Effectiveness of the .380?

I'm looking for something very small. I recently started a new job. It's a small company(20 or so employees), and we're in a very rural part of Oregon, so I don't think carrying would be a big deal, and there's nothing I've seen or heard forbidding it. All the same, I have this job through a temp agency(for now), which means I must be very careful. I could find another job, sure. However, the hours are perfect, the work is what I want, the location(<5 minutes drive from my house) is great, and the pay increases are very generous. There have already been hints after 2 weeks, of my position becoming permanent after 90 days. To needlessly complicate matters would be plain dumb.
I plan to go on a "don't ask, don't tell policy. If the boss doesn't ask if I'm carrying, I won't tell him. I don't forsee any disgruntled emplyees shooting the place up, and we are not in a violent city or part of one. However, crap happens, and Murphy's law does apply. My job is very physical, and concealment of my Glock 21, 22, or .44 special will not work at all. I need something tiny .
I've looked at the Kel Tec P3AT, and it seems ideal. I can slip it in a pocket, and nobody will be the wiser. I only need a gun to get me to my truck, perhaps 100 yards away at most, then I'm gone. I plan to keep more gun in the truck, as well. The Kel Tec would also serve as a BUG when not at work. I'm close enough to an exit door in my work area that I could easily be gone quickly.
The price is right, too.
So, my questions are these...
Is the .380 a reliable cartridge, and is the P3AT a reliable gun for my situation? Do any of you folks have a P3AT? What are the negatives? Would any of you feel uncomfortable in my situation with just the .380 for defense?
Anyone?
Also, anybody have links to ballistics testing for the round?

I have a P3 and it has proven acceptably reliable, although not particularly fun to shoot. As far as the effectiveness of the .380 ACP round, it is an intermediate cartridge and performs accordingly. Significantly better than .22, .25 or .32, it is not on par with 9x19, .40, 10mm or .45. However, when situation demands something smaller, it is the most effective round you will get in a true mouse gun. Using such ammunition as Cor-Bon or Speer Gold dots, etc. makes the round that much more. While I prefer to carry my 10mm, when situation dictates I cannot, I simply remember that the .380 Auto has killed a great many people over the last century. Shot placement is everything, and any gun is better than no gun.

Go to ktog.org. They have a site and most of the owners seem to like them.

Kevin

I've got the p32 for use as a "I just can't seem to conceal anything else in this situation" gun. So far mine has been totally reliable, and its surprisingly accurate. You do need to practice, though--the trigger etc take some getting used to. And its true they aren't really fun to shoot. Definitely serve a purpose.

.380ACP is woefully underpowered, even for a handgun cartridge. You are better spitting at your foe than firing at him with an impotent .380ACP. Don't let the fact that I will soon be carrying something chambered for it sway you. ;)

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with .380ACP. I just read a THR thread discussing a recent shooting where a man took three .45ACP shots and still had to be put down with batons and pepper spray. Handguns are not death rays. Out of a heavier gun than the Keltec, .380ACP is easy to shoot. I have a Makarov chambered for that round and I could shoot it all day. If I had the opportunity and was going to be holding a firecracker anyway, it would be something concealable with a slightly more powerful round, say a S&W 642 and .38 Spec?

I don't have any personal experience with the Keltec brand, but nothing I've seen or read has made me want to own one.

HTH, jmm

The .380 is underpowered for defensive purposes when compared to its more
well-endowed brethren. The .380 is perfectly capable of ruining your day.
Roughly equal to the standard pressure .38 Special with 158-grain round nose lead bullets, it's also capable of sending you on to glory, and quickly if well placed. Lotta graves have been filled with the old wimpy .38 Special. If I were in a medium to high risk area, and had to choose between the .380 and a sharp stick...you don't have to wonder what I'd choose.

Don't expect match-grade accuracy, though some fine little pistols chambered for the round will shock you with ragged groups. It wasn't intended to win matches with, and neither were the pistols that take it.
It's a close-quarters defensive gun that will most likely be deployed at touching distance...A "Belly Gun".

Best to stick with round nose full metal jacket ammo. Penetration is the fly in the ointment. Just my 2% of a buck...

The P3AT sounds perfect for your application. Just make sure yours runs well and get a good pocket holster for it.

Regrettably, I've never found the baby Kel-Tec's to be acceptably reliable. I've owned two P3-AT's and three P32's, and not one would go 200 rounds without a stoppage (or more than one) of some kind. Since I regard the classic 200-rounds-without-any-problems test as being absolutely fundamental for a defensive firearm, I don't own small Kel-Tec's any more...

My suggestion would be an airweight or titanium J-frame or equivalent. They're not hard to conceal in a pocket holster, and I'm comfortable with their reliability.

You need a Rohrbaugh R9, very small, 9mm, and very well made, but expensive. :uhoh:

The KT P-32/.380 are perfect for your situation. Agree with them being not fun to shoot but a whole lot better than being unarmed.

As far as reliability is concerned, some people demand the 200 round test before they will trust a pistol for carry. This is WAY beyond the mission profile of the mousegun and may not be a valid test for them. The most any MG will be fired in anger is probably two magazines.

My P-32 has been flawless each time I burn up the carry mags but I wouldn't want to bet that it would fire 200 rounds without cleaning. So far, 300 rounds without failure but no more than 30 or so at any particular range session. I think this is adequate for the weapon.

If you want an auto that you can carry around comfortably all day in your front pocket without being noticed the P-3AT would be fine. Something that small and easy to carry requires a compromise in power. Reports are that they are iffy out-of-the-box. Some work perfectly, some have problems (about 50/50).

The NAA Guardian would also work well, smaller, but heavier (20 oz. loaded, may not be as comfortable all day, although many think it is fine), and costs more (about $400). Comes in .380 and .32NAA the latter which many think is more potent than either the .380 or 9mm (except 9mm +p), but the .32NAA ammo is expensive and only Cor-Bon makes it. Most Guardians seem to be more reliable out-of-the-box by most reports than the P-3AT.

The Rohrbaugh is heavier (17 oz. loaded), about the same size, and more potent (9mm, no +P), but costs a lot more (about $1000) and may be harder to find. Most of them are very reliable out-of-the box by most reports. The "Cadillac" of mouseguns.

Whichever you choose -- keep it clean (mouseguns need to be clean) and use a holster.

I can't speak about that particular gun, I use a SIG P230 in the 380 cal. To help "even the odds" so to speak as compared to some of the larger calibers, I always keep HydraShocks in my mag and I am comfortable with its ability to stop an approaching threat. So, 380 with the right cartridge would be fine, as long as the gun shooting it is reliable.

It sounds as if from your post that the KelTec .380 should serve you well for its intended purpose. I have a NAA Guardian .32 that I carry when I absolutely positively can't carry anything larger. I personally much prefer my S&W 442 Airweight as a pocket gun when I can carry it and feel much more secure with it. As Preacherman suggested if your style of dress permits I too would strongly recommend taking a look at one of the concealed hammer styles of lightweight revolvers.

I have a couple of Second-Generation P-3ATs and a bunch of First-Generation P-3ATs and all now function 100%.

Two P-3ATs that I bought used earlier this year required a bit of tinkering (less than 2 hrs combined). The factory would have fixed theses minor problems free but the owners elected to sell them to me for pennies on the dollar rather spending $14 to send them to Florida.

If you buy a P–3AT plan on firing 200 rounds of mixed copper cased ammo through for break-in before determining how it functions. If you do a Fluff & Buff you can eliminate most of the break-in rounds. If it isn’t 100% by then send it to Kel-Tec or visit KTOG.com or KTRange.com.

PS there are several .380 rounds that will consistently penetrate 16 inches out of a P-3AT barrel.

Get the chromed model. They seem to be a touch more likely to be reliable. The only Kel-Tec mini-pistol I've fired is hard-chromed and has never jammed.

Preacherman, did you Kel Tec ever jam at say under 50 rounds?

I have always wondered about that 200 round rule. If the gun never jams at less than the number of rounds you are carrying, then your gun is 100% reliable for carry purposes.

I agree its nice when a gun will go more than 200 rounds without a jam. But some of the smaller guns like the Kel Tec are very sensitive to being clean, and if it is just jamming from getting dirty, and not a mechanical problem, then I think it is fine if it won't go 200 rounds.

Preacherman stated:

"Regrettably, I've never found the baby Kel-Tec's to be acceptably reliable. I've owned two P3-AT's and three P32's, and not one would go 200 rounds without a stoppage (or more than one) of some kind. Since I regard the classic 200-rounds-without-any-problems test as being absolutely fundamental for a defensive firearm, I don't own small Kel-Tec's any more...

My suggestion would be an airweight or titanium J-frame or equivalent. They're not hard to conceal in a pocket holster, and I'm comfortable with their reliability."

Actually, I've had mine for about 6 months and have been pleased. I carry it everywhere and do not find it uncomfortable to shoot for 30-50 rds. at a time. I had to send it to Kel-Tec to have the feed ramp & barrel polished because it was not reliable out of the box. However, it now runs reliably for about 40 rounds before it needs cleaning. I have not tried it for 200 rds. non-stop between cleanings since it is not designed to function reliably for that long. Its a backup gun and its not likely you will need it to function through more than 1 to 2 mags (12-13 rds). I realize that some may not agree with this but for what its designed, I am fine with it.

For the purpose that fjolnirsson states I would have no problem trusting it. That is, as long as you wring it out really well. You may even have to send it in to Kel-Tec for polishing but they move pretty quickly and will get it right back to you.

g_gunter

Dirt sensitive and if it doesn't jam for the number of rounds normally carried...Hmmm. That appeals to logic, but the fly in the ointment is that carrying a gun gets it dirty. Lint, grit, etc. can work its way into tiny recesses and gum up the works. Another logical, but unrealistic assumption is that...because the biggest percentage of gunfights are over within 5 rounds total expenditure, that if the gun doesn't jam in 5 rounds, it can be trusted.
In a 50-round test, with a jam on the 49th round there's just no way to predict when that jam will occur the next time.

I dunno...Better that the gun function for 200 rounds minimum...dirty or clean...Drippin' with oil or dry as a popcorn poot...regardless of grip or attitude. (Straight up or canted to the side...or even upside down for that matter.) Anyway...Those are my criteria, but then, I'm anal over reliability.
YMMV

I have always wondered about that 200 round rule. If the gun never jams at less than the number of rounds you are carrying, then your gun is 100% reliable for carry purposes.

That is not good math, my friend. IF your gun can only fire one magazine without jamming, it is a plinker at best (better used as a paper weight) If the MRBS is 7 rounds, the gun is extremely UNreliable. If it is 200 rounds, the gun is fairly reliable. 2000+ rounds, and the gun is very reliable. But no gun is 100% reliable for any purpose. Even a single shot can fail if there is part breakage or defective ammunition.

The 200 MRBS rule is applied because it shows the gun is roughly 99.5% reliable. Your life is worth that. My Kel Tec P3 is 98.8 % reliable with all ammunition tested (83 MRBS), having fired 250 rounds through it with 3 failures. It is 99.5% reliable with Speer Gold Dots and 96% reliable with UMC 90 gr. FMJ (200 rounds of Gold Dot with 1 failure, 50 rounds of UMC with 2 failures).

I pray that anyone who fires a gun at me uses one that has an MRBS average of 1 magazine. That means I'll be able to walk up and crack their skull when (not if) their gun fails.

MachIV...+1 and have to agree 100%. 2,000 rounds is my litmus test too.
If I get a single malfunction, other than failure to lock the slide, I try to duplicate the malfunction with the same ammo...under the same conditions with the same magazine 10 times. If it doesn't happen again, I continue.
If it happens again at ANY point, I start lookin' for why. If the gun passes, I'll carry it.

Ask yourselves...If you bought a case lot of ammo that gave up one misfire per hundred rounds...would you use it in your carry pistol?

Go to ktog.org. They have a site and most of the owners seem to like them.

Sure enough. Anyone who says anything negative gets banned and their posts get removed!

Sadly, KelTec has such a great customer service reputation because a high percentage of KelTec owners have to send in their guns for service. KelTec treats them right, but the guns should not have left the factory in the first place in the conditions they do. KelTec relies on the customer for quality control.

MachIVshooter and Tuner,

First, let me say I am not advocating carrying a gun that is unreliable or can only fire one magazine without failing.

Also, I agree with your math, but that is not the point I am raising.

I am raising a very specific situation:

Lets say your Kel Tec (or whatever) can always fire 49 rounds without jamming, but then it gets dirty and will always jam on the 50th round. This gun would fail the 200 round test, but does that really mean it is unfit for carry?

Obviously, if a gun has a mechanical problem or jams sporadically, then this theoretical example would not apply, and the gun is not trustworthy. But I have several guns that will not fail ever until they get dirty. I have some really tight 1911s that I can almost predict to the round when they will fail from dirtiness.

Would you deem a gun to be unfit for carry if it would always 100% of the time and without fail be able to fire 49 consecutive rounds, and then fail 100% of the time on the 50th round?

I carry a Glock most of the time, so I never have to worry about these jams other people talk about, anyway. :D

Lone Gunman...I hear what yer sayin'.

My point was that you can't depend on just where that jam will occur within the 50-rounds. Never seen one that would run perfectly for a definite number of rounds and then hang up at a predictable number. one. Once in 50 or 100 or a thousand, etc. generally comes anywhere without knowing. if we could know, we'd fire until it jammed...clear it...and venture forth secure that it wouldn't happen again unless we reached its limit.

I suggest a minimum of 9mm or preferably a compact 45 auto like the PT-145 Millennium Pro. About as small as any 380 and 3 times as effective.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/prod_images/1-145039P.jpg?px_fullquility_384564

Under $300 at Davidsons.

Let's see,
Taurus Millineum Pro-23oz, empty.
Kel Tec p-11, 20 oz, loaded.
Kel Tec p-3AT, 10 oz, loaded.

I'd love to carry a subcompact .45
I just know it isn't an option, given my work environment. Anything that large will print like an elephant under my clothes.

I would love one of those hammerless lightweight revolvers Preacherman was talking about. No worries with reliablity there, but it just isn't in my price range right now. same with the rohrbach's(sp?).
I am seriously considering the P-11, though. Not much bigger, and a 9mm. I'm gonna try to make it back to the gun shop this week to handle both.
Thanks for the input, everybody.

A compact 45 can't be compared to the p3AT in terms of ability to be concealed.

For that matter, neither can a compact 9mm.

If you haven't seen it yet this post may help a bit:
http://www.thehighroad.org./showpost.php?p=1730060&postcount=119

A .380 round isn't a lot, I can't argue that. And a P3AT is a tiny little pistol, smaller than a lot of .22/.32s. There are a lot of bigger and heavier pistols and a lot of more powerful rounds, no arguments there either.

But it does little good to compare apples and oranges.

I think a .380 is minimally acceptable as a defensive round, in circumstances where nothing larger can be carried. And a P3AT is an acceptable envelope for it when nothing larger or heavier can be managed. KelTec turns out as many tiny centerfire autopistols (that's .32 and .380) in a month as the more expensive mouseguns mentioned (Rorabaugh, NAA etc) do in a year. And they sell like hotcakes, my most recent P3AT came out of a batch of five (or was it six?) that my dealer got in on Monday- by the middle of that week they were all gone.

I really wonder how many folks who badmouth KTs have ever owned or fired one. There are two P3ATs in our family, both hardchrome first generation examples. Both have been 100% reliable out of the box with a variety of ammunition, over the course of several hundred rounds fired.

I would hate to have to depend on ANY handgun to stop someone intent on doing me harm. Yet the ability to carry a tiny, lightweight pistol chambered in a reasonably poweful cartridge for such a small envelope is nothing to be sneezed at. I carry a P3AT in a Hedley pocket holster everywhere it is legal to do so. Sometimes I carry something more powerful as well, but the P3AT is an 'any pocket, any time' gun.

lpl/nc

I recently bought a Kel-Tec p3-at .380 and have put about 120 rounds through it. winchester winclean was the first, and it jammed frequently. Then i got some remington hollowpoints, and they are better but a jam happens about 1 out of 15-20 shots, sometimes more often. I lubricated it well too. Its a beautiful little weapon, and adequately accurate but so far unreliable.

Got to have a reliable pistol for SD and in 380, that means ball ammo instead of HP's.

Might want to consider CCI Blaser for improved performance and polish the feed ramp while you're at it.

I have had my KT3AT self destruct several times and it has gone back to the factory twice. I had to file down the end of the feed ramp with a flat file to get the thing to work right. It now works OK. It is very important to keep it clean. Before you carry it clean it and lightly oil it. Never fire it in practice and then carry it without a good cleaning everytime.

The round I carry is Winchester white box 95 grain FMJ Semi Wadcutter. I get an average velocity of 847 FPS.

FMJ RN 95 grain rounds from Remington UMC average 846 FPS and Federal American Eagles are a little bit faster at 867 FPS.

FMJ RN 92 grain from Seller and Bellot are lower at 812 FPS.

Speer Gold Dot 90 grain hollow points average 898 FPS.

Remington Golden Saber 102 grain Hollow Points average 800 FPS.

Do not use Russian Sapsan brand 92 grain FMJ. It only averaged 694 FPS and did not fully cycle the slide.

Santa Barbara 87 grain truncated FMJ (has a non expanding blunt lead tip) are the fastest averaging 917 FPS but with a very wide spread with some rounds at 1000 FPS with marked recoil. A plastic piece in my trigger mechanism snaped after firing about 10 rounds of Santa Barbara ammo.

Never had and probably never will have a Kel-Tec. But I can say that regardless of the pistol brand or model, I consider .380 sub-par as a caliber for defense. I do have a Kahr PM-9 and for it's size, weight, and seven rounds of 9mm +P, I consider it to be the smallest, lightest self defense pistol I would consider. It would certainly seem that for walking from work to the parking lot in a rural area of Oregon, you would be hard pressed to EVER have a need for a self-defense handgun AT ALL! And if you did have such a need, a little 9mm like the PM-9 would be much more effective and comforting to have than a .380.

Personally, I consider 9mm or .38 spl. +P to be the bare minimum caliber for defense. And there are reliable, quality guns of small enough size and weight in those calibers to meet pretty much any circumstance.

As far as # of rounds before jamming is concerned, I too would require at least 150-200 rounds of trouble free use before expectation of a jam before considering carrying the gun with expectations to run flawlessly for just one or two magazines in a gunfight.

I have a KelTec P32, have fired it at the range several times, have never had any problem with it.Mine is carried constantly,by itself in a pocket, has been dropped, bumped, dirty and wet, carried with mags loaded for 2 months, (MecGar mags) and still no problems.

It's not a joy to shoot, and it's no target pistol, but it's a great design that works, and the company is very good with customer support. ( I hear - I never had to use it.)

I carry this gun when I am unarmed, and as a backup to my Ruger .357 revolver.

Mark

I stay away from FMJ target ammo (for carry) since having a round come apart in a magazine. Good FMJ is hard to find on the shelf, so I ordered several boxes of Remington Express FMJ from Cheaperthandirt. That's the stuff in the green and yellow boxes.

I also have shot ~200 rounds thru my P3AT without a problem of any sort. The only thing I dislike about it is that the ejected brass tends to hit me in the forehead, but it sure is handy and small.

If you are restricted to a .380, use Cor-Bon ammo if it will feed reliably. It pumps up the .380 to about the equilivent of the .38 Special/9MM. It will be somewhat less plesant to shoot but not much. Cor-Bon obtains higher velocities by maintaining peak pressure over a longer duration rather than by having higher peak pressures. So there is a bit more recoil but not that much.

Give them a try if you go the .380 route.

I also have shot ~200 rounds thru my P3AT without a problem of any sort. The only thing I dislike about it is that the ejected brass tends to hit me in the forehead, but it sure is handy and small.

Call Kel-Tec 1-800-515-9983 and ask for the service department. Explain the problem and ask them to send you a couple of different styles of Ejectors (part #115). Some of my P-3ATs prefer different shapes, which change the angle the brass is thrown. These should be sent free.

From what I've seen of P3ATs, I wouldn't recommend one. The instance that springs to mind is a woman next to me at the range a bunch of weeks ago. She was doing good with some kind of .22 and a Ruger GP-100 (single action only); about 1-2" groups at 7 yards.

Then she pulled out her P3AT. Tried to chamber the first round, and it wouldn't go. Took a few tries to finally get it to load. *pop*, and it jammed, the second round was sticking partially out of the ejection port, primer-end up. Looked like it had nosedived into the feed-ramp, but still had enough upward velocity from the mag springs that the back was higher than the front. That happened 4 times in 2 mags. It wasn't limp-wristing at all, her wrists never moved. 33% failure rate, yeah, that sounds great.

Accuracy was poopy at best. Despite her taking about 30 seconds to pull the trigger for each shot, and the look of intense concentration on her face (and the fact that she had been doing good groups before), half her shots were off the paper.

Personally, I'd recommend an NAA Guardian, since like everyone's said, a compact .380 is basically a contact range only proposition. And the NAA has huge advantages over the Kel-Tec there.

It's blowback, with a barrel that's fixed to the frame (indeed, the barrel and frame are a single piece of metal), barely any of the slide is flush with the muzzle, the recoil spring is pretty stiff, and there's no disconnector (it's not a safety hazard at all, though, since the hammer is physically unable to strike the firing pin if the slide is retracted an unsafe distance), making it pretty close to impossible to make the gun go out of battery by jamming it into an adversary's body. In contrast, Kel-Tecs use a Browning locking-lug short-recoil action, which is a lot easier to move out of battery, since the barrel can move back with the slide.

An NAA Guardian is also a heckuvalot heavier than a Kel-Tec, so it makes a better bludgeon when empty. :D And it's all-stainless, so it's less likely to rust when left in an evidence vault for days/weeks/months/years while covered in blood. :D :D

An NAA Guardian is also a heckuvalot heavier than a Kel-Tec, so it makes a better bludgeon when empty. And it's all-stainless, so it's less likely to rust when left in an evidence vault for days/weeks/months/years while covered in blood.

With the P3 costing a mere $250, you just write it off at this point. A small price to pay for your life. besides, that only about 1/2 what the average annual hospital deductible is, and doctors cause as many problems as they fix in my experience.

The highest average muzzle energy I have gotten with my P3 was 208 FPE (90 gr. gold dots @ 1019 FPS). Kinda hard on the gun, but for the few rounds I fired to make sure it cycled and the couple I hope I never have to fire at anyone, these numbers are more confidence inspiring than most .380 loads from 2.5" tubes.

Wild Bill used a .36 and he never had problems with it even though it was about the same power if not weaker than a 380. Of course Bill knew how to place those bullets for the best results.

For deep cover or even as a back up I prefer my Colt Pony, it very accurate never failed to go bang and fits in my front pocket.
You should consider when carrying a 380, what the conditions are while carrying. If you are in a very cold area and everybody is wearing heavy jackets this is not the load to carry. (besides bulky cloths makes it easy to carry a .45.) But if your in a warm weather state it will do the job. I do think bigger is better though.
http://members.cox.net/k9trainer/pony%20003.jpg

With the P3 costing a mere $250, you just write it off at this point. A small price to pay for your life. besides, that only about 1/2 what the average annual hospital deductible is, and doctors cause as many problems as they fix in my experience.

Those last two were just jokes. The main reason I didn't get a P3AT are the terrible reliability I've witnessed (sure, some people have had good luck, but I am a lemon magnet), and the fact that the Guardian is pretty hard to take out of battery.

I really wonder how many folks who badmouth KTs have ever owned or fired one. +1

It's not a gun you can buy, pull out of the box and expect it to be perfect, for better or worse. If that is what you require, buy a Glock.

A Kel-Tec pocket gun is a wonderful gun for someone who wants to learn the process of fine tuning an inexpensive gun into something as good or better than other plastic carry weapons, at a fraction of the dollar cost. The added cost comes in the form of the opportunity (benefit, in my mind) to learn to make minor adjustments and modifications to tune the gun.

Some folks want to drive a car off the lot with all the bells and whistles in place. Others pull a Monster Garage job on them, totally modifying everything they can change, and adding aftermarket doodads to make it "their car".

The Kel-Tec pistols serve as an excellent platform to learn some basic home 'smithing. It was, for me, a great first gun that I didn't feel bad if I gouged too deep with a Dremel while attempting something, knowing how amazing KT's service is, they would usually send a replacement part and a spare or two, along with several other 'goodies' (extra mags, etc) gratis.

No, they're not for you if you want it out of the box "like butter". If you want to learn some DIY with the help of strong support from other owners at KTOG and/or KTRange, potentially making it as good or better than the NAA, Seecamp, or anything else comparable, then it remains a gun that you can personalize, tune for total reliability, and still have hundreds of dollars left over for ammo or another gun or whatever else floats your boat.

Question #1: Can you load and fire FMJ out of the Seecamp .380? How about the Guardian .380?

Question #2: Can anyone reference an internet link that demonstrates .380 ACP FMJ performs significantly better in scientific gel tests than .32 ACP FMJ?

Thank you for your direct answers to these questions.

Got to have a reliable pistol for SD and in 380, that means ball ammo instead of HP's.

Not true.

This Sunday, when getting ready to go to church then an afternoon of canoeing at a mountain lake I had a choice:
FEG RK-59 9mm Mak 19oz
Colt Cobra .38spl 16 oz.
Colt Agent .38spl 15 oz
S&W 296 .44spl 18oz.
Colt Officers LW .45 26oz
Glock 27 .40 23 oz.
Browning Baby .25 10oz.
OR
A Remington 51 .380 with Corbon ammo in a Roy Baker Original Pancake holster

Guess which one I took along? :D

While not totally true..........., if you want penetration with a 380, ball or FMJ-like Hyrdra-Shoks are necessary.

Question #1: Can you load and fire FMJ out of the Seecamp .380? How about the Guardian .380?

Question #2: Can anyone reference an internet link that demonstrates .380 ACP FMJ performs significantly better in scientific gel tests than .32 ACP FMJ?

Thank you for your direct answers to these questions.

1. No, yes. Seecamps have extremely short magazines, which will accomodate only some brands of JHP. Guardians will eat anything.

2. No links, but it should be a no-brainer. .32 ACP is 12% smaller in diameter and 23% smaller in area than .380, to begin with. .32 is only available in round FMJ or severely underpenetrating JHPs, while .380 has several brands of flat-nosed FMJ available, and 2 JHPs which almost penetrate adequately (Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot, both of which penetrate to ~11").

Question #2: Can anyone reference an internet link that demonstrates .380 ACP FMJ performs significantly better in scientific gel tests than .32 ACP FMJ?
This site has a lot of ballistics stuff for mouseguns and may answer your question:
http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

I have tried a P-3AT and it wasn't reliable, I think its just too much ooomph in too small/light a package. I got rid of it. I have since tried a P-32, and its 100% reliable. With good FMJ ammo reaching into the 850-950 FPS range, the .32ACP is not a bad round.

The good experience with my P-32 prompted me to get a Kel-Tec P-11 9mm, and it too has been 100%, though I haven't put over 200 rounds through it yet. I think Kel-Tecs are good pistols, they just don't look very appealing to the eye, but this keeps their cost at about 2/3 that of similar pistols (on average).

You also hear a lot of how so many people are having problems with their Kel-Tecs. Guys really, Kel-Tec does produce & sell a lot more guns than any other similar maker. The last thing I remember seeing was Seecamp was at like 1,500 a year, NAA at 5,000-7,000, and Kel-Tec was in the 20,000 I believe. Forgive me if I'm off on the numbers, but I'm fairly close. Point is, say Kel-Tec sold 20,000 P-32's in one year, if they had only 1% of them have issues, that would be 200 cases. If you only sell 5,000 units, at 1% that would be 50 complaints. Just look at the numbers.

With a really tiny gun I'd definitley think about the hottest FMJ ammo... or soft point, rather than hollow point ammo.

The .380 can be a destructive little cartridge but even good hollow points like the hydra-shock don't break heavy bones.

I have over 1500 rds thru my P3-AT. It has been a Great little gun, an it is in my pocket Every day.

I have an early modle S/N 11xx

This thread is surprisingly void of any ".380's suck" threads, which is refreshing. I think we can all agree that given a perfect situation, most of us would not choose a .380, but for what fjolnirsson (what a name!) is talking about using it for, I personally think its a great option. Are there other lightweight options out there? Sure, but cost is a determining factor, and while a Rohrbaugh might offer a better cartridge, they are awfully expensive, and I don't know that they offer substantially better performance for the cost. I certainly don't believe in being undergunned, but by the same token, shot placement is king.