[GAMALOT]

Hi guys, I have three old break tops from my Grandfather and have been told the original loads were black powder.
.32 S&W Short & .38 S&W.
Where can I find a box of each loaded with the recommended black powder?
I don't care to shoot these much but would like to toss a few rounds down range for old times sake.
Yes, the guns are in excellent condition and timed and locking up great.
Thanks.
Gary

[griz]

You might want to try asking these cowboy shooters. (http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=12) Most of what you find will be about reloading them, but certainly somebody sells loaded rounds. I know they sell them in 45 and 12 gauge for folks who want to shoot in the BP classes but don't reload.

[GAMALOT]

Thanks Griz, went there and found a little info but no real answers yet.
The big question is, back in 1880 what was the 32 S&W SHORT loaded with and is there a big difference if I find some 32 S&W SHORTS of today?
I think I have been in shops that carry the caliber but I am not up on this stuff to know the answers.
Same question would also apply to break top revolvers of the same time in 38 S&W.

[Murphster]

I was going to suggest The Old West Scrounger but they appear to have gone out of business. Let me throw this out for the more knowledgeable members of the forum: Although the cartridges themselves may have originally been loaded with black powder, is it possible the guns themselves were made for those calibers after smokeless came in? The reason I ask is that I once had an old break top Smith & Wesson in 38 S&W caliber. They were made up to 1919 (I think). I used factory 38 S&W (not exactly the most potent of loads) without a problem. However, if there's any doubt, it's certainly not worth endangering an old heirloom firearm over.

[Old Fuff]

GAMALOT:

During the 1880's cartridges were loaded with black powder. Smokeless powder didn't become common in handgun cartridges before the early 1900's.

The problem with the less expensive revolvers of that day isn't so much a matter of current condition as it is the nature of the steel they were made of. For the most part, if not totally, the guns like one ones you have were made out of low-carbon steel and not heat treated. in addition the bar stock used to make barrels and cylinders sometimes had seams in them that could cause a failure later.

Regarding the .32 S&W (short) and .38 S&W cartridges. Black powder is slower burning then most smokeless bowder, so the pressure rises slower in the cylinder and barrel when the former is used. So while the current factory loads have maximum pressures that are mild, and about the same as black powder loads, more stess is placed on the cylinder.

The matter become more complicated because manufacturers such as Harrington & Richardson, Iver Johnson, and others made revolvers of the same kind during the black powder era and then into the 20th century - up to about 1940. Obviously the later ones are of better quality (metal wise) then the earlier ones. Sometimes the only way to tell is by the gun's serial number. There are such listings, and I have some of them. But unfortunately at this time they are in one place and I'm in another.

The suggestion that you might find a custom cartridge maker through the Cowboy Action Shooting game is a good one. I would look in that direction.

[Jim Watson]

A fast pass through the Cowboy Chronicle and SASS Wire found nobody selling black powder .32 S&W or .38 S&W ammunition.

There are a fair number of these old guns in use for CAS Pocket Pistol events and most folks shoot smokeless factory loads without harm. But they are old guns lightly constructed of mild steel and you are pretty much on your own to shoot them with anything. If we knew the makes and models we could tell you more.

[GAMALOT]

Hi Jim. Attached photo of guns in question.

Top- Forehand & Wadsworth "American Bull Dog" .32 S&W short. NO SN.

Middle- H&R Auto Eject .38 S&W CTGE. Has Pat.dates on top of barrel, August 6, 1889 & October 8, 1895. SN 193XXX. Blued with exposed hammer.

Bottom- H&R .38 S&W CTGE. Has Pat. Dates on top of barrel, May 14 & Aug 6 '89, April 2, '95, April 7, '96. SN 63XXX. Chrome/Nickle, Hammerless.

As I said in the beginning of my original thread "Grandpa's Guns", I don't need to shoot these but would like to just for the fun of it if I can find the correct ammo.
Thank you.
Gary
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/Revolvers.jpg

[Chuck R.]

Black powder is slower burning then most smokeless bowder, so the pressure rises slower in the cylinder and barrel when the former is used.

Hmmmmm, don't think so.

More like the other way around BP is much faster burning than smokeless. It’s also the reason why BP is rated as a low grade explosive, and some stores won’t stock it. If I'm not mistaken, BP doesn't have the capability to develop the higher pressures that smokeless powder does, and the pressure curve is different. That's why it's safer to load BP in many older guns.

Chuck

[Old Fuff]

I beg to disagree.

In fact it is not unusual to find unburned black powder in front of a firing line because the ball or bullet exited the barrel before all of the powder ignited, and I'm talking about a rifle here.

It is also part of the reason smokeless powder loads are not recommended for use in Damascus barreled shotguns.

It would be correct to say that SOME smokeless powder burns slower then black, but those are not used in handgun loads.

In older revolvers there are two problems, the most critical being the quality of steel used to fabricate the cylinder during the 19th century, and the second being elevated pressure in the chamber.

That is one reason that when you handle a modern reproduction of a Civil War period cap & ball revolver it will plainly be marked, "for black powder only," and most of those guns are made from better material then the originals.

[The Bushmaster]

Say...Has anyone seen any .38 short rimfires in black powder??? :rolleyes: Been lookin' for quite a while for my grandfather's "Saturday go to the dance" (that's what he called it) pocket revolver. I don't wish to shoot them. Just display them with the revolver...

[Jim Watson]

One reason that Damascus barrel shotguns are not safe with smokeless is because modern nitro powders are progressive burning and black is not (unless it is Rodman cannon powder) and the barrel thickness is tapered out more from the breech. The usual place a Damascus shotgun barrel lets go with nitro is about 8" up the barrel where black powder has pretty much burnt out and pressure is decaying but nitro is still burning and maintaining a higher pressure at that point in time and shot charge travel.
I don't think black powder blowing out the muzzle is proof that it is "slower burning" than smokeless, it is mostly because black powder generates a majority of solid combustion products. How do you tell dirty potassium carbonate from powder?

[Chuck R.]

Old Fuff

By all means don’t take my word for it, why don’t you test it yourself. Just lay out 40 or so grains of smokeless in a line, use something fast like Bullseye or RD, then ignite it. Do the same with BP, it won’t matter if its 1F or 3F. Do yourself a favor though, use a long match for the BP and cover your eyebrows.

BP is faster, but develops less pressure, and the pressure curve is different than smokeless. You might be finding unburned BP because your load is overbore. Also the powder column acts like a projectile only so much can be burnt based on barrel length.

Keep in mind the charge weight differences between smokeless and BP.

Chuck

[Old Fuff]

Both the pressure curves are indeed different, but smokeless is "progressive burning," which means it burns faster as pressure increases. So an open air test won't tell you anything. And yes, the charges are different. Most of our popular revolver cartridges are desended from black-powder ones. Consequently they have much more capacity then is need for smokeless powder. Pistol cartridges were developed to use smokeless powder, and so are much shorter. A case full of black powder won't hurt a .38 Special, but filling it with Bullseye would blow up the gun. So you are right, a charge of smokeless powder in say, a .32 S&W would be much smaller then the same charge in black powder. While it would generate the same pressure level, it do it faster - more so in the cylinder and breech end of the barrel. This is the reason for the common warning: "Don't shoot smokeless power loads in old guns intended for use with black powder!" If the pressure curves were indeed identical there would be no reason for the warning if the gun(s) were in good shape.

Back during the 1950's many people wanted to shoot older Colt Single Action Army revolvers that were made prior to 1890. To do so they had new cylinders made of modern steel fitted to their guns. Sometimes they replaced the barrel too, but unless they were going to a different chambering or the old barrel was worn out that change wasn't necessary. After the new cylinder was fitted there was no reason to not shoot the vintage six-shooters.

At the same time some folks continued to shoot the same kind of revolvers without changing cylinders, and got away with it! Others didn't and ended up with a ruined gun. The industry rule is a simple one: Only use ammunition that is appropriate for whatever gun you are shooting.

[goon]

I wonder...
Maybe you could get some casings and dies and load some light loads with just a wee bit of black powder and 00 or 000 buck pellets, depending on caliber.
My dad has an old Iver Johnson .38 S&W that he couldn't even give away. I am thinking that some day I am going to repair it (it is badly out of time) and play around with reduced loads slinging 000 buck pellets at about the speed of smell.
Anyone else think this might work?

[Old Fuff]

That has come to my mind also - in both .32 and .38 S&W. Yes it will work, although you may have to shoot them one-at-a-time if they aren't crimped in the case. I would also think a lubricated felt was on top of the powder might prove to be good to prevent excessive leading, although this might not be necessary considering the limited bearing surface a round ball would have.

Edited to add: With black powder you don't have to limit the loads. The cases are too small to hold enough powder to cause trouble.

[goon]

I am thinking that if you seated it short enough you would be able to give it a crimp. If not, sizing the case down should make it tight enough to pinch a round ball tightly. If not I don't think that a light blackpowder load would generate enough recoil to jar the projectile out.
I will admit that this is alot of "thinking" with no actual trial on my part.
But I think it is worth a try.

[Old Fuff]

Well you're thinking is correct, and the big ammunition companies used to offer such loads for indoor practice. The cartridges under discussion (.32 and .38 S&W) don't hold enough black powder too do any damage unless the gun itself has some serious defects. It is important that the ball (or over-powder wad if you use one) be seated firmly on top of the powder charge, which should be slightly compressed. I think you are right concerning the case gripping the ball if it is resized, but these days .32 and .38 S&W loading dies are a special order item that might cost more then the revolver's worth. Maybe a light squeeze with a pair of pliers would do it.

Where there's a will, they'll be a way ... ;)

[BEARMAN]

.32 S&W short and .38 S&W dies are a standard listing at LEE ( www.leeprecision.com ) and not any more costly than more modern calibers.

[Old Fuff]

Well now, that's interesting ... :D

[RichardHavens]

As Old Fuff initially indicates, black powder will burn more slowly under pressure and at a vastly smaller PSI than smokeless powder. While some may get away with using smokeless loads for firearms designed for blackpowder, it is risky. Smokeless will burn much faster under compression and have a much greater PSI. For those with firearms designed for blackpowder, I recommend using only blackpowder. Sure, the firearm may withstand the additional pressures, but then again, it might not.

Blackpowder was used exclusively by all firearms until 1896, and the industry did not go to the smokeless standard until around 1919. So if you have a firearm manufactured before 1919, it is likely that you must use blackpowder to avoid the risk of damage to the firearm...and yourself. If your firearm was made between 1896 and 1919, you will need to research if it is designed for smokeless or blackpowder loads. If it was made in or before 1896, blackpowder is the only safe option.

I have a "Baby Russian" Type 2 Smith and Wesson break-top manufactured around 1876. It is in the popular .38 S&W caliber which remained in production until all the way until the 1940s. Many gun stores still carry the .38 S&W cartridge, but it is a smokeless load. While these cartridges will certainly fit nicely in the Baby Russian, to shoot them would be a significant risk...especially since it is a break-top model. A proper load for this gun would have two things which the modern .38 S&W cartridge does not have: the proper blackpowder charge, and a bullet of proper diameter. Not only is the modern cartridge of too high of pressure (and the wrong pressure curve, as well), it has a bullet which is about 5/1000th of an inch too small in diameter. The old cartridge had a bullet which was a tad larger, more close to the actual .380" diameter rather than .357" diameter. Also, to unfortunately complicate matters further, the lead used 130 years ago was softer than today's variety.

If you have a pre-1919 firearm, it is necessary to determine if it is blackpowder. If it is, then the old adage goes: a job worth doing is a job worth doing well. It is necessary, for the sake of safety (and for those who want the "real deal"), to obtain the proper size soft lead bullet (might have to make your own), get some blackpowder (you can order it from the internet), and load it one at a time on your Lee Loader or Rock Chucker or whatever using the proper dies for that caliber. Lee has almost every die you could imagine. Lee even has a special blackpowder loading die for the .38 S&W, where you can load the blackpowder from the top after sizing the case.

[MMCSRET]

The Lyman/Ideal data manuals from the turn of the 19th/20th century up into the early 1960's had a section in the back devoted to BP data for the old cartridges, say Lyman #'s 41/42/43. Find one and someone that has the dies to load some for you.

[buttrap]

Touchy subject indeed. Using smokless in older guns is generaly frowned on as there is a lot more involved not to mention finding loading data. With proper loads it can be done though and my feeling is that its less stress on the gun if properly done. You will have a longer pressue curve but max pressures can be kept below that of a BP load while matching and in some cases exceding the BP loads to a degree on MV. But bottom line is still dont try it unless you know what the heck you are doing,have good loading data and a sound gun.

[scrat]

Ok my 2 cents. 1st maybe you should check on the black powder thread. NOW since i shoot and make black powder this is what im going to say.
i have 4 black powder revolvers all .44cal. 2 brass frames, 1 steel frame, 1 WALKER. The brass frames shoot 20 grains of black. Black powder is measured by volume not weight. The steel frame shoots up to 30 grains black. the WALKER was designed to shoot 60 grains black. I have never been able to get more than 55 grains in it though. When shooting 55 grains of black people tend to notice. WOW. Now for my WALKER i also have an R&D cylinder. When i replace the cylinder i can now shoot 45 Long Colt. a round originally designed to shoot bp. When i load BP rounds in 45 long colt. I keep the overall length to the same length a 45 long colt. The approximate load of powder is 34 grains. This makes it a mild shooter compared to shooting 55 grains under a ball. However it makes loading a lot faster. One of the differences in bp compared to smokeless. In smokeless if i load 45 colt. you use 5-12 grains of powder depending on what powder. Thus you have a huge airspace between the powder and the bullet. When loading black powder you compress the powder then seat the bullet to the powder. With no air gap. If you load smaller then you need a filler. Either fiber wad or oatmeal, cream of wheat. something. You just cant have an air gap otherwise you will get more of an explosion rather than a propellent. This i believe is one of the major factors of shooting black powder.

As for the dies i just use regular 45 colt dies. for bullets though i cast my own using pure lead and spg for lube. Black powder needs a good lube and you can not use a petroleum based lube. Most smokeless lubes will not work good with black powder. The powder will gum up with the mixture of the lube.

[Harve Curry]

Gamalot,
A good reference to have on hand is Cartridges of the World. It's a big paper back. Those early small frame S&W and copies of them were thin in the frame and cylinder . If your not a reloader it's a good easy cartridge to start with. You can load it with black or pyrodex.

[equalizer]

You can try Dixiegunworks.com

[Old Fuff]

When loading black powder in modern cartridge cases keep in mind that the old balloon head cases used during the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries were different. Current cases have thicker solid heads, where the older ones were made with thinner folded heads. Because of this they were weaker, but could hold more powder.

Black powder should be slightly compressed by the bullet, which means there must not be any air space between the powder charge and bullet or ball. But when measured by volume a full charge in a modern case won’t be equal to one in an older one. So in .45 Colt for example, don’t try to duplicate the Remington Bridgeport load of 40 grains topped with a 255 grain bullet. It can be done, but you’ll have to seat the bullet out further and be over standard cartridge overall length.

[Big Sarge]

Try Gad Custom. They reload a lot of old BP cartridges to include heel based rounds. I've heard a lot of good things about them.

http://gadcustomcartridges.com/

[scrat]

reload them your own. Just as i stated earlier and OLD FUFF dit as well its not hard at all. You dont need special dies. You can use the same primers, Get some dies, Heck a lee loader works well too. Then size the cases. fill the case with enough powder then some to compress lightly with a bullet. trick is getting the powder right so that you seat the bullet at the right height. You can almost eye ball where it needs to be powder wise. Just put a tad more as you can not have an air gap. Then seat the bullet to the depth. Thats it. Now what i did was once i figured out the correct height of the powder. i poured it out and matched it to a lee dipper. So now i can quickly load them up. You can make a quick dipper by taking an old case then filing it down to where it will hold just the right amount of powder.

[Vicious-Peanut]

Ten-X loads both of those in black powder I believe.

[CaptainCrossman]

quote: Old Cartridge load-Black Powder
Hi guys, I have three old break tops from my Grandfather and have been told the original loads were black powder.
.32 S&W Short & .38 S&W.
Where can I find a box of each loaded with the recommended black powder?
I don't care to shoot these much but would like to toss a few rounds down range for old times sake.
Yes, the guns are in excellent condition and timed and locking up great.
Thanks.
Gary


this is a very old thread but worth reviving, I have recently dissected a few 38SW rounds that were blackpowder factory loads, they had between 10 to 12 grains of 3F blackpowder in them. Just enough to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet. They had 126 grain and 146 grain soft lead bullets in them, and were loaded by Remington-UMC.

what I find odd is, there were many replies but not a single one answering what the OP asked. Lots of replies about how to load cap/ball revolvers, and how smokeless powder burns different than BP, but that has nothing to do with top break 32SW and 38SW chambered pistols.

I own 5 vintage 38SW and 32SW top break pistols, and have some first hand experience with them. I also have a quantity of 32SW and 38SW original factory ammo that is blackpowder loaded and will dissect them next and post the answer.

if you reload for a top break pistol using modern smokeless powder, the old Lyman reloading manual states that you should not exceed their "starting loads" for smokeless powder.
A good rule of thumb is for smokeless pistol powder is, 2 grains maximum powder charge for the 38SW, and 1 grain maximum for the 32SW.

but if you are loading them with blackpowder, you can fill the case with 3F and compress it with the bullet and it should be just fine. The pistols are certainly strong enough to withstand blackpowder compressed loads, being they are very low pressure and velocity.

use CAST LEAD bullets. I would not recommend hard copper jacketed bullets in a top break pistol, as the bullet friction in the barrel is another factor, and can lead to stretched frames and latches.

I have dissected a modern smokeless 38SW load and it had 2.5 grains of powder behind a 146 grain soft lead bullet, I removed 1/2 grain of powder, then re-assembled the round and fired it. I wouldn't exceed 2 grains of powder just to preserve the old guns, and 2 grains of smokeless in a top break 38SW is plenty.

you could "probably" get away shooting modern smokeless factory rounds in a top break, as they were and are "loaded down" for decades now, with the old guns in mind, but just to be safe I'd reduce it to 2 grains/38 and 1 grain/32

the problem is if you get a box of factory ammo that is loaded on the hot side, it stretches the frame down by the lower hinge pin area, just below the cylinder and the gun then won't close without filing the locking lugs on the top back of the latch area, on the frame. I have also heard reports of stretched oval latch screw holes from hot handloads but have not experienced it myself.

that is the risk of overloading a top break. I don't think modern ammo will blow up a cylinder on an old SW pistol, they were of rather high quality and metallurgy- but it may eventually stretch the frame. the other cheaper saturday night special boot guns, that's another story, those may blow up a cylinder with a smokeless factory load, and I have read reports of them doing such to quite a few guys. One guy blew one up tied to a fence post firing it with a string, another guy was holding one firing by hand, next shot there were no open sights to aim with, it blew the top strap off the gun- and it was a full frame 32, but a cheapie from the 1800's.

that means is you buy modern smokeless ammo, you should shoot it in a newer stronger gun, made after the switch was done to smokeless powder, to get the empty cases to reload for an older top break- or you have to laboriously pull all the bullets and reduce the powder charges in the factory smokeless loads, and re-assemble before firing in a top break- or simply buy empty cases to reload- another option is buy old blackpowder rounds and shoot those off, then use the cases to reload for smokeless reduced charges

the way to tell a smokeless case, from a blackpowder case, is the cannelure on the case itself- a smokeless round will have a cannelure (crease) in the case, and it's there to act as bottom support for the heeled bullet when its seated. That's because there is a lot of air space in a smokeless 32SW or 38SW factory cartridge.

an old BP loaded round, will be smooth on the side of the brass- because they were usually packed full of blackpowder and the bullet compressed the powder, and the powder supported the bullet- there was no need for a cannelure. This holds true for cartridges made up to around 1940.

[Old Fuff]

While you're at it, cross-section on of the black powder era cases as well as a later smokeless one. Notice the difference in the way the base is constructed. Modern cases have solid heads, and therefore hold less powder. With smokeless this doesn't matter, but if you are "loading charcoal" you may need to slightly reduce the charge.

When it comes to American top-break pocket pistols, made during the later years of the 19th and early 20th centuries there are (1) Smith & Wesson's, and (2) all the others, and the latter are unquestionably inferior. No, the Old Fuff is not a gun snob, the reason is that the others were made to sell at a price point well below the S&W, and as a consequence the quality of materials used in they're constructions suffered. At the time, steel bars used to make cylinders were made in open-hearth furnaces so bits of carbon would get into the low carbon steel. In addition, many of the bars had seams in them, made during the rolling process. The finished cylinders were not heat treated, nor were the finished revolvers proof fired until much later, and sometimes not then.

Excluding the Smith & Wesson, most if not all of them did not have a positive cylinder latching system (as do modern revolvers) so the chamber is held in alignment with the bore by nothing more then the shooter's trigger finger holding back the trigger while the hand pushes against the cylinder's ratchet.

I fully understand the desire on the part of some to put just a few rounds through great-grandpa's old pocket piece just to say they did it. And of course we have those that believe that "anything I own gets shot, because that's what they were made too do!" But on to many occasions I have had a sad-faced individual show up with an old gun (sometimes a legal antique) with a split cylinder wall or barrel that had been fired once too often.

So before you shoot, think twice.

[CaptainCrossman]

well said Old Fluff, and allow me to make corrections on my previous post which I have just edited

when I weighed the BP charges of original era cartridges, I had the big sliding weight on first notch, then the small thumbwheel weight between "1" and "2"

this is a new scale I'm using first time, and I assumed the big weight notches were 5 grains each, like on my old vintage 1950's powder scale- well I just reweighed the charges and I was WRONG- the big weight notches on the new scale are 10 GRAINS per notch

so here is corrected information:

"G *" headstamped Gevelot 38 S&W ammo has 10.2 grains of 4F blackpowder
"UMC" headstamped 38 S&W ammo has 12 grains of 3F blackpowder
"S&W" headstamped 38 S&W ammo has 11.5 grains of 4F blackpowder

"REM-UMC" headstamped 38 S&W ammo has 2.5 grains of SMOKELESS powder

I checked the granulations against cans of modern 4F and 3F BP I have, and yes it appears they loaded the cartridges with 4F and 3F

and just for giggles I filled a case completely to the rim with BP 3F, then weighed the charge, looks like 15.2 grains of 3F fills a 38 S&W case

[Pete D.]

I have four old F&W and Leige Bulldogs. Three of them are shootable. One is .38 S&W. One is 32 S&W. The third is .380 short/.38 Short Colt.
I cast bullets for the .38 S&W and buy heeled bullets for the .32 and the .380 from GAD Custom Cartridges.
The .32 gets 8 grains of FFFg and the .38s get 11 grains.
I thumb press the bullets into the cases and give them a light crimp.
Great fun to shoot.
Pete

[Jabez Cowboy]

The amount of miss-information in this thread is astounding ....

A one that runs a ballistic testing service , you folks need to read more ....
Actual data ...



Jabez Cowboy

[brickeyee]

"The usual place a Damascus shotgun barrel lets go with nitro is about 8" up the barrel where black powder has pretty much burnt out and pressure is decaying but nitro is still burning and maintaining a higher pressure at that point in time and shot charge travel."


Smokeless shotgun powder has finished decomposition before the shot cup rear clears the case.

Smokeless powder burns MUCH faster than blac, and produces far higher peak pressures.

The barrels let go further out since th epressure is stil lmuch higher there than black would generate.

[Old Fuff]

The amount of miss-information in this thread is astounding ....

Perhaps you should enlignten us... :scrutiny:

[Pete D.]

Perhaps you should enlignten us...

That was what I was thinking also.

The amount of miss-information in this thread is astounding ....

A one that runs a ballistic testing service , you folks need to read more ....
Actual data ...


If you are going to make that criticism....if there is misinformation for which you have the corrections, it would sure be more helpful to supply what is pertinent and proper than to snipe and say, essentially, "you guys got it all wrong".
Help out if you can. If I am really wrong about something, I am open to a fix.

Pete

[FROGO207]

I am reloading with Trail Boss to replace those Black Powder loads and having great success with it in 38 S&W, 32 H&R short and 32H&R long I might add. Hardest part is finding the lead bullets for the 32 short without casting them myself. Just remember to follow the instructions of how to figure out the max load for TB at IMR's website and reduce to start.