Who else.........


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MachIVshooter
August 20, 2005, 01:31 AM
......Keeps a rifle close at hand for home protection? Obviously, pretty much every member on this board keeps a hungun or shotgun (or both) for home defense, as do I. But it seems that more and more often, the bad guys are wearing body armor. Not all of them, but the ones who truly intend to do damage. I trust that my 10mm's with my loads would dispatch even the largest intruder with ease, but someone wearing kevlar could survive the barrage my wife and I will let loose. I teach and practice center mass shooting, because the head is a small targedt that moves a great deal and head shots often are not lethal. So my question is this, who else keeps something capable of dispatching a heavily armored thug who invades their home? I am not going to give up too many details of my home security on a public forum, but suffice it to say that even NIJ level IV w/ trauma plates is compromised after one round.

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Stevie-Ray
August 20, 2005, 01:33 AM
every member on this board keeps a hungun or shotgun Hungun? Is that a Luger or perhaps a P-38? :D

Kamicosmos
August 20, 2005, 01:35 AM
My AK is technically ready to go with a few loaded mags next to it in the safe. Granted, if I have to fight my way down to the basement, and the threat is not handled by 8 rounds of 12 gauge 00 and 21 rounds of .45 ACP...well. I guess I'll need the AK and whatever else is ready to go when I get there!! :what:

slopemeno
August 20, 2005, 01:35 AM
Where have you seen body armor used by BG's? And by the way, the 'failure drill' is still a good idea regardless of what you use.
Have you seen wound pictures of what a 12 GA does to someone wearing body armor? Unless they have a very high threat level the average 12 GA is very effective. I had a chance to read a short paragraph about a shooting involving a 12 GA slug-vs-body armor that would have had the same result either way, you know? That being said, the 5.56 carbine is probably the hot setup for quick, multiple shots, and I wouldnt hesitiate to use a lever action in various calibers defensively in a rural setting.

chris in va
August 20, 2005, 01:45 AM
Elbert County is a lovely, sparsely populated area located in central Colorado, just south east of Denver. Many of Elbert County's residents work in Denver or the suburbs and make a short commute. The area is made up primarily of ranch land and farms, with gently rolling grasslands and plenty of wild life.

Are things really that bad out there? :eek:

Shaun
August 20, 2005, 02:10 AM
I practice isreali failure drills so that I don't need a rifle two to the chest and one to the head. 12ga also has a slug rotation and at close range a 12ga slug will penetrate a Class IIIA

GRB
August 20, 2005, 02:23 AM
Where have you seen body armor used by BG's? I have arrested a few wearing it or having it handy in car or home already. Not many but a few in about 26 years. Certain groups are known to have body armor readily available at all times like bad cops, certain motorcycle gangs, drug gangs (highly professional ones anyhow), whackos, terrorists and so forth. Even low life burglars sometimes wear body armor if they have stolen it somewhere.

MachIVshooter
August 20, 2005, 02:58 AM
Are things really that bad out there?

My father and stepmother were murdered by a strung-out punk in their home in Bigfork, Montana. At the time, the population was in the low 4-digits. It can happen anywhere.

M2 Carbine
August 20, 2005, 03:04 AM
I have a couple shotguns and pistols around the house but I also have a couple rifles handy.

My house protection extends a couple hundred feet around the house including some out buildings so I could possible need a rifle more than a pistol or shotgun.

Shaun
August 20, 2005, 09:58 AM
Glenn Bartley
have arrested a few wearing it or having it handy in car or home already. Not many but a few in about 26 years. Certain groups are known to have body armor readily available at all times like bad cops, certain motorcycle gangs, drug gangs (highly professional ones anyhow), whackos, terrorists and so forth. Even low life burglars sometimes wear body armor if they have stolen it somewhere.


So Glenn only criminals or wackos have body armor -- I am a retired cop and when I left the agency I took the body armor I bought with me as it was mine. I am assuming that the Peoples Republik of NY makes it a crime to own body armor.

bogie
August 20, 2005, 11:03 AM
I don't think that's what he said.

Those were people he arrested. They were _already_ criminals, who happened to be in possession of body armor.

Apologize, shake hands, and load another magazine.

GRB
August 20, 2005, 11:04 AM
Shaun,

Why not read the essence of what made me reply as I did, before giving some sort of off the wall reply.

Original poster: But it seems that more and more often, the bad guys are wearing body armor. Not all of them, but the ones who truly intend to do damage. I trust that my 10mm's with my loads would dispatch even the largest intruder with ease, but someone wearing kevlar could survive the barrage my wife and I will let loose. AND So my question is this, who else keeps something capable of dispatching a heavily armored thug who invades their home? The thread starter was in fact talking about home defense, the possibility of CRIMINALS wearing body armor while doing a home invasion or burglary, and whether or not someone would use a rifle for home defense in case a bad guy was wearing armor.

Then someone asked the question:

Reply from another poster: Where have you seen body armor used by BG's?

Maybe I assumed too much, because I would have sworn that the poster asking this question meant BG's to symbolize bad guys! Maybe though I was right on the money in keeping to the topic that was being discussed when I gave my answer. Since I have actually seen a few cases of bad guys with body armor, I replied with the following: I have arrested a few wearing it or having it handy in car or home already. Not many but a few in about 26 years. Certain groups are known to have body armor readily available at all times like bad cops, certain motorcycle gangs, drug gangs (highly professional ones anyhow), whackos, terrorists and so forth. Even low life burglars sometimes wear body armor if they have stolen it somewhere.

Did I ever say, imply, write or in any way indicate I was saying only criminals use body armor? We were talking b\about criminals, so I kind of thought it would be obvious that when I mentioned certain groups often have body armor AND, when I mentioned only criminal groups, that it would be QUITE OBVIOUS that I was sticking to the topic of this thread and was lending support to the thread originator's claim that some bad guys are wearing body armor while at the same time answering a question that was posed.

If you had read all of this thread, heck if you had read all of my post, you would have seen that I was answering a question someone had raised. I was not making any statement about New York State laws, nor about any imaginary Republic's laws, nor about the police or other law enforcement (except the few that are also among the criminal element, and bear in mind we were speaking about criminals before your reply, and yes some cops lead a life of crime).

The fact is that bad guys, especially certain groups of bad guys, are sometimes known to use body armor if they have it available. Using this piece of information as part of your list of considerations when determining which weapon with which to defend your home is a valid logical approach to making such a choice in weaponry. I guess you somehow missed my point.

Unless your point was to give a snippy and rude reply to me, I guess I missed your point.

Rather flabbergasted by your reply,
Glenn B

CB900F
August 20, 2005, 11:07 AM
MachIV;

I remember that, my condolences.

In answer to your question though, no I don't keep a rifle handy. A Great Falls cop recently got shot in the chest with a .22 rimfire. He reported it to felt like somebody hit him in the chest (wearing the armor) as hard as they could with a ball-peen hammer. The range was something like 3 feet. He walked up to a traffic stop & got shot by the driver, who later suicided at the end of the event.

I'm kind of feeling that if a .22 feels like that, a major caliber anything is going to feel much worse. Incapacatatingly worse. Three or four rapid blows to C.O.M. at in-home range would most likely render the invader helpless long enough to be able to pick a non-armored target. Remember we're talking the difference also between .22 rimfire, with terminal energy figures in the low 100's of foot pounds, and .357's, .40's, .45's & so on that have hundreds of percent more energy.

I have the feeling that who gets the first shot off that hits, will be the survivor.

Shaun, I think you're trolling.

900F

GRB
August 20, 2005, 11:08 AM
Bogie, If I had seen your post I would not have had to have typed out my own rather long one. I guess we were typing at about the same time.

Thanks,
Glenn B

lee n. field
August 20, 2005, 11:09 AM
......Keeps a rifle close at hand for home protection? Obviously, pretty much every member on this board keeps a hungun or shotgun (or both) for home defense, as do I. But it seems that more and more often, the bad guys are wearing body armor. Not all of them, but the ones who truly intend to do damage

Really? The "walk in traffic" here is far more likely to be some punk kid than armored private sector thugs.

Rifle close at hand? No.

Shaun
August 20, 2005, 11:10 AM
just a misinterpretation glen

rbernie
August 20, 2005, 11:12 AM
Trying to reel this one back in.....

I do not keep a rifle handy for HD. The simple fact is that I cannot find a nightstand-sized electronic safe for the AR but I can find one sized to fit a 1911. When you live in a house with small children, keping rifles handy just becomes too unwieldy and a handgun becomes much more practical for HD.

So, in a sense, it doesn't matter what the BG is wearing - I gotta use what I can readily access *and* safely store.

stevelyn
August 20, 2005, 12:38 PM
Not necessarily for HD, but I do keep my Daewoo K2 handy with a loaded mag next to it for stray dogs and such that are near the outside of the effective range of my .22s.

biere
August 20, 2005, 12:56 PM
Play with google and criminal and body armor or just check out the home invasion news.

Lots of body armor and lots of police impersonators in the news on the net.

I live in the country and often have to go outside to deal with some small varmints, I seem to be over run with raccoons and oppossums these days for some reason. A neighbor says there is a heck of a dog pack around as well.

Right now I have a single action in 44 mag on my computer desk since I am accurate with it at longer distances and leaning against a file cabinet is a new to me shotgun and I have a couple other shotguns out as well since I have been attracting shotguns like a magnet lately.

For my home I am happy with what a shotgun can accomplish since I think it will solve the problem with either buckshot or slugs. Depends on if there is a choked tube attached or not.

One thing to remember with armor is that it does not cover the entire body, so someone mentioned failure drills and that is something to keep in mind.

kngflp
August 20, 2005, 02:08 PM
Yes, I have my Mak 90 stashed in my closet with a mag loaded with an empty chamber. If my little nephew or others are around I can easily secure it by releasing the mag and putting it up. If for some reason I needed more than the handguns or shotguns I keep loaded, all I have to do is charge the rifle.

xdoctor
August 20, 2005, 02:27 PM
My L1A1 is always at the ready. Keep it right next to the bed.

Malamute
August 20, 2005, 02:28 PM
" Who else keeps a rifle close at hand for home protection?"

I do.

Third_Rail
August 20, 2005, 02:44 PM
If I owned one, I would. All I have is a 12ga for now...


Well, I DO have a 30-06 I could use, but c'mon... That's overkill for suburbia.



If I had my pick (which I may in a few more months), I'd be using a pump or lever action .38spl or .44spl, leaning toward the .38spl for price reasons.

mattw
August 20, 2005, 02:51 PM
I'm kind of feeling that if a .22 feels like that, a major caliber anything is going to feel much worse. Incapacatatingly worse.

I have never done any drugs that weren't prescribed to me so i'm not sure what it is like to be high or rolling on something but if it is anything like being very drunk then getting hit in the chest as hard as possible with a ball peen hammer would not hurt nearly as much as you might think. Keep in mind that while the "smart" ones that wear body armor might not be smart enough not to get hopped up on something before they try to rob you. drugs+body armor= no pain and no fatal damage? is that a fair assumption? I think a headshot with 00 buck wouldn't be all that hard. even at just a few yards you'll have a couple inches of spread out of a 18.5" barrel.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
August 20, 2005, 04:32 PM
I keep my FAL or my Garand close at hand and ready while I'm home because I'm good with them.

I've found that your best work is done with the tools you are most skilled with.


That's not to say that I don't keep a handgun available.


Regards,
Rabbit.

wdlsguy
August 20, 2005, 04:42 PM
AR-15 carbine stoked with 45 gr JHP.

CB900F
August 20, 2005, 05:45 PM
Mattw;

OK, let's do the numbers. A very reasonable energy figure for a .22 rimfire is 100 ft lbs of energy at household distances. Forty grain bullet at approx. 1100 fps will do.

Let's contrast that with a 125 gr bullet from a .357 magnum traveling at 1400+ fps. In this case, a very reasonable figure will be 550 ft lbs of energy.

Then, please consider that the armor is going to make it almost certain that a maximum energy dump is going to take place; no overpenetration considerations here.

Therefore, my thoughts are that no matter how hopped up the invader may be, he's not going to be effective after taking C.O.M. hits.

A typical ball-peen hammer weighs 1 pound. I wonder what the energy level is when we give a gorilla a 4lb machinist's maul & let him swing for the fences? Or, who's willing to put on body armor, lay on a concrete floor & let a 10 pound weight be dropped on their chest from 55 feet above them?

Why, I think the force of my argument may actually sweep the B/G off his feet!

900F

chaim
August 21, 2005, 12:11 AM
I don't really keep a rifle loaded up.

I figure most likely there won't be a home invasion with someone wearing body armor. If they do, in addition to a handgun I keep either a shotgun or my .45LC Winchester 94 (a pistol caliber carbine doesn't count as a rifle for body armor penatration) and I figure the extra barrel length should aid me in gaining a headshot should I need to.

I do keep a rifle semi-ready however. I live in MD so I would not want to use my AR (not PC enough- way to EBR looking, I'm quite sure it wouldn't go over very well with prosecutors and juries around here). I live in a 'burb where the neighbors are pretty close so I wouldn't want anything bigger than .223/5.56. So, I don't keep anything loaded. However, for certain emergencies that called for it I could put my SKS into action fairly quickly- unzip the rifle case it is usually kept in and load in 10 of the 100 rounds I keep ready on stripper clips.

coonan357
August 21, 2005, 02:02 AM
rifle , nope slugs and buck yes and slugs to the chest and pellets to the groin area ,( was told a head shot in illinois is considered murder) no matter what the circumsances but if it need be 2 to the chest one to the head . rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6 .

cslinger
August 21, 2005, 02:07 AM
Let's see.

Tier 1
Wife and I
Some kind of handgun .45, 9mm, .357 magnum etc.

Tier 2
Wife and I
Shotguns 12 gauge.
Benelli Nova, 2 870s and a Beretta 1201fp

Tier 3 TSHRHTF and the shottys are out of ammo.
Wife and I
2 AR15s, M1A squad scout

Tier 4 Holy Hell Society Just Broke Down
Wife and I
We have ammunition for every single firearm we own.

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