JBT's in my neighborhood. Grrr!!!


PDA






Tom Servo
August 23, 2005, 12:45 AM
I live in the (relatively) quiet suburbs of north metro Atlanta. For the most part, the LEOs I've dealt with are great guys with alot of respect for those who own and carry arms. But tonight...arrghh...

I was in a convenience store. Another guy was carrying openly, and an officer walked in, stared for a second, then asked the guy if he was an officer. The guy said no, and the officer told him to turn around. The officer then removed the man's gun and called for backup.

Backup arrived, and they proceeded to ask him why he needed a gun, why he felt he needed to carry, and what he did for a living. When he told them he carried for protection, they rolled their eyes. When he mentioned that he was licensed and had a right to, one of the officers responded, "don't start on a civil rights lecture." At this point, I could taste the bile rising in my mouth.

They decreed that he shouldn't be carrying since he didn't do anything dangerous for a living, then they ran his ID while they held his gun. While it was empty, the officer holding it swept me with the barrel six times in twenty seconds. All I wanted to do was pay for my danish and gas, and I was stuck standing there because they wouldn't move the matter outside.

When the guy's ID came back clean, they gave him a lecture about how "just because you've got a permit doesn't mean we welcome it." When he started to answer, one of the officers threatened to arrest him because he was carrying in a place that serves alcohol (though NOT for on-site consumption), but that he'd "go easy" on the guy "this time." They then told the guy that the permit only allowed concealed, not open, carry. They also claimed that since one of his magazines was marked "law enforcement," that it was illegal (yet they returned it to him).

There are so many things wrong with this. I know alot of the officers in this area, and they're alot better and smarter about this. The only difference between me and the guy at that moment was that the officers couldn't see my gun, but I still got more than a little nervous. I'd rather not get locked up only to have to make bail and get exonerated after having to pay for a lawyer. I'm wondering who I should call on this? Sheriff? Attorney General? Mayor? Any suggestions?

If you enjoyed reading about "JBT's in my neighborhood. Grrr!!!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
nextjoe
August 23, 2005, 12:53 AM
Wait, isn't Kennesaw the town that REQUIRED people to keep a gun in the house?!? You'd expect the cops there to be a bit more respectful of the rights of law-abiding citizens.

I just checked packing.org, which says that permit holders can carry both concealed and OPENLY in Georgia.

Tom Servo
August 23, 2005, 01:01 AM
BTW, it wasn't Kennesaw, but a neighboring town.

zahc
August 23, 2005, 01:05 AM
You didn't say anything? I'm afraid I would have come to the guy's rescue, verbally and tactfully.

Blue Jays
August 23, 2005, 01:06 AM
Hi ErikF-

Yes, the correct person to call in this example would be the Attorney General for your district.

~ Blue Jays ~

PATH
August 23, 2005, 01:16 AM
Sheesh! You just can't make this stuff up! :barf:

mattw
August 23, 2005, 01:29 AM
I don't think i would fault the officers for running his ID while they held onto his gun, you never know what kind of psychos are running around out there. It should've ended at "sorry for the trouble, you just looked a little conspicuous.. can't be too careful."

I'm all for open carry rights and think it should be as socially acceptable as chewing gum, but I do get a little wierded out when I see somone walking down the street that is openly packing heat and I don't see a badge. Until I can be carrying I think i'll always feel a bit uneasy about that stuff.

Sindawe
August 23, 2005, 01:51 AM
Nope, no shades of a Police State here. Move along, move along....I'm all for open carry rights and think it should be as socially acceptable as chewing gum, but I do get a little wierded out when I see somone walking down the street that is openly packing heat and I don't see a badge. Until I can be carrying I think i'll always feel a bit uneasy about that stuff. Why is that? "Its good for me, but not for thee?".

I agree with zahc's position. Though I do have to wonder if I'd have been as tactfull as zahc may have been. I've had about enough of bullies with badges. :fire:

Strings
August 23, 2005, 02:40 AM
and this is why it's a REALLY good idea to have a printout of the relevant statutes handy. "Here it is, in black and white, officer"

Matt G
August 23, 2005, 03:19 AM
You say "officer." You mean municipal police? If so, the correct course of action would be to write a letter to the Chief, with a CC to the city council and the mayor. Consider CC'ing the State Atty Gen, and the Georgia P.O.S.T. office. (Whatever they call it.)

In the letter, you provide broad strokes. Do NOT quote unless you are absolutely CERTAIN that the words were the ones used. Don't state anything implied or simply inferred. State facts. Try to get the name of the individual that they shook down. Try to get him to go in on the letter, for standing. (You technically have no standing in this.) Try to get the names of witnesses. Try to gather the verbage, word for word, of all of the relevant laws, ordinaces, and codes involved. Quote the relevant sections, or at least cite them.

Make very certain that you are on solid ground before sending the letter. It needs to reference the time, date, and location of the incident. You can get the names of the officers involved by filing a Public Records request with the department.

50 Freak
August 23, 2005, 03:37 AM
Stupid me being in Cali, but why did this guy carry openly? A Concealed Carry permit is just what it says CONCEALED Carry. I have a CCW here and I can't imagine walking out in the open with a pistol hanging of the side of my hip. May be legal, but I'm sure you'll make a lot of people nervous. And that's something that is not good. Sounds like the guy was asking for trouble.

Although the LE's may have had a stick up their ass, I think they did the right thing. But no need for a LE to threaten anyone with "busting" their ass and "letting them off". Sounds like bully tactics to me. I'd take it up with their sargent or captain on that issue only. No place for that in Law Enforcment.

TechBrute
August 23, 2005, 03:44 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27948&stc=1
<cartman>You will respect my authoritay!</cartman>

mnrivrat
August 23, 2005, 04:01 AM
Stupid me being in Cali, but why did this guy carry openly? A Concealed Carry permit is just what it says CONCEALED Carry. I have a CCW here and I can't imagine walking out in the open with a pistol hanging of the side of my hip.

Sounds like the guy was asking for trouble.

In CA a carry permit might be limited to concealed only, but that is not the case where I live or in GA where this occured.

Why carry open ? Well ,first of all, because you can - it is perfectly legal , and why is that "asking for trouble" ? Perhaps he was simply not wearing his cover garmet because it was a warm day and he felt he didn't need to put it on to make a run into the store. Realy doesn't make any difference why , because he was within compliance of the law. Does he now also have to be in compliance with some standard of political correctness or the whims of an LEO ??

grimlock
August 23, 2005, 08:30 AM
Erik, where was this?

Molon Labe
August 23, 2005, 09:15 AM
Harassment by thugs in uniform. Simple as that.

PX15
August 23, 2005, 09:18 AM
I know I'm gonna get hammered for this post, but it always amazes me when someone feels the need to "open carry" and then is surprised when they wind up in just such a situation as described in this thread.

I know the 2nd amendment gives us the right to own guns. I know the State of Georgia allows open carry (with restrictions).

I also know that open carry often scares the crap out of a lot of people who observe it. I'm a member of the NRA and I think as gun owners we should try and do everything we can to woo more people to "our way of thinking" rather than the opposite. You can tell me all day long that you are within your 2nd amendment rights to do this or that, but open carry is considered by many as more "in your face" than it is a simple exercise of your rights under the Constitution.

For the life of me I cannot understand the need to open carry in a WalMart, 7/11, or Longhorn Steak house, etc. If you have a concealed weapons permit, then CONCEAL the firearm and go on about your business.

If in fact there happen's to be a "robbery about to happen" the only thing you will accomplish by open carry is being the first one shot.... You would be much better served by concealed carry. I don't want the bad guys knowing anyone other than themselves is armed.. At least you will have the element of surprise should you feel the need to get involved. And hey, if no one is being hurt by the robbers, I say just keep your mouth shut, your firearm hidden, and let em have the money. Money can be replaced, lives can't.



I'm not arguing the person's "right" to open carry, I just question his judgement, or lack thereof, in doing so.

As for the actions of the Police involved, I can understand why they would check the person out, but they obviously were not happy that he was carrying openly, just because he wanted to. I think some LEO's like to think carrying (openly) is "just for them".. I think they were wrong in how they handled the situation, but I can guarantee you that at least in MY part of Georgia you DON'T want to start a pissing contest with LEO's. You can very easily wind up in jail for your trouble, and even if you are in the right, it can still be a very expensive and troublesome problem. We have more than our share of "Barney Fife" types, and they will probably be given the benefit of the doubt by any supervisors, or Judges that eventually get involved. It's NOT right of course, but it is "what it is".

My feeling about LEO's in general is that I wouldn't have their jobs under any conditions. They are underpaid, underappreciated, and face more potential for deadly confrontation daily than most of us do in a lifetime. I think 90% of LEO's are just regular folks trying to do as good a job as they can under the politically correct society we live in. They are 2nd guessed and criticized and rarely appreciated, until you need them.. (Same logic as some use with the military.) The remaining 10% of LEO's are just regular buttholes like you find in ANY occupation, with the exception that they can (and will) have the authority to make your life miserable should they desire to do so. It is what it is.

Open carry IN MY OPINION is generally a bad idea. If you feel the need to be armed, then carry concealed. It's not about rights, it's about tact, and being smart as opposed to stupid. Or at least being perceived as stupid.

I DON'T like seeing someone carrying openly, and I'm a gun nut.. I can certainly see how open carry would alarm some.

And, just because you might be dressed well, and looking like the wonderful middle class American you obviously are, other's who carry openly might not have the same appearance. You are judged by appearance, whether you like it or not, and if you LOOK like you shouldn't be carrying a firearm you probably shouldn't be doing so.

Open carry will only get you criticism. It's not about legality, it's about being reasonably smart and avoiding confrontations such as started this discussion in the first place.

JMOFO :banghead:

bogie
August 23, 2005, 09:24 AM
Heh... In Kennesaw, there's an ol' boy who carries openly All The Time.

I'd personally have called the officer on the safety stuff.

Then I'd have phoned the station, with cell phone, while standing there.

Molon Labe
August 23, 2005, 09:30 AM
open carry often scares the crap out of a lot of people who observe it.May be legal, but I'm sure you'll make a lot of people nervous.Perhaps. But so what? That's the problem of the person who is scared or nervous, not the person who is carrying the gun...

WayneConrad
August 23, 2005, 09:30 AM
Yeah, open carry shows bad judgement. Just go to the back of the bus like you're asked to. If you insist on sitting in front like a first-class citizen, you deserve all the trouble you'll get.

Sheesh.

TallPine
August 23, 2005, 09:33 AM
Geez ... did I drop into some DU lefty bedwetter site by mistake ??? :barf:

I do get a little wierded out when I see somone walking down the street that is openly packing heat and I don't see a badge.

et al .....................................

Molon Labe
August 23, 2005, 09:34 AM
I'd personally have called the officer on the safety stuff.Me too. In fact, I would have challenged just about everything he said. If nothing else than to remind him that I have rights.

I feel like going out today and open-carrying just to see if I get harassed by a JBT...

Molon Labe
August 23, 2005, 09:38 AM
And to those who say, "Open carry is foolish, blaa blaa blaa" I respond as follows:

1. That's your opinion. My opinion may be different.
2. Harassment by JBTs is wrong.
3. Even if it's true that it's foolish to open carry, it doesn't matter. I have a right to open carry, and that's that.

Crosshair
August 23, 2005, 09:40 AM
PX15

I have to disagree with you. So what if the Sheeple get scared if you have open carry? The cops are in the WRONG here. I wear my hear long and have narrow eyes, I look like a stoned hippie. (I like the hippie look) What if some day the cops pull me over and slam my head against the hood of my car because they think I MUST be a drug dealer, detain me, run my ID, search my car. Because only people with long "hippie hair" and narrow eyes are drug dealers. Just like someone who is carrying openly MUST be either a gang banger or looking for trouble. Should I cut my hair and tape my eyes open wide just to look like everyone else just so I don't scare the sheeple and so the cops don't WRONGLY detain me. I don't think so.

Lennyjoe
August 23, 2005, 09:58 AM
Matt G has the proper course of action down pat.

jondar
August 23, 2005, 10:12 AM
"If, in fact, there is a "robbery about to happen", the only thing you will accomplish by open carry is being the first one shot."


Sounds logical to me.

Hawkmoon
August 23, 2005, 10:23 AM
I don't think i would fault the officers for running his ID while they held onto his gun, you never know what kind of psychos are running around out there. It should've ended at "sorry for the trouble, you just looked a little conspicuous.. can't be too careful."

I'm all for open carry rights and think it should be as socially acceptable as chewing gum, but I do get a little wierded out when I see somone walking down the street that is openly packing heat and I don't see a badge. Until I can be carrying I think i'll always feel a bit uneasy about that stuff.
I would certainly fault the officers for running his ID. If open carry is legal, they had ZERO right to stop him since he was not doing anything illegal. So what if there are psychos out there? Psychos drive cars, too -- does that make it legal to stop every car and ask the driver if he's a psycho? Psychos sometimes poison people. Can an LEO take you aside the enxt time you buy rat poison at the hardware store and grill you for half an hour about who you plan to kill with it, on the grounds that psychos sometimes use rat poison?

I don't think so.

And since when does selling beer in cans or bottles constitute "serving" alcohol? "Serving" is dispensing into an open cut or glass and handing it to to the customer (or placing it on the bar or table in front of them) for on-site consumption. "Selling" is not "serving."

I would not be overly careful about who to complain to. Send the same letter to everybody you can think of.

Old Fuff
August 23, 2005, 10:57 AM
While there may or may not be an issue about the individual open carrying a gun, the officers should have backed off when they determined that he did have a license, and as such could carry either openly or concealed under Ga. statutes.

Law enforcement officers are empowered to enforce laws, not their opinions. While the individual with the gun might have shown bad judgement, the officers were obligated to know the law, and what it did or didn't require. They are also required to respect a valid license issued by the state. If they don't do so and get away with it the licence becomes worthless.

If I was the person with the gun I would be looking for a lawyer, and I would be the one who pushed it. The responsibility doesn't lie with a witness.

gezzer
August 23, 2005, 11:09 AM
They also claimed that since one of his magazines was marked "law enforcement," that it was illegal (yet they returned it to him).

Typical untrained, ignorant of the law they are trying to enforce, pushing political BS, what else to call them besides JBT's.

They should be reported to the Dept they work for. Obviously the training they are being given is faulty or non -exsistant. :banghead:

Norm357
August 23, 2005, 11:27 AM
He should have asked for a Supervisor. Then worked his way up from there.

Byron Quick
August 23, 2005, 11:32 AM
The cops here, if they acted as reported, were NOT following Georgia law. Once he presented a weapons permit, that should have been the end of it.

Open carry is legal in Georgia with a carry permit. Open carry is legal in Georgia with a hunting or fishing license while going to, engaging in, and returning from, the licensed activity. Carry, whether open or concealed, is legal in a business that sells alcohol for consumption off of the premises with a carry permit or under the cited circumstances with a hunting or fishing license.

Of course, the law enforcement only provision is moot with the sunset of AWB.

Whether open carry is a wise decision is not covered under Georgia law. Therefore, the wisdom of open carry is not within the purview of Georgia law enforcement officers. Duh.

But, hey, what's new? Years ago, a Medical College of Georgia policeman and I were discussing the age of consent in Georgia. He claimed one age and I claimed another. I took his book of statutes, that he had been studying, out of his hands and turned to the pertinent section. Not only was I right and he wrong...but the statute's date was 1908. I've been in court when a young man was brought before a judge on a statutory rape charge. The first question the judge asked was the birthdate of the female in question. The second question was when the offense occurred. The third question was directed to the arresting officer and was an inquiry as to the age of consent in Georgia. The judge then told the arresting officer that he was in error and to never bring another case before him that displayed a total ignorance of the law. I've often wondered how that got through the various checks. The only thing I can figure is that the cop's superiors and the DA's office wanted him to wind up with egg on his face.

neoncowboy
August 23, 2005, 11:52 AM
Erik,
I am in NE Georgia and am interested in this.

The suggestion to write a factual report to the chief and AG was great, I hope you will. While you're at it, you might also CC: the media, especially outlets that might pick up the story (Fox 5, AM 750, Neil Boortz?)

Please keep me appraised of how this develops, those cops need an attitude adjustment.

OF
August 23, 2005, 12:47 PM
The bottom line is that open carry is legal, therefore this uy was harrased, period.

These situations become net positives if the officers involved are called on it. Then the local PD's understanding of the law increases and people's rights become better protected.

If they just go off and never learn that they've done anything wrong, everyone loses.

Flyboy
August 23, 2005, 12:53 PM
I've read the story a few times, and I still can't find the part where you called the chief on your own behalf and reported having officers repeatedly pointing a gun at you while you were innocently standing in a convenience store. Must be missing it.

rick_reno
August 23, 2005, 01:11 PM
Is it possible the police were called to the store by the shopkeeper - who observed someone in his shop openly carrying a handgun?
The police didn't do anything wrong, they did their job in checking out the person openly carrying. It's legal to openly carry where I live and I've been told by local LEO that while it's legal, you'll attact a lot of attention if you do it.

44Brent
August 23, 2005, 01:18 PM
Stupid me being in Cali, but why did this guy carry openly? A Concealed Carry permit is just what it says CONCEALED Carry. I have a CCW here and I can't imagine walking out in the open with a pistol hanging of the side of my hip.

George does not issue "concealed" carry licenses. It issues licenses to carry either openly or concealed. http://www.opencarry.org/ga.html

ALHunter
August 23, 2005, 02:03 PM
I lived in Kennesaw for 2 years, never had a problem like this when I open carried, though I can't say I did it a lot. I prefer concealed, but alos respect the right to open carry. I agree, send letter to local Chief, cc the Atty. General. Also agree you need as many actual facts as possible in whatever letter you send. Anything less and your letter will fall on deaf ears or do more harm than good.

When I lived in Fulton Co. about 10 years ago I was pumping gas at the BP station on Roswell Rd. just about 1 mile south of the Chatahoochee River. Had just come from the range and was open carrying a S&W 686 w/ 6" barrel. Gas station attendant, unbeknown to me, called PD as she was "afraid" when she saw my gun. Fulton Co. Deputy pulled up, while I was still pumping. Got out, approached me:

Him: said with a smile, "You got a permit for that hog leg?"
Me: "yes, sir. Would you like to see it?"
Him: "No, that's alright, the attendant got scared when she saw your cannon."
Me: "Would you like to see my driver's license?"
Him: "No, that's ok. Some people just get a little jumpy when they see people carrying guns, especially clerks like her that may be more prone to getting robbed."
Me: "I assure you if I saw her being threatened or harmed in any way I would intervene on her behalf."
Him: "I'm sure you would, she probably doesn't realize there's good people out there with guns."

In retropsect I wish I would have gotten his name and badge number and sent a complementary letter to his CO. He was very nice and professional.

Good luck.

mattw
August 23, 2005, 02:51 PM
Open carry does attract alot of attention, alot of the kind you don't want. You have to know this, you can't just strap on your horse pistol and take a stroll in the park without getting some looks. I don't see anything wrong with taking 2 minutes to run the guy's ID, if it comes back clean then ok and if it comes back with some warrants or something then they caught another one. I really would like for everyone be able to carry openly and for people to not think twice about it but that just isn't how it is in some places.

Yes psychos do drive cars and often times they will drive wrecklessly or speed or not use a turning signal or something and cops stop people for that. Don't cops also run your tag if they feel like it wether you did anything or not? Isn't that the same as running your ID?

Derek Zeanah
August 23, 2005, 02:54 PM
My understanding is that you average thug doesn't carry openly, and when carrying concealed tends to not even use a holster.

Couldn't you take a look at the guy, notice the $50+ holster and PITA-wide gunbelt, maybe verify his permit, and understand that odds are he's one of us? I think the cops went overboard, and demonstrated what many here refer to as a "big city cop mentality."

I'm not that surprised.

50 Freak
August 23, 2005, 03:21 PM
Comes down to this.

Open carry in some states...Legal...yes...

Smart....argueable point.

Would you open carry your sidearm into a toy store in a major metro area. You'd be in your legal rights to do so. Whether they call every swat officer in the 5 surrounding cities to "take out" this terrorist in a toy store is another matter.

Think about it. You are setting an example for the rest of us.

pax
August 23, 2005, 03:28 PM
What I hear some people saying is that it is perfectly okay for the police to literally harrass someone who is not breaking the law.

Here I thought a LEO's job was simply to enforce the law, as written.

pax

... a government of law and not of men. What a quaint and fanciful notion! -- me

Carlos
August 23, 2005, 03:34 PM
Please, post the name of the Department and what town in Georgia.

CAPTAIN MIKE
August 23, 2005, 03:35 PM
Okay, so instead of just being mad, you can take a simple action to help FIX the problem -- which is that the officers were uneducated about the true state of the law.

First - go to Packing.org and download the Georgia info on Open Carry and where you can and cannot carry.

Second - write a letter to the Chief of Police (copy ot the State Attorney General) stating why the officers were wrong to do what they did; and

Third - ask the Chief to conduct internal training so that his officers won't harass law-abiding citizens who are following Georgia State Law.

Because the members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League took the time & trouble to educate the chiefs of police and organized Open Carry rallies, they successfully CHANGED the way police and store owners deal with Open Carry.

spacemanspiff
August 23, 2005, 03:39 PM
"If, in fact, there is a "robbery about to happen", the only thing you will accomplish by open carry is being the first one shot."
prove that statement with past examples. as far as i'm concerned thats just empty rhetoric. you are counting on a criminal being smart enough to look at you long enough to realize you are open carrying. the vast majorityof people wouldnt notice a gun if it was ductaped to your forehead.

Father Knows Best
August 23, 2005, 04:11 PM
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE identify the law enforcement organization that these officers were with. you've already said it wasn't in Kennesaw, so it can't be the Kennesaw muni police. My brother is an officer with the Cobb County Police and lives in Kennesaw. His beat includes most of the towns near Kennesaw, so he may well know these particular boneheads. We may have an opportunity here to get a sympathetic ear in the department.

If for some reason you don't want to state it publicly, PM or email me and I'll keep it in confidence.

jwmoore
August 23, 2005, 04:13 PM
I also know that open carry often scares the crap out of a lot of people who observe it. I'm a member of the NRA and I think as gun owners we should try and do everything we can to woo more people to "our way of thinking" rather than the opposite. You can tell me all day long that you are within your 2nd amendment rights to do this or that, but open carry is considered by many as more "in your face" than it is a simple exercise of your rights under the Constitution.By carrying openly, perhaps we're wooing people to our way of thinking by demonstrating that a responsible, law-abiding adult can carry a sidearm without being overcome by the desire to commit violent crimes.

You make no difference to the "fence sitters" if you hide the fact. Carrying is NOT something of which to be ashamed.

~W

axmurderer
August 23, 2005, 04:30 PM
I think that once the police saw the permit, they should have left it alone.

This kind of thing is what furthers the distrust / disrespect of the police among common citizens.

Rickstir
August 23, 2005, 04:34 PM
Man I guess its where you are at. I open carry in my small rural gun-loving county, in town shopping at various stores, all the time. Now when I go to STL they have an ordinance against it. So I only carry concealed there.

Father Knows Best
August 23, 2005, 04:57 PM
When I was a kid in the 70s, I used to go visit my grandpa in Arizona. I remember seeing guys open carrying back then. I grew up in Michigan, and wasn't used to that, even though my dad had a (then very rare) concealed carry permit. Grandpa didn't seem to think it was any big deal, though. He explained that anyone could carry as long as they didn't try to conceal it.

Now I live in Tennessee and have a "Handgun Carry Permit", or "HCP." It allows me to carry a handgun. There is no requirement that it be concealed. Sure, I attract a little attention if I carry openly, but I see nothing wrong with that. Frankly, I think it's in everyone's best interest if the sheeple start getting used to seeing armed citizens, and it also probably helps deter crime.

Sindawe
August 23, 2005, 05:07 PM
By carrying openly, perhaps we're wooing people to our way of thinking by demonstrating that a responsible, law-abiding adult can carry a sidearm without being overcome by the desire to commit violent crimes. I don't think thats the case, as the response by some people to seeing open carry shows. Below is a portion of an IM conversation I had with a friend last Feb regarding open carry and the friend's views on it. This person is not an anti, the friend and spouse both own guns.

Friend: i must say though, even if your Idyllic world is walking around strapped, c'mon, that would be such a stressful way to live man....that's not what life should be...
sindawe: ????
sindawe: You mean living under the treat of a terrorist attack?
Friend: sigh...look I know there are stressors in today's world, but i'm just saying I would think it would suck even more if it were necessary to walk around armed...not by choice, but by necessity...that means things have really deteriorated.
Friend: and i do not aspire for a world like that.
Friend: and I don't believe you do either.
sindawe: Ahhhh....gotcha. Yea, that point is valid.
sindawe: But its fact of life in Isreal, sad to say. But I would rather live in a world where the sight of "normal" people having weapons on 'em by choice did not cause other folks to get their undies all in a knot.
Friend: also, I believe if our rights were liberal enough that toting FALs and the like were commonplace in society, that THAT would actually fuel deterioration in society such that people would become constantly concerned for their safety because everybody is toting machine guns...alot like why so many people keep buying SUVs, because at some point, it became a concern of their's should they be in an accident or desire visibility again...in order to feel secure, they went out and bought a SUV ..
Friend: i disagree with your last comment...I do not want to live in a society where 'normality' is carrying a weapon
Friend: i don't know why you dream of such a life.
Friend: the days of the old west were violent man...why would you want to live that way?
Friend: you can't tell me it's better than chilling at home with your cats watching Claudia Black...
Friend: or admiring your fish tank or whatever pleasures you seek...living in a society where guns that are visible is normal MEANS, and this is true, MEANS that society has in fact deteriorated to the point where gun toting BECAME a normality...and thus accepted as a means of defense in a ????ty environment...there's no way in hell that gun toting in public view is gonna be viewed as normal with the exception of law enforcement personnel...it's just not gonna happen because it doesn't make sense man...it just doesn't...the causitive event has to first occur to make life ????ty enough to always be carrying a gun in public view....

MudPuppy
August 23, 2005, 05:14 PM
Open carry may get odd looks, but that's because we don't exercise our rights frequently.

If anything, responsible gun-owners that can should make the effort to carry whenever appropriate. Otherwise, we'll become that "fringe" group. When a citizen is legal to open carry, it SHOULD be no big thing.

Please don't let this go unchallenged--if you do, it'll happen again. And from what you said, they didn't seem think he needed to protect himself anyway (concealed or otherwise, from the description of the eye-rolling at the victim's response).

iiibdsiil
August 23, 2005, 05:39 PM
So, if I don't feel like jamming a gun down my pants in an IWB holster, or I feel like carrying a bigger gun, that is more accurate for me, and would be better to use in the event I actually needed to, then open carry sounds like a good option. Soccer mom is having a heart attack because of it? Cry me a river.

And what if you standing in line at 7-11 open carrying stops a robbery because the guy only wants the money, not a murder rap? Oh, that's right, every robber wants to kill. :rolleyes:

Standing Wolf
August 23, 2005, 06:02 PM
...I still can't find the part where you called the chief on your own behalf and reported having officers repeatedly pointing a gun at you while you were innocently standing in a convenience store.

I concur.

If I were the sheriff or chief in that jurisdiction, those "cops" would be on rubber gun patrol a good long while.

gaston_45
August 23, 2005, 06:05 PM
"You can tell me all day long that you are within your 2nd amendment rights to do this or that, but open carry is considered by many as more "in your face" than it is a simple exercise of your rights under the Constitution."

Uhhh... the second amendment says "A well regulated millitia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed". Carrying openly is also known as bearing arms. How is bearing arms NOT "a simple exercise of your rights under the constitution"???? Notice it clearly does not say the right to carry concealed or the right to bear arms as long as no one runs screaming in terror from you or maybe the right to bear arms unless you are in a toy store. It simply says bear arms.

I think the NRA types trying to "sway" the bliss ninnies by always discouraging open carry have been more instrumental than any of the antigun groups in fostering the current atmosphere in this country that allows officers to get away with harassing law abiding citizens. Afterall, who is going to say anything? Even the "gun nuts" tell people not to open carry, way to go open carrry appologists!

LiquidTension
August 23, 2005, 06:32 PM
If I were to see someone open carrying around here, I'd be suspicious - because in SC it's illegal. Any place that it's legal, more power to you. If the person isn't doing anything wrong, why would I get upset over the fact that he/she has a gun openly displayed? I see people with pocket knives clipped to their pockets ALL THE TIME on campus and I don't bat an eyelash even though it's illegal there (over a certain size). Thing is, nobody else gets hysterical about pocket knives either. It's only guns that get so much attention, because so many people have been so mislead about them. I've walked across campus with a katana before - I got several odd/interested looks, but nobody called the cops because no other weapon carries the stigma of a firearm.

Now I work for the police department, and I still don't do anything about people carrying knives. I guess it's just the media and the liberal brainwashing that people are constantly subjected to that causes such reactions. Even if a person has been robbed at gunpoint before, there is no logical reason for them to be scared of firearms. When you get into a wreck, does the sight of a Suburban like the one that plowed into you instantly strike fear into you? Of course not. Well, not if you're reasonably intelligent. But then, that seems to be the problem with blissninnies, doesn't it?

The cops in this particular case reacted improperly and should at the very least receive a good dressing down by their commanding officer(s).

Tom Servo
August 23, 2005, 07:18 PM
Update: This was in Woodstock, municipal police. I spoke with one of the officers I know today, and he checked, and there was no report filed, so the guy wasn't arrested. It's also unlikely that the proprietor placed a call. That was all he could tell me. He was a bit shocked about what he heard and said he'd look into it for me.

For the record, Georgia has no "CCW," simply a "Firearms License," which allows open or concealed carry. Places that "serve" alcohol for on-site consumption are off-limits (though there's legislation in the works), but places that sell it on the retail level are OK. As far as high-cap magazines, there's never been a ban in Georgia.

cordex
August 23, 2005, 08:07 PM
Police are rarely experts on the law. Why should they be? It's not like they're enforcing it or anything.

A little while ago I was pulled over for speeding in a small town here in Indiana where the speed drops quickly coming into the town and I wasn't paying enough attention. The first officer asked if I were armed and I answered in the affirmative. He told me to take out my guns (yes, he asked me to reach for them) and put them on the floor on the passenger side.
"Do you have anything else that might hurt me?"
No ... just a pocket knife.
"Okay, would you step out of the car and sit on the bumper, please?"
Sure, officer.
The responding cop took my license, registration and little pink piece of paper back to his car and got on the radio. Two more police officers drove up and explained they were there for officer safety.
Sure, I understand.
One of the new officers was an older guy who was polite and relaxed. The other was a jumpy little guy who talked too fast. Both of them went straight to my passenger window and started lighting up my pistols - a Colt 1911 and a Kel-tec P3AT - with their flashlights. The jumpy little guy came back and said, "Hey, you know your gun is cocked back?" and accompanied this with descriptive hand gestures.
Yes, officer.
"Why is it cocked?"
That's a 1911, that's the way it ...
"I'm familiar with the design. You cock it by pulling back the slide to load it. So it is cocked with a round in the chamber." More helpful waving of the hands.
Right ...
"Why are you carrying it like that?"
That's the way I always carry it.
"And are you familiar with Indiana state law regarding carrying handguns?"
Yes.
"And in your opinion are you in compliance with that law?"
Yes.
Jumpy went to talk to the original responding officer and the older fellow asked me where I'd gotten the guns. I named a local gun store. As I watch, Jumpy finishes his conversation with the responding officer and stomps back to his cruiser. I can see him turn on the dome light and start leafing through something. I suppose he was checking up on the law to see who was right. The older officer went to talk to the original cop who finally brought me the ticket for speeding and sent me on my way.

It could be that one of the officers there knew the law and filled Jumpy in after I left, but no one made a move to let him know that I was legally okay while Jumpy was implying I was somehow in violation of the law by carrying a 1911 properly.

No big deal really, but it didn't give me a great impression of the training in legal matters that officers get. In my opinion, if someone wants to be a LEO, the O better know the L he's E'ing.

MudPuppy
August 23, 2005, 08:43 PM
Thanks for the update--and more importantly, thanks for making the call.

Malamute
August 23, 2005, 08:51 PM
spacemanspiff wrote



"Quote:
"If, in fact, there is a "robbery about to happen", the only thing you will accomplish by open carry is being the first one shot."

prove that statement with past examples. as far as i'm concerned thats just empty rhetoric. you are counting on a criminal being smart enough to look at you long enough to realize you are open carrying. the vast majorityof people wouldnt notice a gun if it was ductaped to your forehead."





I also would like to see some evidence of the basis for this opinion. I have seen it expressed before when this topic came up, and nobody has EVER shown any reason, beyond opinion, to hold this view. I am of the camp that feels a crook does not want to encounter an armed person, and someone being openly armed, they know right off the bat that it is not going to be as simple as they first anticipated, IF as spiff mentioned, they they even notice someone being armed. People that draw a weapon after being confronted by a robber or potential rapist etc, generally are left alone when the bad guy realizes they are armed, further supporting the concept that an openly armed person is NOT the most likely to be shot first.

The right to KEEP and BEAR arms is exactly that, OWN and CARRY. Thinking about it, requiring a permit to engage in a constitionally protected right doesnt sound right. Just my OPINION.



I felt the way TallPine did when I first started reading some of the comments in this thread.
__________________

grimjaw
August 23, 2005, 09:08 PM
If the gun was a rifle, and in his truck window, would the police have gotten their warning signals tripped? I don't know what the law is on that subject in GA. I know growing up in Arkansas it was common to see trucks with rifles in the back window, and not at all a cause for concern.

If he he exercised another infrequently used right, would they have become upset? If anyone can think of one that would be good to use as an example in this situation, it would be welcome. I have a right to vote, even though I don't often enough. I wonder how much longer it will be before someone decides "just because you've got a permit (to vote) doesn't mean we welcome it."

I will admit that seeing someone walk into a convenience store with a gun on their hip might make me initially uneasy. I might even feel better if the cops were there and determined that the person wasn't, in fact, a threat. But misleading a person about his rights under the law ("They then told the guy that the permit only allowed concealed, not open, carry") is wrong and the police officers in question should be admonished, at the least.

If they want to enforce the law, keep the peace, and reassure the citizens of their jurisdiction, great. Sounds like good cop stuff. IMO, a different approach could have been used.

jmm

Byron Quick
August 23, 2005, 09:25 PM
Traditionally, open carry has been legal in Georgia without a permit or document or verbal permission from any official. That changed when we got concealed carry. Our legislators, in their wisdom, came up with a new crime for Georgia: carrying a pistol without a license.

Scenario: Store owner calls cops about open carry. Cops peruse guy's carry permit, thank him for his cooperation, and leave. Anything beyond that is not enforcing Georgia law. It's basically giving a law abiding citizen a hard time simply because they think they can without consequence.

I haven't open carried for many years. I did often before the law changed back in the seventies. Never had a problem. The only people who ever mentioned it seemed to think that I was a cop...long hair, beard, sandals, and all.

dpesec
August 23, 2005, 09:45 PM
This is really a double edged sword. Most, if not all, of us would like open carry to be a bit more accepted. The problem is we don't want to do it because people freak when they see a weapon. This means we hide the weapons. Which means the person who open carries is stil lthe odd-man out.

Now, that said, I don't open carry either. Perhaps this doctor should take some of my own advice.

stevelyn
August 23, 2005, 10:23 PM
Just because it's legal, dosen't mean we welcome it.

LEOs are paid to enforce the law, not their opinions.

I think a couple of "officers" need to get slapped back on the FTO program for a bit of remedial training on applicable laws, reveiw their oaths as to what they really mean, and how to be a little more tactful in dealing with the public. Then do about 90 days on parking meter/rubber gun detail to make the message sink in.

This sounds similar the open carry/police contact controversy that a member (former?) had in NH some months back. Another case of the police enforcing their opinions because some blissninny got her panties in a bunch when she saw him minding his own business and carrying a handgun.

I'm not going to buy into the "officer safety" arguement here either. From the information given, there was nothing about the guy's actions that would lead a reasonable person to believe he was commiting or going to commit a crime. Too many times I've heard "officer safety" given as justification for heavy handed tactics. BS, if you're afraid of everyone you come in contact with, you need to find another job. An officer who constantly afraid is dangerous to the public and other officers.
Cautious, yes. Observant, yes. Having a plan to deal with a sudden violent confrontation is prudent, and the confidence you can handle it is absolutely necessary. Over reacting when it's not necessary causes nothing but problems and can escalate a situation into a legal and administrative nightmare.
I've had the misfortune of having had to work with this type before. Quite honestly......I'd rather be by myself.

The citizen victim (yes he is a victim of the govt under the color of law) and witness in this case need to raise Holy Hayel starting with the first line supervisor and working their way up to the AG's office for this official misconduct.

CARRY'IN
August 23, 2005, 10:51 PM
Have to go with the "open carry is a bad idea" crowd. But I have kind of a weird take on law enforcement in general. I dont think there should be any uniform police officers anywhere- they should all be plainclothes and the cars all unmarked. When they excercise authority the badge comes out and a ball cap goes on. I would feel alot better without cops everywhere I look. It would probably calm the cops down alot also. I know, I know, it will never happen.

GunGoBoom
August 23, 2005, 11:00 PM
1. Where exactly did this happen? and

2. Can a non-resident with an OK CCW (which is a no open carry state), open carry there in GA?

Cuz I'm about to drive down there and start some trouble with those arrogant SOB JBTs. Hawkmoon is exactly correct.

It's outrageous. He has that right, and he should not have been stopped or bothered in any way, except perhaps to show the license.

Malamute
August 23, 2005, 11:22 PM
"I'm not going to buy into the "officer safety" arguement here either. From the information given, there was nothing about the guy's actions that would lead a reasonable person to believe he was commiting or going to commit a crime. Too many times I've heard "officer safety" given as justification for heavy handed tactics. BS, if you're afraid of everyone you come in contact with, you need to find another job. An officer who constantly afraid is dangerous to the public and other officers.
Cautious, yes. Observant, yes. Having a plan to deal with a sudden violent confrontation is prudent, and the confidence you can handle it is absolutely necessary. Over reacting when it's not necessary causes nothing but problems and can escalate a situation into a legal and administrative nightmare."


I agree with Stevelyn on this. I've been stopped (speeding) when having guns, either on the seat, or on me. The cops asked to hold on to the gun while we were talking, then gave it back, still loaded, when we were done, (one gave me the gun back, then stood and talked for 15 minutes). All were relaxed, but aware, and my impression was that they were on top of what was happening, and confidant (without being cocky), but treated me like I was a normal sort of guy. I reciprocated the courtusy by keeping my left hand on the doorframe, and right on the wheel casually. Had one situation in Flagstaff, aparently someone called in that myself and another guy had guns on in a laundrymat, and about 3 cars showed up to check us out. No law against having a gun in a laundrymat, nor was anything going on other than doing laundry. Knew the attendant, and they didnt call, was a customer. I was surprised that the response was what it was. I believe that most of the cops that showed up that day were new guys by the look and attitude of them. Guys that act like they are nervous spread the feeling to those they are dealing with. Does nobody any good. I respect those that seem polite, cool and confidant, I have a hard time respecting those that treat an average person carrying like a criminal first, until "proven" innocent.

ezypikns
August 23, 2005, 11:50 PM
ditto. Also I don't want everyone to know I'm armed.

Standing Wolf
August 24, 2005, 12:02 AM
Most, if not all, of us would like open carry to be a bit more accepted. The problem is we don't want to do it because people freak when they see a weapon. This means we hide the weapons. Which means the person who open carries is stil lthe odd-man out.

So carry openly. I do. To date, other than my fellow bullseye shooters at the range, only one person has said a single word, and she was just curious.

Byron Quick
August 24, 2005, 01:37 AM
Also, I don't want everyone to know I'm armed.

You'd be surprised at just how few people in a store or on the street would even notice a 1911 in an good IWB carried at 4 o'clock. I've watched people who were carrying openly in crowds. Less than 5 percent of the people even looked twice. No one pointed. Or screamed. Or fainted.

I carried a Charter Arms Undercover revolver in the right hip pocket of my blue jeans for about five years. Of course, after a while all of my blue jeans had the outline of a revolver in white on my right hip pocket. I carried into places where it was strictly verboten (I've wised up) such as police stations. Granted, I was known at the police stations. To judge by folk's reactions, no one ever noticed the white revolver shape worn on all my blue jeans.

Even with open carry, no more than 5% of the people around you are going to know you're armed. I know it's demoralizing but people are just not looking at your waist. :neener:

CARRY'IN
August 24, 2005, 01:44 AM
I dont understand why anyone would want to walk around displaying a gun on their hip. I just dont get it. For one thing you are giving someone the drop on you right off the bat. For another, it looks freakishly out of place in the 21st century. I am all for concealed, but this open carry thing sounds like a little too much testerone to me.

iiibdsiil
August 24, 2005, 02:00 AM
How many people carry they cell phone and keys on their waste band? A lot. The problem with society today is guns are so taboo (sp?). I want a society where guns are looked at in the same way cell phones are, no one even notices. The only reason it is out of place is because so many people think guns shoot themselves, that the gun is responsible for all shootings, and that people with guns want to kill people, and are gonna kill people. I love how people can paint a picture, without even looking at the subject.

I have never open carried, but I gotta imagine it is a heck of a lot more comfortable than IWB or any other type.

mnrivrat
August 24, 2005, 02:25 AM
For another, it looks freakishly out of place in the 21st century. I am all for concealed, but this open carry thing sounds like a little too much testerone to me.

I hear ya ! I feel the same way about gays for example - It doesn't bother me that they exist, I just think they should stay in the closet .

Then there is the churches - I have no problem with religion , but having religious holidays is realy flaunting it in my face . And whats all those crosses being displayed out in public for ? A little too much religous holy stuff for me.

Strings
August 24, 2005, 02:27 AM
^^^good post^^^

Hoploholic
August 24, 2005, 06:38 AM
This is exactly why you should carry open every once in a while where it is legal. If enough people that are not of us see responsible gun owners openly carrying and acting like the fine ladies and gentlemen that we are, many of their unrational fears will be put at ease. Also, the more in your face we get about the expression of our rights the better. The only way to make your point is if those not in the group see it.

Comes down to this.

Open carry in some states...Legal...yes...

Smart....argueable point.

Would you open carry your sidearm into a toy store in a major metro area. You'd be in your legal rights to do so. Whether they call every swat officer in the 5 surrounding cities to "take out" this terrorist in a toy store is another matter.

Think about it. You are setting an example for the rest of us.

shooting time
August 24, 2005, 09:21 AM
I live in Acworth Ga and have listened to the Communist Cobb County police make up their own laws on the spot.One instance was when i lived in Cobb County and had to casll the police because there was a prowler outside my house .I called 911 and grabbed my MP5 had the wife back me up and went outside to check things out.Finally the cops show up tell me I cant be outside my house with a gun take it from me and try to take the magazine out of it(had to tell him how to do it) asks me what kind of gun it is hands the mag to my wife tells her to bring it inside.gives me the MP5 back tells me some other BS makes a report and leaves.I never told him it was full auto just a H&K because there was no telling what he would have tryed to do after that.Seems that the old timers are ok but the new breed of cops are full of themselves think they know everything and what they say is law.

GunGoBoom
August 24, 2005, 09:54 AM
Well put, MN river rat!

Father Knows Best
August 24, 2005, 10:04 AM
MN River Rat for President!

jondar
August 24, 2005, 10:42 AM
"Quote: People that DRAW a weapon after being confronted by a robber or rapist etc., are generally LEFT ALONE when the BG realizes they are armed. The openly armed person is not the one to be shot first."


All I got to say is that if you walk in on an armed robbery in progress, and you attempt to unholster your weapon in full view of the robber, and think you're not going to be shot, you are very badly mistaken. And that is just MY opinion.

iiibdsiil
August 24, 2005, 11:13 AM
That might be true, but if you are already in the store, and buddy walks in with his "glock 9" under his shirt and sees you standing there, open carrying, he is probably going to at least wait for you to leave. Like I said, I don't believe that all these people that commit armed robbery are really looking to get into a shootout. I would think they would take the easier path, which would be to wait a couple seconds.

Malamute
August 24, 2005, 11:16 AM
"All I got to say is that if you walk in on an armed robbery in progress, and you attempt to unholster your weapon in full view of the robber, and think you're not going to be shot, you are very badly mistaken. And that is just MY opinion."


Thanks for sharing your opinion.


It does however assume much. Such as, the bad guy noticing the gun, HIS ability to react AND shoot straight if he chooses to shoot, and MY (you were impuning MY situation in your comment, not even the common, hypothetical "average" person) abilty to react and shoot straight. You can easily say YOU may not be up to it, but to assume nobody is because you aren't is going a bit far.

pax
August 24, 2005, 11:24 AM
Hey guys? It doesn't matter whether open carry is, or is not, a good idea.

The actual issue is whether the police may reasonably harrass someone who is obeying the law as it is written.

Just because you don't want to do a thing yourself doesn't mean there should be a law against other people doing it. Nor does it mean that police should step outside the bounds of the law to harrass people for doing whatever it is.

Personally, I've never felt any great urge to shoot blackpowder. Does that mean that shooting blackpower firearms should be against the law? Or that police should harrass anyone who shoots blackpowder, even though shooting blackpowder is not against the law?

Careful what you wish for. You might get it.

pax

The most basic question is not what is best but who shall decide what is best. -- Thomas Sowell

Malamute
August 24, 2005, 01:47 PM
Well said Pax.

CARRY'IN
August 24, 2005, 02:51 PM
The actual issue is whether the police may reasonably harrass someone who is obeying the law as it is written.

Never heard of "reasonable" harrassment. If it is legal then the police are either hopelessly stupid (it is an important thing to know) or they are indeed harrassing citizens and should be disciplined. Either way, the cops fulfill the stereotype ignorant bullies many people hold. But seeing as how even in the wild west, in texas no less, some of the first laws frontier towns would pass would be against open carry, I think it is a valid issue to discuss.

Malamute
August 24, 2005, 02:55 PM
The "wild west" may be more diverse (or less restrictive)than indicated in the last post. Texas, Tombstone, and Dodge City had laws against carrying, but most of the rest of the west did not that I have ever heard of. Most of the Rocky Mountain states still have no laws against open carry.

bamawrx
August 24, 2005, 02:57 PM
"If in fact there happen's to be a "robbery about to happen" the only thing you will accomplish by open carry is being the first one shot.... "

I am going to puke if I read this again. :fire: How about giving us ONE example where an open carry person got shot first in an armed robbery. Your statement sounds similar to "if you have a gun the only thing that will happen is the bad guy will take it from you and shoot you with it"

CARRY'IN
August 24, 2005, 03:08 PM
Texas, Tombstone, and Dodge City had laws against carrying, but most of the rest of the west did not that I have ever heard of.

I would venture the towns where there were alot of drunk cowboys shooting each other over who's hefer was prettier were the ones with laws against open carrry. I would also guess that in other places people had enough sense not to strut around amongst Christian folk with a deadly weapon strapped to their hip- not when there was no need for it anyway. So in any case- a bad cowtown or mining town, or a more peaceable community, open carry was not considered acceptable or polite I think. Just because there was no law against it does not mean it was common practice. If someone was being a nuisance and wearing their handcannons I imagine the local sheriff would do a little harrassing in the old days.

mnrivrat
August 24, 2005, 03:17 PM
Just because you don't want to do a thing yourself doesn't mean there should be a law against other people doing it. Nor does it mean that police should step outside the bounds of the law to harrass people for doing whatever it is.

Good Valid Point !

It basically comes down to tolerance and social ecceptance in my opinion. If a person expects his fellow citizens to tolerate his or hers idea of how to live life, then they must also be tolerant of how others live.

The open carry issue is one of tolerance and social ecceptance and that's why the location of the person is part of the consideration for how they feel on the subject.

I don't know the correct answer as to how to change the social structure of an area so that open carry is more acceptable. I do know that when I walk into a grocery store in most area's of Arizona , with a gun showing , I won't get a second glance from hardly anybody. If I would do the same in my home town here in Minnesota, I wouldn't be at all surprised to be greeted by the local LEO's before I left the store.

It will take a person smarter than I to figure out wether open carry in some area's is the right or wrong answer to change the social ecceptance.

And while one may not care if it is acceptable , you should know that your neighbors also have the right to vote . So you should also take that into account .

CARRY'IN
August 24, 2005, 03:26 PM
My problem with open carry is parking lot disagreements (as one example). Someone cuts you off in the parking lot and takes your spot and you have words with them (and your .45 is concealed) that is one thing, but any kind of argument or altercation with guns displayed is another. It makes people nervous- and I dont blame them cause two armed men arguing makes me nervous to. Not to mention the fact that if I am unarmed, I really dont want a stranger with a gun on his belt getting in my face. And dont tell me everyone would have perfect manners just because they are carry'in.

antsi
August 24, 2005, 03:50 PM
A few observations:

1) Ridiculous to compare the actions of these cops to totalitarian police-state goons. JBT's beat you to death in the dungeon of the Lubyanka, or send you off to Siberia as slave labor to be worked to death in a coal mine. These cops were misguided, misinformed, and rude, and they abused their authority by hassling someone. That's bad, but not quite as bad as what real JBT's do.

2) That said, the conduct of the officers was wrong and unprofessional. They should be subject to some kind of disciplinary action and should also be required to learn the laws they are supposed to be enforcing. They should also be required to practice proper safe gun handling.

3) The open carrying guy (we'll call him OCG) is a fool. Yes, apparently, under Georgia law what he was doing was perfectly legal, and like most people on THR, I agree that open carry should be legal and it should be accepted. But obviously, in this part of Georgia, there is a discrepancy between what is right and legal, and what the actual prevailing conditions are.

It does often occur in life that there are such discrepancies between "correct" and "actual." When such discrepancies occur, we have two choices: 1) undertake effective political action to change the acutal prevailing conditions until they are in alignment with what is legal and right, or else 2) comply with the actual prevailing conditions. OCG did neither, and accomplished nothing.

If OCG's goal was to protest against the discrepancy between Georgia law and the actual conditions, to undertake a political action, to raise awareness of this issue and win people's opnions to his side, and to change the way things are, he went about it all wrong. The people in Ohio who organized an open-carry march are an example of how to do it right.

If OCG's goal was to go to the 7-11 and get an Icee, he should have made himself aware of the local conditions and either concealed his weapon, or else not carried.

In actuality, all he did was buy himself a lot of hassle, which although it is not ideal, legal, right, or correct, is a forseeable consequence of carrying openly in a community where open carry is not accepted. If his aim was to get an Icee, he made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be. If his goal was to make a political statement, he did a very poor job of it. If his goal was to go about his business with the ability to defend himself, he did it in a way that was forseeably likely to generate a hassle.

Malamute
August 24, 2005, 03:50 PM
"I would venture the towns where there were alot of drunk cowboys shooting each other over who's hefer was prettier were the ones with laws against open carrry. I would also guess that in other places people had enough sense not to strut around amongst Christian folk with a deadly weapon strapped to their hip- not when there was no need for it anyway. So in any case- a bad cowtown or mining town, or a more peaceable community, open carry was not considered acceptable or polite I think. Just because there was no law against it does not mean it was common practice. If someone was being a nuisance and wearing their handcannons I imagine the local sheriff would do a little harrassing in the old days."


Really don't mean to come off as being so critical, but this is a lot of surmising.

Not sure what the "Christian folk" part means, as many of the people I know that carry, open or concealed, are Christian. Would you be implying that there is something unChristian about carrying a gun? In the days past, people would be coming or going from town, and where a person would leave their gun, just to avoid distressing a town person of fragile sensibilities, is unknown to me. At home 15 miles away? And ride/drive the trail to town unarmed? Sitting looped over the saddle horn on your horse? My understanding, from photos, and historical information, is that certainly not everyone carried full time, and some never carried, (at least openly), but it was not unusual to see people carrying in town in any frontier town.

Arguing with someone in a parking lot is not a good idea in any event, being openly armed has little bearing on it, as people with the inclination to shoot someone over a parking lot dispute may be armed covertly. I've lived in places where open carry was accepted pretty well, and in the past have carried openly for a number of years as a matter of course. Yes, some people being armed bothers me, but that is a matter of the individual, not the general open carry concept.

erh
August 24, 2005, 04:03 PM
Been carrying here for several years; it never occured to me that I would want people to know (or see) that. I guess it's just me... In any case those LEO's werecorrect in their coarse of action; although the "Bully" stuff sucked for sure! Fortunately, I've really only met cool cops in Georgia thus far.

44and45
August 24, 2005, 04:53 PM
Not a good idea to open carry in todays society, todays cops who think like ATF and do their bidding will jump on your butt every time.

Most cops are not our friends in RKBA.

Keep it out of sight until you need it. In the event trouble crops up, surprise the bad boogerman by filling him full of holes that leak profusely.

Jim

NineseveN
August 24, 2005, 08:31 PM
Oh god, not the "If you OC and a robber comes in" argument again...did Feinstein teach you all that? Supposition without fact? I echo the request for some proof that this happens.

Byron Quick
August 25, 2005, 05:23 AM
CARRY'IN,

Tamara has been known to open carry. Do you think it might be a testosterone thing with her?

Oh, open carry without a permit was legal in Georgia until passage of the concealed license permit enabling statutes back in the '70's. Just as the blood in the streets scenarios of the anti's don't conform to reality...neither does the hysteria over open carry proposed by some here have any congruence with almost two hundred and fifty years of open carry in Georgia.

But, continue, don't let me confuse you with facts or logic.

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 10:05 AM
But, continue, don't let me confuse you with facts or logic.

OK. I will go on. I dont want people walking around with guns on their hips. No good reason for it. It is not 1870 in indian territory, nor is it the African veldt. Very few people want to see it, and when they do it turns them off about guns and thus removes support for RKBA. Most nine year old boys would agree that open carry is a good idea but I would bet support dwindles with maturity. It is the year 2005; a room full of people with guns displayed is a freak show- a room full of people with concealed weapons is a room full of people.

Flyboy
August 25, 2005, 01:11 PM
OK. I will go on. I dont want people walking around with guns on their hips.
Well good for you. I suppose we ought to all change what we want to do and adjust our behavior to suit what you want, right?

Mmmm, gotta love that liberal tolerance.

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 01:25 PM
Even if a person has been robbed at gunpoint before, there is no logical reason for them to be scared of firearms.

My liberal tolerance makes more sense than your conservative genius.

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 01:52 PM
Why, did the gun rob the person? Because it seems to me like you're engaging in less-than-useful extrapolation on that one. The gun did not rob anyone. What if one was robbed by a gym-nut from Muscle Beach? Should large, muscular people then stay in doors so that everyone is comfortable?

And going back to one of your previous posts...would you start an argument over a parking spot if you were carrying concealed? That's a bad move, and I wouldn't want you carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise. But I will support and defend your right to do so, even though you having one makes [me] uncomfortable.

Most people of maturity don't start arguments or antagonize strangers anyway. And when you are carrying, you shouldn't be getting in anyone's face. Go find another space, otherwise you're just asking to provoke the wrong person over something that was never truly yours and possibly having it spiral out of control where you have to draw on them and end their life. You see a gun on their hip, you'd think twice I'd bet. If you didn't, you truly are not fit to carry in any manner. Just my opinion of course.

I did have someone's rotweiler jump out of their truck and take a run at me. I spun around and drew the trusty HK and the dog kinda stopped and looked at me. The owner then threw himself on top of the dog. In that sort of parking lot scenario, I don't think it would have mattered if one was CCW or open.

I don't carry open except at work. I probably would not normally carry open if I could. I live in a state where it is not allowed by law. I carry concealed basically whenever I am awake and not in bed or the shower. But if people want to do it, great for them if it is legal.

jwmoore
August 25, 2005, 02:23 PM
NineseveN said:
I live in a state where it is not allowed by law.
Your location says Pennsylvania. Can you cite this law, please?

Thanks,
~W

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 02:55 PM
Oops, typo. Meant city. Pittsburgh has or had laws on the books prohibiting Open Carry. Philly too as I recall it. I just moved to Johnstown, would be interesting to know though here. As I remember it, the wording in the actual law only aplies to Concealed Carry (in a car requires CCW permit too) but there is nothing about open carry there. Hmmm.

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 03:23 PM
OK. I will go on. I dont want people walking around with guns on their hips.

What if I dont want to see homosexuals walking around holding hands?

What if i dont want to see Christians walking around wearing a cross openly?

What if i dont want to see a Democrat driving around with a "Kerry '04" bumper sticker?

Does what I dont want to see count as much as what you dont want to see? If not, WHY not?

Nicky Santoro
August 25, 2005, 03:34 PM
"just because you've got a permit doesn't mean we welcome it."

Where do you start with something like this? The guy was obeying the law but the cops don't like the law so they hassle and threaten him. They need to be brought up on charges then dismissed with all benefits forfeited as a lesson to other potential bad apples.

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 04:27 PM
I want to keep my right to carry a firearm. But letting Jimbo with a front tooth missing and a swastika tatoo walk around town with a cannon on his hip to be photographed and put on the cover of TIME, Newsweek, and whoever else will buy the photo is not going to help my cause. Not alot of common sense being exercised on this thread. Most of the population does not want to see a gun strapped on Joebob in the supermarket- GET IT? If they see what they dont like, whether in person or on television or wherever, politicians will take advantage of it and I have less likelihood of staying armed. Thanks to you open carry fans. As someone who supports RKBA, carries concealed and wants to continue doing so, PLEASE DONT HELP. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 04:44 PM
Substitute "open carry" with "blacks" or "gays" and you might understand why your attitude may be offensive.

If you dont put RKBA at the same level of importance as civil rights then you're part of the problem. Worse really - as you're just like those blacks who said "Rosa, why couldnt you have just sat at the back of the bus? Why'd you have to go and make trouble for us?"

I know this may come as a big shock to you, but some of us really do consider RKBA to be that important, and are just as offended by the attitude that we should keep that right out of the public eye, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the stupid.

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 04:52 PM
There is a lunatic fringe in every group that often ruins it for everyone. :banghead:

JohnBT
August 25, 2005, 04:55 PM
Tag, you're it. :neener: ;)

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Life, I can't spell Endowmnet, Member

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 05:01 PM
Nice - so those of us who dont want to be treated like criminals and forced to keep out of sight less someone from polite company see us are now the lunatic fringe?

:what:

It is you my friend who is suggesting that rather than convince others THROUGH OUR ACTIONS that the majority of gun owners are not slack-jawed, inbred, toothless cretins, that we remain in the dark and allow everyone else to remain blissful in their ignorance - and retain their incorrect stereotypes.

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 05:13 PM
You are so waaaaay off it's not even funny. You sir, are part of the problem. The fact that you fail to see this, and yet you argue against those of us that truly support the 2A makes you dangerous.

Groveling for table scraps of acceptance through ignorance is no way to live as a free man. You're not "allowed" to "keep and bear arms", you have right to it. The government did not give you that right. I did not give you that right, you did not even give yourself that right. It's your right simply for being born and an American citizen. Are you familiar with the Constitution?

Like has been said, your attitude towards this is the same as the blacks that told Rosa to sit down, or MLK to shut up. It's the same as those women that stood against Susan B Anthony and told her that they don't care about civil rights, they don't want her causing no trouble.

Gay Marriage went through, partly because it was, in fact, in your face.

Women’s rights pushed through, largely because it was, right in the face of Joe-public and he was forced to deal with it.

The rights of blacks and other minorities have gotten where they are today exactly because it was, in fact, in the face of the nation, not tucked away in some holster underneath a shirt.

You don't acclimate a culture to something by hiding it from them. This is a basic and nearly universal truth. Acceptance comes from recognition, realization and reconciliation. If we hide our guns and ourselves, we will never gain any acceptance, but the more people see that men and women can walk public streets, armed, and that the world is not a dangerous place because of it, the more acceptance we may get. They may even come to realize what we already know, an armed society is, as a rule, much safer than an unarmed one.

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 05:19 PM
The civil rights angle is not going to work. If you push the public on this then we will be disarmed. No thanks.

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 05:23 PM
The civil rights angle is not going to work.

Why not? Because its accurate and you have no valid response, or because you are incapable of understanding the parallel?

If you push the public on this then we will be disarmed. No thanks.
Oh really? Perhaps you will be my friend, but not people like me.

Additionally - and i do not say this to play keyboard kommando, but to point out a raw fact - how do you propose we would be disarmed? At what point do you think the state would run out of people willing to enforce the order to collect the guns?

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 05:28 PM
Give up on this one, CARRY'IN is an anti at heart, he's just a lesser level of anti. And that's okay, everyone's got to have opinions and all. The term "anti", BTW, was not meant to offend. I am using it to refer someone that takes a stance against the second amendment.

The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. If you advocate infringing on that right, in any way, shape or form, you're are not really a friend of the second amendment, now are you?

Disarmed? Molon Labe. :neener:

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 05:31 PM
I dont think he's completely a lost cause NineseveN.

He's intelligent - which counts for something.

While he's dismissed it here, he may well consider what has been presented to him at some later date and realize he was wrong.

I've seen it work in the past, and i know it will work in the future. If it means I only change one mind at a time, so be it. Thats one more who stands on our side.

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 05:36 PM
No doubt he's intelligent, and it counts for a lot. If you can change his mind, then you are a better man than I. Me, I'm content with just arguing a little with him. :D

LiquidTension
August 25, 2005, 05:40 PM
My liberal tolerance makes more sense than your conservative genius.

I, too, tolerate liberals, and the fact that I'm conservative and a genius has little to do with the point I was making :neener:

I was attacked with a baseball bat several years ago. Am I now afraid of baseball bats? Nope. Why not? Because I'm intelligent enough to realize that the bat wasn't included in the decision-making process that led to my assault :rolleyes: Apparently "liberal tolerance" and common sense are mutually exclusive characteristics in your case. Forgive me if I put more faith in reason than in mindless fear.

dpesec
August 25, 2005, 06:46 PM
Standing Wolf,
TI don't open carry like I said because idon't want to be hastled. Also, my girlfriend's a bit jumpy when I'm armed, she's not thrilled with weapons.
Third, and if SHTF, if nobody knows I'm armed I'm at an advantage because I know how the BGs are.

Strings
August 25, 2005, 07:40 PM
Umm... just to point something out. It's my understanding that one of the main reasons Ohio finally got CCW was they were pulling open-carry marches...

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 08:36 PM
If you advocate infringing on that right, in any way, shape or form, you're are not really a friend of the second amendment, now are you?

Hmmm. You may want to think about that one. All there was to be had in the late 1700's was flintlock muzzleloaders, very big grenades, cannons, and specialty weapons like mortars and rockets. I would think the RKBA applies to the flintlocks. As for the rest I would guess those items were meant to be kept in an armory and not posessed privately. Taken on expeditions, yes, not kept in front of the homestead. How many muskets do you think a modern handgun equates to in terms of firepower? How many people could a madman massacre with a flintlock pistol? The world has changed. If you think any and all small arms should be allowed into the hands of private citizens is the only definition of "pro" and everything else is "anti", I guess I am not a friend of the second amendment. There has to be limits. If you are not willing to set those limits your fellow citizens will- by completely solving their "problem." I want to be able to defend myself and my family. I would rather do it with my Makarov than with a pocket knife. As for fighting a revolution and bringing down a tyrant in this day and age- I have no illusions about that. I think you do. Maybe I will change my mind, but I have not heard a single worthwhile argument in favor of open carry so far.

50 Freak
August 25, 2005, 08:40 PM
I got to agree with not wanting to see everyone strapping a sidearm. This is a modern day America. Not the old wild west. There is no place here for Joe Public to be walking through some mall with a Glock in a holster.

I don't care if it's legal or not. It's stupid. If frightens the sheeple and paints us as "nut jobs". Not to mention it invites trouble with the LE's. If the states allowed open carry and more and more of us started to open carry how long do you think it would be before the general public (GENERAL PUBLIC, not us gun nuts here) would start pushing through even tougher gun laws.

Name one other first world country out there that allows it's citizens to walk around with artillery strapped to them. Isreal doesn't count. They are under constant attack from their neighbors and only their soldier (plain clothes or not) can carry.

The US is not in the constant danger of being attacked by it's neighbors or "allah akaba" screaming fanatics. Why should we live in a state of war.

Beside, I carry concealed. If I were in a "situation" I wouldn't want to be singled out to be the first one to be shot cause I was packing. I want the element of suprise on my side when I whip out my mini vulcan "SBR pistol" and pump 6000 rounds into a bad guy. :evil: :evil:

Malamute
August 25, 2005, 08:40 PM
"... Not alot of common sense being exercised on this thread...."

Carry'in,

Does common sense being exercised only apply to those that share your opinion?

You mentioned that it is not 1870's Indian territory, or that there is no REASON to carry openly in our modern enlightened time (to paraphrase). I would suggest that there is more reason to carry in some cities than there ever was in much of the frontier.

I find it interesting that your handle on THR implies carrying a gun, but you find it distastfull that some choose to do so openly, and you find it necesary to make insulting comments about the intelligence and general character of those that would.

Mark Twain made an interesting comment about arguments, but I shall refrain from repeating it here.

gm
August 25, 2005, 08:43 PM
"just because you've got a permit doesn't mean we welcome it." thats not acceptable behavior and I agree with nicky, people with attitudes such as this do not need to be in a profession that mandates contact with the public..and the lack of safty in the poor gun handling skills by pointing it at bystanders innocently waiting in line? not professional in the least.




Ive seen folks fired for less than this. Id contact the depts internal affairs, itll trickle down to the chiefs desk.

Malamute
August 25, 2005, 08:45 PM
"The US is not in the constant danger of being attacked by it's neighbors or "allah akaba" screaming fanatics. Why should we live in a state of war."


HEY! I don't know about you, but I've been suspicious of those Canadians for a long time. I think they've been eyeing our nice warm country for a long time now.

No_Brakes23
August 25, 2005, 08:47 PM
Isreal [sic] doesn't count. They are under constant attack from their neighbors and only their soldier (plain clothes or not) can carry. No, not true. Bubba Joe Kosher taking the kindergarten class on a field trip is allowed to carry, and FA rifles, not jsut pea-shooters.

I would think the RKBA applies to the flintlocks. Wow, Carry'in That is just about as anti 2a as I have ever seen on this board. I suppose you think this pic espouses a fringe gun nut idea, then?

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_quills.jpg

pax
August 25, 2005, 08:47 PM
Carry'in,

Yeah. The 1st amendment only applies to quill pens on parchment, and the 2nd applies only to flintlocks. :rolleyes: Makes perfect sense, doesn't it.

As for the rest I would guess those items were meant to be kept in an armory and not posessed privately.
You would guess wrong. Rich guys owned battleships. Yes, privately.

pax

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 08:50 PM
I don't care if it's legal or not. It's stupid. If frightens the sheeple and paints us as "nut jobs". Not to mention it invites trouble with the LE's. If the states allowed open carry and more and more of us started to open carry how long do you think it would be before the general public (GENERAL PUBLIC, not us gun nuts here) would start pushing through even tougher gun laws.

There IS intelligent life here!

50 Freak
August 25, 2005, 08:52 PM
"The US is not in the constant danger of being attacked by it's neighbors or "allah akaba" screaming fanatics. Why should we live in a state of war."

HEY! I don't know about you, but I've been suspicious of those Canadians for a long time. I think they've been eyeing our nice warm country for a long time now.

Okay, you got me on the Canadians.....If it wasn't for their Bacon and syrup, they'd be as worthless as Viagra to a eunuchs

There IS intelligent life here! Where!!!!!!!!!!! :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

Malamute
August 25, 2005, 08:53 PM
Pax, good point.

You turn up with some interesting information! (the battleship)

Malamute
August 25, 2005, 08:55 PM
50, Had to laugh at that....


Hope we all can keep our sense of humor, even tho we don't see the world the same all the time.

pax
August 25, 2005, 08:57 PM
Heh, by the way, we're still off topic.

The issue still isn't whether open carry is, or is not, a good idea.

The issue is whether police officers may harrass citizens who aren't breaking the law. The question is whether an officer is bound to uphold the actual law, or whether it's okay for a LEO to just start ragging on anyone who's doing something the officer doesn't like to see.

pax

Nothing can destroy a government more quickly than its failure to observe its own laws, or worse, its disregard of the charter of its own existence. – U.S. Supreme Court Justice Tom C. Clark - Mapp vs. Ohio

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 09:02 PM
Oh. My. (expletive deleted). God. I do not freaking believe i have to address this unmitigated bullsqueeze on THIS board.

Hmmm. You may want to think about that one. All there was to be had in the late 1700's was flintlock muzzleloaders, very big grenades, cannons, and specialty weapons like mortars and rockets. I would think the RKBA applies to the flintlocks.
Flintlocks and any other form of weapon.

As for the rest I would guess those items were meant to be kept in an armory and not posessed privately. Taken on expeditions, yes, not kept in front of the homestead.

I would like to direct you sir to the war of 1812 in which privately owned naval vessels were pressed into service repelling the English. These "weapons of war" were most certainly armed with much more than flintlocks. This alone destroys your argument that heavy ordinance was not privately owned.

Never mind the documented fact that many property owners kept cannon on their land.

Even today there are people which have in their private collections some pretty serious stuff - and by serious, i mean large artillery and armor.


How many muskets do you think a modern handgun equates to in terms of firepower? How many people could a madman massacre with a flintlock pistol?

Next comes the craptastic line about a massacre by muzzleloader. Do i really need to remind you, my friend, that the gun is not the criminal and how it could be misused is irrelevant?

The world has changed.

No it hasnt. Its still the same place, and people still want the same things. There are just more people and better technology, but we dont want to get into an existential discussion of the human condition.

If you think any and all small arms should be allowed into the hands of private citizens is the only definition of "pro" and everything else is "anti", I guess I am not a friend of the second amendment.There has to be limits.

No sir you are not. That said, I retract my previous statement. You only APPEAR intelligent, and you are a lost cause.

If you are not willing to set those limits your fellow citizens will- by completely solving their "problem." I want to be able to defend myself and my family. I would rather do it with my Makarov than with a pocket knife.
The limits i set are simple my friend. Do not misuse your firearm, and you have nothing to worry about. Misuse it and commit a crime, and you go to jail for a very long time - if you dont just find yourself meeting St. Peter.

As for fighting a revolution and bringing down a tyrant in this day and age- I have no illusions about that. I think you do.

I'm not addressing this. There are far better people on this board than myself to educate you on this topic.

Maybe I will change my mind,

Doubt it - you have to have one first.

but I have not heard a single worthwhile argument in favor of open carry so far.

Thats because you havent been listening. Perhaps you should consider it this way: Rather than require others to provide an argument for open carry, perhaps you could present a single legitimate one against it?

Oh wait - never mind, you already did in your mind. You dont like it - and we should just accept that.

You disgust me sir.


Ok - Rant mode off. Getting back on topic now.

50 Freak
August 25, 2005, 09:10 PM
Heh, by the way, we're still off topic.

AGREED!!!!!!!!

Bad Cops, no donut.

We have our share of LE's that like to threaten out here in Kali. I've run into one or two in my past. Last one was bout 8 months ago. Jerk gave me a ticket and threaten to throw me in jail when I "challenged" his authority.

I ended up giving his sargent and captain a call and gave them an earful and threatened to go to the mayor about my treatment. Funny how the ticket just "disappeared".


Getting off the subject, but I had a buddy that was killed in the line of duty a month ago. sh*tbag gangbanger is hopefully getting ass-slammed by every one and their mother in prison right now. Reminded me most cops are good honest people trying to do a crappy job for crappy pay. And these "bad cops" are a small percentage :( :(

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 09:23 PM
Hmmm. You may want to think about that one. All there was to be had in the late 1700's was flintlock muzzleloaders, very big grenades, cannons, and specialty weapons like mortars and rockets. I would think the RKBA applies to the flintlocks. As for the rest I would guess those items were meant to be kept in an armory and not posessed privately. Taken on expeditions, yes, not kept in front of the homestead. How many muskets do you think a modern handgun equates to in terms of firepower? How many people could a madman massacre with a flintlock pistol? The world has changed. If you think any and all small arms should be allowed into the hands of private citizens is the only definition of "pro" and everything else is "anti", I guess I am not a friend of the second amendment. There has to be limits. If you are not willing to set those limits your fellow citizens will- by completely solving their "problem." I want to be able to defend myself and my family. I would rather do it with my Makarov than with a pocket knife. As for fighting a revolution and bringing down a tyrant in this day and age- I have no illusions about that. I think you do. Maybe I will change my mind, but I have not heard a single worthwhile argument in favor of open carry so far.

You obviously have no clue what the second amendment is about. have you even read the constitution? everything about your tone, your language and your argument screams "anti". You even use some of their propaganda talk about criminal misuse of firearms.

Criminals misusing firearms has nothing, nada, zero, zip, zilch, nein, not on friggen thing to do with the second amendment. neither does hunting, sporting purposes or resonable control/restricitions/limits, noe of that has any place in this discussion unless you're an anti.


Those that would trade some of their liberty for safety deserve neither. But you wouldn't understand that I suppose. The only argument for open carry needs is that it is a right. period, end of story. We don't have to justify free speech, do we? So why this, and to whom? To you? Get real. You want to infringe upon that right because you are afraid of guns and you want to decide who gets to have them, carry them and what guns they have and can carry. You are an anti, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with showing your colors kid, but call a spade a spade.

Mauserguy
August 25, 2005, 09:23 PM
My guess is that the first cop was a jerk, or ignorant of the rules, and it took the second cop to rescue him. I bet that the second cop was just saving face for the first guy.
Mauserguy

Tsonda
August 25, 2005, 09:23 PM
I have to say i am dissapointed in many of you, what is popular or acceptable etc. is not the issue. The mans rights are, I live in Texas where we are illegally denied the right to open carry and i would love to open carry. All of you who do not like it or have a desiree to please the sheeple are no different than the "git to the back of the bus types" previously mentioned.

NineseveN
August 25, 2005, 09:28 PM
The issue is whether police officers may harrass citizens who aren't breaking the law. The question is whether an officer is bound to uphold the actual law, or whether it's okay for a LEO to just start ragging on anyone who's doing something the officer doesn't like to see.

LEO's asking questions is fine. I'm not bothered if a cop comes by and asks what I am doing walking the city streets alone at 3am. But it should end there. When I calmly explain that it's a hot summer, I am just out for a stroll and I live a couple of blocks away, it should end there. When I am washing my car with a .45 on my hip, a cop can swing by and say hi, make their presence known and I am okay with that. but at that point, don't ask what I am doing with a gun on my own property like it's a crime.

It is not okay for an officer to say they don't have to honor a permit or a law or a right. Those jerks need to be booted down into the janitorial ranks at the local coal plant. They are simply not the material needed t make a police officer.

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 09:32 PM
Welcome aboard.

:D

Sorry you had to see the uglier side of some of the posters here so early.

The Real Hawkeye
August 25, 2005, 09:59 PM
If you are concerned that people are afraid when they see open carry, you should want more of it. The more times people call the police because someone is open carrying legally, and then are told by the police that there is nothing that can be done because the person was within his rights to do it, the more accepting the sheeple will eventually become of it and of guns in general. If there is only concealed carry, as far as the sheeple are concerned, there is no such thing as authorized carry, because they don't know anything about it, and it is never brought to their attention.

Flyboy
August 25, 2005, 10:21 PM
I want to keep my right to carry a firearm. But letting Jimbo with a front tooth missing and a swastika tatoo walk around town with a cannon on his hip...Ah, I see. Carrying guns is fine, as long as it's only the right people carrying.

Sir, I suggest you look up, in no particular order: Tennessee's "Army and Navy Law," New York's Sullivan Law, and you might also look up the term "******town Saturday Night Special," though most of the bigots have dropped the first word from the phrase.

Your position smacks of ivory-tower elitism in ways Ted Kennedy and Dianne Feinstein exemplify: congratulations, you seem to have learned well from your local leadership. I am not rightly able to comprehend the arrogant state of mind that spawns such a worldview.Hmmm. You may want to think about that one. All there was to be had in the late 1700's was flintlock muzzleloaders, very big grenades, cannons, and specialty weapons like mortars and rockets. I would think the RKBA applies to the flintlocks. As for the rest I would guess those items were meant to be kept in an armory and not posessed privately.As pax has pointed out, you would think wrong. To your reading list, I would add "letters of marque and reprisal," which are explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. They're specific to privately-owned warships, pretty much by definition. I would also mention that land weapons were also privately owned: towns would often chip in to buy cannon, and wealthy landownwers frequently contributed significantly, if not buying their own outright. Further, even some (government) Navy vessels were "uprated" by their captains, who bought extra cannon with their own money to outfit their ships.

Two more things for your reading list: The Federalist and The Anti-Federalist. You'll find that they go a long way toward correcting your deficient understanding of American history and politics.

Pax, to answer your claim that this is off-topic, you're mostly right; however, I'd argue that this attitude, and finding a means to correct it, is in fact at the very heart of the matter.

Tsonda
August 25, 2005, 10:26 PM
Thansks, HD I have lurked for several months and found this to be a great forum. But some folks just don't get it. As for the rest of the right thinking folks go git 'em. I am to tired to fight tonite.

Tylden
August 25, 2005, 10:59 PM
This is America folks. The law is the law, and rights are rights, and America has never been and never will be a "cookie cutter" society. There are people who are pro-gun, anti-gun, open carry, concealed carry, republican, democrat, etc etc etc. As long as the man is within the confines of the law, he has done nothing wrong. I live in an open carry state and do so frequently due to some sort of discreptancy on my record that prevents me from carrying concealed (at least until this is straightened out) but thats another thread. I am perfectly legal to carry open, but also required by law to act responsibly with a firearm (which I do). I realize that some LEO's and some sheeples may not like it, but that doesn't mean I"m going to give up my right to carry to make them more comfortable. Same applies here....the man was well within his rights to carry openly and unless he does something that causes alarm, the police have no reason to confront him other than to confirm he has a license which is required in that state.

CARRY'IN
August 25, 2005, 11:17 PM
You are an anti, plain and simple. Nothing wrong with showing your colors kid, but call a spade a spade.

OK, if you say I am, I guess I am. Thanks for enlightening me. How I can support CCW, be a CCW holder, be an ardent firearms ethusiast, and be an "anti" is kind of confusing to me, but oh well.

HonorsDaddy
August 25, 2005, 11:29 PM
OK, if you say I am, I guess I am. Thanks for enlightening me. How I can support CCW, be a CCW holder, be an ardent firearms ethusiast, and be an "anti" is kind of confusing to me, but oh well.

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...


Personally, i dont think you're an anti. I think you're worse.

You're a gun owner who only wants the right kind of people - i.e. those of whom you approve - owning a gun.

That makes you an elitist and a bigot.

NineseveN
August 26, 2005, 12:20 AM
OK, if you say I am, I guess I am. Thanks for enlightening me. How I can support CCW, be a CCW holder, be an ardent firearms ethusiast, and be an "anti" is kind of confusing to me, but oh well.

Feinstein owns a gun and has a CCWP. :neener:


Quack.

Flyboy
August 26, 2005, 12:45 AM
So, ErikF, what did you end up doing?

cracked butt
August 26, 2005, 03:46 AM
That makes you an elitist and a bigot.

I would add troll as well. ;)

50 Freak
August 26, 2005, 04:03 AM
Feinstein owns a gun and has a CCWP.

Technically not true. She is an "honorary" marshall and hence can carry concealed. But she doesn't have a CCW like you or I.

She did once, but got so much slack for it, she gave it up and "worked" out another way of legally carrying. Hyprocritical Elitist Bi-atch. :fire: :fire:

Gentleman. Lets agree to disagree. Some Pro RKBA see no problems with open carry, others do. Let's not be divided over this.

So everyone put pull their panties out of bind and relax. :)

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 04:43 AM
Takes alot more than this crowd to get my panties in a bind. I have been dealing with good ole boy clubs my whole life. Them good ole boys who want to walk around town like Wyatt Earp are the reason RKBA is in trouble in the first place. I can only tell them it is not appropriate to walk around this country with a gun on your hip; ask your fellow citizens, not your fellow gun nuts. They will tell you it is not welcome. And if you refuse to respect their rights, they will just take away yours. I support concealed carry and the RKBA; you may think you support it, but I believe you are your own worst enemy.

cracked butt
August 26, 2005, 05:55 AM
And if you refuse to respect their rights,

I didn't know that people had the right to not be offended. :rolleyes:

berettashotgun
August 26, 2005, 06:19 AM
Right is right and wrong is wrong.Bitchin about a firearm and using the cop-out EXCUSE of the "Offensive" nature of sidearms is retarded. Offensive is on every television channel every hour of the day is the decency standard is in effect, last I checked decency was the forgotten "RIGHT" that my children and extended family deserved. No member of my family has any qualm with an AMERICAN citizen/subject(?) exercising a right, but I personally am infuriated over the indecent activities of the "beautiful" people. They're the real idiots.Conditioned response is what the left are after, any of you fellas with gun shy women need to empower the ladies with the confidence of exercising a GUARANTEED RIGHT.

Derby FALs
August 26, 2005, 06:39 AM
No offense but, what does someone from San Francisco really know about gun rights in the free world?

:scrutiny:

0007
August 26, 2005, 06:48 AM
Game, set, match to: Derby FALS

grimlock
August 26, 2005, 07:45 AM
Wait a minute here, fellas. Let's think this through.

Carries concealed and has no problem with that.
Seems elitist, doesn't want "the wrong people" carrying.
Tends to quote gun grabber distortions in arguments.
Lives in San Francisco.

Senator Feinstein, is that you? :cuss:

The Real Hawkeye
August 26, 2005, 09:13 AM
They will tell you it is not welcome. And if you refuse to respect their rights, they will just take away yours.Wait one minute! The right to keep and bear arms IS a right, but there is no such right as the right to require other people not to do things which you find frightening. If that were a right, you could justify laws against the public display of tattoos. Many people find men with tattoos frightening. Should exposing your tattoos be outlawed too? After all, if tattoo wearers want to continue to have the liberty to decorate their bodies they need to respect the right of others not to be frightened by their tattoos, right? Some people are frightened by hammers. Believe me, it's true. What about a law against openly carrying a hammer? After all, if you want to be able to enjoy the liberty of possessing carpentry tools, you really need to start respecting the right of all people not to be frightened by the open carry of hammers, yes? You don't want to be a hypocrite, do you?

NineseveN
August 26, 2005, 09:47 AM
Technically not true. She is an "honorary" marshall and hence can carry concealed. But she doesn't have a CCW like you or I.

She did once, but got so much slack for it, she gave it up and "worked" out another way of legally carrying. Hyprocritical Elitist Bi-atch.

Check mate. That I did not know.

One question:

Was she any more or less of an Anti when she did or did not have the CCWP?

erh
August 26, 2005, 10:01 AM
Since "All of us Know WE are right", lets all just do what we're gonna do and quit whining about the subject... Besides; "Mine's Bigger Than Yours Is"...!!! ;)

thumbody
August 26, 2005, 12:06 PM
CARRY'IN
May I point out to you that in most states Open carry was never outlawed only concealed carry,Know why?
Cause an honest man had no reason to hide his arms only criminals hid their arms so they could get the drop on the honest.
How often has an armed robbery been commited by someone openly carrying?
It is sad that so many now have to hide their guns like a CRIMINAL to conform to the ideals that cowardly sheeple believe in.

50 Freak
August 26, 2005, 03:06 PM
No offense but, what does someone from San Francisco really know about gun rights in the free world?

We would probably know more than you about gun rights. As the gun nuts here have had our rights attacked and slowly taken away from us for over a decade now. This didn't happen because we sat compliantly and don't fight it tooth and nail, but more so because the anti's outnumbers us something like 50 billion to one.

We often know our laws better than the LE's assigned to enforce them or the crappy politicians that come up with these crappy laws in the first place.

Trust me, if family, friends, jobs, our very homes didn't tie us down to Cali, you'd see a huge damn exodus out of this freaking state to Arizona or Texas.

I can't wait till the kids grow up and leave the house and I can retire, I'm so tired of dealing with BS from all the liberal soccer moms out here. Can't even take a piss in the woods without hitting someone hugging a freaking tree.

Was she any more or less of an Anti when she did or did not have the CCWP?

Don't know, Sometimes the people marching in the streets for world peace are the biggest war mongers in existance. Just no telling with some people. Can say though, she's always been a self serving elitist hyprocrital fugly assed bi-atch.

Strings
August 26, 2005, 04:12 PM
Actually, it was my understanding that she had given up the carry permit to one gun, but had others (I THINK in Cali you're permit lilsts the weapon). Or so I heard somewhere...

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 04:57 PM
And if you refuse to respect their rights, they will just take away yours.

You scare people when you display a sidearm. Why do you think the cops carry them; it is the power of life and death. When weapons are concealed this fear does not exist. You cannot interact with people, especially strangers, on a day to day basis displaying a sidearm without envy, suspicion, derision, ridicule, anger, and other emotions coming into play. Concealed weapons nullify this problem.

If you scare people the politicians will take advantage of this fear to further their own ends. Politicians dont care that you support RKBA, they only care about what will get them votes. If the fear is not there the Politicians cannot take advantage of it to get votes. Concealed weapons remove a big incentive for politicians to be anti-gun.

50 Freak
August 26, 2005, 05:02 PM
Actually, it was my understanding that she had given up the carry permit to one gun, but had others (I THINK in Cali you're permit lilsts the weapon). Or so I heard somewhere...

In CA, your CCW lists 3 guns that you can carry. Only one permit to person.

She wanted the honorary marshal title so she could carry on planes as with a regular CCW you can't. Bunch of politicians got them until the Marshalls said no more it was an HONORARY title and not a way for politicians to skirt the laws.

M-Rex
August 26, 2005, 05:09 PM
You scare people when you display a sidearm. Why do you think the cops carry them; it is the power of life and death. When weapons are concealed this fear does not exist. You cannot interact with people, especially strangers, on a day to day basis displaying a sidearm without envy, suspicion, derision, ridicule, anger, and other emotions coming into play. Concealed weapons nullify this problem.

If you scare people the politicians will take advantage of this fear to further their own ends. Politicians dont care that you support RKBA, they only care about what will get them votes. If the fear is not there the Politicians cannot take advantage of it to get votes. Concealed weapons remove a big incentive for politicians to be anti-gun.

You are exactly right.

bamawrx
August 26, 2005, 06:39 PM
"You scare people when you display a sidearm" lets try "You scare people in San Fran when you display a sidearm". Now isn't that better. Do try to visit American once and a while as I think you will like it. So many people from Kali think the whole freeking country is just like them, which would make us all a bunch of moon bats.

I had a delivery guy from NY in my home the other day and he remarked at my sidearm. I intended for it to be covered, but long story short he saw it anyway. He wasn't freeked out, but mentioned that he wasn't "used" to the south just yet. Funny thing how his co-worker mentioned he kept a gun in his car, and my wife gave a perky "so do I". The encounter did much to teach the yank about his new home, and I think opened his eyes to the real america.

I bet if you walked down town SF with chapps on you would blend in fine. Do that here and you'll be talking with one of our finest in short order. I think the opinion differences have much to do with culture.

wrx

NineseveN
August 26, 2005, 06:41 PM
+1 to bamarx

There are cultural boundaries.

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 07:08 PM
I think the opinion differences have much to do with culture.

Perhaps. But I lived in Mobile Alabama for seven years and never saw anyone wearing guns (except police). Nicest people I have ever met anywhere. And everyone had guns; took a letter from your preacher to get a CCW back then. Almost all of the homicides were young black men in bar fights with knives- average prison term 6 years. Someone kicked down my next door neighbors apartment door one day and she was screaming "he's going to kill me", I got my shotgun and was opening the door to intercede when he stomped out of her apartment in a rage and left. I asked her if she wanted me to call the police and she said "he is a policeman." Just a story I thought I would throw in :) .

torpid
August 26, 2005, 07:28 PM
Someone kicked down my next door neighbors apartment door one day and she was screaming "he's going to kill me", I got my shotgun and was opening the door to intercede when he stomped out of her apartment in a rage and left.

Don't tell me- you would've been on scene to help her sooner while he was still there, but you were still working on concealing your shotgun before you left your apartment?

(sorry)

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 07:32 PM
Don't tell me- you would've been on scene to help her sooner while he was still there, but you were still working on concealing your shotgun before you left your apartment?

Why did you do that?

torpid
August 26, 2005, 07:33 PM
Don't mind me, I'm being goofy today.
:o

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 07:35 PM
Goofy is good. Goofy gets all the chicks. ;)

torpid
August 26, 2005, 07:37 PM
Goofy gets all the chicks.

Donald is still p*ssed about that too.

Byron Quick
August 26, 2005, 07:38 PM
CARRY'IN,

I've been to Mobile once in my life for about four days...with only one eye working. Can't really tell you about open carry there. Or concealed.

Many of your attitudes seem to be shaped by your environment. My sympathies.

Have you every examined your bigotry? The offensive stereotypes you use? I don't think you used them in public during your stay in Mobile, friend.

I wouldn't be surprised if people reacted in the manner you claimed in San Francisco.

People don't react that way here. You need to get out of California more often. You're turning into a walking advertisement for the people who are praying for the Big One to hit California or for Southern California to be ceded to Aztlan activists.

You're already accepting the party line of the gun grabbers in some areas. How long before the dark side of the force eats your soul, Skywalker?:D

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 07:41 PM
Have you every examined your bigotry? The offensive stereotypes you use? I don't think you used them in public during your stay in Mobile, friend.

What are you talking about? This is getting pretty lame if that is best you can do.

50 Freak
August 26, 2005, 07:42 PM
"You scare people when you display a sidearm" lets try "You scare people in San Fran when you display a sidearm". Now isn't that better. Do try to visit American once and a while as I think you will like it. So many people from Kali think the whole freeking country is just like them, which would make us all a bunch of moon bats.

I've traveled the world many times over not to mention this great country and this "fear" is not isolated to the people of San Francisco. So lets stop stereotyping.

Packing a pistol is fine in the more rural areas, but seriously, packing one down the streets of SF, LA, NY or any other cosmopolitian city will get you a lot of trouble. Try carrying openly down Phoenix, AR or Austin TX (more g-friendly states) and tell me if people will fear you. I'll bet you money you'll spend some time having to explain yourself to the local PD.

Beside, concealed is just a little more gentile if you ask me. I hate scaring the ladies with my big barreled gun. :evil: :evil:

HonorsDaddy
August 26, 2005, 07:46 PM
You scare people when you display a sidearm. Why do you think the cops carry them; it is the power of life and death. When weapons are concealed this fear does not exist. You cannot interact with people, especially strangers, on a day to day basis displaying a sidearm without envy, suspicion, derision, ridicule, anger, and other emotions coming into play. Concealed weapons nullify this problem.

If you scare people the politicians will take advantage of this fear to further their own ends. Politicians dont care that you support RKBA, they only care about what will get them votes. If the fear is not there the Politicians cannot take advantage of it to get votes. Concealed weapons remove a big incentive for politicians to be anti-gun.
Lets rewrite this to illustrate the fallacy shall we?

You scare people when you allow blacks to sit at the lunch counter or in the front of the bus. Why do you think the cops arrest them when they do this? When blacks are concealed this fear does not exist. You cannot interact with white people, especially strangers, on a day to day basis as a black man without envy, suspicion, derision, ridicule, anger, and other emotions coming into play. Keeping the blacks out of sight nullifies this problem.

If you scare people the politicians will take advantage of this fear to further their own ends. Politicians dont care that you support freedom for all races, they only care about what will get them votes. If the fear is not there the Politicians cannot take advantage of it to get votes. Keeping blacks out of polite society removes a big incentive for politicians to be anti-black.

Is what you are saying a little clearer now?

Byron Quick
August 26, 2005, 07:54 PM
What are you talking about? This is getting pretty lame if that is best you can do.

I am talking about bigotry directed toward the people you described as:

Nicest people I have ever met anywhere.

Jimbo with front tooth missing. Joebob....


Tell you what. Go back to Mobile. Go to a working class bar. Start talking about how the people in Mobile are the nicest you have ever met. Except for the occasional "Jimbo with the front tooth missing" and "Joebob." Hold forth on your worldview in that manner. Expand upon it. Give us a report on the enthusiasm of your audience.

Bigotry, I said. Bigotry, I meant.

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 08:06 PM
Except for the occasional "Jimbo with the front tooth missing" and "Joebob."

Come to SF Byron, to rodeo's at the cow palace, to the county fairs, to the leather shops downtown. You cant drive through the hills without smelling horse crap. Plenty of Jimbo's and Joebob's around here. Your psychic powers need fine tuning. Dont assume, ask first.

NineseveN
August 26, 2005, 08:07 PM
Bigotry, I said. Bigotry, I meant.

Not that my input on this has any substance, but that was a nice line. :D

Derby FALs
August 26, 2005, 08:08 PM
We would probably know more than you about gun rights. As the gun nuts here have had our rights attacked and slowly taken away from us for over a decade now. This didn't happen because we sat compliantly and don't fight it tooth and nail, but more so because the anti's outnumbers us something like 50 billion to one.

Or did you draw too many lines in the sand rather than really fight? When they finally take your last gun away where will you be? And what good are the guns you have if you are too afraid to let someone see them?

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 08:08 PM
Is what you are saying a little clearer now?

Sorry honorsdaddy, playing the race card wont work this time. And carrying a gun around is not going to make you black no matter how much you want it to.

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 08:11 PM
And what good are the guns you have if you are too afraid to let someone see them?

If someone sees my gun I will be afraid; just afraid enough to pull the trigger and end their life before they end mine. It will be a big surprise to them I'm sure.

Derby FALs
August 26, 2005, 10:08 PM
Must be a real bitch to slink around like a criminal...

50 Freak
August 26, 2005, 10:13 PM
End of discussion for me. This is pointless and wasting time. See ya all on the other threads.

CARRY'IN
August 26, 2005, 10:22 PM
I am with you.

Derby FALs
August 26, 2005, 11:07 PM
Bye, bye...

Father Knows Best
August 27, 2005, 12:01 AM
50 Freak said: Packing a pistol is fine in the more rural areas, but seriously, packing one down the streets of SF, LA, NY or any other cosmopolitian city will get you a lot of trouble. Try carrying openly down Phoenix, AR or Austin TX (more g-friendly states) and tell me if people will fear you. I'll bet you money you'll spend some time having to explain yourself to the local PD.

First, I assume you meant Phoenix, AZ. If there's a Phoenix in Arkansas, I don't know about it and it sure ain't "cosmopolitan."

Second, I lived in Phoenix in the late 90s. I've been visiting Phoenix regularly since the mid-70s. I can assure you that open carry is common there. It's almost impossible for me to drive through Phoenix without seeing a half dozen guys (and gals!) riding motorcycles with pistols in plain view on their hips. There are gun stores everywhere, and a gun show is being held somewhere in Phoenix purt near every weekend of the year. I worked downtown and routinely saw guys carrying openly when I walked over to the fish taco guy, or the ballpark, or the courthouse.

PCGS65
August 27, 2005, 06:07 PM
Sounds like a perfect example of the coming police state. I would have felt the same way you did but I think you did the right thing. Because yes the police can and will arrest you for anything right or wrong. One of their favorites is obstruction of justice. You know they will lie in court. Your right it would cost you a bundle. Now just to clarify myself I do not hate policemen. I know a few where I live. But there's always a few bad apples.

richyoung
August 28, 2005, 04:03 AM
As for the rest I would guess those items were meant to be kept in an armory and not posessed privately.

Maybe you should quit "guessing" and do some research - if you had done so, you would know that cities, and even private individuals owned cannons, especially on ships. There's even provisions in the Constitution for the issueing of "letters of marque or reprisal", which basically commision a privately owned, and armed, ship to wage war on another nations commerce fleet. When Texas was fighting its war of independence from Mexico, several cannon were provided by cities that didn't need them any more.



Taken on expeditions, yes, not kept in front of the homestead.

Just what do you thinkwas used to blow tree stumps and dig farm ponds? Majic dust?

Alex45ACP
August 28, 2005, 05:13 AM
It doesn't bother me at all when I see people carrying weapons. I wish people did it more often just so people would see that there's nothing wrong with it.

gm
August 28, 2005, 01:05 PM
Everybody knows scaring the sheeple is baaaa..baaaaaaad.

If you enjoyed reading about "JBT's in my neighborhood. Grrr!!!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!