[StrikeEagle]

30 years or so ago, I read where Jeff Cooper recommended the 'Pinch Check'... to determine whether or no a .45 had a round in the chamber.

It's accomplished by pinching the loaded, cocked piece. Thumb in the trigger guard, at the front; index finger on the recoil spring plug. Pinch until the slide eases back a bit and you can see if one is chambered.

Actual photos, presumably of Chairman Jeff himself performing this, were provided.

But...

PLEASE DON'T DO THIS. Frankly, it scares the snot out of me and seems like a good way to go missing an index finger. Please don't. :eek:

I only mention this to ask... do YOU do this? Am I the only one who gets freaked out at the very thought of bringing his finger anywhere near the muzzle of a COCKED, LOADED .45 Auto?

The thing was presented as the 'professional' way to go about things. :uhoh:

I really love Cooper's stuff, but man... this dang thing is too rich for my blood. Am I being a weenie? Am I alone in this? Give it to me straightup, folks. Tuner?

StrikeEagle

ps: I find this so weird that it made me uneasy even to describe it. Please don't do it. :p

[Steelharp]

Although my experience is very limited, it seems to me that the 1911 has the very best "loaded chamber indicator" that was ever devised... the hammer. If it's down, it "should" be empty (never lower the hammer on a round, but some people's kids)... if it's back... it's either loaded, getting field stripped, or in dry fire practice...

I do not pinch check mine; mine is always in one of the conditions above...

[Old Fuff]

Pinch checking isn't particularly dangerous if it's done the way it is supposed to be done, but otherwise, yes. I know of a case where an individual put his hand over the muzzle while holding the pistol in his other hand with a finger inside the trigger guard ... :what: What happened was what you'd expect.

Besides the obvious reasons, the objection I have is with the way many guns are fitted today, the slide may not return to battery. I generally know when my chamber is loaded because I loaded it. :)

[1911Tuner]

When the thumb goes into the trigger guard, it has at least a small chance of contacting the trigger, making this a risky move. The "safe" way to do a press/pinch check is to simply place the pad of your thumb on the hammer and apply enough pressure to pull it to the grip safety tang before the other hand touches the gun... and keep it there until the slide is returned to battery and the pinch hand is clear of the muzzle. Release the hammer and engage the thumb safety. The slide will move far enough to see the round in the chamber. The hammer is under control, and once the slide has moved, the disconnect cams out of position, breaking the connection between trigger and sear.

The one thing to keep ever present in mind is:

It's a GUN! It's NOT safe!

[Old Fuff]

You are correct concerning the interaction between the hammer spur and grip safety, but I have seen pistols with aftermarket hammers and/or grip safeties where the hammer spur would no longer depress the grip safety. In other instances someone had made an unwise modification that had the same effect. Before using Tuner's method be sure you don't have one of these.

Of course Tuner's guns are the way John Browning intended in this respect, and so are mine. :D

[1911Tuner]

It matters not...much anyway. As long as ya got control of the hammer you can do a pinch-check without losin' a fanger... :eek:

[nextjoe]

I don't see what could POSSIBLY be unwise about sticking one digit RIGHT UNDER the muzzle while sticking another digit INSIDE THE TRIGGERGUARD! :banghead: :uhoh: :eek:

Wow.

[pauli]

didn't we have a big thread about this a few months ago?

still seems prodigiously stupid, and the whole concept makes me slightly worried that some moron in the next lane is going to think it's a good idea.

there we go:

Presscheck: Is this a 1911 thing? (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=148637)

[Black Majik]

I press-check, but not pinch-check :D

Support hand over top of slide, right hand "somewhat loosely" gripping the grip as to not engage the grip safety and slightly pull the slide rearward to ensure a round is in the chamber.

[MICHAEL T]

How did us older people ever get to be old doing all the dumb things like a pinch check ,lowering a hammer on a live round and then carrying that way. Oh I forgot some people thumb cocked, when they had real hammers not these cute little things of today.Just so you can have your dam surf board grip safety. Leave the pistol like it was designed and all these things are safe to do. I don't even mind if my 1911 rattles a little.

[waterhouse]

If I ever feel the need to check:

with my right hand starting in its normal grip, I reach my index and middle firgers up over the top of the slide near the rear sight and apply a slight pressure to the rear with those fingers. It moves the slide back about 1/4 of an inch, and nothing goes in the trigger guard or near the front of the dnagerous end.

[Rockstar]

Could be that Col Cooper's mind was muddled at the moment. He might have been fantasizing about making a spectacular shot on a zebra @ 50 yds. with his Scout rifle. :p If I find it necessary to check the chamber, I use the same finger-outside-the-trigger-guard, four-fingers-over-the-slide mechanics that I do when I chamber a round.

[Majic]

Just because something "scares the snot out of you" doesn't mean someone else doesn't know what they are doing.

[Rockstar]

Shooting zebras doesn't scare me. :p

[SAWBONES]

"Just because something 'scares the snot out of you' doesn't mean someone else doesn't know what they are doing."

And that's about the size of it.

I'm always surprised and amused by relative newcomers giving advice to the old hands.
Col. Cooper knows more about the operation and use of the 1911 than anybody alive today.

In spite of the perception nowadays that everything has to be made as safe as possible, it was recognized by those who pioneered the "Modern Technique of the Pistol" that intelligent people could handle guns safely and do things like press-checking without mishap. I've done it with my 1911s for 20 years without ill effects or accidents, and will continue to do so.

[3rdpig]

Col. Cooper knows more about the operation and use of the 1911 than anybody alive today.

:barf:

[1911Tuner]

SAWBONES:

>Just because something 'scares the snot out of you' doesn't mean someone else doesn't know what they are doing.<

>>I'm always surprised and amused by relative newcomers giving advice to the old hands.<<
*****************************

:D Yep.

The following isn't meant to start a fight, or to try and talk anyone into doing something that they're uncomfortable with. If pinch-check scares you, don't do it. Merely to explain how the gun functions and how to pinch-check without losing a chunk of your finger. FWIW, I don't think that Col. Cooper does it correctly unless the pictures aren't done at such an angle to show his complete technique.

Pinch-checking is dangerous. So is lowering the hammer on a hot chamber.
So is carrying a loaded gun for that matter. Fact is, that people have been doin' these things without a problem for years. All it takes is extreme care in the handlin' and doin'. It can be done without blowin' off an appendage, but it does take a little study of the safest way to do it...and complete focus on the task at hand.

Once more...The pinch-check can be done safely by following the correct procedure. Here it is:

Get control of the hammer first. Not second...Not later. First. Once the hammer is under control, the gun can't fire.

Insert thumb into the trigger guard while you watch closely to see that it doesn't touch the trigger. This calls for a modicum of fine motor skill and shouldn't be done unless you can focus on the task at hand. Don't do it if you're distracted or under pressure. Maintaining contact with the side of the trigger guard with the pad of your thumb, and rolling your thumb around to contact the forward area is a good technique. Once that's done, then and only then should you move your index finger into position at the recoil spring plug.

If the gun doesn't have a duck tail safety, the entire check can be done without taking your thumb off the hammer. The slide will move far enough.

While keeping a little pressure on the hammer, pinch the slide back. >>As soon as the slide moves about a 16th of an inch, the slide is out of battery and the disconnector isn't in position to allow the gun to fire, no matter what you do to the trigger.<<

That's part of its function to prevent the gun firing out of battery. If it makes you feel better, perform a disconnector function check with an empty gun. Move the slide far enough to check the chamber and pull the trigger. The hammer won't fall unless there's somethin' bad wrong...and even if it does, the hammer will stop on the underside of the slide before it hits the firing pin.

[Tim Burke]

30 years or so ago

The pinch check was state of the art. If now we can see better ways to do things, it is because we stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before us, blazing the trail.
Jeff Cooper's contributions to the field of defensive weaponcraft make him a giant, and it should be no surprise to anyone that standing on his shoulders we can see further than he could.

[HSMITH]

I don't pinch check or press check or anything of the sort. I know I can do it without ventilating anything that shouldn't get ventilated, but it is a VERY bad habit for anyone shooting competitively. Around here if your hand breaks the plane of the muzzle and is anywhere near the gun you go home, INSTANT DQ. I have seen it happen to a couple guys and don't want to go home early, so I banished it from my routine.

[c_yeager]

Ive always wondered why 1911s even have serrations on the aft portion of the slide, clearly they are just cosmetic :rolleyes:

[1911Tuner]

Tim Burke...I wish I'd said that. :cool:

HSMITH...Understood and understood. Games have to have their inalienable rules that must be followed to the letter with no exceptions. Too many people and too many guns at a match to allow it.

I pinch check...on occasion. That doesn't insinuate that I want everybody to do it. Just to point out that it can be done as safely as handling a loaded gun will allow, and to outline the technique for others who want to do it.

Remember that there was a time that the sight of a cocked and locked 1911 in a holster caused great alarm because it was too dangerous. Of course it's dangerous. It's a gun. Handle it with the same respect due a rattlesnake.

[bigmike45]

I have three 1911's and they all have something in common. At the top, rear of the barrel hood is a 1/16" wide slit, that is cut far enough forward, that when a round is chambered I can easily see the brass rim. The shiny brass rim really shows off even in low light conditions. I also have, on my Kimber Custom TLE IIe an external extractor that sticks out when a round is in the chamber. All three work well enough that a pinch check/ppress check will never need to be performed by me. I know that Jeff is the master, but even with his vast and unequaled experience, I have never felt comfortable doing either. I have gently pushed the slide back while covering the top with my hand, but again it is really uncomfortable for me.

Ok Ok....flame me if you want about not pinch/press checking the gun to actually see the back of the round, but if I can see the rim of the round through the factory supplied slot, I do see the round....only a smaller amount of it. And I tried a couple of tests in really low light, not dark, conditions and pinch/press checking for a round did not offer any better ability of seeing a chambered round than does just looking through the slot in the rear of the barrel hood.

As far as pinch/press checking to verify an unloaded gun. I will always pull the slide fully to the rear and lock it open to perform this check.

Also some food for thought....if there is a bump in the night, sufficient enough to cause you to draw a weapon to investigate, a flashlight will, more than likely be part of your defense package as well. Holding the flashlight with the other hand will almost eliminate the ability to pinch/press check for a round, but just the outer fringes of the light will be sufficient to illuminate the slot for evidence of the round. JMHO!!!!

[1911Tuner]

Opinions welcome bigmike...No flames from me. Whatever works for you is the way you should do it. ;)

[SAWBONES]

"As far as pinch/press checking to verify an unloaded gun."

Actually, I do it usually to verify that the chamber is LOADED, not unloaded.
It's important to know that the pistol is in a state of readiness, and that's what the press check (or pinch check if you prefer) was originally advocated for.
But of course, it's a means of verifying whatever the condition of the gun may be.

As usual, 'Tuner is sensible, conciliatory, levelheaded and non-alarmist in his answers.

All the young'uns who are afraid to press check, or to fish the toast out of the toaster with a fork, or go out in the rain without your rubbers, or do any other thing your Mom warned you against, shouldn't do it, obviously. As for teaching new shooters, it's obviously appropriate to emphasize safety and safe techniques.
But guns ARE dangerous machines, yet ARE capable of being handled with reasonable safety by many of us without resorting to "absolute must-nots".
When you're a grown-up, you can do lots of things a child cannot do safely. Even the Four Rules, so slavishly quoted by many, cannot be adhered to under all circumstances.

My point is that intelligent, mature and reasonably-skilled people can do lots of things that less intelligent or immature or less-skilled people cannot. Nuthin' new there!

[Rockstar]

I'm certainly not a "youngun", nor am I afraid to press-check. Just prefer a different approach. Wonder how many guys "press check" when they're alone? :rolleyes:

[pauli]

My point is that intelligent, mature and reasonably-skilled people can do lots of things that less intelligent or immature or less-skilled people cannot. Nuthin' new there!

...and the counter argument is that intelligent, mature, and reasonably skilled people should know better than to employ methods that are needlessly risky relative to the alternatives.

personally, i just find it mind blowing that anybody (much less people i tend to listen to) would put *anything* inside the trigger guard of a firearm for any reason other to pull the trigger, especially when the same end result can be achieved with less manual dexterity and better control by just grabbing the back of the slide.

there may be safe ways to operate a hair dryer while standing in a puddle, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't step onto something dry anyway.

[1911Tuner]

ooooh! oooh! This one's gonna go hot! Guess I'd better 'splain another way to do it for those who wanna press/pinch check and don't trust keepin' control of the hammer. This one works well with a FLGR.

Gun in hand...Finger off-trigger...position the pad of the OTHER thumb at the end of the grip safety tang. Wrist bent downward...reach around with the index finger and position it on the front of the rear sight between the first and second joints. Pinch! The slide opens and the chambered round can be seen...or not seen as the case may be. Same applies as before. Once the slide is out of battery, the gun can't fire.

Of course, the ramped rear sights like the Novak Lo-Mount make it a bit tricky, especially if you've got short fingers...but it works well and doesn't
cause unnecessary heebie-jeebies. All it takes is a little study on the many ways to skin a cat. Izzat cool or what? :cool:

Theah! Now we can all be friends again! :p

[Majic]

personally, i just find it mind blowing that anybody (much less people i tend to listen to) would put *anything* inside the trigger guard of a firearm for any reason other to pull the trigger, especially when the same end result can be achieved with less manual dexterity and better control by just grabbing the back of the slide.
Better control than what, the pinch check? That's a matter of opinion.
Just another way to skin the cat. If that skinning knife is too sharp for you then leave it alone.

[swingset]

I love when Cooper advocates something stupid, and the apologists come streaming in to remind us he's 94 years old, knows more about guns than God's gunsmith, and has earned the right to be cranky and wrong.

Ok, that's all. On with the show.

BTW, I don't pinch-check my 1911. :neener:

[english kanigit]

Press-check, pinch-check, drop-mag-rack-slide-and-check... it all works to one end. I've done 'em all. That said, c yeager made one of my favorite points so far.
Ive always wondered why 1911s even have serrations on the aft portion of the slide, clearly they are just cosmetic...
Sure, it ain't trendy, but it works. :rolleyes:


And before this thread gets any more interesting, I'm gonna put on some Nomex boxers... :p

[Gillster]

+1 for 1911Tuners method. That's how I check and I'm embarrased to say I saw it in a movie first (but not a Segal movie). Works though.


Chris

[StrikeEagle]

Thank you, one and all! :)

You guys are the best! Glad to know that I'm not alone in my discomfort. Tuner, you are joy and a treasure. Your suggestions make perfect sense to me.

Be well!

StrikeEagle

[W Turner]

I am not normally skittish about some the so-called "unsafe" things that old timers like Cooper advocate. In most instances I agree with them, but not this one.

The potential for error here is too great for me. Putting your finger in the trigger guard while putting another finger near the muzzle while performing an action the requires the thumb safety to be off ? Doesn't sound like a great idea to me either so I use a different method. I grasp the slide using the forward serrations and my hand under the pistol. Looks almost like I am cupping the portion forward of the trigger guard in my hand. My strong hand holds the pistol in a normal firing grip with the finger off the trigger.

On guns that don't have forward serrations, my weak hand goes over the top of the slide just forward of the ejection port and my strong hand is in a normal firing grip with my finger off the trigger. My hand/wrist/forearm are well above the muzzle.

May not work for everybody, but it works for me.

W

[45auto]

I used to "pinch check" all the time until I put in a FLGR. And all you guys thought that was a useless device. ;)

IMHO, it's probably not the best, safest or most efficient way to check a 1911.

But, I still have one 1911 left without a FLGR, so I go into the gun safe now and then just to "pinch check" it. It's always empty anyway but it's a hard habit to drop. :D

[DirksterG30]

"I love when Cooper advocates something stupid, and the apologists come streaming in to remind us he's 94 years old, knows more about guns than God's gunsmith, and has earned the right to be cranky and wrong."

I couldn't agree more!

[Tim Burke]

I love when Cooper advocates something stupid, and the apologists come streaming in to remind us he's 94 years old, knows more about guns than God's gunsmith, and has earned the right to be cranky and wrong. And I love it when some anonymous wise guy behind a keyboard who has never written a book on shooting, has never founded a shooting sport, and has never established a shooting school thinks that they have the standing to denigrate Jeff Cooper. Everybody is amused by different things.

[spacemanspiff]

so my method of peering down the muzzle to see if theres a shiny round in the chamber is not a good idea?
:eek:

[zahc]

Nobody mentioned that even if you manage to shoot yourself with the pinch-check, all you are going to lose is the end of your finger and/or get some burns. Sure nobody likes to get shot but your probably only risking your fingers, not life. Something to mention.

[StrikeEagle]

Yeah... I really love Jeff Cooper's writing. But please... even this great man can screw up. :)

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886968

StrikeEagle

[Titus]

Who screwed up? What would Cooper say about that guy's "didn't know it was loaded" excuse?

[SAWBONES]

"And I love it when some anonymous wise guy behind a keyboard who has never written a book on shooting, has never founded a shooting sport, and has never established a shooting school thinks that they have the standing to denigrate Jeff Cooper."

This is my thought too.
There's altogether too much of a tendency for young, relatively inexperienced know-it-alls who've contributed nothing of note, done nothing of note in life, and know nothing except what they've read in books or been taught in classes, to pontificate on gun BBs.

Do what you want.
Just don't assume that your lightweight opinions should carry any authority with anybody.