistol grips or one that can be fired from inside a suitcase (unregistered Any-Other-Weapon).

Husker1911
August 21, 2005, 05:55 PM
Boo, why would or should a Class 1 dealer keep track of the myriad laws regarding your Class III weapons? It seems he was protecting his license and livlihood by distancing himself from you. And you take offense at this?

tg_26101
August 21, 2005, 05:56 PM
An 01 FFL has no reason to know what is involved in an "auto sear". I know I don't. However, and I'm sure you'll be able to quote verse and ordnance number, I thought it was illegal to install any select fire parts in an unregistered lower receiver. I know I wouldn't sell a new receiver to you with the thought you were going to install select fire parts. To the best of my knowledge (very limited on select fire stuff), you may have a registered part for a select fire firearm, but can not install them in any receiver you please.

I think all the folks that know all the laws and regulations inside and out by heart, and know what price will allow a profit margin, should do the gun world a favor by applying for their own FFL's. It's a different world when the shoe's on the other foot.

boofus
August 21, 2005, 05:56 PM
If he doesn't want to learn the laws concerning the product he is selling he should not carry the product.

Husker1911
August 21, 2005, 05:58 PM
Perhaps you shouldn't tell another man how to do his business?

boofus
August 21, 2005, 06:02 PM
If their business practices are lousy they should know about it. Last I checked we still had a 1st Amendment right to publicly criticize just about everything under the sun.

silverlance
August 21, 2005, 06:05 PM
here in Los Angeles, if you use U.S.A. instead of united states of america the dealer shreds the document in front of you and gives you a new one. they EXPLICITLY warn you not to fill out the form without someone watching.

I have never hated these procedures

a. because they themselves were embarassed by them and wish they didn't have to do all this

b. its hard enough to sell guns in RPK as it is... they are doing me a service, and I will do all i can to help mak eit easier (they really do audit and swat team dealers down ehre... sigh*)

that said some people live in less commie states, and to them i can but sympathize at the dififculty

Husker1911
August 21, 2005, 06:05 PM
"If he doesn't want to learn the laws concerning the product he is selling he should not carry the product."

He's not selling class III products. In his opinion, you're endangering his business and even his freedom by displaying class III items in conjunction with his class I firearms. Can't you understand this?

boofus
August 21, 2005, 06:11 PM
There is not a line in the sand between regular firearms and 'class 3' as you put it.

Usually the only things separating a NFA and non-NFA firearm of a given model is the absence of 1.5" of barrel or an extra grip or 1 extra part or the ATF suddenly deciding a perfectly legal shotgun should be a Destructive Device.

I'm not suggesting every dealer go out and learn how to take apart a MG42 or Revelli Model 1914, but they should know the basic laws for the products they decide to carry.

Husker1911
August 21, 2005, 06:14 PM
Hmm, M16 parts can and do get perfectly otherwise law abiding citizens and gun dealers into trouble.

In my part of the world, there's a gun dealer facing 8 indictments for selling to prohibited persons and straw purchases. That shop's big selling tool was offering 10% over cost purchases. Now he's facing five years in federal prison. For what? For the huge profits he made at 10% over? Do you have more words of wisdom for this poor slob?

boofus
August 21, 2005, 06:16 PM
Exactly my point... do you know WHY those m16 parts got that dealer in trouble? Because he was ignorant of the laws! It works both ways. If you don't know what is legal then you certainly don't know what is illegal. And you piss off law-abiding potential customers in the meantime.

If a dealer doesn't know then the reason should be "I'm not sure if that is legal or not" rather than-> "I'm not going to help you break the law" when in fact no laws are being broken.

tg_26101
August 21, 2005, 06:29 PM
This is all a bunch of BS. A bunch of arm chair commando's whining because legitimate business people won't take a chance on doing something stupid just because the commando wants it.

If prices at gun shows are too high, DON"T BUY THERE.
If a dealer doesn't want to do your transfer, TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE.
If you know so much about laws, pricing, and marketing, GET YOUR OWN FFL.
Just QUIT WHINING ABOUT IT!!

boofus
August 21, 2005, 06:31 PM
Just wait until the shoe is on the other foot and some 'customer' preferably a Brady/VPC soccermom decides those scary looking AR-15s on your rack or your consignment guns are illegal and calls in ATF to make life difficult for you.

Bet you snooty dealer types won't feel so great about being wrongly accused of something by a total ignoramus then.

I get along great with the dealers that don't wrongly accuse me of being a criminal right off the bat. :rolleyes:

Sam
August 21, 2005, 10:56 PM
Well Boofus I reccomend that you don't do business with that dealer.
Deal with whoever gives you the best service and price.

As for the VPC/Brady Bunch and the rest of the pack, they make those calls all the time and it doesn't matter a whit whether I know the laws or not, their complaint is the law.

Sam

CDignition
August 21, 2005, 11:02 PM
wow, you guys really ******d up this thread... Whats faxing an FFL (a legal practice BTW) got to do with anything class 3??

the High Road...thats not what some of the attacks in this thread look like to me..dissapointing..

Husker1911
August 22, 2005, 12:23 AM
Gee, CDnition, this might bear repeating.
----------------------------------------------------

CDnigtion: "uh oh..the Harvard types are out in full force..

just FYI, the gun I bought is a $2K Sporting clays shotgun, and I wanted it sooner than later.. "


"The reason the first post sez handgun is I posted this in a Handgun forum elsewhere, and wanted to keep it slightly on topic..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So not only is CD rude to dealers he basically demands perform an immediate transfer with week-old technology changes, but he's dishonest in his posts here. Is somebody a little full of themself?

BlownToThe Bone
August 23, 2005, 07:26 PM
BOTH sides of the issue live in fear of the BATFE, and they have a lot more at stake that you do. Twice I've had issues with my ID while buying. Once I had just moved, and was new to the game, and when I filled out the 4473 with my current address and it didn't match my address on the driver's license they halted the sale. I appologized, explained that I didn't even think about that, and asked them what I can do to make the sale happen that day. Turns out a sticker on the back from the DMV was good enough. Ran down to the DMV, got my sticker address change, and showed up to their surprise not long after.

MudPuppy
August 23, 2005, 09:33 PM
I'm going to yank the wheel real hard to the left and try and get us back on the pavement...hang on...

I'm glad the ATF is crawling out of the caveman days and into 1970, but why is a copy even required. They have that online database thinger--Use it!

c_yeager
August 24, 2005, 03:24 AM
There are some personality types that just dont get any favors regardless of legality.

In the same vein, a lot of FFLs wont send out a copy of their license untill they have seen you in person just to check you out. The idea is that they dont want to get stuck with the gun if it turns out that you cant pass a background check or arent 18 (or if your just someone they dont want to sell a gun to).

Janitor
August 24, 2005, 08:08 AM
Was it illegal to fax a copy of an FFL, or was it illegal to accept it?

If you fax a copy of your license, have you broken the law? Wasn't it up to the license holder sending the gun to make sure all paperwork is in order before they ship? Or does BATF hold both license holders responsible in a situation like this (not something that would surprise me)?

How about if the sending license holder won't ship the gun based on receiving a faxed copy of the license rather than a signed hard copy? In that case, have any laws been broken at all?

-------

I have no doubt in my mind most FFL holders follow the law as best as they know how, to avoid losing that license (and possibly their living). It makes no sense at all for a single sale. Especially a single sale that's only going to net $20-$25. I can also see how they would be jaded by both dumb questions, and claims from people who saw on the internet that the law had changed. If I had an FFL, I'd only want to believe "official" publications sent by BATF.

Now ... with all that said - If it were still illegal to fax their license, were the FFL holders that CD contacted really at a risk if they allowed his request and just faxed the license? Wouldn't the worst to them have been a refusal of shipment from the other end?

tg_26101
August 24, 2005, 08:44 AM
I think in the past one of the issues has been duplication and alteration of license copies. That was behind the requirement of having a signed in ink, in a color other than black, original copy of a license mailed to the other FFL holder before shipping. With modern copiers and photoshop programs, even with changes to the appearance of the license about six-eight years ago, it has been too easy to alter a license and receive shipments to a non-licensee.

The change recently has been the availability of the EZ-Check system where information on a license can be verified from the ATF website. Since this has been available, I have even checked the original copies to make sure they are correct. With this ability to double check, accepting a faxed copy is less of a risk.

One consideration is that, given just a fax number by a customer, how do I know where the fax is going? If I mail to another FFL holder, I know it's going to a legitimate address. I don't know who or where that fax number might be. I could do some checking, but if I have to take a half hour to go around the horn to make sure everything is on the up and up, then I probably can't do $20 transfers, there is just too much of a time investment. For a regular customer, there may be a return on the investment down the road and everyone will win. In a situation as first stated, where the regular dealer isn't available and someone is insistent that the process be worked through for a one time transfer, it's not worth the time investment.

Call me paranoid, but I'm always hesitant when someone insists I do something outside the normal routine, and wants it done immediately.

ctdonath
August 24, 2005, 09:29 AM
Both the "faxing an FFL license" and the "buying receiver to put full-auto parts in" issue have exactly the same problem (hence the relevance, CD - slow down and observe before jumping on people who have been here a lot longer than you). The laws regarding firearms sales, and the laws regarding automatic firearms, are very complicated. Worse, the BATFE is the interpreter of those laws, and is authorized (at least tacitly and practically) to basically create new laws as it sees fit. Both the laws and the bureaucrats have "prohibition" as their basic principle, so if anything is in question the answer is presumably "no". Even worse, the penalties for violating laws or bureaucrats, in regards to firearms, is huge and ranges from pulling licenses to decades in prison - all for administrative mistakes.

As such, I have to sympathize with the uncooperative FFLs (as far as this thread topic goes). I just got my FFL newsletter yesterday, and even then I'm skittish about what it says because I don't have the actual text of the law and official ruling handy. We know that faxes and emailed scans are the same thing - but one agent who thinks otherwise could toss someone in jail for 5 years for using the "wrong" one, or even for finding something objectionable about using a fax. Likewise, the gov't is EXTREMELY skittish about machineguns, the laws and bureaucracy are hideously complicated and obfuscated, and unless you're working directly with an explicitly licensed FFL dealer, I don't blame any non-C3 dealer for terminating a potential sale the moment any customer says anything about "converting it to full auto". Remember Ruby Ridge and Waco? those were purely about Class-III administrative violations; Randy Weaver didn't do the paperwork for his short-barreled-shotgun, and Koresh might not have paid a similar $200 fee.

Firearms rules & regs are really messed up. Don't be surprised when an FFL errs on the side of caution, or hasn't gotten the latest update. Don't criticize them until YOU have tried reading those screwed-up documents that will kick your :cuss: if you so much as abbreviate "yes" to "Y".

hotpig
August 24, 2005, 09:18 PM
I just ticked a guy off last week. He had a faxed FFL to me but I will not accept it because I can not read the numbers or experation date. He sent me a nasty gram and told me were to stick my Sig.

I have zero obligation to accept ANY faxed FFL. My cheapie fax is not going to print a legible FFL out and I do not see a need to buy a more expensive one. Well maybe if I do get a lot of requests. ;)

waterhouse
August 24, 2005, 11:19 PM
The idea is that they dont want to get stuck with the gun if it turns out that you cant pass a background check or arent 18

:D It is my dream that someday a gun will arrive at my door that I didn't pay for and that no one else is legally allowed to leave with.

I found out about the fax thing a couple months ago at an ATF seminar, and I still didn't really want to act on it until I got the newsletter that put it in writing. I have no plans of ending up in federal prison by acting on something an ATF agent said or something I read on the internet or something that a customer insists is true.

Having said that, I've also written to the ATF to try to convince them that turning a piece of paper into digital data and sending it over a phone line and then turning it back into a piece of paper at the other end is pretty much the same as scanning, emailing, and printing. I have not yet received a respose.

c_yeager
August 25, 2005, 04:07 AM
Having said that, I've also written to the ATF to try to convince them that turning a piece of paper into digital data and sending it over a phone line and then turning it back into a piece of paper at the other end is pretty much the same as scanning, emailing, and printing. I have not yet received a respose.

Especuially when you consider that you can fax scanned images anyways.

Tharg
August 25, 2005, 06:00 AM
I don't know JACK about faxing junk...

but i think its SAD when you can go to the website... that is meant to be the official website... of the BATF... that has all the rules as current as they can be... that SAYS that a PRIVATE individual can mail via Fedex or UPS (butnot the USPS) a handgun to a FFL in a different state for x-fer to a person in said state... and 9 of 10 FFL's don't know it and won't do it...

meanwhile - the 1 of 10 FFL's are calling the rest of them stupid, siting they do it all the time, as its ok under the rules.

IF... and i state IF... FFL is your JOB... as part of your BUSINESS, you would think you would know it up and down, left and right... up to the minute... etc etc... you'd read about it more often than any THR post... you'd keep abreast of the ins and outs....

i shouldn't have to go searching for a FFL that knows the rules and will complete a transaction that is lawfull. The FFL should know what is lawfull and be able to PROVE ME WRONG IN AN INSTANT because he should be so much more up on things than *I* am that its not funny... instead of just being wrong.

seriously... its come to the point that i won't bother w/ a state to state x-fer just cause i dont' want to have to track down a FFL the few times i do it that knows the rules...(ok - unless i see something i really want...roflrofl)

bleh

J/Tharg!

Commissar Gribb
August 25, 2005, 06:07 AM
but carrying the firearm out the front door before handing it to the purchaser, is.

because outside the store is where the customer has the ammo so he can load up- go back in and shoot up the place.

I love the idiotic non-logic that stores like walmart use to develop policies.


It is my dream that someday a gun will arrive at my door that I didn't pay for and that no one else is legally allowed to leave with.

isnt that everyone's dream? :D

chopinbloc
August 25, 2005, 06:54 AM
well, i dunno about the rest, but i do know that pawnshops often hire employees who love to spout fictitious laws. years ago 'fore i turned 21 one told me i couldn't handle the mini-14 i was interested in because it had a folding stock and the pistol grip made it a pistol. i turned around, walked out the door and bought an ak elsewhere. sometimes a dealer that knows diddly gets me a good deal on a gun, though.

middy
August 25, 2005, 04:10 PM
Tharg, I've had the same problem. I went to 3 FFL holders before I got The Bullet Trap in Plano to take a transfer from a guy out of state (great guys, they didn't know if it was legal so they, you know, ASKED someone else and READ the rules on the ATF website instead of just spouting a bunch of know-it-all BS like the other gunstore owners).

Sorry FFL guys, but sometimes it seems like many of you don't really want to make money and keep customers.

I don't have a problem with high prices, the free market sorts itself out. It's just all the misinformation, ignorance, and general crabbiness that get to me sometimes.

Some of y'all are great though, and you're the ones I go back to and give my business to.

hotpig
August 25, 2005, 08:49 PM
Some Dealers will not accept a out of state weapon from a individual. That is up to the Dealer.

I will but it must have a copy of the persons DL. I make it clear to both parties that if a gun comes to me from a individual without a DL or FFL I will not transfer it. I will not send it back to the individual either. The gun will be turned over to ATF for disposal if they do not send the required paperwork.

So far this has worked for me. I get a copy of the DL for my file and a current address of the seller in my log book.

MountainPeak
August 25, 2005, 08:53 PM
We all should celebrate this UPGRADE. Speeds things up a bit.

CRAYZ CANES LLC
August 26, 2005, 12:44 AM
Anybody call thier local ATF branch and ask them about the change, for faxing an FFL?
I would like to know what everyone else has been told.
Here in Florida, my local ATF inspector told me that I needed to get a copy of the Drivers License, of the person that signed the FFL. To verify the signature.

Anybody else get this answer? If not what were you told?

Thanks

hotpig
August 26, 2005, 01:29 PM
ATF newsletter does not mention it. I fail to see the point in it since I never received a DL with a hard copy of a FFL to compare before the change.

I think right now I will keep doing things the old fashoned way. Inked copy for a inked copy or no transaction. 10.00 is not worth the hassel.

atblis
August 26, 2005, 03:50 PM
3 local gun stores for me. I call them Grumpy oldman 1, Grumpy old man 2, and Senile old man.

Grumpy old man 1
Prices are sky high and he gets extremely defensive if you question this. Pulls gun laws out of his ass. He finally went out of business because nobody would buy his overpriced crap and or put up with the attitude. I think he's probably convinced Walmart put him out of business. $3.60 for a sleeve of small pistol primers. Come on!!!

Grumpy old man 2
Prices are high but better than 1. Also pulls gun laws out of his ass. How he gets those around the Ithaca Mag10 that's crammed up there I don't know. He's on chemo so I guess he has an excuse.

Senile Old Man
Admits he doesn't know laws instead of pulling them out of his ass (the fact that he should know is another thing...). Prices are reasonable except that nothing has a price marked on it, he has to look every price up. If you wait 10 minutes and ask again, the price may have gone up or down 50 bucks or so.

I think the biggest problem with Gun stores is that there isn't enough new blood coming into the business. Grumpy old men are... grumpy old men. Think about talking to your Grandfather about things. "New cars are crap" "The internet is ruining this country" blah. blah. blah.

ctdonath
August 26, 2005, 03:53 PM
Hotpig,
The latest ATF newsletter DID mention it - front page.

hotpig
August 27, 2005, 12:59 AM
I just read it again. I still do not see anything about getting a copy of the DL to verify the signature. :confused:

newfalguy101
August 27, 2005, 01:23 AM
As a FFL holder and also poor, I dont own a fax machine so I will not accept them either.

Its still less expensive for me to get a copy of my FFL and a stamp than to pay for a fax.

CDignition
August 28, 2005, 06:21 PM
Well, it looks like I am not alone in my feeling here, regardless of weather I doctored the post to fit the posting criteria,

In my opinion, the FFL's that re not "Up to Speed" will just stay small buisness that dont grow, and they probably blame Wal Mart, instead of their own ignorance/attitude.


On the other hand, I do understand the reluctance to try something really new, and Jeopardize your livleyhood for 50 bux...but that is the buisness you chose, otherwise just go sell swingsets and be safe,lol


alot of the posts above me mirror things I have seen(grumpy old bastards that think they know it all,lol) thanks for the support guys..:)


In regards to the guys that "dont want to spend the $$$ on a good fax machine", they are cheaper than the PC you are using now for fun, so upgrade your buisness just a teeny bit and join the 20'th century (we can wait on the 21's century for a bit,lol)

Beren
August 28, 2005, 08:21 PM
I'm still waiting for the ATF to issue a "clarification" regarding the "you may now accept fax copies of FFLs" ruling.

The clarification: "Yes, you may accept the fax copy, but only if the original holder signs it in ink after your fax machine has printed it out." :evil:

Tory
August 28, 2005, 09:32 PM
"Well, it looks like I am not alone in my feeling here, regardless of weather [sic] I doctored the post to fit the posting criteria, "

Meaning you lied. How else does a handgun become a shotgun? :scrutiny:

In my opinion, the FFL's that [a]re not "Up to Speed" will just stay small buisness [sic] that don[']t grow, and they probably blame Wal Mart, instead of their own ignorance/attitude."

Perhaps the attitude you still complain of is the direct consequence of dealing with arrogant, disingenous, self-styled "experts." :uhoh:

"On the other hand, I do understand the reluctance to try something really new, and Jeopardize your livleyhood [sic] for 50 bux [sic]...but that is the buisness [sic] you chose, otherwise ju"st [sic] go sell swingsets and be safe,lol"

And you are equally free to take your "buisness" elsewhere. Bon chance.....

tg_26101
August 28, 2005, 11:24 PM
(deleted) - unnecessary and inflamatory, sorry, lost my head

Tory
August 28, 2005, 11:49 PM
"Tory - sorry, you forgot the (lol) after each statement."

There was only ONE "lol" after any of the statements I quoted and I included it. So much for your transparent rationalization.

Tell us again about your handgun-cum-shotgun or whatever your story is now.... :scrutiny:

newfalguy101
August 29, 2005, 12:09 AM
In regards to the guys that "dont want to spend the $$$ on a good fax machine", they are cheaper than the PC you are using now for fun, so upgrade your buisness just a teeny bit and join the 20'th century (we can wait on the 21's century for a bit,lol)

Assuming this is aimed at least in general in my direction:
my puter is 5 years old,
I deal guns on the side in addition to my "real" job,
I dont have a landline,
and I have NO intention of paying for one any time in the near future.

AND its STILL cheaper to get a copy ($0.10) and stamp ($0.37) than to spend a buck or more to receive a FAX.

I ONLY accept USPS Money orders anyway, so its NOT like I am going to hold up a transfer because of this.

so........................... :neener:

hotpig
August 29, 2005, 01:35 PM
How in the world can a FFL make 50.00 on a transfer? I charge 10.00 just to be competive. If I tried to soak a 10% surcharge the customer would tell me real quick were to go.

BTW I am mailing out two FFL's today on transfers. This fax thing does not appear to be catching on yet.

waterhouse
August 29, 2005, 02:09 PM
Hotpig, I think it depends on where you are. I charge $5 just because the main reason I got my FFL is that all the stores around here charged $25-35 and I thought that was silly.

I have shipped guns to Cali, and customers from there have told me that they pay $50 at every store for 50+ miles. It almost sounds like all of the stores got together and decided on the same price.

I ordered a gun from a place in Washington a couple weeks ago, and attached to my invoice were the store policies, which are:

1. $35 for paper work for each gun received. Multiple guns in the same shipment will be charged for each gun.
2. They only accept incoming guns from other FFLs
3. If you order a new gun and have it sent to their shop, there is a punishment fee for finding a better deal, which is 10% of the value of the gun or $35, whichever is greater.
4. "Please check with us for our availability and pricing, we can usually save you money!"

Well, after you add in the punishment charge and your $35 fee for incoming guns I'm sure you can! I do understand though. There is no way a gun store paying for real estate in Cali. can compete with my prices, selling out of my house in Texas. They have to make up the difference somehow, plus from what I understand they have a lot more paperwork to do there.

CDignition
August 29, 2005, 06:32 PM
whew,lol,lol....you lol guys,lol are tough,lol...

wow, I lied on the internet..whoo, that never happens, eh??.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

as for taking m buisness elsewhere, thats exactly what I did...I got my Pistol/shotgun that saturday, and went Trap/Pistol shooting,lol,lol,lol

Lobotomy Boy
September 4, 2005, 01:42 AM
Tory wrote:
Personal attacks are not allowed on THR.

Later he replied to another thread:
The aptly eponymous Lobotomy Boy declares thusly...

So which is it, Tory? Are personal attacks not allowed, or are they only allowed when you are the attacker?

gunsmith
September 4, 2005, 02:17 AM
i am from nyc and currently living in Reno, lot's of "rednecks"
& "hicks" here...GOD bless them, I am sure learning alot from them.

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