Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber


PDA






9mmhpfan
August 23, 2005, 10:40 PM
I read alot of stuff about how the 147 grain 9mm luger bullets both jhp should be avoided at all costs for self defense use. Why is this? I understand the FBI used this bullet weight in a jhp for issue to it's agents. I have read reviews that have been both full of praise for them as well as full of scorn. Are the 115 or 124 grain jhp's supposed to be the best grain weights for this caliber.

Just curious about this and wondered if anyone here on this forum might know the answer. I think the 9mm luger is a good round for self defense but I seem to be in the minority in that opinion in other shooting forums. I often heard of it refered to as the "euro pellet" but I don't understand all the disdain heaped on this fine round.

I remember a quote from a retired infantry officer of 3 wars in a gun magazine years ago. He said" lots of so called experts who have never heard a shot fired in anger love to give opinions on subjects they know nothing about." One example he gave was the scorn heaped on the 38 Special as a poor manstopper He said " Lots of bad men have been made permantly good by the 38 Special." I agree with him on that and think it applies to the 9mm Luger too.

Is it because it is of european orgin that it gets little respect?

If you enjoyed reading about "Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
pax
August 23, 2005, 10:47 PM
I like the 9mm round. What I have heard is that the heavier, 147-gr. bullet simply doesn't travel fast enough to achieve reliable expansion.

pax

GRB
August 23, 2005, 10:58 PM
It is my understanding that the 147 grain Federal Hydra Shock round was believed by some to be an over penetrator. Certain firearms and tactics instructors shied away from advocating their use on aircraft because of feared overpenetration potential. They instead favored Speer Gold Dot 124 grain Gold Dot JHP +P. I believe this was backed up by testing but, I doubt very much that those particular test results are available to the public.

All the best,
Glenn B

phantomak47
August 23, 2005, 11:13 PM
I know this is going to piss some people off, but go read some ayoob books. He has done a lot of "real world" research with actual shootings. In his findings many experts found that the 147 grain was not effective in downing suspects.

combat handgunnery by massad ayoob, I believe.

Personally I use gold dot 124 grain because the nypd uses it and thats good enough with me. Plus I did some work for a retired nypd officer who had shoot some people in his career and he liked the 124 9mm.

Read, research more more importantly do what makes you happy.

orangeninja
August 23, 2005, 11:21 PM
Of course the 147gr. has also been used by more than a couple of fed agencies, probably due to the penetration capabilities.

Sunray
August 23, 2005, 11:33 PM
"...bullet simply doesn't travel fast enough to achieve reliable expansion..." No pistol bullet will give you 100% reliable expansion. Nor will they "down" a suspect with 100% reliability. Not even the .45ACP.
NIH is the primary reason. That'd be 'Not Invented Here'. Same reason the M-14 was chosen over the FAL.

GRB
August 24, 2005, 12:54 AM
I don't understand, why would the comment about Ayoob upset anyone? I am curious though: In his findings many experts found that the 147 grain was not effective in downing suspects.So what you are saying is that this Ayoob fellow just reiterated what other experts had already found to be so, is that correct? Sort of like certain federal agents, from a certain federal agency, who sort of borrow reports from every other type of federal agent, then rewrite those reports as their own to make to make it look like they did all of the work.

As for the Ayoob thing, do yo know who those other experts are? I would rather read first hand findings than borrowed work.

As to the round not being a good manstopper, overpenetrating rounds are notoriously poor rounds at expansion and, they are poor at delivering their energy within the intended target - in my limited understanding. One of the reasons I understand they can over pentetrate is because they have not expanded properly in the first place.

shield20
August 24, 2005, 01:27 AM
In the late '80s, while everyone was switching to the wondernines, as the number of shootings grew, it was discovered that the standard rounds were a bit...iffy...stopping power-wise. The standard 115s weren't dependable enough so they came up with +p, then the +P+. When these too turned out to be marginal, they 'discovered' the subsonic 147s (originally designed for surpressed SMG) for duty use, and figured the lower speed and extra penetration would make the difference. Well, they weren't all that dependable either - probably due to lack of reliable expansion. With real-world incidents like the Miami/Dade FBI shootout - many were thinking, for good reason, that maybe the 9mm wasn't really such a wonder.

Nowadays, bullet design has helped the 9mm live up to alot of the hype - as expansion and penetration are more reliable and repeatable. [These improvements have helped other calibers too (even if some didn't need it as much!)]. But some, like me - were there when we had to carry it, when it was iffy, when no-one could agree which round (if any) was really effective, and when we couldn't switch fast enough to the .40SW when it came along...we will probably always think - for very good reasons - that bigger is better.

We want a wide deep wound channel - heavy, and wider bullets do it better, without RELYING on bullet deisgn to get it done.

CAnnoneer
August 24, 2005, 01:35 AM
Oh, man, I can see another caliber war brewing. :evil:

These arguments are just not very convincing to me. Let's see, the two largest land armies the world has ever seen were the Nazi Wehrmacht and the Soviet Red Army. What did they use for handguns?

Nazis: P08, PPK, P38
Soviets: Nagant, TT

What were the calibers? Four are 9mm and one is 7.65mm.

Wouldn't they have changed their erroneous ways after finding out the horrible problems with their piddly pee-shooter calibers? After butchering each other for four years and losing over 37 million on both sides combined? :rolleyes:

Hmm, the Soviets switched to Makarov - another 9mm, okay, 9.2mm for you purists. The Germans kept using the P38 named P1 and later switched to other 9mm.

Most armies in the world are 9mm. Are they not concerned about stopping power, killing the enemy, instant incapacitation etc.?

Is bigger better? Yes, most probably. But, why aren't the .40 guys then using .45, and why aren't the .45 guys using .50? How big is big enough? :confused:

Hey, what has been good for most armies in the world, including the two biggest ever, is good enough for me. :D

Let me tell you something. Both the Nazis and the Soviets knew something about killing. And before you say they only used the pistols to shoot prisoners in the back of the head, ask yourselves if you truly believe in that. :D

Boats
August 24, 2005, 02:05 AM
I have two 9mms currently, an XD and a CZ-85B on loan to my father. I normally don't "bash" the 9mm, but I will take this opportunity to reiterate that it is far from replacing my .45ACPs as my primary autoloaders.

The 9mm is widely considered to be unimpressive in pistols firing FMJ. There is no way I'd ever feel comfortable relying on 9mm FMJ for any serious self-defense work, say were one attacked at an informal range while loaded with cheaper ammo.

In JHPs the 9mm has a checkered history. The 115 grain loadings are considered marginal, and anything lighter than that has achieved "snake oil" status. The 124, or midweight rounds up to 135 grains, are charged to at least +p levels to attempt to get the 9mm competitive with the larger bores. Then there is the 147. Oddly, this is the loading I like best. The San Diego PD has been using 147 gr 9mms going on a second decade now. They like the round, and that is good enough for me were a 9mm all I had at hand when the balloon went up.

Then again, the 147 grain round out of a pistol is trying to be something the caliber was not intended to be--heavy and slow. The 9mm was meant to be a lighter bullet going as fast as can be propelled, not to act as a half-weighted .45ACP.

So if the slow and heavy slug is what I want, I reach for the old American warhorse, the 1911A1 in .45ACP

And now a segue into the difference between our Armed Forces and those of continential Europe. Here, pistols have been used in combat since the get go. The Army and militia in the Revolutionary War used their flintlock pistols in CQB and later in the early 1800s the US Navy used them alongside the Marines on the shores of Tripoli. The Colt Patterson was adopted early by the armed services. In every American war since the start, pistols were not just a badge of rank, they were acquired either through official channels or employed as POWs, by anyone who could get ahold of one back in the day.

Of course, the pistol was the badge of the gentleman soldier in Europe, which meant that usually the officers, and maybe the odd sargeant major, would sport a pistol, every other man a rifle or some such. I daresay once again, that most of the Reich's 9mm pistols were used against noncombatants. I would lay money that most of the pistol shots by the USSR during WW2 were against enemies of the state internally, and by political kommissars against their own soldiers not willing to throw their lives away for Papa Joe during the early incompetent stages of the Red Army's campaign.

Perhaps the 9mm as killed alot of people in world combat. The .45ACP has probably put down more people sporting various uniforms over the years and with a lot, lot, fewer behind the ear shots too.

shield20
August 24, 2005, 02:31 AM
Unfortunatly armies, even big ones, don't always make the best decisions. Sheesh the Nazi's and Soviet's primary weapons were still bolt-actions when the US carried the M1. Armies are NOT primarily concerned with stopping power and instant incapacitation - especially in a pistol. They have political concerns, financial concerns, equal oppurtunity concerns, weight of load concerns, design and inventory and manufacturing concerns, and armies also usually see pistols as secondary weapons. I also think the US military knew a few things about killing - and winning - in a few wars too. The .45 was recommended over the 9mm, and it was requested, and tested, and proven IN combat - for a long time.

As to why .40 guys don't use .45 - but we do! Depends on whether ya want to compromise capacity a bit for the bigger caliber. And why buy a 1911 in .40 - no reason to. As far as .45 guys using .50 - nah - just not cost effective. SOO - to answer your question - the .45 is big enough!

KONY
August 24, 2005, 09:19 AM
I like the 9mm round. What I have heard is that the heavier, 147-gr. bullet simply doesn't travel fast enough to achieve reliable expansion.

True. But now that bullet design has improved, modern 147 gr ammo is a fine choice. Winchester RA9T and Remington 147gr Golden Saber are two such good modern choices.

gvass
August 24, 2005, 09:44 AM
"Nazis: P08, PPK, P38
Soviets: Nagant, TT

What were the calibers? Four are 9mm and one is 7.65mm."


Hmm,
What were the calibers?
The Nagant is 7,62 mm Nagant
The TT is 7,62x25 mm TT NOT 9 mm at all.

The Wehrmacht used any possible pistol models what the Waffenamt could get. From Italian Berettas to Hungarian FEGs and Czech CZs. They even used Browning HiPowers, too.

Pistols are unimportant in war.

mete
August 24, 2005, 09:47 AM
You've all missed the history of it ! The 147 was originally designed to have an accurate ,subsonic round for a specific SMG [MP 5 I think], nothing else. Somehow people thought it was the answer to all their prayers,the ideal 9mm !!! Well since it wasn't designed for expansion it didn't [DUH !].So the original ones were poor performers.They have now been redesigned and work OK. Many still feel that the ideal weight for the 9mm is 115-125 grains.

147 Grain
August 24, 2005, 10:10 AM
Speed isn't the issue with the 147-gr. anymore as the old style bullet that didn't expand much has been upgraded by everyone for outstanding performance results.

Look how the 9mm outdoes the 357 Sig in Ranger Talans.

After firing thousands of rounds into testing ballistic media, Winchester's latest Ranger LE Catalog shows the following data on 357 Sig 125-gr. (RA357SIGT) @ 1,350 fps versus 9mm 147-gr. (RA9T) @ 990 fps (page 19):

Gelatin
357Sig 125gr. = 10.9 & .63
9mm: 147-gr. = 13.9 & .65

4-Ply Denim
357Sig 125gr. = 12.1 & .66
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.5 & .66

Heavy Cloth
357Sig 125gr. = 10.7 & .69
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.0 & .66

Wallboard
357Sig 125gr. = 15.4 & .48
9mm: 147-gr. = 15.0 & .67

Plywood
357Sig 125gr. = 12.2 & .66
9mm: 147-gr. = 14.8 & .62

Auto Glass
357Sig 125gr. = 10.3 & .49
9mm: 147-gr. = 10.8 & .52

Summary:

Looks like the easy recoiling 9mm 147-gr. outperforms the hot & fast 125-gr. Sig despite a 360 fps velocity disadvantage.
___________________

Just because a round is louder, recoils plenty more, and has a lot of flash doesn't make it more effective in stopping the BG.

* Shot Placement
* Accurate Rapid Fire
* Bullet Construction / Weight
* Choice of Caliber

BigG
August 24, 2005, 10:16 AM
No matter how you slice it, 9mm is just a second tier cartridge.

I've turned in all mine except a few plinkers like Luger, P38, for white box nostalgia, but any current hardware is 40 or 45 caliber. YMMV JMTC, etc.

Onmilo
August 24, 2005, 10:19 AM
I'm no 'expert' but I love 9mm handguns and don't care for 147 grain bullets because I haven't found a loading that will group better than 4"@25 meters in any of my pistols,,,,,

Captain
August 24, 2005, 10:26 AM
147 grain,

Surely you are joking when you say that a 9-147 is more effective than a 357 Sig (in any bullet weight). You guys amaze me with your gelatin analysis! I would much rather use statistics from real shootings, whether they are one shot stops or not, than use the ballistic gelatin block as an altar to worship at! The 357 Sig is much more powerful than any 9mm on the market....even the +P+ loads.

I think the 9mm is a fine defensive caliber and occasionally carry one or two. The real advantage to the 9 vs whatever other caliber out there, is the capacity of the pistols available, the low recoil making follow up shots easier and faster and the low cost to practice with it.

GunGoBoom
August 24, 2005, 10:49 AM
The 9 is fine! So are 147s. "They'll kill ya but good!".

-Kahr MK9
-CZ PCR 75 Compact
-CZ 85
-Tanfoglio TZ99

Cannoneer, you make a very good point. But "euro pellet" - tee hee.

armoredman
August 24, 2005, 10:50 AM
All I'll say is I have bet my life on almost every pistol caliber out there, including .32, .45, and .40SW. I currently carry a 9mm CZ75 PO1. If I can afford to get a CZ75 40 Compact, I'll carry that, too, but I know exactly where this little high speed pill will go, and with the good ammo, I do not feel underarmed. This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we have so many handguns and ammunition to choose from - so everyone can be happy with thier choice. So, if you carry a 9mm, a 45ACP, a 40SW, a 7.62x25mm, a 9x18mm, or even a lowly .32, become proficient, and use the best ammo you can afford.

hotpig
August 24, 2005, 04:19 PM
Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber



You have to remember it is very common for the "experts" to be ten years behind on their printed articles. They have to write stuff to get paid. It is easy to go back to their old files and alter some past article to sell to another gun rag. ;)

Riktoven
August 24, 2005, 05:26 PM
I'm willing to bet that the vast majorty of "experts", and 99.9% of all people who dismiss the 9mm have never shot anyone or been shot themselves.

9mm IS a wuss.

But guess what, the .45 is a wuss that is .095" larger so you bleed a little faster.

Unfortunately no one bleeds fast enough to instantly stop them, so a central nervous system (CNS) hit is the only quick stop there is and either caliber can reliably penetrate skull. If you can get the CNS shots better with a .45 than a 9mm, carry it. If not, the .45 just gives you more mass to crush bone with and a little more surface area to hit those arteries (more relatively slow bleeding that is still going to let your target pull the trigger).

If it's worth it to you great. If not, the 9mm is still a killer and gives you more and quicker followup shots.

As for bullet wieghts, it doesn't matter a whole lot. I like the 147 gr. Ranger Ts because they work well in my pistol, have super light recoil, and all the scientific tests I've seen show them to be as good or better than anything else. Some people say 115 gr. are too light and don't penetrate, and that 147 grains over penetrate and don't expand. If you want to care about everyone's OPINION on the subject, get 124 or 127gr. rounds and split the difference, but in the end shot placement is 99% of the job.

And to whoever used the term "energy dump" or talked about the bullets "expending all thier energy in the target"...well, you're hopeless so nevermind.

Harold Mayo
August 24, 2005, 05:28 PM
Wow...guys, if you think that only officers in Europe carried pistols, think again. The German army was the most pistol-heavy force in history with almost every soldier being supplied with a handgun.

To think that huge armies with 9mm pistols never used them except to murder people while the good ol' USA used the .45 ACP in combat is ridiculous. A German soldier is just as likely to draw his pistol in combat as an American one...MORE likely, really, since by someone's own realization they were using bolt rifles rather than semi-auto.

Guys, if you want to know how well handgun rounds perform, get with local farmers (if you live anywhere near any) and volunteer to put down sick animals for them OR go and hunt wild hogs with handguns. You'll "get" two facts relatively quickly:

1. All handgun rounds are equally worthless
2. Shot placement counts for more than caliber, be it big and slow or small and fast

senior
August 24, 2005, 06:03 PM
dont wish to get into a heated arguement, but, i cant help but wonder how many of these so called "experts" on which is the better round to drop a BG have in actuality zaped anyone and instantly become authorities on the subject? I NEVER used pistols in combat that often, to claim that my word is wisdom, however, i have seen a share of bodies with 9mm, 38, 45, etc holes in them, true, 45's will put a wicked hole in the human body compared to a 9, but, from obervations, i've never seen any difference in "dead," from their wounds, they all seem to be just as dead, dead!! Also NEVER seen a man stand and laugh when confronted with any gun, regardless of caliber

Opeybarr68
August 24, 2005, 06:13 PM
A military does not use a round bases on it's ability to kill instantly or it's preceved stopping power. A military uses a round that meets a variety of needs. The main objective is to take the enemy out of the fight. That doesn't always mean instant death. The next thing to consider is weight. A soldier humping through the hills needs to be able to carry enough ammo to accomplish his objective. Yet another consideration is reliability. The weapon using the rounds chosen must fire under ungodly conditions. Yet one more factor to figure is cost. A military has a budget and must meet all of the above criteria with out breaking the bank. The last thing to investigate is that the military must find a manufacturer that will produce a weapon in a desired cailber at the lowest price possible. No one caliber is perfect for all conditions listed so through compromise one is selected. These are some of the reasons some militarys have chosen to use the 9mm both in the past and present.
makes sense to me..

WT
August 24, 2005, 07:33 PM
mete - that is my understanding. The 147 gr subsonic 9mm was developed for a specific military unit for one application - to shoot enemy sentries in the head using a supressed weapon. They needed a quiet and accurate round to do so.

It was not meant for widespread use and torso shots.

Some police dept. saw that the military was using the round and felt it must have been the greatest thing since sliced bread. They adopted it and it went downhill from there.

That is ancient history and a lot of changes have been made to this round.

Someplace on the www is a write-up dealing with the history of this misunderstood round.

agtman
August 24, 2005, 09:00 PM
"Why do 'experts' not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber?"

Well, as to the 147gn JHP load specifically, just a guess, ... but do you think its nickname, "the widow-maker" indicates why? :what:

As to the 9mm generally, ... hmmmm, let's see :scrutiny: ...

... how 'bout an iffy historical record* for instant incapacitation when used against armed assailants (i.e., a high failure-to-stop rate).








* Sorry, but appealing to "plentiful" European data which includes the roadside execution of dissidents, prisoners and refugees doesn't count as evidence of the 9mm's "stopping power." This is the U.S.A., where credible data on terminal ballistics is based on stand-up fights. :neener:

GRB
August 24, 2005, 09:40 PM
Riktoven,

I'm willing to bet that the vast majorty of "experts", and 99.9% of all people who dismiss the 9mm have never shot anyone or been shot themselves.You would guess wrong in my case but then I do not dismiss the 9mm; I just know there are more effective rounds and I know that among 9mm their are more effective bullet weights than 147 grains if specifically talking about Federal 147 grain Hydra Shock JHP. Heck, I do not even dsmiss the .25 Auto or .22 Short. I wonder though, do you carry a .25 Auto or .32 Auto or .380 for primary carry? If not why not? I mean you said it is 99% bullet placement. If so why bother carrying a 9mm as opposed to a .25 Auto, .32 auto or .380? I think any logical answer you give can go the same way for the 9mm when compared to rounds like the .40S&W or .45 Auto but I am interested in what you have to say.

Best regards,
Glenn B.

9mmhpfan
August 24, 2005, 10:24 PM
I hope I did not start a caliber war when I posted this, I was just curious about why people disdained the the 9mm luger in general and 147 grain in particular. I really appericate the feed back on my question and look forward to learning more from you folks.

147 Grain
August 24, 2005, 10:49 PM
9mm 147-gr. load opinions boil down to two groups of shooters:

1. The old school folks who have outdated / 10 year old bullet performance in mind.

2. The new school folks who are amazed at how far 147-gr. loads have come and currently perform today.

The top 9mm 147-gr. loads have been enhanced to the point where they outperform the average 40 S&W load out there (with some 180-gr. being the exception).

Example of the top two 9mm SD loads:

* Double Tap's 147-gr. +P Gold Dot load is under SAMMI specs (only 200 psi over standard ammo) and yet it achieves 1,135 fps in a Glock 17, using specially blended cooler burning powders not commercially available.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=121

* Winchester Ranger T (Talans) in 147-gr. +P at 990 fps (Glock 19 - 4" pipe) consistently achieve around 15" penetration and almost 3/4" expansion in clothed gelatin tests. This load also outperforms many 357 Sig and 45 Auto loads as well, but not all.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=419125&goto=newpost

Time to get with the times! Out with the old technology and in with the new! :rolleyes:

shield20
August 25, 2005, 01:03 AM
I like those numbers - esp. the Double Taps. If I carried a 9mm, would check them out - although I was leaning towardfs the 124s.

When you say these rounds "out perform" other ammo - what do you mean?

Alot of the info I see shows the .40 and .45 have simliar penetration, with wider expansion (esp. the .45). I have also seen some issues with the Ranger round - seperation and lack of expansion thru denim.

147 Grain
August 25, 2005, 01:31 AM
Double Tap has several other 9mm loads to choose from. Their 124-gr. Gold Dot hits the road at 1,310 fps in a Glock 17.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=120

115-gr. Gold Dot = 1,415 fps

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=119

147-gr. Gold Dot = 1,135 fps

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=121

shield20
August 25, 2005, 02:17 AM
I gave their 230s .45 a try - not bad - a little stout in my lightweight Commander, but should be OK in a full-size. I imagine these rounds would have a simliar effect on a smaller 9mm - more recoil, and is it necessary?

I would like to see some terminal numbers though - too much velocity on a bullet not designed for it can limit the penetration (which is why the extra fps in 147 may be attractive).

147 Grain
August 25, 2005, 02:43 AM
How does 15.25" of penetration and .95" expansion for the Double Tap 230-gr. you tried?

Steve

P.S. Shorter barreled 45's can benefit from heavier recoil springs for $7.50 at Double Tap.

147 Grain
August 25, 2005, 02:45 AM
Penetration Tests of all Double Tap loads, except the 9mm's which were just released 8/15/05 (Mike McNett of Double Tap can get you the 9mm figures):

Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"


DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"


DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"


DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"


http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336612

DAVE RICHARDS
August 25, 2005, 04:40 AM
I didn't read all the replies in this thread so if I am repeating data that's already been covered excuse me. The 147 gr. bullet became popular after the F.B.I. decided the Miami Massacre was the result of a 9mm 115gr. Silvertip underpenetrating as a result failing to stop the scumbag Mr. Platt. They decided as a result of this to go to the 10mm. When problems were encountered with the S&W 10mm auto's they switched to Sigs firing 9mm bullets. They felt the 147 gr. bullets were the way to go to get sufficient penetration. The early 9mm round of choice was the 147 gr. Winchester OTM (open tipped match) round. It was designed to be fired in suppressed MP5's. Since bullets had to travel below the speed of sound to be as quiet as possible they experimented with different rounds. The 115gr. and 124gr. bullets lost alot of performance when dropped below 1000 f.p.s.. They went with the heavier bullet to still get good penetration because of the bullets mass helpe to make up for the lost speed. Plus the rounds were very accurate in the MP5's. They were not a good design for handguns. Because of bad designat the time most jhp's had to move over 1000 f.p.s. to have any chance of expanding. Thus they tended to not expand well from handguns. Well because of the F.B.I. protocol that was developed to give some useable measure of bullet performance we have far better designs. Each bullet weight is optimized for it's weight and speed. According to Winchesters own data their 147gr. Ranger round outsells their 127 grain round in law enforcement. By both testing and street experience the 147 gr. Winchester Ranger is considered to be the most effetive 9mm load made. Although I respect much of Mr. Ayoobs teachings his data regarding the best new 147gr. 9mm loads is just plain wrong. He did a report awhile back on a large West Coast police agency that uses the 92F Beretta with the Winchester Ranger 147gr. load. They are delighted with it's performance. Since it did not fit his theories he made a lame exuse to the effect that the long barreled Berettas probably gave the bullet enough velocity to reliably expand. It is not velocity. It is bullet design. Winchesters 127 gr. +p+ round is also very effective. But from both the real world and accepted testing it does not penetrate as deep or expand any better than the 147gr. version. Their are still those that believe that higher energy figures make for a more effective pistol round. Their is a threshold where this is true. From .38 Special in a short barreled revolver what little energy you get fro them must be maximized. The .38 Special now has a couple of bright spots from good bullet design for short barrels. But the .22, .25, .32, and .380 just don't have enough energy to get both deep penetration and good expansion. From .38 Special in a 4" barrel on up good performance in many different handgun bullet weights and speeds may now be accomplished. New 147gr. 9mm rounds like the Ranger, Gold Dot, and Golden Saber rounds give as good a performance as the high velocity middle weights and better performance than almost all the 115 gr. bullets. Wihout the added recoil and wear and tear on your gun. Their is even a joke among many LEO's that refer to the 147gr. rounds as "West Coast bullets" in reference to Mr. Ayoobs claims. Since according to him they only seem to work there. I don't know why he hlds so tightly to the 115 gr. +P+ rounds. Some do work obviusly. But you still get better all around performance from the middle and heavy weight bullets.

berettashotgun
August 25, 2005, 08:29 AM
I'm STILL missing the 357 in a 4'' as the pole sitter. AND you can actually get decent shot placement with a revolver; which I know most of you fellas probably loathe. Anyways, I'm in the shot placement camp- I often actually carry a 950bs in 22 SHORT!!! It's the long barreled version, looks like a mini luger, and I can actually hit a 1" circle at 5 feet very quickly. It'll work, oh yeah- Sandy has the P-12 in 45 (concealed)or the Glock 17 (on her duty belt), a BADGE often is a great weapon, and has tremendous penetration capabilities. :rolleyes:

CAS700850
August 25, 2005, 11:12 AM
Back in teh erly 1980's, when my interest in handguns took-off, I read every gun magazine I could get my hands on. THe big experrts favored the 1911 in .45, with the Sig 220 being called the best DA auto in their opinions. They favored the .45 because even in ball form, it was bigger than a 9mm which, as they described it, was unreliable in terms of expansion. The real battle was between the .45 and teh .357 magnum for "king o fthe hill" title. That was fun reading, especially since it mixed a caliber was and the revolver vs. auto battle, all in one blow-out.

Here we are, some 20 years later, and much has changed. The auto is undeniably the majority's weapon of choice for combat use. The caliber war still continues, but the field of ammunition making has leveled the field somewhat. The 9mm round has been redesigned to expand more reliably out of the shorter barrels of the CCW pieces.

So, in a nutshell, what you have among many people is a hold-over prejudice against the 9mm, and especially the 147 grn. JHP, from incidents 20 years ago. It's an apples and oranges thing.

Serpico
August 25, 2005, 11:25 AM
We use the Ranger 147 in the LASD....seems to work okay for us...and the LAPD...and San Diego....expands quite nicely too...and not just from our 92fs but our shorter barreled off duty guns.....Masaad who?

Riktoven
August 25, 2005, 11:41 AM
Quote

You would guess wrong in my case but then I do not dismiss the 9mm; I just know there are more effective rounds and I know that among 9mm their are more effective bullet weights than 147 grains if specifically talking about Federal 147 grain Hydra Shock JHP. Heck, I do not even dsmiss the .25 Auto or .22 Short. I wonder though, do you carry a .25 Auto or .32 Auto or .380 for primary carry? If not why not? I mean you said it is 99% bullet placement. If so why bother carrying a 9mm as opposed to a .25 Auto, .32 auto or .380? I think any logical answer you give can go the same way for the 9mm when compared to rounds like the .40S&W or .45 Auto but I am interested in what you have to say.

Best regards,
Glenn B.

-------------------------------------------------------

I don't go smaller than 9mm for three reasons.

1.) Rimmed cartridges in an autoloader are a no no.
2.) No one makes a .380 that holds 16+1 rounds.
3.) No one has spent millions designing reliable bullets for anything under 9mm

I carry a P99 every day.

halvey
August 25, 2005, 12:11 PM
Of course you could go try some of these tests yourself. But that'd be work. It's just easier to argue about it. :scrutiny:

147 Grain
August 25, 2005, 12:51 PM
Dave Richards:

Thanks a million!!! for the 147-gr. overview. :) It's one reason that contributed to my username's selection!

shield20
August 25, 2005, 12:56 PM
147 -

THANKS! I appreciate the posting on the Double Tap terminal numbers! Wow - those .45 (and 10mm) expansion values are incredible!

ABBOBERG
August 25, 2005, 01:13 PM
I think that Winchester's 9mm vs .357 Sig gelatine test is misleading. We can clearly see that the 9mm penetrates deeper and expands at least as well as the .357 Sig, but what we can't see from the data is the wound cavity diameter or volume. If we could see those gelatin samples I am sure that the .357 Sig would show much more trauma. The extra kinetic energy has to go somewhere....

Riktoven
August 25, 2005, 01:37 PM
I think that Winchester's 9mm vs .357 Sig gelatine test is misleading. We can clearly see that the 9mm penetrates deeper and expands at least as well as the .357 Sig, but what we can't see from the data is the wound cavity diameter or volume. If we could see those gelatin samples I am sure that the .357 Sig would show much more trauma. The extra kinetic energy has to go somewhere....

---------------------------------------------------------------

Heat, light and radiation are all energies that can cause death, so it's easy to get hung up on energy.

Kinetic energy by nature though doesn't kill, it simply is. A mass with significant kinetic energy can cause a fatal wound, but the kinetic energy itself isn't the wounding mechanism. The wounding mechanism is the destruction of living tissue.

I'm not saying energy isn't important at all, because if the bullet doesn't have enough it won't even break the skin let alone penetrate muscle and bone. Also that energy is used to expand the bullet. Modern bullet design however allows the bullets to expand reliably with less energy, especially in 9mm where reasearch has been far more extensive.

More is always better in my book. 147gr. is better than 115gr. 230gr. (.45) is better than 147gr. (9mm). I don't carry a .45 because I consider myself to be a good shooter, and don't plan on missing the double tap. Two 9mms are better than 1 .45 by my math, and as long as the 10rnd G30 is the closest thing to a high capacity .45 I can conceal, I'm sticking to the 9.

DAVE RICHARDS
August 25, 2005, 02:03 PM
Soft tissue is very elastic. The temporary stretch cavity producd by handgun bullets is simply not enough to push most tissue beyond it's elastic limits. In other words almost as soon as the hangun bullet passes throuh tissue it snaps back to roughly the size of the projectile that has just passed through it. Usually a fast, light, high energy rounds main advantage over a bigger round is a flatter trajectory than a larger, slower, bullet over a longer distances. This might be of some advantage to someone in a rural setting. But then as in most instances you are better off going to a rifle for longer ranges (and shorter for that matter). What some seem to be missing here is that the 124 gr. .357 Sig round for instance is still designed to meet the F.B.I. protocol. The bullet is designed to mushroom and penetrate at the higher velocities. The 147 gr. 9mm Gold Dot is designed to meet this same criteria at it's lower velocity. Thicker jacket, wider hollowpoints, and so on depending on the bullet. Again those that treat gunshot wounds report in the major service calibers they can see no great difference between 9mm, .45 or whatever. They usually don't know what round someone has been hit with until the bullet has been removed. An exception are the very small calibers and their small entrance wounds. These wounds are so small the skin will sometimes close around the entrance wound making the bullet very hard to find. Even some of the gun rag writers are finally accepting these facts. I may believe lighter, faster handgun bullets with high energy ratings are better. I may also believe the world to be flat as many did hundreds of years ago. But as we grew in our knowledge we learned better. But their still is a Flat Earth Society.

rde
August 25, 2005, 10:13 PM
Well, I like the 147 grainers. But I am no ballistic data expert. Nor did I sleep at...last night. I like them simply because all of my 9mm hand guns shoot 147 grainers very accurately. In other bullet weights there are distinct differences in accuracy between hand gun, bullet weight, and specific ammo. For some reason 147 grain 9mm ammo shoot consistently well in all of them (including the cost effective Winchester White Box) whereas others do not. It is just that simple for me.

Ky Larry
August 25, 2005, 10:51 PM
Last month, Wally World was had a lot of their WWB 9mm ammo on clearance,(115gr WinClean,147gr TCMC) for $5.00 for 50 rnd box. I bought several boxes of WWB 147 gr JHP's (USA9JHP2) that had been mismarked. My CZ's really like this ammo; very accurate and reliable. I have no idea how this ammo expands but I wouldn't hesitate to carry it for self defense. Any comments or experience with this load?

denfoote
August 26, 2005, 07:46 AM
Let me tell you something. Both the Nazis and the Soviets knew something about killing. And before you say they only used the pistols to shoot prisoners in the back of the head, ask yourselves if you truly believe in that.

If the 9mm was good enough for Adolf Hitler, then it ought to be good enough for you!!! :rolleyes: :banghead:

Delmar
August 26, 2005, 08:25 AM
"Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber"

Just remember that "ex" is a has-been, and "spurt" is a drip under presssure!

I have but one 9MM in a Beretta Vertec, and I do wish it was accurate with the 147 grain loads. However, this has not proved to be the case with my particular weapon. It runs along really happy with 155-124-125 grain handloads near max, so thats what I run. Can't kill what you can't hit I guess.

Commissar Gribb
August 26, 2005, 09:14 AM
9 times out of 10, a 9mm will be more effective than being unarmed ;)

CAnnoneer
August 26, 2005, 11:35 AM
If the 9mm was good enough for Adolf Hitler, then it ought to be good enough for you!!!

What does Adolf Hitler personally have to do with the 9mm anyway? :confused:

Finding the Nazis politically/ethically repugnant should not cloud your judgment about the quality of their weapons tech or their military competence. For a nation, society, and ideology obsessed with perfection and efficiency, they would be very much out of character to design and use inferior weapons.

I still find it very difficult to see the root of the hatred some have for the 9mm. You don't like it, don't use it. Why bend out of shape trying to convince everybody that the 9mm is "worthless", "substandard", "overhyped", "undeserving" etc. ? Do you doubt your own choices on the ground of popularity contests? Do you envy the inexpensive ammo? The higher capacity? The lower recoil? The faster reacquire and followup? There must be a reason for this emotional reaction. :neener:

:D

m39fan
August 26, 2005, 12:33 PM
Getting back to the original question, I noticed something odd last month at our bowling pin shoot. Last year I used 115gr. FMJ made by Federal (Gov't overruns) and had no problems knocking the pins off the table. Surprised everyone there who had just finished saying a 9mm wouldn't work. This year, same gun with "HOT" ammo wouldn't reliably knock pins down let alone off. This was with my carry ammo (Winchester Ranger 147gr. "T") which were loads intended for law enforcement!!! :eek: Needless to say, I started carrying other ammo!!

Take it for what it's worth.

Take Care,
Mike

147 Grain
August 26, 2005, 12:47 PM
The Ranger T's in 147-gr. are not very hot, but do achieve 990 fps in a 4" barrel. In comparison, standard pressure Speer Gold Dots in 124-gr. have more recoil.

In Pin Shooting, heavier / slower bullets work the best.

Example of the top three 9mm SD loads:

* Double Tap's 147-gr. +P Gold Dot load is under SAMMI specs (only 200 psi over standard ammo) and yet it achieves 1,135 fps in a Glock 17, using specially blended cooler burning powders not commercially available.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=121

* Winchester Ranger T (Talans) in 147-gr. +P at 990 fps (Glock 19) consistently achieve about 15" penetration and almost 3/4" expansion in clothed gelatin tests. This load also outperforms many 357 Sig and 45 Auto loads as well, but not all.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=419125&goto=newpost

* Golden Saber 147-gr.

Nothin' else out there on the market beats the top 3 as far as self defense is concerned. For Bowling Pins, it's another story! :p

Steve

P.S. Stick with the Rangers for self defense and it's unwise to compare them to bowling ball performance in making good decisions.

kbr80
August 26, 2005, 12:51 PM
I carry 147 rangers in my beretta and p99. I do not feel unarmed. A well placed 147gr will give you DRT results. You just have to do your part, then the gun will do its part.

m39fan
August 26, 2005, 01:28 PM
It's interesting Steve, that you say for bowling pins , heavy and slow is what's needed! I WON with 115gr. FMJ, LOST with the 147gr. R9T's. I never said that bowling pins were a good test media, just found it interesting. The ME is a friend of mine, maybe I'll ask what (if anything) he's seen with the 147gr. T's. If I find anything I'll get back to you guys.

Take Care,
Mike

carebear
August 26, 2005, 03:57 PM
Would it be possible to load the Speer 135 gr. .38 bullet into a 9mm case?

I wouldn't think OAL would be a problem vice the 147's. Would the .002 diam increase create pressure problems?

Not a reloader, but wouldn't that give us a well-designed hollowpoint in a "heavy" bullet weight for 9mm that could be pumped out a little faster at the same pressures than the 147?

Delmar
August 26, 2005, 04:22 PM
I don't know that I would try loading a 38 cal bullet in a 9, Carebear. It would really depend on the individual weapon, and I would recommend you slug the barrel first. Some of the older 9MM's actually could take a .358 cal jacketed bullet, but I think you are asking for trouble if you don't take the necessary precautions.

Island Beretta
August 26, 2005, 05:29 PM
with the number of fatal injuries the 9mm has inflicted, I am sure glad it isn't anymore lethal.. :barf:

carebear
August 26, 2005, 11:11 PM
Thanks Delmar,

Not being a reloader it's hard for me to internalize thousanths of an inch being that significant. "know" its important versus KNOW, if you get my drift.

GunGoBoom
August 26, 2005, 11:45 PM
If Taurus actually comes out with their triad guns, then you could load .357/.358 bullets into a 9mm, no problem. That would be pretty cool actually, to have a semi-jacketed lead hollowpoint 158 gr .38 special bullet in a hot 9mm load/case, used with moon clips. I like. :evil:

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=TRIAD-627SS&category=Revolver
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=TRIAD-627B&category=Revolver

blackpanther
August 28, 2005, 08:51 PM
:neener: You won't be allowed to shoot long but the 115 gr Federal 9BPLE 9mm +P+ will literally turn a pin in to saw dust. As far as the 147 gr stuff,it better be a very close fight unless you get a barrel with a different twist rate.

Ed

RecoilRob
August 28, 2005, 09:43 PM
"Experts" look at data to try to figure out what is best. Unfortunately, the 'data' is hard to assimilate without a firm grasp on what is going on here.

Most people who need shot will stop when they are shot at or hit. Something like 90% fall into this category. So, a bullet that gets their attention with a less than CNS hit will look better in the 'stats'.

But, those 10%ers need to be shut down and only a very deep penetrating bullet in the right place will do that job. The 'stats' may NOT include ANY shootings of these hardcore types but they MUST be kept on the table when choosing ammo.

Jello tests will show a comparison of expansion vs. penetration and the wise person will choose the deeper penetrating round with the "10%er" in mind.

sarge48
August 29, 2005, 06:10 PM
Much to do about nothing. Put the pill where it needs to go and don't worry about what caliber you are shooting. I carry 147 grain hydrashocks daily at work. They work, and they are accurate. Let it go. :rolleyes:

JERRY
August 29, 2005, 09:10 PM
so, some "expert" says the 147gr. 9mm isnt a top performer?


go ask the San Diego P.D. how they like it. theyve logged numerous shooting with the 147gr. 9mm, they are very happy with it.

not sure of the exact loading they use, but their "experts" are backed up by real world shootings of bad guys, not old data from sub-gun loads used in pistols.......

look at the paper numbers for starts, it penetrates deeper and better than the .357sig, it expands just as well as the .357sig, it kicks a lot less than the .357sig (allowing better shot placement in rapid fire...)

now add that to a prooven street record with no fuzzy math for o.s.s. and its a top performer.

anyone know exactly what loading S.D.P.D. uses?

Snowman92D
August 29, 2005, 09:41 PM
San Diego (City) PD has a new chief who finally okayed their guys carrying other calibers besides 9mm. Interesting that a substantial number of their officers have opted to get rid of the 9mm caliber that they were saddled with for so long and carry a more powerful caliber.

The previous admin people at SDPD bragged about the high percentage of people who "died' as a result of being shot by their officers using first-generation 147-grain 9mm jhp's...as though that meant something. Trouble is, a perp can do a lot of mischief between the time he's shot by the police and the time he actually succumbs to the wound and goes down. That fact that he was "killed" by their 147-grain 9's isn't the issue, it's the fact that very often perps weren't adequately "stopped" by those loads. The newer, better-engineered 147-grain loads are more effective, thankfully. A lot of officers aren't committed shooters and a soft-recoiling service load is a good idea for them.

The SDPD uses Federal "HST" ammo in all the calibers that they authorize for duty-related use. It out-performed the Ranger-T in their dept ammo tests.

funbobby522
July 3, 2008, 03:37 PM
The Canadians did some research on this for various 9mm rounds shooting into ballistics gel through cloth and bone at both 3M and 50M. Here is a link to that data so you can make up your mind on the 9mm 147 JHP for yourself: http://www.cprc.org/tr/tr-1995-01.pdf

BTW - ALL 147 JHP rounds tested expanded reliably with excellent penetration.

Personally, I don't see a downside and I carry Speer GDHP LE 147 rounds.

stormyone
July 3, 2008, 09:58 PM
Thread is 3 years old

FEG
July 3, 2008, 10:12 PM
I am not an expert. My cousin is married to a pathologist. That's my only "inside" or "expert" information.

My understanding is that newer hollowpoints are not as dependent on velocity, as evidenced by some of the gelatin testing.

My cousin's husband is basically of the opinion that you cannot really tell from terminal effect. As one of the earlier posts mentioned, the various service cartridges make similar wounds to the naked eye. My cousin's husband explains it like this. For example, they find a lump of lead/jacketing. Then they weigh it, measure the entrance/exit wounds, and guess it is a .355-357" cartridge, or whatever. Usually, you can't tell whether it is a 9mm, .38. or .357 in that example, assuming you are even that certain. Specific findings are usually dependent on ballistics. Sometimes it's pretty obvious it is a .38, since only lead is recovered (again, using this example).

He carries a 9mm with 124 gr +P or the Winchester 127 gr +P+ loadings. Now, so do I. His idea is that the 147 gr. loadings are good on paper, but they don't offer much insurance in extra velocity. He calims that their lab finds too many JHPs "plugged" with fat, subcutaneous tissue, clothing, or bizzare debris (like glass and steel fragments from a bag of groceries).

Just passing along my reasoning...



EDIT: The groceries thing is actually kind of interesting. A woman was shot with a stray 9mm bullet, but it passed through a bag of groceries first. She didn't die, so this is all hearsay (he is a pathologist, not a surgeon). The bullet hit something in a glass bottle, and began to expand. Apparently the partially expanded bullet continued to travel at relatively high speed, but it began to yaw wide right. It punched through a can and hit the victim's stomach. Apparently, this caused a really large, nasty, but superficial wound. According to this story, the ER surgeon recovered glass, steel, and groceries from the wound; the bullet was plugged with steel from the can. This was in Philadelphia a few years ago, if anyone can find a reference.

CZF
July 3, 2008, 10:59 PM
The ONLY 147 that I trust or carry is the Double Tap load.
It offers both higher velocity and advanced bullet technology
over the older loads like the Hydra.

You can talk up the Ranger load, but I'm still not impressed, just too slow.

bluetopper
July 3, 2008, 11:26 PM
Isn't the 9mm 147 gr cast lead bullet the best for match grade accuracy however?

jonmerritt
July 4, 2008, 12:30 AM
Strange, I have had 9 mm rounds drop an enemy with 1 shot, others take several shots. I have experianced this with even larger calibers, and with various weapons. I have seen a 22lr put man down instantly at 100 yrds. There is not a magic caliber or weight. Just be very proficiant with what you use.

BlindJustice
July 4, 2008, 01:35 AM
I'll keep reading after plowing through Page 1.

Here's where I stand

S&W 1911 5" Bbl Stainless Steel
Load: Speer 230 gr. GD JHP
I also have been shooting some
Hornady 200 gr. XTP JHP - quicker repeats
S&W 625 5" Bbl. - Hogue checkered Full Profile Rosewood

<Drum roll>

CZ 75B 9x19 aka Luger aka Parabellum
DA or SA Cocked & Locked

This Czech Republic service pistol was tested by
Jeff Cooper for G&A and he pronounced it the best High
Capacity 9MM he had tested to date, but called the Double
Action first shot option un-needed.

The one thing the german WWII service pistols, the
P-08 and P-38 had the same mag. cpacity as the big bore
.45 ACP.

Ok, for the record I am buying up some SPeer GD JHPs 124 gr.
but even though I'm only 25 miles from the factory in
Lewiston it's spendy ammo. So, I'm buying some Win. 147 gr.
JHPs for the backup CZ 75B HD/SD option

I have .357 Mag Revolvers in - aheam different rooms
or drawers.... Visited an ex-Special FOrces and he told me
as I would be an overnight guest, if you find a weapon
it IS loaded.

Roger That looking for a spatual for the scrambled eggs and
running across a Mauser MsC heh

I'll get around to .40 S&W and 10MM AUto in a S&W 610

Randall

woodsja
July 4, 2008, 02:03 AM
Does Speer have a factory store or maybe local shops charge less for it? I go to Clarkston all the time cause of the Costco and had no idea Speer was factoried there...

scurtis_34471
July 4, 2008, 02:07 AM
I generally stick with 115 gr if the barrel is less than 4" and 124 gr if it is 4" or longer.

DawgFvr
July 4, 2008, 02:41 AM
Me too scurtis...but make it 115 Grain Corbon DPX + P

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%209mm%20115.htm

In the high compression 9mm, I want extreme velocity, consistent expansion, accuracy and most importantly, feed reliability. I'll leave the large and slow to my .45 ACP.

Kayback
July 4, 2008, 04:21 AM
Only one outraged cry of Necropost and then the topic sails on?

Personally I arry a 9x19mm, it's what I've been trained with. I used to carry a .45ACP, but the smaller, lighter and just as easy to shoot yet easy to conceal 9x19mm which the goverment paid for me to learn to use, made me switch.

Personally I go for the 124 ish grain high velocity rounds. Why? If I want heavy I'll carry my 1911 with 185grain +p's.

The advantage the 9x19mm has is capacity and velocity. I'll take as much of both as I can get if I'm carrying one thanks.

PS I have no scientific reason, only I can shoot 124 grains well.

KBK

.357 magnum
July 4, 2008, 09:57 AM
Bullet technology has improved a lot. There are several absolutely Great 147gr stoppers. Personally I favor the Federal Tactical LE HST 147gr, the Federal Tactical LE HST 147gr +P and the Winchester 147gr Bonded LE. These rounds would definitely get the job done:evil: Also you cannot ignore Speer LE 147gr. The Federal 147gr +P with the increased velocity is my favorite.

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing.aspx

http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/default.aspx


Everyone have a Safe and Happy Independence Day!
The Best to All!

Frank

swordsman2000
July 11, 2008, 02:30 PM
9mmfan

through all the posts here, you got your answer

some American men are slaves to their ego:banghead:...they would have you believe that the .45 they carry is a handheld shotgun while your 9 is a slingshot

1-shot-stops are for hollywood (unless you hit the head/cns)...and you can do that with a .32...but even recently i've seen posts where some guys still think a .45 will knock someone over:confused:

"uhg..me big man..me control big gun recoil"

great for you !...but if we had laser guns with no recoil, would you still feel underpowered because it didn't "kick"

thegoodfight
July 11, 2008, 04:37 PM
old thread is old

BlindJustice
July 11, 2008, 04:54 PM
With the bullet makers improving JHPs - seems we have a new gen.
every 5 or so years, the JHP Du Jour trades places amongst
manufactureres.

Would the 147 gr. JHPs be static since they first came out ?

That was rhetorical.

I have a CZ 75B with about 500 rds of an assortment of FMJ
& JHPs - I'm happy with the WIn. 147 gr. JHPs from Wal Mart as
they are quieter, and easier to shoot but then the 9mm is a secondary
HD/SD option for me. I prefer the 1911 .45 ACP with 200 gr. JHPs

Use what you can shoot best

Randall

kmbrman
July 11, 2008, 06:19 PM
All the guys still lost in the old Miami shootout days are the same . They haven't read modern performance test on the latest loads in the 147JHPs . Some of them have better penetration and expand just as large or larger than the 124 and115 JHPs. in Plus P or Plus P+ rounds.

Matt-J2
July 11, 2008, 07:21 PM
It is my opinion that most 'experts' like what they are paid to like, and usually nothing more.

Gun Slinger
July 13, 2008, 02:28 PM
I think that far too much is made of the alleged "issues" that the 9mm 147 gr. JHP is purported to have had. At the risk engaging in cliche', put the bullet where it needs to go and keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

"Way back" in 1991, when these "issues" were at their height, in an article in the Journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association (Winter, 1991), Eugene J. Wolberg, the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory's Senior Firearms Criminalogist, presented the data collected from 28 human autopsies that involved shootings using the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP and presented evidence supporting a strong correlation with results obtained by testing this ammunition in calibrated ordinance (Knox) gelatin.

I have provided the documentary link below:

http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/winchester_9mm.pdf

The statistical averages for expansion, retained weight and penetration depths were neither calculated nor provided for the entire sample (n=28) in the article so I determined them and have provided them below:

Average Expansion: .54064" (1.5251x caliber)
Average Retained Weight: 139.107 gr. (~94.631%)
Average Depth of Penetration: 13.17857"

Given the "average" performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP in that it appears to expand regularly to 1.5x caliber and retain ~95% of its weight while penetrating 13+ inches in actual shootings (not calibrated gelatin), I'd have to say that it is excellent CCW/SD ammunition considering it's "Economy Value" status and is a bargain, IMNSHO. :D

I would add that it matches closely, another premium SD round that I hold in very high regard, the Hornady 147 gr. XTP "CQ" JHP, (it is my "carry ammunition" in my Glock 17) which also expands to ~1.5x caliber, penetrates 14+ inches and retains ~95-99% of its weight.

Sufficiently impressed, I have laid in a rather "healthy supply" of the Winchester USA 9mm 147 gr. JHP as my secondary, "go-to" CCW/SD ammunition in light of it's similar performance to my favorite CCW/SD ammunition, the Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP.

Phil DeGraves
July 14, 2008, 01:58 PM
The 147grn 9mm behaves only slightly better than the 158 grn RNL 38 spl, which isn't a good stopper. Often, the hollowpoint cavity will fill up with material that the bullet passes through first and basically becomes a non expanding projectile. Of course, one may well wonder if any bullet configuration is going to be a good stopper if you don't get good hits. I remember someone telling me once that the FBI shootout in Miami would have gone better if the agents had been armed with FMJs instead of silvertips because the FMJs would have penetrated all the way to the heart whereas the slivertips expansion did not.
As far as the military guys bad mouthing the .38 special, remember the military version of the .38 spl is an anemic 130 grn FMJ with very poor wounding characteristics. It's about the worst possible .38 spl for self defense.

Wolfman_556
July 14, 2008, 04:36 PM
I live out in the country, and I have made one shot kills on wild dogs using 9mm.

Gun Slinger
July 14, 2008, 04:53 PM
The 147grn 9mm behaves only slightly better than the 158 grn RNL 38 spl, which isn't a good stopper. Often, the hollowpoint cavity will fill up with material that the bullet passes through first and basically becomes a non expanding projectile. Of course, one may well wonder if any bullet configuration is going to be a good stopper if you don't get good hits. I remember someone telling me once that the FBI shootout in Miami would have gone better if the agents had been armed with FMJs instead of silvertips because the FMJs would have penetrated all the way to the heart whereas the slivertips expansion did not.
As far as the military guys bad mouthing the .38 special, remember the military version of the .38 spl is an anemic 130 grn FMJ with very poor wounding characteristics. It's about the worst possible .38 spl for self defense.

Well, Phil, it would seem that there are at least 28 folks formerly of the greater Metropolitan San Diego area that would disagree with you on that very premise, (marked in bold above) if not for the fact that they have shuffled off this "mortal coil" for greater things.

I would surmise that not all of these 28 souls were "nekkid as a jaybird" when they met their respective demise, so it would appear that the hollowpoint cavities do not fill up with material and become a non-expanding projectile afterall. Average expansion for all 28 shootings was 0.5406" (or slightly more than 1.5x caliber) and the population (n) appears to be a statistically valid one.

Of course, this did happen on the West Coast, so who knows? Maybe all the documented shootings occurred in an ultra-liberal nudist colony run jointly by Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. Ewww....:barf:

Did you check the link and read the article that I provided for the purpose of substantiating my post? It makes, by way of scientifically collected and presented data, a most compelling "counter-argument" to all of the assertions you make above and uses data obtained from real-life shootings that seem to support the countering argument that begs to be made in response to your assertions.

Regards,

JohnBT
July 14, 2008, 06:31 PM
I have a question. How many folks were shot during that same period of time with those same 147's to get the subjects for the 28 autopsies? The point being that that we only know that 28 people were killed, not how many were shot and not stopped/killed. The ratio of stopped/not-stopped would be telling.

John

Gun Slinger
July 14, 2008, 07:27 PM
I have a question. How many folks were shot during that same period of time with those same 147's to get the subjects for the 28 autopsies? The point being that that we only know that 28 people were killed, not how many were shot and not stopped/killed. The ratio of stopped/not-stopped would be telling.

I agree that such a ratio would be an extremely interesting aspect to consider and I look forward to what your research on this matter reveals.

I trust that you will keep us all apprised of what you discover as result of your research on this intriguing subject matter.

gym
July 14, 2008, 08:54 PM
When I know there is a chance no matter how slim, that I may need a weapon, I carry a G30,. When I know there is almost no chance of anything bad happening, I carry a PF-9 . Since nothing bad is going to happen I take a spare clip in my fanny -pac, because in Fl, it's too darn hot to carry any other way, "unless your working". 15 years ago, I realized that anyone with a fanny pac, under the age of 70, was probablly carrying a gun. There are a lot of fanny pacs. The clip in my keltek is 115 grain, the 2nd clip is 147, I guesss I figured if the 115 didn't seem to be working, I could try the 147. As far as droping someone, that guy David, did with a rock. I think it's all dependant on who it is, how big and determined they are, and how good a shot you are when someone is shooting back. If you shoot him in the head or the heart, does it really matter which bullitt you use. Maybe a little, or we would all carry 22's. That's what my uncle Mike used to tell me, he was a Marine, who passed on last year. That freaki'n altizhmers, got him, got him good, he used to tell me, "son if you can hit what your aiming at, then carry a 22", then he would tell me about the time they went up to Alaska for Bear, or Moose, 50+ year old guys jumping out of planes in alaska. He asked the Guide what he used on a Moose, and the guide pointed to his 22 caliber rifle, "my uncle could tell a story", and did as often as possible" he and my other uncles had all kinds of High powered rifles, with scopes, and the guide had a 22. He said , son how the heck do you shoot something that size with a 22?, the guide said I sneak up on him and shoot him in the ear. Uncle Mike lived every day to the fullest. Passed on at 82

JohnBT
July 14, 2008, 10:49 PM
I agree that such a ratio would be an extremely interesting aspect to consider and I look forward to what your research on this matter reveals.

I trust that you will keep us all apprised of what you discover as result of your research on this intriguing subject matter.
____________________

My research? You're the one saying that 28 autopsies is statistically significant without knowing if it was 28 killed out of 29 people shot or 28 killed out of 999 shot.

John

Gun Slinger
July 14, 2008, 11:47 PM
I agree that such a ratio would be an extremely interesting aspect to consider and I look forward to what your research on this matter reveals.

I trust that you will keep us all apprised of what you discover as result of your research on this intriguing subject matter.
____________________

My research? You're the one saying that 28 autopsies is statistically significant without knowing if it was 28 killed out of 29 people shot or 28 killed out of 999 shot.


BZZZZZZT !!!

Wrong answer, John! But, thanks for playing!



You're the one saying that 28 autopsies is statistically significant without knowing if it was 28 killed out of 29 people shot or 28 killed out of 999 shot.

I said nothing of the sort.






First of all, I never used the term "statistcally significant". The term that I used was "statistically valid" and I was referring the sample population (n) that Wolberg used to assess the performance of the particular ammunition in question. I have no idea where you came up with the number 999 as that was not the sample size in Mr. Wolberg's article and I never indicated that I was doing any sort of research. If you have a problem with the methodology employed in the Wolberg article, I suggest that you take it up with him so that he may benefit from the enlightenment that you can provide him.

Judging from your remarks, I gather that you didn't read the article from the link that I provided, did you, John?

Second, You asked a question:

I have a question. How many folks were shot during that same period of time with those same 147's to get the subjects for the 28 autopsies?

If you ask a question and are interested in finding the answer to that question and since you clearly have access to the very same Internet that I do, you are therefore just as capable of researching for yourself the answer to the question that you posed.

I am neither compelled to nor responsible for answering or researching your speculative line of questions. Perhaps it is that you are just too lazy and unmotivated to do something for yourself?

Certainly you didn't expect me to do all the research to the question that you posed above and hand the answer to you, did you?

For shame, John, for shame.... :(

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 14, 2008, 11:54 PM
Because these so-called "experts" are anything but. Where are you reading, anyway? I think some of these experts are pushing something newfangled for sale, or think that "energy" is what kills.

Gun Slinger
July 15, 2008, 12:19 AM
PremiumSauces,

I provided the link to Wolberg's article (1991) so that everyone can see for themselves the data to which I refer. It is clear that he is employing the scientific method and that in and of itself speaks volumes to me for his expertise.

Due to the time frame that we are talking about (about 17 years) here, I sincerely doubt that anyone is pushing anything that could be even remotely considered "new-fangled" by any stretch of the imagination unless you believe the Winchester USA 147 gr. JHP (aka: Winchester White Box) to be "cutting edge" ammunition which I can assure you, it ain't, as it has been around for quite a long time.

It does not appear that E. Wolberg is suggesting that any mechanism or causal factor can, or even should, be implied from the data he provides in the article. His research simply provides that measurements of the bullets recovered at autopsy from 28 subjects and indicates a strong correlation between the data presented and results that can be obtained for this particular ammunition when it is tested in calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin.

Here is the link to the article that I make reference to (in post #84) if you missed it or are having a hard time locating it:

http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/winchester_9mm.pdf

Give it a read. It is interesting stuff.

Regards,

JohnBT
July 15, 2008, 08:48 AM
" I have no idea where you came up with the number 999 as that was not the sample size in Mr. Wolberg's article"

I was pointing out that Mr. Wolberg's sample size was not very large by using a large number I picked out of thin air. Make it 1,000 or 10,000 if you like.

"It is clear that he is employing the scientific method"

His sample size was not only too small, it was, as I pointed out in an earlier post, composed of only those who expired and not of all those who were shot with the round in question. That's where my 999 came in. What if there were nearly 1,000 others shot with that round who did not expire? What if their wounds could somehow be measured and those measurements showed variable or downright lousy penetration, expansion, etc.

I don't think he was using good science at all.

Let me use an auto racing example. Look at the make of the cars that finish a race. If half of them are Fords does that prove that Fords were the most reliable cars in the race? It does if all the Fords that started the race finished it. It doesn't if most of the cars starting were Fords and those Fords that finished were only a small percentage (IOW, let's say 75% of the Fords DNF.) It's all about the ratio; just like it is when it comes to how many were shot and how many of the total shot were stopped/killed.

It's been a long time, but I had very good science and statistics professors.

His numbers certainly show that the round worked in the cases cited and that it could be a good one. Without much more information it is impossible to draw any conclusions about how often the round will work. His 28 cases could represent the only successful outcomes.

John

Ltlabner
July 15, 2008, 09:00 AM
Oh look another 9mm vs .45 thread.

If you are in love with 9mm or .45 get on with your bad self. More power to you.

But why do people spend so much energy trying to convince me that what I am carrying is all wrong? Shoot & carry what you are comfrotable with and leave me out of it.

If you love .45ACP fine. If you love 9mm fine.
Signed,

.40S&W Fan

Onesiphorus
July 15, 2008, 01:50 PM
Believing something leaves only 2 possibilities.

1. Your right.
2. Your deceived

I liked my M-60, as a crew cheif/doorgunner. My bugout gun I carried along was an M-79 with 2 bandos of a variety of projectiles. "Nails" were good. My .45 was on my side as a last resort. A 9mm would hve been as good.

BushyGuy
August 16, 2009, 06:43 PM
just wondering how many bad guys did Mas Ayoob realy kill in self defense? he always used a .45 so how can he know if the 147gr bullet is effective in stopping a Killer on PCP? he needs to collect the facts from real officers that were in the line of fire and had to put down a bad guy ... those are the ones you get the real facts from not MASSAD AYOOB ..

Ayoob might be an expert marksman but we need real facts that will be help us choose an effective bullet when we need to defend our precious lives someday...I collected some facts and the 147gr standard loads for 9mm is proven effective on the streets from a 4 inch barrel or longer.

SharpsDressedMan
August 16, 2009, 07:19 PM
Use what you feel confident with. Shoot until the threat is stopped. Reload if necessary. Ah, hell, reload ANYWAY. And look around for other potential threats!

Marvin KNox
August 16, 2009, 08:35 PM
IMO, a lot of the talk about the ineffectivness of the 147 gr. 9mm stems from people reading and then regurgitating the old article by "Anonymous" prefaced by Chuck Hawks (and a few other sources from a few years back).

Info. like that is old stuff in these fast changing self defense ammo times IMO.

Catch up on the times and use a "modern" 9mm projectile (like HST, DPX, or a number of others) in anything from 115gr. to 147 gr. and you'll do fine if 9mm is your choice of caliber.

Reliable expansion of hollow points with penetration to 12" or so of ballistic gel. - in a calliber (and/or powder charge level) that you personally can shoot well and repeat the hits quickly with - and be comfortable doing so (so you don't build flinches) is the name of the game.

Lots to choose from out there starting at about 9mm up to .45 or so and 115gr. up to 230gr. or so. That definately includes a nice modern 147 gr. hollow point IMO.

I wouldn't shoot a dog with a solid though - unless it was all that was available - and then I'd want it to be a .45 caliber IMO.

mljdeckard
August 16, 2009, 09:03 PM
And what 'real world experience' is it YOU have that supersedes Ayoobs background?

KegCommando
August 16, 2009, 09:43 PM
Dang it, I read about two pages worth before I realized that most of this thread is years old, and I've already read it!

DougDubya
August 16, 2009, 09:53 PM
Repeating a previous poster:

Old thread is old.

(Also, the 147 grain round was light pressure and charge for the round it was pushing. Another 50-100 fps would have made even the old 147's do a fabulous job in the mass/momentum/energy ratio of things. 900 fps is just a lame velocity for anything smaller than .45 ACP and even then, you want maximum weight for such low velocity.)

9mmepiphany
August 27, 2010, 10:33 PM
This thread is 5 years old, but the last post has information that members might be interested in.

I'm going to move it to a new thread and close this one

If you enjoyed reading about "Why do "experts" not like the 9mm 147 grain jhp or the 9mm caliber" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!