Treadwell's death and body recovery - a live-action account


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Preacherman
August 28, 2005, 11:55 AM
The following is of interest to us gunnies, given the details of firearms and their use against two bears trying to attack the Park Rangers, police and others involved in the recovery of the bodies of Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend a couple of years ago. Grisly stuff.

From the Anchorage Daily News (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/6869328p-6764794c.html):

Treadwell book excerpt: Pilot makes grisly discovery

By NICK JANS

Published: August 28, 2005
Last Modified: August 28, 2005 at 07:43 AM

EDITOR'S NOTE: Few Alaska stories have captured the world's attention like the life and death of Timothy Treadwell, the Californian who spent 13 summers living among brown bears in Katmai National Park. Interest in the deaths of Treadwell and companion Amie Huguenard has peaked again with the movie "Grizzly Man" and the book "Grizzly Maze: Timothy Treadwell's Fatal Obsession With Alaskan Bears," released earlier this summer. Juneau writer Nick Jans tells a rich tale of Treadwell's bizarre life, his interactions with Alaskans and what happened on the Katmai coast. A warning: The following excerpt contains graphic detail of Treadwell's and Huguenard's deaths.

When Andrew Airways pilot Willy Fulton lands at Upper Kaflia Lake at 2 p.m. Oct. 6, 2003, things don't seem right. He's flown Tim Treadwell for years and is expecting the usual neat pile of gear down by the water's edge, ready for a quick load and fly-out. Neither did Treadwell make his customary contact with his hand-held VHF radio as the plane approached. Fulton taxis the Beaver into the tiny bay below camp. As he steps out onto the floats, he sees movement on the knoll. His view partly blocked by the brush, he figures it's a person shaking out a tarp. Things are all right after all. Tim and his companion, Amie Huguenard, were just somehow delayed, maybe the weather, a video opportunity, or a morning hike that went on too long. They'd better hurry; the weather isn't getting any better. Pounding rain and a lowering sky.

He calls out their names.

Silence. A little strange, but nothing to worry about.

Unarmed, clumping along in the floatplane pilot's standard footgear -- hip waders -- he starts the 80-yard climb up the more direct of two main bear trails that wind toward camp. "About halfway up, I got kind of an odd feeling," he says, "and decided to go back to the plane." He wants to take off, look things over from the air. Tim and Amie will probably be coming along through the brush from the creek, waving to him. The Beaver is moored to a clump of alders against the bank. Pausing to untie, Fulton glances over his shoulder. And behind him is a bear, coming fast and low, eerily silent, 20 feet away. As the pilot leaps to his floats and pushes off, the bear is a body length behind. Fulton scrambles into the cockpit and slams the door. The bear, a big, dark male, skids to a stop at the water's edge, eyes still fixed on him. Huffing, the bear paces the bank as the plane drifts out into the lake. Normally Fulton would have a shotgun in his plane, as per state regulations, but he's left it back in Kodiak.

"I've been charged by a few bears, but this was different," Fulton says. "He wasn't doing that usual bear-of-the-woods thing, acting big and bad. He was crouched down, sneaking on me. That look in his eye was real different too. Right then I felt like he was out to kill me and eat me." Fulton's heart is thumping. Now he knows something isn't right. The Beaver's engine rattles to life, and the bear fades into the alders.

Fulton is shaken by his own near scrape, but this is swept away by waves of dread. Maybe it happened this time, maybe he went too far. ... Oh, Jesus ... He taxis out into the center of the lake, turns into the wind, and takes off. Circling over the camp, he can see the tents -- still staked out but mashed flat. And in front of one he sees a large bear, the same one, he figures, feeding on human remains -- a rib cage for certain. But just one body -- someone's still alive down there. He makes pass after pass, 15 or 20, he figures, swooping lower and lower, trying to drive off the bear and looking for other signs of movement. "I just about knocked him off the body, I was so low," Fulton says. "The floats were maybe two or three feet over his head and I couldn't get any lower because of the brush." His voice has the same tone as if he's talking about weather, instead of high-stakes, screw-up-and-die flying. But the bear doesn't budge and, by the last few passes, doesn't even look up. "He just crouched down," Fulton remembers, "and ate faster."

There's no sign of anyone. Still, Tim or Amie -- he's not sure which -- could be hiding somewhere, maybe in one of the tents or out in the brush, maybe even a mile or two away. He taxis to different places on the upper lake, stops the engine, and calls, his voice echoing in the rain-swept silence. Then he takes off, flies to the lower lake and to different places in the bay, stopping and calling again and again. No answer.

Willy Fulton lands, taxis to the west end of the lake, and raises Andrew Airways, back in Kodiak. Operations manager Stan Divine in turn calls the Alaska State Troopers in Kodiak and the National Park Service in King Salmon, which is on the mainland, a hundred miles west of Kaflia, on the far side of the Alaska Peninsula. Ranger Joel Ellis takes the call at 2:35 p.m. Though he's in his first year in Alaska, just completing his first season at Katmai, he's had 20 years of experience as a ranger, including posts at Yellowstone and Grand Teton -- places with grizzlies.

Ellis immediately contacts Allen Gilliland, the Park Service pilot, to get the Park Service Cessna 206 floatplane ready. Then Ellis touches base with the state troopers, as well as the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. He relays a message through Andrew Airways, asking Fulton to wait where he is. Though it's Sunday afternoon and offices are closed, Ellis is able to make contact with both agencies. He also calls ranger Derek Dalrymple and tells him to hustle in. The rangers grab first aid gear and two Remington Model 870 pump shotguns -- preferred for their sure, nonjamming actions -- and boxes of rifled slugs. Ellis is wearing his .40-caliber Smith & Wesson service pistol. There's a strict protocol to be followed. Ellis is medic and operations commander of the rescue effort. With acting park superintendent Joe Fowler out of town, chief back-country ranger Missy Epping assumes the formal role as incident commander. She'll remain in King Salmon to supervise communication, pass the word up the chain of command, and get the paperwork moving. Unlike Ellis, who is new to Katmai, Epping has a personal stake in all this. She's known Treadwell for years and considers him a friend.

The Cessna is in the air less than an hour after Ellis takes the initial call. Ellis says, "At this point we were on a rescue mission, not knowing if people were dead or alive." On the other hand, Gilliland, planning for the worst, has brought along a couple of body bags from the King Salmon Police Department.

The two men accompanying Ellis, though selected by circumstance, might have been hand-picked for what lies ahead. Gilliland is more than just a pilot. He's an avid and skilled hunter who knows the country -- as well as a certified firearms instructor. Before he became a Park Service pilot, he was a cop in King Salmon for 16 years. Dalrymple, though a seasonal ranger, has been involved in investigating three previous bear-mauling incidents in the Lower 48. He is, as Gilliland later says, "very experienced -- a steady guy to have around."

Eighty miles away in Kodiak, state troopers Chris Hill and Allan Jones are airborne. The weather between King Salmon and Kaflia is getting iffy, closing down. Another fast-moving coastal storm is forecast, which may force the Park Service plane to turn back. The troopers are in radio contact with them; if everyone makes it, they'll rendezvous after landing at upper Kaflia Lake.

The Park Service plane runs into skeins of fog and rain, ceilings below 300 feet. Gilliland isn't sure they can make it in. Fulton tells them they damn well better. Someone may be alive, and he's not leaving. With him playing the role of air controller, the Park Service plane makes it through the weather and taxis down the lake. They confer with Fulton, who by now has been waiting for nearly three hours, alone in the world of unspoken fears, unable to help or do anything for his friends. He jumps in the 206, and they taxi the half mile east toward the outlet stream and the knoll. As they coast toward shore, Gilliland points out a bear on the hill, standing by one of the tents.

Ellis recalls, "We got out of the plane, guns ready. We were in a combat-ready situation, yelling for the people." The shouting is also to alert any bears in the area and drive them away. After tying up the plane, they immediately begin to move forward, hands clenched around weapons, still calling out for Treadwell and Huguenard. Ellis, Dalrymple, and Gilliland thread single file along the steep, narrow trail rising through the alders. Fulton, "amped up" as he says, clambers ahead of them, unarmed, and has to be reminded more than once to slow down. They break into the open below the crown of the knoll and pause, spreading out so that they can all fire at once if necessary. At Gilliland's urging, they decide to wait for Hill and Jones, who are just landing. Because of a lack of space in the tiny bay and overhanging alders everywhere else, the troopers will have to moor 200 yards down the shore and muscle their way along the bank through heavy brush. Gilliland suggests the troopers might have a large-caliber rifle, and the extra firepower could make a difference. Tense and dry-mouthed, standing in the cold deluge of rain, the four men remain facing uphill toward the crest of the grass-crowned knoll, where they last saw the bear. Off to their right is a marshy, open swale; ahead, a curtain of 8-foot alder brush and chest-high grass that restricts visibility to a few arm lengths. The bear trails that snake through the growth will require them, in places, to bend at the waist.

Gilliland, the pilot, channels his jitters into his eyes, scanning the brush in all directions. The threat, as it turns out, comes from the rear.

"Bear!" he shouts. It's less than 20 feet away, head low, moving silently toward them, its outline blurred by the alders. All four men yell repeatedly, throwing all their pent-up emotion into it, trying to haze the big male away. Instead of retreating -- as almost any bear would, from a tightly packed, aggressive, loud group of humans -- it stares straight at them and steps forward. In his official Incident Report, Ellis will write, "I perceived the bear was well aware of our presence and was stalking us. I believe that."

Gilliland concurs. "We were between the bear and its carcass, but it didn't charge us to defend it like most bears would do. It had circled around us and was coming quietly from the rear."

Fulton adds, "He had that same look in his eye. I think he meant to kill all of us."

The first movement toward them is enough of a signal to the men, whose nerves are stretched like piano wire. Ellis says, "We didn't confer. We all just started shooting." Fulton, who is between the men and the bear, finds himself literally in the crossfire.

"I just remember gun barrels swinging toward me," he says. With the bear a dozen feet away, he dives to the ground and the fusillade explodes overhead.

A half-ton brown bear, as experienced hunters know, can be almost impossible to stop, especially worked up, coming straight in. There are tales of magnum-caliber rounds -- slugs damn near the size of a thumb -- deflecting off the thick, sloped forehead, and charging animals absorbing incredible punishment, dead on their feet but still coming. Gilliland says he never saw one go down once and stay down. But the barrage unleashed by the rangers is staggering: five rounds each of one-ounce rifled shotgun slugs from Dalrymple and Gilliland, and 11 soft points from Ellis' .40 caliber semiautomatic handgun -- 19 shots in under 15 seconds, the booming crash of shotguns overlaid with the sharp, rapid crack of pistol fire.

Troopers Jones and Hill are just tying off their plane when they hear the volley. "I thought it was some sort of fancy multiple-report cracker shell the Park Service guys had," recalls Jones, referring to the shotgun-fired noisemakers often used to scare off aggressive bears. "It was a continuous series of shots, quite a racket."

Gilliland's report reads, "I fired five rounds ... with one hit to the head below the eye and four hits to the neck and shoulder." In retrospect, Gilliland feels his first shot killed the bear instantly. But given his experience and the extreme close range, he didn't take chances.

Ranger Dalrymple's version is more laconic: "I shot until the threat was stopped."

The big bear drops in his tracks, twitches, sighs out one last breath, and is dead. The men stand stunned in the rain, wrapped in a cloud of acrid powder smoke, their ears ringing and their breath steaming into the air. They're alive. Ellis paces off the distance separating him and the bear: 12 feet. Gilliland says later, "If it was an all-out charge, he would have taken down one of us."

Pilot Willy Fulton is back on his feet. "I want to look that bear in the eyes," he says. He studies the blood-spattered face, the small, rapidly glazing pupils, and says he's sure it's the same bear that chased him to the plane, the same one he saw on the knoll. The four men continue the last 30 yards to the campsite, no less on edge. Below, the troopers are in sight, making their way through the brush along the lakeshore.

The tents are tucked back in the alders, both crushed down but intact; either a bear has walked over them or someone has fallen against them, but the fabric's neither ripped up nor bloody. In front of the sleeping tent is a large mound of mud, grass and sticks. Several metal bear-resistant food containers are scattered on the north side of the camp in some disarray, but sealed and unmarked by claws or teeth. However, it's the mound in front of the first tent, where the bear had stood, that captures the would-be rescuers' attention. There in the muck is what lead ranger Ellis later calls, his voice tight, "fresh flesh" -- fingers and an arm protruding from the pile.

There is also a chunk of organ Gilliland believes is a kidney. Digging into the bear's cache will reveal further horror. At least one person is gone, but there's still the possibility of a survivor.

While Gilliland goes down to the lake to meet troopers Hill and Jones, Fulton and Ellis explore the tents. Dalrymple stands guard with his shotgun. Since both tents are flattened, Ellis decides the quickest way in is to slash the fabric with his knife. Someone could still be inside, unconscious and torn up, but alive. But they find only clothing and camping and camera gear, most of it stowed neatly. Food in small Ziploc bags, ready to be eaten, as if lunch had been interrupted. Sleeping tent unzipped. Gear tent zipped shut.

By this time, Jones and Hill are on the scene. With unmistakable evidence of at least one fatality, the investigation is officially handed over to the Alaska state troopers. Hill is the officer in charge. The troopers brief everyone on crime scene protocol -- the same rules apply here -- and begin documenting the area. Hill takes a couple of minutes of shaky videotape of the wreckage. Ellis and Dalrymple backtrack to the Park Service plane to bring up notebooks and cameras as well. Meanwhile, Gilliland, ever vigilant, spots a bear -- an enormous dark male drifting silently up the same trail he and the troopers have just used. Vision screened by the brush and grass, Gilliland doesn't see it until it's practically on top of them. The animal seems equally unaware -- just traveling the same trail it has for years, every step locked in memory. This guy is bigger than the last one. Just before denning, his muscular frame sheathed in fat, he's at his maximum weight, maybe 1,200 pounds. Bear! Gilliland shouts.

Jangled as everyone's nerves are, it's a miracle no one shoots. Fulton, Gilliland and the troopers shout and wave. The bear seems nonplussed by the commotion. He considers briefly and shifts into a lumbering lope, off down the hill -- leaving, but with his dignity intact. Just another Katmai bear. Gilliland shouts a heads-up to Ellis and Dalrymple. They stand on the Cessna's floats and watch the bear stroll off to the west, then walk up the hill to join the others. For a time, everyone is busy with shooting photos and jotting notes, freezing the scene in time. Ellis asks if someone should do a perimeter check. Gilliland volunteers. He backtracks to where the dead bear lies in the alders. Skirting the edge of the knoll, weaving on a search pattern through the brush he's a stone's toss from the others, yet totally cut off.

Gilliland is about halfway around his circle when he finds what's left of Timothy Treadwell -- a head missing most of its scalp; part of a shoulder, some connecting tissue, and two forearms. The face, recognizable and uncrushed, is caught in a grimace. Fulton accompanies Hill down to photograph and collect the remains. Washed by the steady rain, everything is surprisingly bloodless. The wrists and face are pale, like wax. While they're working, Gilliland hears a bear popping its jaws, a clear signal of stress and possible aggression. The animal is close, but the brush is too thick to see anything. Fulton and Hill make their way up the knoll with the body bag, and Gilliland, despite the bear, continues his circling of the knoll. He finds nothing more and returns to the camp.

The others, excavating the cache, have discovered another head with face intact -- Amie seems peacefully asleep -- as well as some flesh-stripped bones, miscellaneous scraps, and portions of a torso.

Describing the remains, Ellis sounds like he's struggling for the right words, something to mitigate the horror. "It was way past the initial stages," he tells me. "One or more bears had time to eat most of two bodies and cache the remains. There was no clothing attached to any part. There wasn't much left of anything. We could not tell male from female." When I ask for more detail, he repeats, "We could not tell male from female." Then he says, after a pause, "One part had a watch on it."

Four men break camp and collect Timothy and Amie's gear. Each makes several trips down the now-familiar bear trail to the lake. Meanwhile, Gilliland taxis Fulton back to his plane at the other end of the lake. His Beaver will carry the remains and gear to Kodiak, where the troopers will continue the investigation. (The body bags are so light -- 40 pounds at the most between them -- that the medical examiner meeting the plane will ask for the rest.)


(Continued in next post.)

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Preacherman
August 28, 2005, 11:55 AM
(Continued from previous post.)



While Fulton is warming up his plane, Gilliland taxis back.

As he's hiking up the knoll one last time, he hears trooper Hill yell, Bear! Gilliland can see it moving in the brush, circling from the right toward Ellis and Hill, who are to his left. Dalrymple and Jones are to the right and behind, standing by the pile of gear on the lake shore. About 30 feet separates the three men in front and the bear. It's a much smaller animal, probably a 3-year-old -- the kind of bear that most often gets in trouble with people.

Driven off by their mothers and on their own for the first time, some are timid and uncertain; others curious and apparently eager for company; a few aggressive, testing the boundaries, seeing how far they can push things. Teenagers, in other words. There's nothing abnormal about the bear's approach, but its timing couldn't be worse. The men have all had enough -- all of them tired and raw-nerved. Still, they hold off. Everyone waves and yells the by-now-familiar mantra, their voices low and forceful: Hey, bear! Ahhh! Get outta here!

Vision obscured by a clump of alder, Gilliland circles to his right. He yells to the others that he's going to take a warning shot. There is little reaction from the bear, which continues closing the distance between itself and Ellis -- then turns to go, but circles back, ears forward and staring. It's far too persistent -- either overly curious or aggressive That's it. Ellis shouts for Gilliland to take a shot if he has one. Gilliland replies that he doesn't. The bear moves into a window in the brush, still closing the distance, and Hill and Ellis open fire with their slug-loaded 12-gauge pump guns -- once each. The bear turns, giving Gilliland a momentary opening. He shoots twice. The bear falls and struggles to get up. Gilliland moves in and makes a killing shot to the base of the skull. Four dead now -- two people, two bears. No one takes comfort in the grim mathematical symmetry.

It's now after 6 p.m., the light fading and the weather deteriorating. Wind rattles in the alders, scattering leaves and ruffling the dark water of Kaflia Lake.

All three planes have an hour of flying ahead and will be landing on the water in near darkness. There's no time to do a necropsy on the dead bears -- open them up and see what's in the gastrointestinal tract, discover if they even have the bears involved in the predation. That job will have to wait for Fish and Game tomorrow, weather willing. It's a task better suited to trained biologists, anyway.

One by one, the three planes taxi east, turn, and roar down the lake in the dusk -- Ellis, Dalrymple and Gilliland in the Park Service Cessna 206, bound for King Salmon; troopers Jones and Hill in their Super Cub headed for Kodiak; and Willy Fulton in the Andrew Airways Beaver, alone with his gruesome load and his thoughts. Six men ride the currents of the sky, rising away from this place of darkness and death. But Kaflia will stir on its haunches and follow them the rest of their lives.

From "The Grizzly Maze" by Nick Jans. Reprinted by arrangement with Dutton, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Copyright 2005 by Nick Jans.

geekWithA.45
August 28, 2005, 12:18 PM
It seems to me that pruning the branch of bear evolution involving silent flanking maneuvers and human stalking is a good thing.

It also creepily reminds me of the man eater from Ghost in the Darkness.

I guess every so often, an animal just "goes wrong" and needs to be dealt with.

Rockstar
August 28, 2005, 12:27 PM
Every now and then, doper humans "go wrong" and take their girlfriends with them. ;)

larry starling
August 28, 2005, 12:51 PM
I saw the news clip of this guy and im sorry to hear they lost there lives. But I have to say I think there idiot's for what they were doing. I would never do somthing as stupid as what they done....It's sad, very sad..... :eek:

athlon64
August 28, 2005, 01:13 PM
The bears' exposure to Treadwell and girlfriend probably didn't help much for instilling any fear of humans. Perhaps Treadwell’s familiarity bred carelessness, and his luck ran out. He’s not the first, and won’t be the last.

hillbilly
August 28, 2005, 01:54 PM
I wonder exactly which part of "Hey you frickin' moron, that's a GRIZZLY BEAR!!!!" that failed to make an impression on Treadwell for all those years?

It's like the sad story recently of the high school senior-to-be who was taking her senior pictures with a tiger, because she thought it would be cool.

The tiger she was posing with decided she might make a tasty snack and mauled her to death.

It's like the scientist "proving" that bull sharks aren't unpredictable bloodthirsty predatory killers by wading with them, just seconds before one basically bit his lower leg away.

Them critters have big sharp pointy teeth for a reason..........

hillbilly

Cosmoline
August 28, 2005, 02:10 PM
After all is said and done, I still have to take my hat off to the coastal brownies of Katmai. If some Malibu hippy had decided to camp in my pad, take pictures of me eating and calling me "cudly boo", I would not have waited so many summers before dealing with the situation with extreme prejudice. Treadwell had a good killing coming in spades. And if the bruin had been put on trial instead of shot, I would have voted to acquit. The world and the bears are better off without Timothy Treadwell.

CARRY'IN
August 28, 2005, 02:31 PM
I believe it was a cover-up; he was killed by right wing conservatives for wanting to save the baby bears. I myself will be swimming with great white sharks off the Faralon islands next month and feeding them by hand. They will not harm me because they will sense I am one with the earth mother and mean them no harm. (Sorry Timothy, I had to.)

carebear
August 28, 2005, 02:37 PM
Carry'in,

Don't forget to take along a girlfriend. That's the manly thing to do, expose loved ones to danger.

boofus
August 28, 2005, 03:23 PM
He studied those bears for years but never did learn to respect them. Mother nature has a nasty surprise in store for any treehugger that thinks their imagined moral superiority makes them invincible.

armedandsafe
August 28, 2005, 03:28 PM
Charly was an eskimo/caucasion who had been born and raised in the cabin he lived in, on the banks of the little creek where he operated a series of small sluice claims. He used to come up to our comm site every couple of weeks to eat and do his laundry. When he didn't show up for about a month, we went down to see what was up. Two of us were experienced hunters and outdoorsmen. Three were city boys, working in Alaska, "for the adventure."

When we arrived at the cabin, Charly told us that there was a big, aged Barren Ground Grizzley, with a damaged jaw, prowling around the cabin. Charly was afraid to leave his cabin, even though he knew the bear from many years of seeing him around. We gathered up Charly and a few things and climbed out of the ravine to walk back to the comm center, about five miles and 2000 feet elevation up the mountain.

As we headed up the slope, I saw the bear slip around the other side of tha cabin and parallel us up the creek. I sent the others on their way and dropped back to the edge of the ravine at the back of the cabin. I had my 03A3 loaded with 220 Barnes and on half-safe. Looking over the edge of the ravine, I saw a 55-gal drum just below me, at the back corner of the cabin. I went to port arms and dropped off the edge onto the top of the drum. Catching my balance, I looked up to see the bear, standing on his hind legs, arms up and reaching for me. I instinctively whipped the rifle around and fired a shot. The bear dropped on me and knocked me and the drum over, pinning me under his chest and dropping his head on my chest, mouth drooling on my face. I assumed I was going to be bear food within a few minutes.

The other men and Charly came back to the cabin when they heard the shot and found me trapped under the bear. It took all of them to roll the bear off of me. My bullet had caught him under his chin and exited through the base of the skull.

I was very happy to walk five miles up the mountain with my wet pants full of s**t. I learned that in bear country, there can be two hunters. Only one of them will end up being prey.

Pops

CARRY'IN
August 28, 2005, 03:33 PM
I dont hunt bear but I went with a friend as "backup" once. We went up a mountain trail and then turned around and came right back down, finding fresh, HUGE, bear tracks following us up the trail. Who was hunting who?

j.tuohy
August 28, 2005, 04:01 PM
To some, a brother, friend or relative; to some a greenie, bunny hugger or looney... but to a hungry Brownie... an appetizer...

To bad he had to take someone else with him when he went but he at least learned his place on the food chain.

John "tramping the Alaskan Panhandle carrying a VERY big gun" Tuohy

MikeJackmin
August 28, 2005, 04:33 PM
These guys were lucky they didn't add one of their own to the causality list - I realize that real life can be messy, but this sounded tactically inept to me.

They did not maintain watch on their perimeter; their armament was marginal (where are the rifles?); they allowed one of their team to wander out of sight, alone.

Not good, guys.

carebear
August 28, 2005, 04:39 PM
Mike,

They weren't going in expecting to practice small unit tactics against insurgents, they were investigating a bear attack. Bear attacks involving predation from coastal browns are fairly uncommon, as is stalking behaviour. Typically they'll move off once they figure out you're a human, with the amount of activity they were kicking up there shouldn't have been a bear left within an acre.

In any event, I'm not sure if you are really familiar with the terrain and flora up here. Your perimeter is about as far as you can see, the "wall of green" is absolute at the edge of whatever clearing you are in. From the "trails" (not maintained old-growth lower 48 stuff, actual bear trails not more than a foot wide) you can literally see about arms length into the brush.

It's a whole nother world out there and the bears are like ghosts moving through it when they want to be.

CARRY'IN
August 28, 2005, 05:08 PM
Most of southeast Alaska is pretty dense most of the year. Bears are quiet and will hide behind bushes right next to you- most people never know they have been within a few feet of huge carnivores. I know, I have seen them do it from a helicopter several times.

MarkDido
August 28, 2005, 05:08 PM
Carry'in,

Don't forget to take along a girlfriend. That's the manly thing to do, expose loved ones to danger.

Wouldn't dream of taking my GF along.....

Wonder if my ex-wife would like to go? :evil:

WayneConrad
August 28, 2005, 05:55 PM
That is incredibly good writing, and an amazing story. Thanks for posting it, Preacherman.

By the way, the link accidently contains a "):" at the end. A frowny face seems appropriate for the subject matter.

Sindawe
August 28, 2005, 06:28 PM
Bear attacks involving predation from coastal browns are fairly uncommon, as is stalking behaviour. I have to wonder if the stalking behavior and predation is a recently learned/thunk up pattern by the bears, as a response to more people in the area.

CARRY'IN
August 28, 2005, 06:44 PM
Bear attacks involving predation from coastal browns are fairly uncommon, as is stalking behaviour.

Bears are predators. Predators stalk. Like most predators, even eating machines like sharks, Bears dont just attack anything- they go after what they know and will not jump on something strange or what they know will hurt them. People are generally strange and dangerous to bears. But you start trying to be one of the family and you will wear out this partial immunity eventually. I find it hard to believe this guy did not understand that female bears will rip apart anything that gets near their cubs and male bears will automatically try and kill other bears in their territory (it is how they control their population). So if you become "one of the family" you are asking for it.

VaughnT
August 28, 2005, 07:52 PM
While it was an interesting read, and scary-similar to the Ghost and the Darkness, I can't find any sympathy for either of the dead people. If anything, I'm sad that the bears got killed for their actions.

This reminds me of the vidclip I found on another website of a tourist in Africa getting out of a safari-car to get better video of a pride of lions eating a gazelle. The worst part of that vid was seeing his family/friends as they watched him get killed and eaten right in front of them. It was gruesome, but you can't fault the lions for doing what God designed them to do.



Oh, did I mention that I got to shoot a Marlin levergun in .45-70 today? What a great experience, and very surprising in how the OEM porting cut the recoil. I have to buy one. :D

Cosmoline
August 28, 2005, 08:01 PM
I'm not sure where folks get the idea that bears don't know what people are. The bruins are not stupid. They know all about people and have been living side by side with them for ten thousand years. They can adapt rapidly to human behavior. In the National Parks where they cannot be hunted they tend to be far bolder and more comfortable around people. Likewise, around Anchorage they can be very bold. On state and forest service lands where they can be hunted they are far more skittish and will usually high tail it at the first scent of a person.

Ryder
August 28, 2005, 08:09 PM
wonder if the stalking behavior and predation is a recently learned

The locals warned him not to go there at that time of the year. It was later in the season than he had previous experience with. The locals knew what would happen so predatory behaviour at that time of year is nothing new or learned by bears.

He ignored those warnings and it's possible the female he dragged along was not informed of this elevated potential for danger. Very selfish on his part and if true then he is nothing less than a murderer in my opinion.

JohnKSa
August 28, 2005, 08:26 PM
Someone told me a video camera was running during the attack. It was dropped early on, but there was supposedly audio.

Anyone else hear this?

lysander
August 28, 2005, 09:07 PM
Treadwell's sin was hubris. It is a common thread found amongst the "greens" and it permeates their entire ethos. There is a level of arrogance that goes along with the idea that mankind is "ruining the globe" for all the trees, the fuzzy bunnies, the pretty fish and the harmless giant predators. It is an arrogant idea, because in order for their hypothesis to be true one must believe that mankind is somehow separate from the system; that mankind is an "outside influence" rather than an integral part of the complex natural world. The reality is that man merely sits at the top of the pyramid. He does not reside outside of the pyramid. He isn't ruining the food chain...HE IS PART OF THE FOOD CHAIN. All living creatures change and affect their environment (termites, ants, beavers, birds, etc.) mankind just happens to be the best at it...and when we have gotten so good at it (changing our environment) and done so much of it that we threaten the delicate balance which sustains our vast numbers....nature will self correct somehow, (disease, war caused by competition for scare resources, famine, etc) our numbers will contract and we will end up as the biomass starter kit for the crude oil being pumped out of the ground by the intelligent descendants of present day gerbils....

Treadwell's lack of respect for the laws of nature and the wild led to a horrific death for himself, his girlfriend and at least two bears. A shame....

Staying relevant to the purpose of THR...any doubts about a slug gun's close range terminal performance should be laid to rest.

Hardware
August 28, 2005, 09:11 PM
I am reminded of a native american legend that Bear was created so that man would have something to fear. I am also reminded of tales of mountain men who went hand to hand with Grizzlies and won by stabbing into the gut of the bear and disembowling him as the bear savaged their back. Those mountain men were tough! :what:

These grizzlies were displaying behavior typical of rogue black bears from the northeast. I was always told if you see a black bear, holler and make all kinds of racket, if the bear takes a step toward you it thinks you are lunch. Makes me think these bears had probably seen too many humans. They were no longer unsure of themselves and decided to see if the humans were tasty.

Preacherman
August 28, 2005, 09:44 PM
WayneConrad, thanks for the heads-up about the link. I've fixed it.

JohnKSa
August 28, 2005, 09:54 PM
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200401/200401_blood_brothers_1.html"Treadwell's video camera (its lens cap still on) yielded a six-minute audio recording, illuminating all too vividly the last moments of two people trying to save each other's life. It starts with Treadwell investigating a bear that has come into camp. Something goes wrong, and the bear attacks him. "I'm getting killed!" he screams. Huguenard, still in the tent, tells him to play dead, and for a minute the bear backs off, suggesting that the initial attack was not predatory. But the grizzly returns, and Huguenard comes to Treadwell's aid. In his last words, he yells to her to save herself."http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/09/1065676096195.html?from=storyrhs"Mr Wilkinson said the tape begins with sounds of Mr Treadwell screaming that he is being attacked and calling for help to 37-year-old Ms Huguenard, who was apparently still inside a tent. "It's obvious that the attack was going on before the tape was turned on," said Mr Wilkinson, who quoted from the tapes.

"Come out here; I'm being killed out here," Mr Treadwell said. "Play dead!" Ms Huguenard yelled in reply.

That strategy is commonly used to pacify angry bears in an attack. But Mr Treadwell told Ms Huguenard the strategy was not working and she urged him to "fight back".

Mr Treadwell, who never carried weapons, then asked her to get a pan and to hit the bear, police said. At that point, the tape - much of it fuzzy and inaudible, stops, Mr Wilkinson said."Sounds like he had some clear moments there at the end. Too bad they didn't come before he convinced his girlfriend to accompany him into bear country armed with a pan.

It's also interesting that many of the articles I found while searching for the above quotes painted Treadwell as some sort of hero... I guess I wasn't really expecting that--maybe I should have.

Hawkmoon
August 28, 2005, 09:55 PM
Makes me think these bears had probably seen too many humans. They were no longer unsure of themselves and decided to see if the humans were tasty.
Worse than that -- by the time the pilot and the rangers arrived, the bears already knew that humans were tasty.

myrockfight
August 28, 2005, 10:10 PM
"Even his friends worried—they thought he should carry bear spray. But after blasting one charging bear, Cupcake, with pepper spray in 1995, Treadwell refused."

-quote from above article in "Outside" magazine.


This guy made a choice ten years ago. If it came down to him getting eaten or even pepper-spraying a bear, much less killing it, to save his own life - he would let it attack him.

His choice. Simple as that.


People make indirect choices to sacrifice their lives all the time. Fate is just forgiving and rarely calls people out on those choices. Every once in a while it does and you see a well defined and obvious case. This is one of them. Take note. It happens.

Cosmoline
August 28, 2005, 10:18 PM
Yes, there was an audio record from the video camera. But it's been sealed. Someone will probably bring a FOIA request and get whatever copy the Park Service has, if they haven't done this already.

. I am also reminded of tales of mountain men who went hand to hand with Grizzlies and won by stabbing into the gut of the bear and disembowling him as the bear savaged their back. Those mountain men were tough

Gene Moe got into a hand-to-hand fight with a sow brownie and disabled her by stabbing her multiple times. IIRC he finished her with a rifle, but if I didn't know it happened I would never have believed it possible. There are some rough customers up here.

p35
August 29, 2005, 03:18 PM
Peter Capstick made a remark in one of his books about the mistake of thinking that "the God-like gift of human affection" will turn a predator into a pussycat. He was referring to African lions, but it's the same mistake Treadwell made. He regularly filmed himself petting bears and talking baby talk to them, among other dumb stunts. Bears are what they are, and I doubt they care much whether humans love them or not. Their main interest in life is food, and if a smaller animal isn't dangerous it's a candidate for dinner. By teaching them that he wasn't dangerous, Treadwell made himself dinner.

Hey, I love wildlife, and I would have voted against killing the bear that did this if I had been asked. It's better for all concerned, though, to encourage grizzlies and other potentially dangerous animals to fear humans.

FWIW, it appears that they shot the responsible bear in self defense, not in retaliation for Treadwell's death. Makes sense to me.

thrifty7
August 29, 2005, 03:25 PM
One thing is clear to me. If more aggressive bears are killed, fewer of these incidents will occur. Its called natural selection. It is absolutely not necessary to kill enough bears to significantly reduce their population--just killing off the most aggressive one percent will greatly reduce the incidents of human predation.

p35
August 29, 2005, 03:42 PM
I don't know that killing off 1% would be the way to go- bear's moods change a lot and one that's aggressive one day might act like a French general the next. My suggestion would that any bear that shows curiosity about humans (as opposed to crossing paths with humans while going about its business) gets shot in the butt with a load of rock salt, unpopped popcorn, or whatever (there's a thread somewhere on this). Get them to associate humans with loud noises and pain, and they won't be so curious the next time. They do this a lot in the lower 48 using firecrackers and Karelian bear dogs, and the majority of problem bears don't come back.

Cosmoline
August 29, 2005, 03:58 PM
The natives in the SW bush will give unwelcome griz a "belly ache" with a load of shot or a .223. I wouldn't suggest trying this at home, but the fact is there are very few maulings of natives.

Carl N. Brown
August 29, 2005, 04:00 PM
This is a case of green, eco-friendly ideology running blindly smack
dab into a solid brick wall of reality.

Bears are not Disney cartoon characters or a our hairy woodland
brothers: they are large predatory animals that react by instinct,
not by emotion or reason.

You do not disrespect predators on their home turf with impunity.
And by not treating these animals as predators, he was disrespecting
them. It is too bad he lulled his girlfriend into a false sense of security.

And the Big Media are portraying this idiot as a hero?

p35
August 29, 2005, 04:09 PM
Wouldn't gut-shooting a griz with a .223 lead to a lingering death for the bear? Do the natives not care, or am I missing something?

50 Freak
August 29, 2005, 04:20 PM
I myself will be swimming with great white sharks off the Faralon islands next month and feeding them by hand. They will not harm me because they will sense I am one with the earth mother and mean them no harm. (Sorry Timothy, I had to.)

You too???? I'm doing the same thing next week. Am bringing the family also and plan to chum the water as we all go in for a dip. Hopefully we can swim with the great whites. They will not hurt us cause they will feel the love an respect we have for them. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Damn tree hugger. He made his choice, he got the short end of the stick. I feel sorry for the poor girl he convinced to come along.

Am reminded of a story of a bear up in Shasta Co. Hunters tried killing him for years. When he finally died from LEAD POISONING. They skinned him and removed a jar worth of led bullets. Everything from 308 to 45-70.

If I go bear hunting, I'm bring a cut down Barrett semi. :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

Hawkmoon
August 29, 2005, 04:40 PM
One thing is clear to me. If more aggressive bears are killed, fewer of these incidents will occur. Its called natural selection. It is absolutely not necessary to kill enough bears to significantly reduce their population--just killing off the most aggressive one percent will greatly reduce the incidents of human predation.
"Natural selection"? Go to the back of the class, and repeat the first semester. In any system of natural selection, it's the biggest, strongest, toughest, meanest, baddest, most aggresive bears that survive, and it's the cupcakes that don't. Killing the most aggresive runs 180 degrees counter to "natural selection."

This entire situation had nothing to do with "nature" anyway. Treadwell interfered with nature, by teaching bears not to fear humanoids, and probably even encouraging them to venture in close proximity to his campsite. That's just not very intelligent. As others have rightly pointed out, once the bears figured out the Treadwell wasn't a threat, he became an entree.

I'll bet he was a vegetarian. And that reminds me of what a young friend from the hinterlands of central PA has often said: "SALAD!? Salad isn't food. Salad is what food eats!"

PATH
August 29, 2005, 04:42 PM
I guess Mr. Treadwll forgot the adage of "sometimes you get the bear and sometimes he gets you". Does the term "loaded for bear" ring a bell.

Well if you want your name to be "Dances with Bears" that's fine. Just remember it may quickly change to "Feeds the Bears". You just can't make this stuff up! :rolleyes:

joab
August 29, 2005, 05:18 PM
Tredwells stuppidity created the most dangerous animal on the planet, a wild predator that has lost all fear of man.

He is already responsible for the death of 1 human and 2 bears.

How many more may turn up later due to his conditioning other bears to not fear man

He did said somewhere that he would be honored if he was eaten by a bear

Mongo the Mutterer
August 29, 2005, 07:33 PM
This post got me interested in this dude Treadwell. Googled him.

Lived in Malibu... Made me question... too much money? too much time?

I know too much hubris.

Joab, you are right on about the predator... I hope the "rescuers" destroyed the right bears. If not, others will be at risk.

If you haven't seen what the moonbats at Cornell have come up with ... introducing African predators (cheetahs, lions and the sort) to our American West go here, (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153125)

joab
August 29, 2005, 08:33 PM
Lived in Malibu... Made me question... too much money? too much time? Recovering drug addict I believe. If I remember correctly he was a bohemian type

Cosmoline
August 29, 2005, 09:17 PM
I'm going to swing over and catch Herzog's documentary about him tonight. I expect the Anchorage audience to be laughing its head off from the previews I've seen. It's worth it just to see an old Malibu hippy ranting about how he is the samurai warrior protecting these bear.

Can'thavenuthingood
August 29, 2005, 10:10 PM
Well if you want your name to be "Dances with Bears" that's fine. Just remember it may quickly change to "Feeds the Bears". You just can't make this stuff up!

I think "Passes through bears" is a better name.

Yup, he killed 2 bears he was trying to save. And how many more will die just being true to their nature due to his training them?

Vick

torpid
August 29, 2005, 10:20 PM
Et tu, Boo-Boo?
:(

.

joab
August 29, 2005, 11:06 PM
Et tu, Boo-Boo?

Now thats about the funniest thing I've heard all week

Harry Tuttle
August 29, 2005, 11:19 PM
32 threads mention ole Timmy on THR:
http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=656987

heres the early report:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=43584
Bear suspected of killing two people in Katmai National Park
Bodies of man and woman from California found by pilot

The Associated Press

(Published: October 7, 2003)


KING SALMON -- A man and a woman were fatally mauled in a bear attack in Katmai National Park and Preserve - the first known bear killings in the 4.7-million-acre park, National Park Service officials said Tuesday.

The bodies were found near Kaflia Bay on Monday when a pilot with Andrew Airways arrived to pick them up and take them to Kodiak, Alaska State Troopers said. The park is on the Alaska Peninsula.

The pilot saw a bear, possibly on top of a body, in the camp and contacted the Park Service in King Salmon and troopers in Kodiak.

4v50 Gary
August 29, 2005, 11:36 PM
I saw the trailer at a theatre. Treadwell was extremely arrogant in exclaiming, "Only I can protect the bears!" He went on boasting, "I will die for them." Now I have to see the film. It may be the comedy of the year. :p

Rockstar
August 30, 2005, 12:09 AM
Saw a documentary about the event a couple of weeks ago. Key information was that the bear that did the eating was an old bear, and the time of year was such that bear food stocks (not counting humans) were scarce. Treadwell was warned many times by professionals to stop his foolishness. Woman with him must have been an airhead, or she wouldn't have been the woman with him.

Too bad the bears had to die.

Sindawe
August 30, 2005, 12:12 AM
Cupcake? CUPCAKE?! What sort of mind names a large, dangerous predator after a freaking baked snack? :banghead: Even my (mostly) harmless housecats are named after heroes and warriors. Visiters are cautioned to "mind the teeth and claws, they do bite and scratch".

VaughnT: I've been in lust with that round/rifle since I first shot one in the late 1990s. I've been saving for this modification (http://www.wildwestguns.com/CoPilot_And_Guide_Rifles/body_copilot_and_guide_rifles.html) for awhile now. *SIGH*

birddog
August 30, 2005, 11:09 AM
This entire situation had nothing to do with "nature" anyway.

I don't know. I understand what you're saying, but I personally think this is a PRIME example of nature: Uncaring, forceful, and may the strongest species win. By "strongest", I mean to say that men are generally stronger than bears, because we are armed with our big brains and that big brain generally should dictate that, when in the company of bears, you go loaded for bear.

I think that bear/those bears, just implemented a little natural selection, removing a few more ignorant genes from OUR pool. That is not to say, we should gloat over Treadwell's death, whether or not his life was misguided.

CAS700850
August 30, 2005, 11:39 AM
These two were fully informed and made the decision to go study these animals up close and personal. I cannot fault them this choice, any more than I fault any biologist. IN fact, I can admire their courage for choosing this animal, and undertaking the dangers associated with the study, such as the remote location, the rugged lifestyle, etc. I disagree with their choice to not only go alone (just the 2 of them) but also apparently unarmed.

Personally, when a buddy and I were just planning a camping trip in bear country, we planned on taking his two M-1 Garands, a slug loaded shotgun, and a .44 Mag. revolver for predator protection, including bears and cougars, on top of the fun guns (.22's and .38/.357's). But, that's just us.

Dr.Rob
August 30, 2005, 12:56 PM
Anyone else notice the rangers found food INSIDE the tent?

Big dang no-no in bear country.

Notice also the bush pilot is REQUIRED BY LAW to have a shotgun on board? talk about friendly skies.

In the previews for the documentary (which you MIGHT want to see anyway) Treadwell comes across as a bit 'unbalanced' to say the least... if not outright psychotic. Have you seen his 'video diaries?' Treadwell was recovering from years of drug and alchohol abuse... but I'd guess (based on my limited experience with manic depressives) that Timothy indeed had some mental health issues aside from his previous problems with drugs and alchohol.

While showing the 'raw nature of man and beast' the director seems to be showing Treadwell untimately did himself in... there may actually be positive backlash from this film yet.

And I don't mean another wave of 'friends of the bears' running naked through Alaska to commune with wildlife in the form of 'slow food.'

Maybe just maybe... the film will show Treadwell in the proper light... a well meaning if ultimately misguided figure done in by his own demons, self destructive and self centered to the end, the real tragedy is that he "chose" the bears as his suicide tool. And in the end, based on audio evidence even he was having second thoughts about it being 'a great way to die.'

carebear
August 30, 2005, 05:15 PM
To be precise. It's just a firearm that's required, among other survival tools. Not necessarily a shotgun.

A lot of guys just carry a .22 to ensure bunnys and ptarmigan for the pot.

spacemanspiff
August 30, 2005, 05:25 PM
i go loaded for the whole she-bang:
ghost-repellant
bear-repellant
whiteshark-repellant
salmonshark-repellant
mosquito-repellant
tourist-repellant
purplepeopleeater-repellant


okay, so one gun does all that, the winchester 1300 defender. but whatevers out there, i'm ready for it!! we'll drag carebear along cause he's good at the domestic stuff, like cleaning up camp, and shooting ptarmigan or grouse for supper. plus he sets up camp in this whole feng-shui-modern-retro style that is just to die for!

:neener:

carebear
August 30, 2005, 05:35 PM
I'm tired of you tracking dirt on my fresh swept dirt.

Biker
August 30, 2005, 06:09 PM
I worked at the local zoo for a few months this year in the carnivore section and after working with the two grizz, I'm more scared of 'em than ever. We have two, a male and a female. The female, Stripes, is extremely intelligent. At least twice a day, after feedings, she would always reach outside her bars and check to see if we locked the padlocks. Her speed is amazing and she seemed to spend her time thinking of ways to mess with the zookeepers. She loved to grab the hose we used to clean her cage with, given a chance. The last time she succeded, one of our zookeepers was afraid that she would get sick from the rubber and pepper sprayed her in hopes of driving her away from the hose.
She got mad. Reeeeaaaalllll mad. She didn't run, just tried to get at her tormenter. I wasn't sure that she couldn't break through the bars. I hope that the grizz is always out there, but I never want to be within two mountains of one and I'm not at all sure of any 12G slug taking one down before it takes you down. JMO....
Biker

Randy in Arizona
August 30, 2005, 07:09 PM
These two were fully informed and made the decision to go study these animals up close and personal.


CAS,

It don't get more "up close and personal" than from the inside! :what:

For those offended by my humor, :neener: :neener: :neener:

Lucky
August 30, 2005, 07:34 PM
"Anyone else notice the rangers found food INSIDE the tent?"

I didn't want to bring it up, either, because they said it was ready for eating. Maybe it was raining and they dug out some food and were going to eat lunch in the tent.

But I wouldn't want trouble like that, on an island crawling with bears! We were told to string a rope between 2 trees, and hang our food in the middle of that - as far away from camp as you can manage. Same with bathroom duties, far away I mean, no rope. These guys had food in the tent and food cans kicking around the camp.

But hell I'm paranoid and string up a perimeter wire.

spacemanspiff
August 30, 2005, 07:45 PM
pish posh!!!! everyone knows that if timmy had grown out a tactical beard he'd still be alive today because those ninja bears would have been swiping and trying to chomp on his scruffy beard instead of his head or throat.

stevelyn
August 31, 2005, 06:11 AM
Get them to associate humans with loud noises and pain......

I live a little further down the coast than Katmai, but we have just as many if not more bears in our area.
Every spring it's the same thing bears come out of their dens and start dumpster diving in town until the salmon start moving into the creeks.
Our method is to dump a load of #4 steel shot into their backsides from about 25 to 35 yrds away as they are (hopefully :uhoh: ) retreating from our presence. Any farther the shot dosen't seem to have the desired affect, any closer your are risking injury to the bear. Ones that receive a good solid hit don't come back for a second engagement.
However, there exceptions. Injured and sick bears will not avoid an easy meal even if they've been burned before simply because in nature's cruel world a sick or injured bear can't compete with healthy bears for limited food. Young misfit bears just kicked out on their own tend to go for easier food sources. Then there is the rare rogue bear that predates on anything an everything.
In the past four years, we've had to kill only three. One was misfit two years ago that apeared to be starving and had been run out of the dump by other bears. After the third load of steel in him within a week, we decided he need to go away. A Brenneke slug ended it.
Two were this year and were sibling cubs about 150lbs each. They were originally part of a litter of three cubs. All healthy when first seen. At some point we saw the sow favoring her front leg and limping badly. We theorized that she had gotten into a fight with a boar that tried to kill off the cubs and was injured in the process. As time went on we stopped seeing the sow, but the cubs started making frequent visits. Steel shot loads mades them go away for awhile then one showed up injured favoring its front leg.
At first this one made the attempt to avoid human contact when moving from the mountain to the beach. As time went she then started digging in trash, and frequenting homes. A couple more attempts to discourage her were tried. I got a decent hit on her while she retreated and thought that would take care of the problem.
The next morning she was reported in the back of someone's pickup. By the time I arrived she had bailed out and went into a neighbor's yard. I attempted to intercept her and do the steel shot thing one last time. However, went I went to where I thought she would come out next to another house. I underestimated her speed and cut the corner too close to the house and we met face to face about 12-15ft away. Rather than turning to run she let out a loud hiss and charged. She had taken one bound and landed, crouching for another when I shot her from about 8 ft or so away with the steel shot load that I had intended to sting her with. The shot turned her and she ran away from me. I followed up with a 00Buck load which disabled her, but still required a slug to finish. Her sibling was killed a few days later under similar circumstances.
Both had injuries consistent with being in fights. Strangely enough, the right front leg on both bears had been broken and swollen to 3-4 times their normal size. Both exhibited claw marks and and bald patches on their hide where they'd been bitten. Both were female.
Point is we have dozens of bear encounters out here every year. We try and instill fear of humans in them from the first encounter. Normally we use up a box of steel(it's not just for ducks anymore)shot on them before they den for the winter. Of course not every shot is a hit either.

Sorry to jack the thread, but one thought kinda led to another. :o

Mongo the Mutterer
August 31, 2005, 06:44 AM
Sorry to jack the thread, but one thought kinda led to anotherExcellent post, and great stories. Thanks.

280PLUS
August 31, 2005, 07:12 AM
Wow, great read! This warmed my heart: The rangers grab first aid gear and two Remington Model 870 pump shotguns -- preferred for their sure, nonjamming actions All the more reason to love mine. :D

Nice rifle Sindawe, I think I want one too after reading all this... :what: :eek:

I'll be hiding under my bed if anybody wants me...

:p

Onmilo
August 31, 2005, 08:48 AM
Bears eat humans!!??
Well whataya know,,,,,,,,,,, :rolleyes:

gulogulo1970
January 19, 2006, 03:10 PM
I saw Grizzly Man last night. I recommend it.

I will have to say that I had little respect for Mr. Treadwell before I saw the movie, now I have much less respect for him. The man was at best insane, at worst a fool.

I thought at first that he was a naturalist pushing his luck. But after seeing the movie he had a very slippery grasp on what bears/nature really are all about. And after 13 years of observing them there is just no excuse, except for being crazy, which after seeing the movie looks more and more likely.

I hate to bring back an old thread but I cannot stop thinking about what I saw on that DVD. I really cannot comprehend that kind of ignorance or maybe just recklessness when it comes to the value of his own life. The movie almost proves that what he did was almost a self-fufilling prophesy.

If you want to see insanity on parade rent this movie.

Carl N. Brown
January 19, 2006, 04:08 PM
Treadwell was not guilty of hubris as some have claimed.
He was guilty of having no point of contact with reality.
The man was living in a fantasy world inside his head,
with grizzly bears walking the real world around him.

Frandy
January 19, 2006, 04:23 PM
I happened to see it last night myself. What amazes me is that he lasted 13 seasons out there! Now THAT'S amazing. :what:

pete f
January 19, 2006, 05:22 PM
A good friend of my father's ( and i have heard her tell the story first hand) was sitting in the outhouse when the door was yanked off by a large Sow) she screamed and just held her hand out like she was pushing it away. the bear Chomped on her arm to pull her out but she had on some large fur mittens, and the bear stripped that off her arm. (along with some skin) and it tried to swallow the mitten but it was stuck in its throat. The Woman took off running for the house and screaming loud and strong the whole way there. She made it with the bear still struggling in the yard. after a hour or so the hubby went out Armed and the wife had a big light, the bear was motionless in the back yard. Upon approaching it they discovered the bear dead apparently choked to death by the mitten which stuck firmly in its throat. I do not remember where they lived but it was out towards the aleutian islands. They were missionary Doctors.

Werewolf
January 19, 2006, 05:22 PM
Someone told me a video camera was running during the attack. It was dropped early on, but there was supposedly audio.

Anyone else hear this?Some bleeding heart has published a book or made a movie or something about Treadwell. NPR did a review of it this weekend and interviewed the author.

Yes there was a camera. Yes it was on. The lens cap was also on. Yes there was audio - pretty gruesome according to the book's author who wouldn't talk about it. No it will not be released. The owner of the tape who owns the rights to Treadwell's estate refuses and won't even listen to the tape.

According to the guy being interviewed Treadwell was a reformed alcoholic and druggie. He was also a Hollywood wannabee who didn't make it which is why he took up the documentary stuff he did. Treadwell him self, according to the author, claimed that his work with bears saved his life. Kinda ironic huh?

Like another poster stated I feel more sorry for the bears. They were just doing what they were programmed to do. Treadwell was just being stupid.

So now the human gene pool is a little cleaner and the bear gene pool just a little shallower.

Like I always say:
Darwin always WINS!

gulogulo1970
January 19, 2006, 05:23 PM
I happened to see it last night myself. What amazes me is that he lasted 13 seasons out there! Now THAT'S amazing. :what:


Very true, that's why I think he was crazy but not stupid. He wouldn't have lasted so long. Luck wouldn't have been enough for that amount of time.

joab
January 19, 2006, 05:43 PM
The owner of the tape who owns the rights to Treadwell's estate refuses and won't even listen to the tape.I've heard the tape it was posted here awhile back.
She was scraming and he wanted her to hit the bear with a frying pan

Thain
January 19, 2006, 05:44 PM
NOW this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky...
MAN-EATING PREDATORS KILL PEOPLE!

Stupid, stupid Californians...

outofbattery
January 19, 2006, 05:47 PM
I HIGHLY suggest going down to the rental store and picking up Grizzly Man to watch.I had seen him many times on Animal Planet,The Discovery Channel and so on but they never showed how truly detached the guy was.How he reacted to the fisherman,to seeing the fox cub killed by the wolves and especially:he himself saw that when the bears were hungry,they would kill and eat cubs but still saw himself as special.It's really something else to watch.Speaking of watch,that thing really did take a licking and keep on ticking:what:

Herself
January 19, 2006, 06:37 PM
I had seen early footage of Treadwell on Animal Planet or another cable channel and concluded he was another Victim of Disney, believing that all animals were just big fuzzy pets inside, needing merely to be awakened by our love. In short, an idiot. The cable science-and-nature channels run about 50/50 on annoying me but he was way off the scale.

An hour's drive from where I live, there is a private facility that cares for former "pet" big cats, mostly lions and tigers, that have outgrown the equally Disneyfied types who thought to make pets of them. The folks who run it are quite fond of big cats but aren't under any illusions about them being oversized housecats. They're open to the public but very un-zoo-like: between you and the cats is nothing but a sturdy chain-link fence, 20' high and with telephone poles for fence poles, along with your own good sense. The guides caution vistors to not get too close. These cats were raised by people, many of them in people's homes and are very comfortable humans; many lay right up against the fence, or pace you as you walk by, and the tigers will "chuff" in greeting.

But they're very aware that we're made of meat. They're not pet kitties; even the keepers are careful to avoid giving them a chance for a taste. They get regular meals of roadkill and the like, so mostly, they think the humans are more interesting than tasty. Mostly.

Walking by one enclosure, it looked empty, nothing but typical midwestern weeds a couple feet high inside the fence. My husband was a ways behind me. As I passed, behind me, an enormous tiger appeared from the weeds, watching.... How does an orange and black cat as long as a small car hide in a couple of feet of green underbrush? Very well!*

Big predators are beautiful to look at and must be a challenge to hunt, but only an idiot tries to make pets out of 'em. They are happy to eat things about our size, most of which are faster than humans. And while they can be quite clever, they're not thinking very many meals ahead. You're tasty now!

The degree of self-deception that allows people to think they can just play around with such animals stuns me.

...And I may have to rethink visiting Alaska. Tigers on the other side of even a nominal fence are one thing. Bears face to face is another!

--Herself
_________________________________
* The cats are kept in groups, one bunch per enclosure. In each enclosure is a large cattle-watering tank filled with water and in every enclosure with tigers in it, there really was a "tiger in the tank." Unlike the gas-commercial image, they looked anything but fast and energetic. Most of the tanked tigers were dozing!

Raph84
January 19, 2006, 08:20 PM
I definitely need to check out the documentary.
Was there any mention of any odd theories about bear behavior, I seem to recall hearing that Treadwell thought that he knew more about bears than bear experts and I would imagine that helped lead to his demise.

I recently read into the wild, and I learned a few important things that I think are relevant here:
1. Do not gamble against nature even if you win a few hands you will eventually lose.
2. If you decide to play at being part of nature then don't be surprised if it moves quickly out of your comfort zone...and it may be too late to do anything about it but die.
3. Alaska can be a tough place. If you wonder if it is tougher than you can handle, it more than likely is.

Logan5
January 20, 2006, 02:49 AM
Basically, all bears are somewhat interested in eating you, and a bear's only friend is another bear. You try to make friends with a bear, it's the bear equivalent of a Burger King commercial. Polarfleece and meat and Gore Tex and meat and cheese and Tectron and meat... I recall being on a rafting trip in Alaska where we split up to do hikes, and seeing a big one trailing a hiking party up an adjacent ridge.
Are 12 Gauge rifled slugs really the answer to this kind of situation? About 10 years back I had my eye on a pre '64 Winchester 70 in .375 H&H, but a guy who was moving to Alaska snatched it out from under me. Since then, I note the sales of .45-70 and .480 lever guns, and things like the 1895 Winchester .405 reissue... 12 Gauge rifled slugs seem to be what people carry when they figure there's not going to be a problem, but then there is; What bearhunters carry when they're not hunting bear, if you will.

QuickDraw
January 20, 2006, 03:40 AM
NOW this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky...
MAN-EATING PREDATORS KILL PEOPLE!

Stupid, stupid Californians...

Stupid,stupid, wherever your from :neener:

QuickDraw

1911 guy
January 20, 2006, 12:16 PM
He made extremely bad decisions, dragged his GF into it, got himself and her both killed and is lionized by other idiots who don't know any more about the real world than he did. Oh, and the bears he supposedly cared for so much? Dead. Because of him. Him and others like him give anyone who actually cares and knows about the few wild places left a bad name. Let me reitterate. He was a jackass.

zippo8
January 20, 2006, 12:47 PM
and is lionized This term got me to thinking.

I think a new term should be created just for him ... bearized.

Tory
January 20, 2006, 12:51 PM
make that "ursufied!" :D

1911Tuner
January 20, 2006, 01:51 PM
Herself...Excellent commentary! Kudos.

Waitone
January 20, 2006, 02:46 PM
Mother Nature is a Bitch. Those who ignore or forget it are destined for a short life and painful death.

All out of sympathy for the stoopid.

Templar223
January 20, 2006, 03:42 PM
You guys and gals offering possible reasons for the attack have missed the single most likely reason the bear(s) attacked the couple.

But first, I must say that I only wish more tree huggers would go out and camp with the bears. Or do similarly stupid things. Talk about just desserts for some kooks out of touch with the real world. Just because you saw a show on the Discovery Channel about "living with bears" doesn't make you an expert.

Enough with the digression.

The most likely reason the bear(s) suddenly turned on Mr. Fedwell and his girlfriend would be the onset of the girlfriend's menstrual period. Bears and other animals can smell that a mile away (pun intended).

Several knowledgeable folks I've spoken with on this all came to the same conclusion, independently: the girl got her period and Mr. Bruin smelled it and got all weird because she was in heat.

Guys: never take your loved ones of the fairer sex out in the wilds with predatory animals if they MIGHT even get their period. Same applies for swimming in the ocean. There's no reason to effectively tie a proverbial pork-chop around your loved-one's neck when it comes to predators.

Even if you're armed and prepared (or think you're prepared), the best way to win a gun battle is to avoid it!

John

** Edit to spell 'menstrual' correctly!

Carl N. Brown
January 20, 2006, 04:07 PM
That video ought to have a caveat:

Kids, don't try this at home, or outdoors, or anywhere.

1911Tuner
January 20, 2006, 04:38 PM
Can't make a call on Carl's comment, but it makes sense. One thing I CAN tell ya is to keep'em away from the local zoo's "Monkey Island" during that time.

Whew!

Biker
January 20, 2006, 05:05 PM
My *dogs* know. No joke...
Biker

Satch
January 20, 2006, 05:07 PM
There was a thing on the news when he was found dead about his life with the bears,and how he would come back to the lower 48 and give talks at schools about his life with them and how "gentil" they could be. The people living in that area he stayed always told him to be careful and that ypou can't trust the bears. Some people refuse to take advice from those that know.

taliv
January 20, 2006, 05:39 PM
i can't get overly worked up about this. i don't know that the guy was oblivious. more likely, he was just taking a calculated risk. playing the odds. and maybe he was semi-suicidal... tempting fate on purpose. who knows? who cares? afaik, he's no different than siegfried/roy whatever. live by the sword, die by the sword. if you make your living sticking your head in tigers' mouths... well, what can I say?


btw, biker, did you hear about the new harleys being gas/electric hybrids?

Biker
January 20, 2006, 05:43 PM
btw, biker, did you hear about the new harleys being gas/electric hybrids?[/QUOTE]

??? News to me!
:confused:
Biker

taliv
January 20, 2006, 05:48 PM
just kidding :)

Biker
January 20, 2006, 05:55 PM
You Richard Head!:)
Biker

Phyphor
January 20, 2006, 06:03 PM
You Richard Head!:)
Biker

<threadjack>

I was just picturing the weight that new electro-hybrid motor system would take up... you'd need a titanium frame for both motors and the batteries... not to mention the width... :what:

</threadjack>

Biker
January 20, 2006, 06:21 PM
~Nightmares tonight~

:(

Biker

carebear
January 21, 2006, 05:05 PM
The most likely reason the bear(s) suddenly turned on Mr. Fedwell and his girlfriend would be the onset of the girlfriend's menstrual period. Bears and other animals can smell that a mile away (pun intended).

Several knowledgeable folks I've spoken with on this all came to the same conclusion, independently: the girl got her period and Mr. Bruin smelled it and got all weird because she was in heat.

Actually, Herrera and Kaniut both point out in their books that the actual studies of bear attacks (which is admittedly a small enough sample to make statistics dicey) show no correlation between menstruation and bear attacks.

It's kind of a wilderness myth.

ronaford
January 29, 2006, 11:59 PM
I did see the DVD, Grizzly Man last night and found it disturbing. This man, Timothy Treadwell, was obviously mentally ill to get so close to wild bears. So many in this world if not all of us in some way or another somewhat mad as well, just watch the news every night. It was a tragedy in all respects and very sad. What really makes me wonder though, is the incredible lack of compassion for this individual and his girlfriend. Were they wrong to be there, of course! I personally feel sad that his mental illness took him down this path and an unfortunate innocent as well.

Perhaps if we cared a little more for those that are struggling with inner termoil and sadness, we would have fewer tragic stories to write about.

ronaford
January 30, 2006, 12:02 AM
[QUOTE=ronaford]I did see the DVD, Grizzly Man last night and found it disturbing. This man, Timothy Treadwell, was obviously mentally ill to get so close to wild bears. So many in this world if not all of us in some way or another somewhat mad as well, just watch the news every night. It was a tragedy in all respects and very sad. What really makes me wonder though, is the incredible lack of compassion for this individual and his girlfriend. Were they wrong to be there, of course! I personally feel sad that his mental illness took him down this path and an unfortunate innocent as well.

Perhaps if we cared a little more for those that are struggling with inner termoil and sadness, we would have fewer tragic stories to write about

The most important things in life cannot be seen or heard, but must be felt with the heart. Helen Keller.

joab
January 30, 2006, 12:33 AM
The most important things in life cannot be seen or heard, but must be felt with the heart. Helen Keller.I don't mean to disrespect the accomplishments of Ms Keller, but she is hardly an unbiased source or an authority on the matter

Double Naught Spy
January 30, 2006, 02:56 AM
Mike,

They weren't going in expecting to practice small unit tactics against insurgents, they were investigating a bear attack. Bear attacks involving predation from coastal browns are fairly uncommon, as is stalking behaviour. Typically they'll move off once they figure out you're a human, with the amount of activity they were kicking up there shouldn't have been a bear left within an acre.

In any event, I'm not sure if you are really familiar with the terrain and flora up here. Your perimeter is about as far as you can see, the "wall of green" is absolute at the edge of whatever clearing you are in. From the "trails" (not maintained old-growth lower 48 stuff, actual bear trails not more than a foot wide) you can literally see about arms length into the brush.

It's a whole nother world out there and the bears are like ghosts moving through it when they want to be.


First of all, bear attacks in Alaska are uncommon. So saying that bear attacks involving predation are rare as is stalking isn't saying a whole bunch. Currently, there are only about 500 documented cases where bears attacked humans in the last 100 years in Alaska. http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm

On top of this, saying that the behavior is uncommon in coastal areas is interesting as it suggests such attacks are more common inland (for not specifified reason). As it turns out, most bear attacks Alaska are in coastal areas.

This fascination of stalking behavior of bears of humans is out of place. Ellis said he felt like the bear was stalking them and that sounds realy nefarious, but in reality, the bear could simply have been keeping tabs on his kills and making sure other humans don't make off with his food.

As noted, bears are predators and many predators stalk. It is strange that humans tend to believe that there is something out of kilter when an animal attacks a human. Humans are not above being attacked. There is nothing in nature that makes humans biologically a poor form of prey.

I have to wonder if the stalking behavior and predation is a recently learned/thunk up pattern by the bears, as a response to more people in the area.

Stalking and predation are not new learned behaviors of the bears, although bear attacks have gone up in number as the human population in Alaska has increased.

You guys and gals offering possible reasons for the attack have missed the single most likely reason the bear(s) attacked the couple.

The most likely reason the bear(s) suddenly turned on Mr. Fedwell and his girlfriend would be the onset of the girlfriend's menstrual period. Bears and other animals can smell that a mile away (pun intended).

So you have insight to justify the attack because Treadwell's girlfriend was on her period? As noted, the whole bear attack and menstrual cycle thing is a wilderness myth. See http://www.mum.org/Odor.htm

This all amazes me. So because humans are unique and that bears don't typically attack humans or eat them, then we need to make up some sort of far-fetched explanation to explain with Treadwell and his girlfriend were attacked.

If you want to talk about obvious factors, consider that Treadwell apparently used to keep his food supplies in a tent next to his own sleeping tent (http://www.katmaibears.com/timothytreadwell3.htm)

Their camp was located along trails used by game including bears. http://www.adn.com/front/story/4127139p-4142019c.html

As it turns out, he camped at the location for the express purpose of encountering bears as they used the trail and going about their business.

----

I have no doubt that Treadwell probably understood bears better than most biologists, in part due to his prolonged time spent with the bears. Somewhere along the way, he lost sight of the fact that bears don't all act in the same manners all the time. No doubt that what he understood probably included most normal bear behavior from bears who had become accustomed to him. Encountering a bear that did not know him, was stressed, sick, old, surprised, hungry, territorial, or whatever and all of his bear knowledge would have been for naught.

Johnny_Yuma
January 30, 2006, 03:00 AM
I did see the DVD, Grizzly Man last night and found it disturbing. This man, Timothy Treadwell, was obviously mentally ill to get so close to wild bears. So many in this world if not all of us in some way or another somewhat mad as well, just watch the news every night. It was a tragedy in all respects and very sad. What really makes me wonder though, is the incredible lack of compassion for this individual and his girlfriend. Were they wrong to be there, of course! I personally feel sad that his mental illness took him down this path and an unfortunate innocent as well.

Perhaps if we cared a little more for those that are struggling with inner termoil and sadness, we would have fewer tragic stories to write about.

Won't do a damn thing for Treadwell. He's dead. Save it for the living.

JY

esheato
January 30, 2006, 03:34 AM
I watched the movie a few days ago. The g/f rented it as a joke because I always laughed at it while perusing the shelves at the movie store.

Needless to say, I wasn't let down. It was just as horrible and humorous as I had thought it would be. :D

Treadwell was seriously out there...and got what he deserved. The amazing part is that it didn't happen years earlier.

Ed

PS. The helicopter pilots' comments were downright comical.

Johnny_Yuma
January 30, 2006, 03:57 AM
and I think that "Ravenous" was a much better movie about eating people:evil:.

Back to THR's purpose: what do you guys think of the .458 SOCOM as an anti-bear round?

carebear
January 30, 2006, 05:19 AM
"Ravenous" had one of the best fitting scores for a film I've ever heard. Way spooky banjo.

Templar223
January 30, 2006, 02:56 PM
Treadwell's co-existence with the bears was tenuous.

Add in his GFs period and tenuous went to hopeless.

It's not far fetched for those knowledgeable about being around dangerous animals.

John

Cosmoline
January 30, 2006, 07:00 PM
"Grizzly Man" drinking game.

Take a swig when:

--Treadwell claims he's not gay
--Treadwell curses the park service
--Treadwell calls a wild animal by a pet name
--Treadwell touches bear scat
--Treadwell mourns for a dead animal.
--Treadwell mentions "poachers"
--Treadwell tries to touch a bear
--Werner Herzog interrupts his own film
--Werner Herzog makes an interview seem oddly staged
--Werner Herzog makes some grand comment on life

Cosmoline
January 30, 2006, 07:03 PM
pish posh!!!! everyone knows that if timmy had grown out a tactical beard he'd still be alive today because those ninja bears would have been swiping and trying to chomp on his scruffy beard instead of his head or throat.

LOL

It's worked so far for me. No bear has ripped my neck open since I started my tactical beard.

bumm
January 30, 2006, 08:01 PM
It's a sad end for an obviously mentally unbalanced man and his girlfriend, but Treadwell made the world more dangerous for the bears he apparently loved and the people foolish enough to believe his trendy drivel. Not too long before Treadwell and his girlfriend were killed, I had an argument with a fellow in an astronomy group, (amateur astronomers have to go out in secluded places where it's dark,) about the dangers of bears. He specifically mentioned Treadwell, and said that if a bear were to come around he'd "spank it" and it would run away. I wonder how many other people swallowed this crap. Bad for people, bad for bears.
Marty

carebear
January 30, 2006, 11:38 PM
Treadwell's co-existence with the bears was tenuous.

Add in his GFs period and tenuous went to hopeless.

It's not far fetched for those knowledgeable about being around dangerous animals.

John

Again....

from: http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/menstruation_data.html

Bears and Menstruating Women
Information provided courtesy; Kerry A. Gunther, Yellowstone Park Bear Management



Bears and Menstruating Women. Should You Camp?

On the evening of August 13, 1967, two women were attacked and killed by grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis) in separate incidents within Glacier National Park (GNP). Following these incidents, there was speculation that due to odors associated with menstruation, women may be more prone to attack by bears than are men (Rogers et al. 1991).

The objective of this paper is to present the data available on this subject so that women can make an informed choice when deciding whether or not to hike and/or camp in bear country during their menstrual period.


Polar Bears
In a study designed to test the hypothesis that bears are attracted to the odors of menstruation, Cushing (1983) reported that when presented with a series of different odors (including seal scents, other food scents, non menstrual human blood, and used tampons), four captive polar bears (Ursus maritimus) elicited a strong behavioral response only to seal scents and menstrual odors (used tampons).

Cushing (1983) also reported that free-ranging polar bears detected and consumed food scent samples and used tampons, but ignored non menstrual human blood and unused tampons. This suggests that polar bears are attracted to odors associated with menstrual blood.

Grizzly Bears
Herrero (1985) analyzed the circumstances of hundreds of grizzly bear attacks on humans, including the attacks on the two women in GNP, and concluded that there was no evidence linking menstruation to any of the attacks. The responses of grizzly bears to menstrual odors has not been studied experimentally.

Black Bears
Rogers et al. (1991) recorded the responses of 26 free-ranging black bears (Ursus americanus) to used tampons from 26 women and the responses of 20 free ranging black bears to four menstruating women at different days of their flow.

Menstrual odors were essentially ignored by black bears of all sex and age classes. In an extensive review of black bear attacks across North America, no instances of black bears attacking or being attracted to menstruating women was found (Cramond 1981, Herrero 1985, Rogers et al. 1991).

Treadwell and Annie were not killed by a polar bear (the one bear that by necessity is almost solely carnivorus as opposed to the browns and bears which are far more omnivorous) so apparently the menstrual issue is a non-issue.

Cosmoline
January 31, 2006, 07:25 AM
I'm pretty sure the whole "time of the month" issue was cooked up as an excuse to keep wives and girlfriends out of the woods.

Hundreds of people had warned Treadwell he might get killed in just the manner he ended up getting killed. The big surprise is it didn't happen sooner.

JMusic
January 31, 2006, 09:57 AM
I had read about Treadwell several years ago and saw a picture where he was approaching Grissleys way to close. I told my wife then he would not last long.

I've been around Black Bears most of my life. At one time in the Smokies black bear were commonly seen along the roads. We watched from the car people trying to feed these wild animals as if they were pets.

They are not as commonly seen now that trash cans have been taken away from the park. A few years back a husband and wife were fishing in one of the streams common throughout the park. As the wife sat on the bank the husband waded out of sight. Upon his return he found two bears feeding on what was left of his wife. From all indications she was stalked and killed for food. The largest of the two weighed 110 lb.

A couple of days ago a coworker was telling me he had watched the Crocodile Hunter on cable. He was in Africa and made the statement that "Lions were so used to man they were no longer a danger!" That will be another idiot eaten you watch!
Jim

Satch
January 31, 2006, 10:20 AM
There was a show about 20 years ago on TV about a guy that lived around and worked with wolves. He was was telling a reporter-et how gentil they were and how they cared for their young. He was doing this with a female and some here pups in a running cage and just happened to step between the female and her pups and WHAM the female nailed him. After all the time with them he still looked like a threat to her pups to her.He said he made mistake and no one else should do this. One picture is worth a thousand words.:what:

sturmruger
January 31, 2006, 12:22 PM
I still can't decide if I want to see this goofy guy on DVD or if it will make me sick. I think they are going to play his movie on TLC this week sometime maybe I will watch it for free.

Pocomoke
January 31, 2006, 02:50 PM
sturmruger
I just watched the rental last night. IMHO it was worth that price because:
.
.
---the bear footage is pretty good, especially the bear fight, though Herzog could have used more of it.
.
---it shows how utterly detached from reality Treadwell and his entire cohort of "friends" and enablers really are. Actors, "ecologists", "girl friends" and the wacky coroner come across as the types you avoid at all cost just by looking at them, knowing they will eat up piece of your life with worthless nonsense.
.
__as a litmus test down the road if anyone praises Timmy and/or Grizzly People you know exactly what they are and have the ammo to blow them out of the water in discussion.
.
---some parts are unintentionally hilarious.

Carl N. Brown
January 31, 2006, 03:40 PM
Werner Herzog, maker of the doc "Grizzly Man" has stated on the record
that Treadwell romanticised the bears, assigning human feelings where
Herzog saw "only the overwelming blank stare of the bear" in Treadwell's
own footage of the bear that probably ate him. Treadwell petted large
omnivores cooing "I love you, I do, I do I do"? The bears loved him too,
and his girlfriend as dessert. Bears and people need to be taught to
respect and stay away from each other for their own good. Bambi is
fantasy, kids, don't try this outdoors.

Sactown
January 31, 2006, 03:54 PM
I think Discover will be airing a documentary about Mr. Bear Bait in a couple weeks. Keep your eyes open (unlike Mr. Bear Bait)

Cosmoline
January 31, 2006, 03:57 PM
I still can't decide if I want to see this goofy guy on DVD or if it will make me sick. I think they are going to play his movie on TLC this week sometime maybe I will watch it for free.

Watch it on Discovery. It offers great insight into the same sort of brains that want to ban firearms.

It's on this Friday BTW.

Wllm. Legrand
January 31, 2006, 04:22 PM
"Mr Treadwell, who never carried weapons, then asked her to get a pan and to hit the bear, police said. At that point, the tape - much of it fuzzy and inaudible, stops, Mr Wilkinson said."

It has been my learned opinion that there is considerable overlap in the intelligence between the smarter animals and the stupidest people.

Thain
January 31, 2006, 04:47 PM
http://flagrantdisregard.com/flickr/output/motivator9452a89b2931173769f5c76cd438346f.jpg

I feel sorry for the bears, not for Treadwell... or his bimbo.

Biker
January 31, 2006, 07:16 PM
Having worked with a couple of grizzlies for awhile last year, I cannot even *begin* to understand Treadwell's actions and how he survived for as long as he did.
Biker

jerkface11
January 31, 2006, 08:03 PM
The sad part is that this idiot got 2 bears killed. The funny part is that wild animals seem to hate hippies. Mountain lions always eat people jogging in the mountains. Grizlies find the unarmed to be easier prey. And don't forget the chick from PETA a few years ago who was protesting bulllfighting in pamplona. She was in a side alley during the running of the bulls. When one of the bulls charged down the alley ignoring a few dozen people. Then stopped and gored her for a couple of minutes before running off to the arena.

nickthecanuck
January 31, 2006, 08:26 PM
The funny part is that wild animals seem to hate hippies.

Guess they hate the smell of patchouli as much as the rest of us.

JesseJames
January 31, 2006, 08:33 PM
That Treadwell guy was one disturbed mothereffer.
He was asking for it; and, he got it.

Man, what kind of fool thinks a wild bear - Brown bear no less - is their friend???

Looks like the Park Rangers pump shotguns and rifled slugs did their job well. I wonder if a .450 Marlin would've been just as effective on one of those suckers.

1911Tuner
January 31, 2006, 08:49 PM
Although it's tragic whenever anybody comes to a horrific end during an encounter with wild animls...Treadwell seems to have thoroughly and
completely asked for it. The bears were killed for acting like bears...for BEING bears. Treadwell's assumption that if he pretended to be a bear, that they wouldn't notice his position on the food chain. He also seems to have assumed that if he could...by mental telepathy, I suppose...demonstrate to the bears that he meant no harm, they'd accept him as one of their own instead of viewing him as either an arrogant tresspasser or dinner. He gambled on that and lost. He got exactly what he invited. Sad that his girlfriend and the bears had to die for his moronic assumptions...but she should have known better too. Who...in their right minds...wouldn't be
just a little intimitaded by a wild, 800-pound carnivore 30 feet away? I mean...Really!:rolleyes:

flatdog
February 1, 2006, 01:53 AM
The commercials say Fri. 3 Feb. 8 p.m. E/P

Onmilo
February 1, 2006, 09:53 AM
Grizzly man??
Well,,, the real character Grizzly Adams was based on didn't sleep with bears and want to be friends with the fuzzy critters.
He cheerfully killed them with a large hunting knife.
Treadwell wasn't a grizzly man, he was a top flight idiot in a world full of idiots.
Man went to Bradley University, right here in beautiful Illinois too.
Did I mention we don't have many real grizzlies in these parts and what are here are locked up in cages, costs five bucks and up to go and look at them.

Thain
February 1, 2006, 10:25 AM
Man, I wish Celebrity Deathmatch was still around...

I would love to see Grizzly Adams kick the snot out of Timmy Treadwell!

Capital Punishment
February 1, 2006, 11:10 AM
Sounds like this stupid hippie got what was coming to him.


If you dont have the common sense to avoid bears....maybe you should be eaten. :rolleyes:

If you think you're "in touch with mother nature", then you're retarded. :uhoh:

outofbattery
February 2, 2006, 12:33 AM
For those who haven't seen it,it's going to be shown at 8:00 Eastern on Discovery this Friday.I do wonder how much editing his tapes got before those at Discovery,Animal Planet etc got before given to them to make shows.It wouldn't have taken much to see that he wasn't just the quirky wierd guy doing fairly dangerous things but rather that he was a total loon on borrowed time.

Cosmoline
February 2, 2006, 01:39 AM
Here's Keith's original post on the slayings, makes for an interesting read:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=43584

Whatever happened to Keith, anyway?

jlbraun
February 2, 2006, 01:55 AM
Treadwell's sin was hubris. It is a common thread found amongst the "greens" and it permeates their entire ethos. There is a level of arrogance that goes along with the idea that mankind is "ruining the globe" for all the trees, the fuzzy bunnies, the pretty fish and the harmless giant predators. It is an arrogant idea, because in order for their hypothesis to be true one must believe that mankind is somehow separate from the system; that mankind is an "outside influence" rather than an integral part of the complex natural world. The reality is that man merely sits at the top of the pyramid. He does not reside outside of the pyramid. He isn't ruining the food chain...HE IS PART OF THE FOOD CHAIN. All living creatures change and affect their environment (termites, ants, beavers, birds, etc.) mankind just happens to be the best at it...and when we have gotten so good at it (changing our environment) and done so much of it that we threaten the delicate balance which sustains our vast numbers....nature will self correct somehow, (disease, war caused by competition for scare resources, famine, etc) our numbers will contract and we will end up as the biomass starter kit for the crude oil being pumped out of the ground by the intelligent descendants of present day gerbils....

Treadwell's lack of respect for the laws of nature and the wild led to a horrific death for himself, his girlfriend and at least two bears. A shame....

Staying relevant to the purpose of THR...any doubts about a slug gun's close range terminal performance should be laid to rest.

Hubris is not a trait restricted to "greenies" or "loony lefties". It is a human trait, nothing more.

buttrap
February 2, 2006, 03:46 AM
Why does that "Forrest Gump" stupid is as stupid does keep deal keep popping into my mind on that guy.

NateG
February 2, 2006, 06:13 PM
Well this guy thought he was smarter than everyone else, and got eaten by a bear. There's a moral to this story: pride goeth before a maul.

I know, that was bad and crass, but I couldn't help myself.

bogie
February 3, 2006, 01:30 AM
Now this is NOT a perfect quote, but on the commercials, they've got tape of him saying that he's the only person who can protect the grizzlies...

Now, it makes me _real_ nervous now when someone says that they're the only person who can do something... Just do a search on "RastaNarc" and you'll know...

carebear
February 3, 2006, 01:52 AM
The irony is that the Katmai bears aren't and weren't in any need of protection. Part of the reason he could get as close as he did is they are protected and don't face hunting or poaching pressures.

His whole "I'm stopping poachers" schtick was a puerile way to grub money from credulous lower 48-er's so he could live out his delusions.

Malone LaVeigh
February 3, 2006, 02:12 AM
Where's Steven Colbert when you need him?

DevLcL
February 3, 2006, 04:37 AM
Treadwell was a bag egg...nuff said.

And I may have to rethink visiting Alaska. Tigers on the other side of even a nominal fence are one thing. Bears face to face is another!

--Herself

I wouldn't let this story worry you. As long as you don't go off in the woods and talk goo goo ga ga with the predators, you'll probably be alright. LOL

-Dev

bogie
February 3, 2006, 09:57 AM
Yeah, there's one voice over on the commercial where he's talking baby talk over the camera... Sheesh...

What's really sad is that some folks are likely to see this, and then head for Alaska so that they too can have the "bear experience." I think this is gonna turn out badly for the bears.

Hawkmoon
February 3, 2006, 12:23 PM
So the New Agers have progressed from swimming with the dolphins to dining with the bears.

I wonder what they'll do for an encore ...

Cosmoline
February 3, 2006, 10:46 PM
Treadwell was a bag egg...nuff said.

I wouldn't let this story worry you. As long as you don't go off in the woods and talk goo goo ga ga with the predators, you'll probably be alright. LOL

The brown bear I've run across have been high-tailing it the other direction, which is typical. I wouldn't go into Katmai, though. Between the NPS and Timmy boy there are way too many bear in there that have little or no fear of humans.

molonlabe
February 4, 2006, 01:22 AM
I just saw it and I’m speechless. The brightest bulb I saw other than the Native American was the guy who said.” I donno how he lasted so long, hell the bears probably thought he was retarded or something.” Then one day the bear has enough and says.” You know that might be good to eat”.

Sorry he was a few cans short of a six pack.

Cosmoline
February 4, 2006, 01:27 AM
The panel of his supporters Discovery put on at the end reveal he wasn't the only dim bulb from Malibu. One of them was declaring how the entire state of Alaska was full of poachers from north to south. These people do a lot to reenforce my deep hatred of that state to the south. I hope the Mexicans take it over and put the gringos against the wall.

KriegHund
February 4, 2006, 01:34 AM
Those are some creepy bears.

Logan5
February 4, 2006, 02:12 AM
They sure were a bit bitey towards the end. It just goes to show that one human, dedicated to teaching bears that people are not to be feared, can get them to rush a group of armed men. That's kind of a stupid thing to teach bears, it got them all killed.
I wonder what Rangers in Alaska are doing with .40 S&W sidearms. The last time I was rafting in Alaska, my cab driver from the airport carried a .44 mag; I guess a lot of his fares were cranky bears.

carebear
February 4, 2006, 03:10 AM
The Fur, Fish and Feathers boys are essentially State Troopers, they go to the same academy, carry the same weapons and have the same authority. They just wear brown shirts instead of blue.

They had shotguns and rifles, the pistols were superfluous.

molonlabe
February 4, 2006, 09:45 AM
One of the things I learned was.
Note to self...
Untreated bi-polars and bears do not mix.

Most of his friends and girlfriends seemed a little out of it too.

And the bears seemed less creepy to me than Treadwell. They were just being bears. The thing about the wolves killing his pet fox proved to me how out touch with reality he was. Also seems like his girlfriend finally figured it out toward the end that he was suicidal and was going to leave him. Too bad the bear had to die but once it became a man killer it had to go. I saw the lesson but I doubt the starry eyed California new agers did. For the life of me I don't see how any responsible educator would let him come into their class and preach his insanity. I only hope the idiots talked with their class and said "Kids, remember Mr. Treadwell? Well the bears ate him because he should not have done what he did and then explain WHY.

When I was in bear country I went with a 12 ga with 3 inch sabot rounds from a rifled slug barrel. Never had to use it cause I didn't run with them. But I was covered.

You know, that was the nuttiest thing I've seen on TV in a long time....My wife and I were riveted to it like a bad accident. We couldn't believe what we were seeing.

1911Tuner
February 4, 2006, 09:50 AM
There are two basic rules whenever in bear country.

1. Keep your distance

2. Keep your distance

That is all...

molonlabe
February 4, 2006, 10:11 AM
And don't feed the bears:D

I Know that was sick.

flatdog
February 4, 2006, 02:08 PM
"Look it's Wendy's poop! ...It's just came out of her...It's her gift to me." :what:

I'd bet real money they were killed during one of Treadwell's manic periods.

MillCreek
February 4, 2006, 04:13 PM
Guess they hate the smell of patchouli as much as the rest of us.

Very well said, sir.

I did see this movie for the first time on Discovery last night. My wife and I have both worked in healthcare for twenty years each plus. We both had the same thought: he was not taking his lithium for his bipolar disorder. Some of his manic episodes clearly came through on film.

Turkey Creek
February 4, 2006, 05:30 PM
This guy has to be the most seriously disturbed individual I have ever seen- hopefully he never passed on his "super stupid gene"- if he hadn't been the main course this time he might have tried to bed down with one of them eventually- watching this thing was like watching a train wreck- I was disappointed one of the commercials wasn't the old guy sitting on the side of the bed complaining "I can't believe I ate the whole thing"

jamz
February 4, 2006, 09:42 PM
It's on right now on the Discover Channel (east coast)

This guy sounds a lot more irritating that I had guessed.


It's like his all encompassing love for animals completely overtook his humanity... and he died an animal's death.

Fitting, I suppose.

carebear
February 4, 2006, 10:09 PM
He was supposed to be there to "protect" the bears but the in the only documented case of even harassment in the film (the rock throwing) he is too scared to even step out and say "Hey, stop throwing rocks at my bear friends".

Instead he hides and just cries about the bear getting hit with a tossed rock. I'm sure the bears would have given him a medal when they learned smelting.

Even if there was a poaching problem, what did he plan to DO about it? Hide, cry and be a good witness later?

jamz
February 4, 2006, 10:12 PM
There is some serious unintentional comedy in this.


Treadwell, filming himself during a walk and pontificating: "I wonder why girls don't like to be around me for long?"


After a fox steals his hat

"Gimme back my ****ing hat!! Aw man!"


HAAhahhaha

M.E.Eldridge
February 4, 2006, 10:18 PM
What an idiot. This guy deserves a Darwin Award. The worst part about is that this moron is being painted as a hero who died bravely defending the poor, helpless bears.

On the bright side, maybe the coverage of this fool's actions will inspire some pansy member of PETA to emulate him......one can only hope.

carebear
February 4, 2006, 10:28 PM
Treadwell, filming himself during a walk and pontificating: "I wonder why girls don't like to be around me for long?"

They couldn't "bear" him.

taliv
February 4, 2006, 10:52 PM
so... did you guys read the related fark entry? the headline pretty much sums it up

Bear mauls 80-year-old petting zoo worker to death. Still unclear why bear was in petting zoo

Brian Smith
February 5, 2006, 10:28 AM
It appears that the concept that natural selection is alive and well in Alaska. I only hope that Treadwell did not infect some city school kid with his stupidity although I am certain that another will take his place thus providing a meal for a deserving bear. No matter where you find them nor how benign they appear predators have a nasty habit of reminding us why they are closer to the top of the food chain than we are.

Cosmoline
February 5, 2006, 02:21 PM
He was supposed to be there to "protect" the bears but the in the only documented case of even harassment in the film ...

Of course, the entire film is one long documented case of wildlife harassment. Almost everything Timmy Boy did was harassment of wildlife, from touching the bear to taming the foxes. And you know he was giving them food.

M-Rex
February 5, 2006, 04:14 PM
The whole of this film about the clod, Treadwell could be summed up in one single picture.

http://members.aol.com/lowis6535/journal/bearpoo1.jpg

Bear poop.

PATH
February 5, 2006, 04:21 PM
Yup! I just saw the documentary about Treadwell. As I said earlier in the thread he was "Dances with Bears". Now he is just "Scat". What a yo-yo! I rally feel bad for the young lady who died with him.

Ohen Cepel
February 5, 2006, 04:23 PM
I sat through the entire film last night on the Discovery channel.

It's unfortunate that he died such a horrible death, I would wish that on but a select few. Worse, that he got his girlfriend killed who seemed to have seen that he was a wacko, but it was too late for her.

That aside. He was a self-centered, self-promoting idiot with some real issues.

And to top it off. His stupidity resulted in one of his beloved bears getting killed since it ate him. If he would have stayed waiting tables in CA he probably would have found a creative way to get himself killed and the bear would still be alive. Everyone would have been better off that way.

carebear
February 5, 2006, 04:39 PM
Two bears, another young aggressive bear came in on the search team after they shot the probable killer.

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 04:47 PM
I must say I'm really dissapointed with the people that have posted here in this thread. Since when was it the THR way to make fun of a dead man? No matter what someone does in life they do not deserve ridicule in death. Sure Treadwell was a few beers short of a six pack, but how often do you point at a kid in a wheelchair and start laughing. Treadwell really was trying to do something noble he was just completely lost.

I've always regarded the folks here on THR as respectable, knowledgable, and courtious. What happened guys?

For all of you that say "He deserved what he got", well, you deserve what you'll get.

I watched 'Grizzly Man' last night and I was amazed how everyone the director had interviewed said Treadwell was a great guy. They told of his love of life and how he was actually well rounded talking about football and women and so forth. What right do we have as a bunch of nerds on the internet to make fun of him? As far as I'm concerned he was either very stupid or very brave but either way the guy had balls, and I'd pat him on the back if given the chance.

I suggest that the MODS close this forum. It's turned into nothing more then a public bashing, and frankly, it sickens me that you let it go this far.

Have some respect people.

-Dev

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 05:09 PM
He was supposed to be there to "protect" the bears but the in the only documented case of even harassment in the film (the rock throwing) he is too scared to even step out and say "Hey, stop throwing rocks at my bear friends".

Instead he hides and just cries about the bear getting hit with a tossed rock. I'm sure the bears would have given him a metal when they learned smelting.

Even if there was a poaching problem, what did he plan to DO about it? Hide, cry and be a good witness later?

I want to see you tell a group of unknown armed hunters to F*CK off.




------------------------------------------------------------------
M-Rex, I don't even have words for you.

-Dev

birddog
February 5, 2006, 05:19 PM
As far as I'm concerned he was either very stupid or very brave but either way the guy had balls

Until they got eaten.

I have less respect for Treadwell after seeing Grizzly Man. What he did was experience very minimal "tolerance" by a bunch of bears. He wrongly portrayed that tolerance as evidence of a special bond. Anyone with any experience with ANY animal (you don't need to be a bear expert) could see that the bears were more often than not annoyed by his presence. When that tolerance limit was finally pushed to the breaking point, Treadwell learned the true nature of wild carnivores. They don't love people, they don't hate people. They just want to be left alone.

I think one of the most unfortunate things in this whole mess is that I'm sure some bears did learn that humans are no big deal. Not an ideal situation for man nor beast.

I don't celebrate his death, or his "work". He was clearly a troubled man with very little respect for nature, despite his claims.

carebear
February 5, 2006, 05:19 PM
The dead do deserve simple respect and in that we on the whole may have gone to far, however to allow Treadwell's lies and foolishness to pass uncorrected and unremarked upon simply because he died is neither justice nor wisdom.

For Treadwell's actions and belief did not only affect himself, if they had it would be enough to point them out as foolishness so they wouldn't be repeated, but Timothy wasn't satisfied to simply indulge himself.

In the process of his life he slandered Alaskans in general as poachers, lied to credulous people in the States to finance his fantasy and unjustly publicly besmirched the reputation of both the USFS and SoA F&W.

He set himself up as a savior of animals whom (as Cos pointed out) he was actually behaving criminally towards. He chose to willingly expose an innocent party to extreme danger and did not heed her requests to leave. His actions in the end led to the death of animals he "was protecting".

He did not demonstrate the courage of his convictions to confront on film persons he felt were acting in a way to threaten his "protectees" (the rock throwers) and, in the end, he even lacked the courage of his convictions to die according to his own principles. The monks who lit themselves on fire in Vietnam to protest in the courage of their convictions did not end their lives screaming for someone to bring a fire extinguisher to save them.

Treadwell was noble in no sense of the word, he was a fraud, a self-indulgent false prophet who entrapped other innocents, both people and animals, in his self-destructive fantasy life.

He'll get no pass from me until that truth is known and admitted by all who now defend him.

carebear
February 5, 2006, 05:23 PM
I want to see you tell a group of unknown armed hunters to F*CK off.

-Dev

They weren't hunters, they were sightseers. The only weapon I saw was the guide's bear spray. Hunting isn't allowed in Katmai. Treadwell was protecting the bears from NO lethal threat. Even poaching is not an issue. All he had to do in that situation was point out that rock-throwing constituted harassment and was illegal.

That is one of Treadwell's biggest constant lies and justification for his behavior, that he was a "protector" of the bears. They weren't and haven't ever been under any serious legal or illegal threat.

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 05:25 PM
(Fixed)

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 05:27 PM
The only weapon I saw was the guide's bear spray.

WOW....Are you serious? I've seen a man DIE from getting hit in the head with a rock smaller then the one thrown in the movie. For you to say these guys were not armed is a foolish misunderstanding.

-Dev

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 05:31 PM
Not a single bear was killed in the 13 summers he spent in the bay. The year after his death alone there were 6 (possibly more) dead bears found to be killed by poaching. The bears were in fact in danger and as far as I'm concerned he did save some bears. I'm not saying Treadwell was right or that I would have done what he did. I'm saying he DID save bears (aside from the one that ate him) and he actually DID make a difference.

-Dev

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 05:34 PM
It's interresting to note that everyone in the thread certainly 'talks the talk'. I wonder how many of you would actually 'walk the walk'.

-Dev

carebear
February 5, 2006, 05:39 PM
I don't want to get in a pissing match over the lethality of rocks here. He was 50+ yards away in the brush with a video camera. The guy throwing the rocks with the pepper spray is almost certainly a state licensed guide whose business is taking people (tourists from Debuque) on wildlife floats. Do you seriously think Ma and Pa Kettle are going to go all Lord of the Flies and chase Timothy down in their chest waders?

My point is, he didn't EVER do anything to "protect" the bears mostly because there was nothing to protect the bears FROM. The reason that young bear came so close to the touristas was curiousity as it probably hadn't seen any other people but Treadwell in its life.

The best thing that could have happened to that bear (or any young bear) is to realize the funny-smelling bipeds can throw things and hurt you at a distance. They stay alive longer that way compared to thinking man is a harmless annoyance.

For the record, I was "semi-retired" for a bit last year so I spent way too much time on here. Lately it's been cold here in alaska so I haven't been out away from the keyboard as much as normal.

I'd recommend getting a more balanced point of view on the situation in Katmai (and in dealing with Alaskan browns and grizzly's in general) than Treadwells before defending his behavior too much.

carebear
February 5, 2006, 05:47 PM
http://www.shewolfworks.com/wolfsong/news/Alaska_current_events_815.htm

I'd be interested to see the source for the "6 bears" number cause I can't recall it being published in any of the recent newspaper articles. (though I may have missed it)

I found a report of 3 on the other side of the park in August of 2004, but 3 out of a population of hundreds or thousands, while bad for those 3, does not constitute a threat to the population. The carcasses were found by a local guide, investigated by F&W and a reward was offered, hardly a "nobody else is protecting them" situation. Treadwell could only protect what he could see, by self-admission he remained hidden and yet in those 13 years he never got any film of the poachers using "machineguns" from boats and aircraft. Not a single frame.

DevLcL
February 5, 2006, 05:50 PM
I'd recommend getting a more balanced point of view on the situation in Katmai (and in dealing with Alaskan browns and grizzly's in general) than Treadwells before defending his behavior too much.

I have no illusions about the danger of grizzly bears. It was very stupid what Treadwell did. However, at no point will I be glad that it happened or say that he deserved it. I do agree that Treadwell wanted to be a 'rockstar', as his friends put it, and that his filming was more of a confidence booster for himself then a will to save anything.

Think of the fear that would be running through you as your being eaten alive by a grizzly. I don't see how anyone can find humor in that.

-Dev

carebear
February 5, 2006, 06:00 PM
I have no illusions about the danger of grizzly bears. It was very stupid what Treadwell did. However, at no point will I be glad that it happened or say that he deserved it. I do agree that Treadwell wanted to be a 'rockstar', as his friends put it, and that his filming was more of a confidence booster for himself then a will to save anything.

Think of the fear that would be running through you as your being eaten alive by a grizzly. I don't see how anyone can find humor in that.

-Dev

If I were being eaten by a grizzly it would be because, despite me doing all the RIGHT things and being armed, the bear and fate conspired against me. It will not be an ironic finish to a spectacularly stupid series of self-righteously ignorent actions on my part that end in a burst of hypocrisy. And I won't be dragging an innocent party into the mix by representing I alone know what i'm doing in the woods.

Again, I bet those monks weren't enjoying the flames.

molonlabe
February 5, 2006, 07:11 PM
While I don’t see many of these post disrespectful, I call it as I see it. He was mentally ill and untreated, He spread misinformation to school children, Violated the laws regarding campers behavior in a wilderness setting and I think he should have been jailed before he committed murder by dragging a clueless woman who appears to be highly educated in medicine off to her death. Dis-respectful? I think most people are showing a lot of restraint regarding this Ex. nut job.

Tory
February 5, 2006, 07:29 PM
Fortunately for us, very, very few have our stupidity self-recorded in such detail over so long a period of time - and then publicized through our own self-promotion.

When such a fiaso DOES occur, public comment is both inevitable and deserved. :eek:

Lupinus
February 5, 2006, 07:52 PM
I feal neither sadness or joy about him being dead, just like a suicide victem who has tried and failed multiple times and then one day finally gets it done and is dead.

Not joyful, being a simple tree hugging nutjob doesn't put you onto my list of people I'd be happy to see dead. But I will say he got what was coming to him.

Not sadness, because agian he got what he was asking for, like a suicide victem who had made multiple attempts.

I do feel at some level though the girl who was dragged into it. Though on the same note he didn't put a gun to her head, I'm sure at some level he is guilty of making her do it through some serious convincing and misinforming.

I do find one thing kind of ironic in all this though. He is on screen worshipping bear poop, then he became bear poop.

gulogulo1970
February 6, 2006, 12:13 AM
He didn't get what he deserved, he got what any sane person would expect to happen when you play with bears.

Calling out a fool is not a low blow. In fact thoughout human history pointing out foolishness teaches others what not to do, especially when the foolish actions kill the fool.

For example, when teens dodge trains it is a brave thing to do but still stupid. When one of them dies doing it, we don't have to bow down to the idiots bravery. We do need to note his lack of wisdom and convey it to others and our children.

Moral of the story, don't play with bears or you might get eaten.

Cosmoline
February 6, 2006, 03:13 AM
Treadwell really was trying to do something noble he was just completely lost.

When did it become "noble" to acclimate bears to humans and harass them? This jerk spent years and years telling as many people as he could find in the lower 48 that we were a bunch of poachers up here, and without his "protection" these bears would be dead. He LIED and he MADE MONEY DOING IT. He got to go on TV and got to meet famous movie stars. He even got big checks from some of them.

He deserved EXACTLY what he got. I do feel sorry for the bears, though.

strambo
February 6, 2006, 03:14 AM
before he committed murder by dragging a clueless woman

Umm..I just watched "Grizzly Man" last night, great film. As his friends said, the girl was no girl, but a 37 year old woman. An avid and experienced outdoorsman. She knew what she was getting into and was fully capable of making her own decisions. They were at the airport when he got mad at an employee and decided to go back to the island. She just could have left then (and wanted to to go back to her job). An adult making their own choices does not constitute murder on behalf of the other adult present. Yes, that guy unfortunately had some mental problems and an extremely naive view of nature.

He reminded me of a lot of people who live in the world as they think it is, instead of the world as it really is. His statement about how living with Bears is extremely dangerous and if he ever makes a mistake they will kill him was telling. He thought he could do the right things, behave in the right way (it was up to him) and avoid that outcome.

It never was up to him, he never had the power. The bears always had and retained the power over life and death on that island as far as he was concerned. It is like someone saying "if you give the criminal what he wants he will not hurt you." He may, or may not, hurt you at HIS discretion irregardless of what you do....the criminal has all the power unless you live in the real world and take steps to protect yourself. If he would have treated the bears like any other wildlife biologist, he (and the bear that killed him) would still be here.

My quirky BIL summed this film up best "There is a lot of mental illness in Alaska.":D -Heh, I've lived in Fairbanks, he ain't kiddin'.:neener:

Cosmoline
February 6, 2006, 03:24 AM
Not a single bear was killed in the 13 summers he spent in the bay. The year after his death alone there were 6 (possibly more) dead bears found to be killed by poaching. The bears were in fact in danger and as far as I'm concerned he did save some bears. I'm not saying Treadwell was right or that I would have done what he did. I'm saying he DID save bears (aside from the one that ate him) and he actually DID make a difference.


Ah, the challenges of Alaska geography. I suggest you GET A MAP before you presume to lecture us. The allegedly poached bears were found on the OTHER SIDE OF A MOUNTAIN RANGE from Treadwell's little sanctuary. On a tributary of Lake Iliamna. He never went there. The area he "protected" is right on the coast within easy viewing range of any VFR flight using the coastline for navigation. In fact it wasn't unusual for pilots to fly down to try to assist Treadwell when they saw him waving flares around. They assumed he was in trouble, but were surprised to find him screaming at them and chasing them off when they arrived to render aid. He claimed he was "chasing off poachers."

I've been reading about this guy for years now. The more I learn, the less sympathy I have for him. He was the kind of crazy that gets thousands of dollars from Leo DiCaprio and gets to talk to Letterman. He wanted to spin the whole thing off into a sort of lucrative combination of Jane Godall and that crocodile idiot.

Cosmoline
February 6, 2006, 03:31 AM
Think of the fear that would be running through you as your being eaten alive by a grizzly. I don't see how anyone can find humor in that.


I don't find humor in it. The whole thing makes me mad. The park service should have kicked him out long ago, but I guess they didn't want to take the political heat for doing it. If he'd pulled this garbage on state land he would have been up on wildlife harassment charges post haste. In fact, a hatred for the idiots at the NPS is the one thing I would have agreed with Timmy boy about. But I think we dislike them for very different reasons.

trickyasafox
February 6, 2006, 11:02 AM
its always a bit sad when someone dies so violently, but to say that the guy wasnt playing with matches would be an understatement.

bobhaverford
February 6, 2006, 11:27 AM
This fellow WAS certifiable. I just finished watching Grizzly Man and he had to be one of the most self-satisfied, hubristic ignoramuses I've actually personally witnessed other than possibly AlGore, Jimmah Carter and John Kerry.

justashooter
February 6, 2006, 11:45 AM
just watched grizzly man, and have to say that treadwell was one of the most flambouyant, histrionic, egocentric nutcases i have ever seen. the bears were his, and he was their master (in his mind).

truly magical thinking, diagnosably psychotic.

Carl N. Brown
February 6, 2006, 11:54 AM
I watched Grizzly Man on Discovery Channel last night and
taped it, and the commentary section that followed, skipping
commercials; translation: I watched every minute alert.

I had hoped my first impressions from the popular press,
news, movie reviews and internet accounts were wrong.
Treadwell's own words and acts just re-enforce my first
impressions.

Like a lot of recovered addicts and similar personalities,
Treadwell siezed on a capital-c Cause to give meaning to
his life. It could have been worse, he could have become a
Unabomber. It coulda been better. Treadwell's crusade was
all about Treadwell THE ONLY PROTECTOR OF THE BEARS!!!!!

Threadwell's friends give me the impression that the fact
they found him personally charming and politically correct
puts his behavior above criticism. I think they are in denial
and too subjective. We all benefit from stepping back from
the trees and looking at the forest objectively.

I looked in the face of the bear that Treadwell treated as
a buddy and it was like looking into a Nietzschean abyss.
Treadwell in his self righteous idealism humanised bears and
demonized humans. Bears are like tornados or avalanches:
awesome but lethal natural phenomena outside human concepts
of good or evil.

He did not "get what he deserved" but "he brought it on
himself" by being so out of touch with the reality of nature
and the nature of bears that he put himself and his girl
friend in harm's way.

I got the impression after she spendt a little time with him
and his bear buddies, she realized the situation better than
he did. By then she had no way out but the return of the
bush pilot.

By him being such a eccentric, many people introduced to the
subject by "Grizzly Man" will find it hard to take animal
protection seriously. Worse, he may inspire copycat bear
huggers to the detriment of people and bears alike.

In the account by Nick Jans originally cited by Preacherman,
the bear encountered by bush pilot Willy Fulton and the
park rangers had no fear of humans and had discovered they
are easy prey, thanks to Treadwell. The guide who threw rocks
at the bear was actually doing the bear a kindness if it
taught the bear to keep its distance from people.

----------------------added today,
DevLcL, "gallows humor" in response to mind-boggling
situations is a common human reaction.

beaucoup ammo
February 6, 2006, 01:09 PM
Wow, hell of a compelling tale. I truely couldn't stop reading once I got into the piece..Can't understand why this guy, Treadwell, with all his history and experience among these WILD PREDATORS could be so off guard as to allow this tragedy to take place. "Wild", IMO, is the operative word. That spells unpredictable...and demands caution.

It's very sad but, Good Lord, Grizzly bears are the most powerful and deadly of the browns. Did he think his continued presence among them would give him immunity from being attacked..and his lady friend?

Human nature being what it is, I found it fascinating..yet very sad and difficult to understand.

Thanks..Take Care

Cosmoline
February 6, 2006, 03:45 PM
He never saw a grizzly bear in his life. The bear he was hanging out with were all coastal Alaskan brown bears during the salmon run.

strambo
February 6, 2006, 04:27 PM
The fox family was really cute. He should have studied and protected the fox in "fox country" instead of bears in "bear country.":)

I like how he selectively liked some animals and not others. He didn't care too much for the wolves who killed one of the fox. If he would have chosen wolves to get to know and protect his POV would have been totally different. He didn't care about what the bears ate either. Poor salmon. I guess the world isn't really like The Lion King.

M-Rex
February 6, 2006, 04:34 PM
The fox family was really cute. He should have studied and protected the fox in "fox country" instead of bears in "bear country.":)

I like how he selectively liked some animals and not others. He didn't care too much for the wolves who killed one of the fox. If he would have chosen wolves to get to know and protect his POV would have been totally different. He didn't care about what the bears ate either. Poor salmon. I guess the world isn't really like The Lion King.

I think that's because 'Salmon Man' doesn't sound nearly as cool as 'Grizzly Man'.;)

BigFatKen
February 6, 2006, 05:04 PM
I read a number of years ago, when video camers were still expensive, that some guy wanted to tape a buffalo runing. They were all laying down. So, to get his money's worth, he got out of his car and kicked the "docile" animal to get it to move. Last thing he ever did.

Satch
February 6, 2006, 05:44 PM
This reminds me of a story about a year ago about a "tree Hugger" who climbed a redwood in a ********** forest to keep it from being harvested. He was talked into coming down and on the way slipped and fell to his death.The odd thing was the tree didn't try to catch him.:what:

JesseJames
February 6, 2006, 07:22 PM
This reminds me of a story about a year ago about a "tree Hugger" who climbed a redwood in a ********** forest to keep it from being harvested. He was talked into coming down and on the way slipped and fell to his death.The odd thing was the tree didn't try to catch him.:what:

:D LOL:D

Gotta love those deluded hippie types. Their behavior is at least worth a chuckle now and then.

MillCreek
February 6, 2006, 08:34 PM
He never saw a grizzly bear in his life. The bear he was hanging out with were all coastal Alaskan brown bears during the salmon run.

Here in the North Cascades, we have only the occasional black bear from time to time, and I have only seen this type of bear. Having only been to Alaska for business meetings, my knowledge as to Alaskan bears is regrettably limited. So were all the bears that we saw in that movie brown bears? And do grizzly bears actually inhabit that same area? And come to think of it, just how many different types of bears can be found in Alaska? Pardon my numerous questions, but I am genuinely curious about this.

Dr.Rob
February 6, 2006, 09:03 PM
(from Alaska Fish & Game)

Browns and Grizzlies are the same animal, not a different species.General description: Formerly, taxonomists listed brown and grizzly bears as separate species. Technically, brown and grizzly bears are classified as the same species, Ursus arctos. Brown bears on Kodiak Island are classified as a distinct subspecies from those on the mainland because they are genetically and physically isolated. The shape of their skulls also differs slightly.

The term “brown bear” is commonly used to refer to the members of this species found in coastal areas where salmon is the primary food source. Brown bears found inland and in northern habitats are often called “grizzlies.”

IndianaDean
February 6, 2006, 09:42 PM
(from Alaska Fish & Game)

Browns and Grizzlies are the same animal, ”


Hmmm, I've known that for years. I did not realize there was debate about it.

I don't have much sympathy for Treadwell, sorry. He was an idiot. I feel more sorry for his girlfriend losing her life falling for his stupidity.

I had not heard about him being killed when I saw promos for the movie over the weekend. However my first thought was "What a moron, it would serve him right if the bears eat him." Maybe that's wrong, but that's what I thought. When I heard they had, I was not surprised, nor sympathetic.

I deplore the loss of human life, except when it's due to stupidity.

carebear
February 6, 2006, 11:38 PM
The browns, when the salmon are running, tend to be fat, dumb and happy which helps explain why Treadwell lasted as long as he did. His risk went way up during the drought he documents but apparently the bears found cubs easier and more "natural" meals.

Coastal brownies will outweigh the inland Griz by several hundred pounds due to the greater availability of food and milder climate extremes so inland griz, especially the barren grounders, tend to be more aggressive since they have to work harder for food. They'll dig a 10 foot hole just to get at a plump ground squirrel.

Salmon during the runs are neatly packaged fat and protein bars swimming by in the tens of thousands so the Coastals, once they establish a pecking order, just stick by their holes and eat.

It was the fact he stayed late, when the presumably smaller/older/weaker or inland bears came down to glean the scraps that even he was aware put him at greater risk (he mentioned the new bears were "scarier").

Cosmoline
February 7, 2006, 12:00 AM
So were all the bears that we saw in that movie brown bears? And do grizzly bears actually inhabit that same area? And come to think of it, just how many different types of bears can be found in Alaska? Pardon my numerous questions, but I am genuinely curious about this.

The bears all along Alaska's gulf coast and in the islands are generally classified as coastal brown bear. Bear genetics are pretty odd, and allow for vast physical differences within the same species. The true Ursus arctos horribilis--the grizzer--lives in the interior and western parts of the state and down into Canada and certain northern states. The grizzly bear are smaller and have a pretty well deserved reputation of being much meaner than their larger salmon-fed siblings. They have to roam further to get food and hibernate longer. I've read documented accounts of a griz boar charging and driving off one group after another of folks just drifting down the Yukon, forcing them to leap out of their boats. The same bear was later seen by a flying plane, JUMPING UP AND DOWN on the destroyed remains of the drift boats in an extended display of absolute rage. You rarely see that sort of thing from the larger coastal brown bear. The only time I've seen them, they've been running off. Which is fine by me. Sometimes they kill, of course, but that's not typical. An actual predation like Treadwell's is extremely rare. Which makes sense. Salmon just taste a lot better than people. They have so much food when the runs start it wouldn't be to their benefit to be overly aggressive with each other, so a sort of salmon truce seems to develop. You leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone. Treadwell confused this for pack dynamics, but it's nowhere near that complicated.

I worry more about the little black bear around town here and in Chugach. I've nearly tripped over them on the trail before, and they sometimes show a disturbing tendency to not run off. They wouldn't turn down a little manflesh if it looked easy to get. After all, they can't start snatching salmon without risking becoming a meal of a brown bear. So they're not quite as picky about what they eat. And their eyes just seem smarter than the big brown guys.

Here's an interesting piece about scrappy little griz running off polar bear from whale carcasses:

http://www.adn.com/front/story/6415667p-6294323c.html

Despite the odor from rotting bowhead and the sound of chomping jaws, the midnight scene at the bone dump along the Arctic Ocean was remarkably peaceful. Recorded as part of a three-year study of polar bear feeding behavior, it showed that these predators were willing to share discarded remains with each other, said federal biologist Susi Miller.

But then the majestic rulers of Beaufort Sea ice met their match: a scrappy tundra grizzly.

As Miller and a colleague watched from the cab of a pickup, a small brown bear sow emerged from the darkness and ambled up the spit, trailed by two yearling cubs. Without hesitation, the grizzly lunged at the first polar bear, huffing and snarling, driving it into the lagoon. Soon the second, third and fourth polar bears had joined it, leaving the food to a gnarly little bruin about one-third their size.

beaucoup ammo
February 7, 2006, 09:55 AM
"My name is Timothy Treadwell, and I live with the wild Grizzly."...Timothy Treadwell

Are you suggesting that on top of being mauled, eated alive and forever the punch line of bad jokes, Treadwell's misfortune is compounded by the fact he didn't know the kind of bear he was fixated on? Thanks for the clarification.

That's a bummer of the first order.

Take Care

TallPine
February 7, 2006, 10:24 AM
Salmon just taste a lot better than people.
Okay ... I'll take your word for it ;) :p

(I know I got awful tired of eating salmon back when I lived up there, but some people have a knack for cooking it into near-inedibility:( )

MillCreek
February 7, 2006, 10:50 AM
Thanks to all, especially our Alaska contingent, for educating me on the different bear types in Alaska. Very interesting. Although as the previous poster points out, it is a bummer to be unclear on the nomenclature of the wild creature that is eating you.

Cosmoline
February 7, 2006, 12:47 PM
"Are you suggesting that on top of being mauled, eated alive and forever the punch line of bad jokes, Treadwell's misfortune is compounded by the fact he didn't know the kind of bear he was fixated on? Thanks for the clarification.

That's exactly what I'm saying. He either didn't know or didn't care. Granted, locals sometimes call brown bear "grizzly," but for an "expert" to not realize the difference is pretty bad.

Carl N. Brown
February 7, 2006, 12:57 PM
So, when Ursus arctos hangs around the coast eating salmon and getting
fat and mellow, Ursus arctos is called brown bear; but when Ursus arctos
lives inland scrabbling for scarce food and getting scrawny and cranky,
Ursus arctos is called horribilis grizzly bear. Same DNA, just different
living conditions causing difference in attitude and temperment. Sounds
like a lot of people I know. Sounds like me at different times in my life.

Camp David
February 7, 2006, 01:03 PM
I just saw it and I’m speechless. The brightest bulb I saw other than the Native American was the guy who said.” I donno how he lasted so long, hell the bears probably thought he was retarded or something.” Then one day the bear has enough and says.” You know that might be good to eat”.

Sorry he was a few cans short of a six pack.

Cupcake? CUPCAKE?! What sort of mind names a large, dangerous predator after a freaking baked snack?

Within this thread there is quite a bit of overlooked humor which is hysterical! Good work guys! Funny stuff! :)

Brad Johnson
February 7, 2006, 01:33 PM
I feel sorry for Treadwell's friends and family, and the friends and family of the woman that was killed, but the situation is just patently laughable.

I put it right up there with using a match to check your gas tank. It's not a matter of 'if', but 'when'. The guy was a fruit loop, pure and simple. It's really sad that A) someone made a documentary highlighting a life of inherently self-destructive behavior, and B) a lot of the general public is so blindly sympathetic to animals that they will excuse Treadwell's behavior as necessary. Hey, I like animals, too. But I know better than to go around trying to cozy up to VLWTWTAC (Very Large Wild Things With Teeth And Claws).

By the way, if you ever wondered what the average PETA member was like in person, now you know. He would have been one of the more normal ones.

Brad

beaucoup ammo
February 7, 2006, 01:45 PM
In a land of beauty, wonder and danger, he would follow a dream, fall in love and risk his life to save the bears from extinction.

A noble effort, however the more I think about it..the less sympathy I can muster for the man. As Cosmoline, who lives in Alaska put it: "for an 'expert' to not realize the difference (between brown and Grizzly) is pretty bad."

Might end up as Darwin Award candidate.

Take Care

MDG1976
February 7, 2006, 07:02 PM
I watched "Grizzly Man" this weekend. It's my opinion that Treadwell suffered from Schizophrenia. He was clearly dilusional (he believed he was some kind of bear savior) and paranoid (someone wrote "See you next Summer Timmy" on a log and he freaks out and thinks it's some kind of warning). He also displayed severe mood swings. Combine that with susbstance abuse and supressed homosexuallity and you're got a recipe for disaster.

JesseJames
February 7, 2006, 07:57 PM
Is there really a lot of mentally ill people up in Alaska?
I'd imagine the natives are somewhat normal but Alaska must surely get its share of Walter Mitty types.
Which isn't a good thing.
This makes me also think of that guy Christopher McCandless who dropped everything in life and went to live in the woods in Alaska. Sad.
Who really knows what possesses these folks to become Luddite recluses. Majority don't seem like misanthropes. Why don't they join a commune or something?
I've had the fantasy of going to the wilderness and living like a mountain man when I was a kid. That movie "Jeremiah Johnson" didn't help either.
But, I grew out of it. I like owning nice things. I love going outdoors but I love coming back into the warm indoors even more afterwards.
Maybe my stint in the Army knocked it out of me finally. Ex-Infantry. Got tired of being exhausted, dirty, cold, and wet. Some young men just need that experience.

Carl N. Brown
February 14, 2006, 01:33 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35523&stc=1&d=1139941707












some things are so freaking crazy you have to laugh to keep from screaming
watching timmy treadwell was like watching a slow motion trainwreck

Kodi Bear
March 24, 2006, 01:57 PM
Someone suggested that Tim was with the bears to make a movie and was self centered..... Perhaps someday he may have made a movie about the Bears and his experience but i seriously doubt that his main intention was to glorify himself. He had plenty of film for many years to put a movie together. I believe that Timothy felt a great affinity to the bears. He saw the Bears as his friends and family. He wanted to protect them just as most people want to protect their four legged family members. Many among us would die to save our pets that we have bonded to. Many among us would call our dogs, cats, horses, skunks, snakes etc part of our family. I believe that Tim hoped to protect his family from poachers and to insure that the bears would be around for years to come. (yes there are poachers even in national parks)
Timothy brought awareness to the public about the beauty and love he felt for the bears just as an artist does with paintings. Sadly, he pushed the envelope a bit far and he and Amie were killed by a bear. He may have not made the wisest choices in his dealings with the bears, however, his work brought us many photos and a few wonderfully informative books about the life of brown bears.
I RESPECT FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I thank you Tim for all the work that you have done and for all the lessons that you have brought us about the nature of ourselves and bears. I thank you Amie for the love that you brought to tim and the work that you have done in the world.
NOBODY DESERVES to die regardless of their unwise choices. Though I am saddened by Tim and Aimie's death, I am looking to the lessons that are there for us: The right to the FREEDOM of CHOICE and the consequences of that choice.
I too love bears. There are many ways to love; they all have their consequences. I am relieved that the documentary pointed out that it is important to maintain a healthy distance from bears and other natural wild animals. It is my belief that it is important to not habituate wild animals to people. Somewhere along the line Timothy did not learn that lesson about bears. Sadly, he learned the difficult way but i doubt that it bothered him. For Tim, it may have been an honor to be consumed by his brother the bear. He would not blame the bear. He knew about the predatory nature of the bears as did Amie. Timothy made his choices about the bears and how he wanted to live his life. In doing so, he brought our world an awareness of bears that perhaps never existed before. I shall miss you Tim.
Also, I do not blame Timothy for the death of Amie. She had made her choices too. We are each responsible for our own lives and the choices that we make about them. Aimie and Tim lived boldly. They did not choose the safety of a couch and remote control. They LIVED. Rest in Peace. I love you and I thank you. Kodi Bear

Husker1911
March 24, 2006, 02:04 PM
Save The Grass! Stop smoking it!

PlayboyPenguin
March 24, 2006, 02:32 PM
My business partner's sister actually knew this guy. He was a failed actor in Cali around the same time she was deciding she was a failed actress. She said he was "completely mental". That he made her and most of her friends very nervous just being around him.

Z_Infidel
March 24, 2006, 02:33 PM
We are each responsible for our own lives and the choices that we make about them.

Well, ya got that part right.

Carl N. Brown
March 24, 2006, 02:48 PM
Bears are forces of nature like volcanoes, earthquakes, avalanches:
they are awesome and they deserve respect, but they are mot
what Tim Treadwell acted like they were: walking Disney characters
out of Bambi.
He had no points of contact with reality and endangered himself
and the bears!
All the good intentions in the world could not make up for that.
He thought he was helping the bears, but he did not understand.

Mongo the Mutterer
March 24, 2006, 03:48 PM
... all the lessons that you have brought us about the nature of ourselves and bears.Yep, like don't let them eat you!

And don't trip over your own hubris, you might not be able to run fast enough...

Legionnaire
March 24, 2006, 04:37 PM
For Tim, it may have been an honor to be consumed by his brother the bear.:banghead:

TrapperReady
March 24, 2006, 04:56 PM
In doing so, he brought our world an awareness of bears that perhaps never existed before.


Yep. Who would have thought bears were omnivores? I thought they only ate honey and picnic baskets.

Brad Johnson
March 24, 2006, 06:10 PM
...and have friends named BooBoo.

Brad

Mongo the Mutterer
March 24, 2006, 06:21 PM
Kodi, even though you are a troll, you are very amusing:

NOBODY DESERVES to die regardless of their unwise choices. Though I am saddened by Tim and Aimie's death, I am looking to the lessons that are there for us: The right to the FREEDOM of CHOICE and the consequences of that choice. Yep "FREEDOM of CHOICE" ... love the caps... Yes freedom to be an idiot. Oh, by the way, if you are a fool you may "DESERVE" to die in Mother Natures view.

The only issue I see is the bears that had to be put down because of this idiot and his unfortunate girl friend.

Harve Curry
March 24, 2006, 07:15 PM
I had a black bear walk along side me and a bow elk hunter a few years ago. It was dark, no moon, brushy and steep for 1/2 mile. We kept hearing footsteps next to us but couldn't locate it even with a flash light. We got to the tree stand and finished the morning with no elk seen. On the way back we saw the bear tracks, sometimes within 20 feet of ours. I carry a hot loaded 44spl , had it out that dark morning, but otherwise have never needed it except to deter the two legged rascals.

odysseus
March 24, 2006, 07:22 PM
Kodi Bear
New Member


Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1

Looks like a Google search found its mark. Post #1. Thank you Mr. Chocolate!

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
March 25, 2006, 10:24 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Timothy Eatenwell got those bears killed, just for doing their job.

They are tier one predators, and it is their sole duty as wild animals, in the wild nonetheless, to predate upon the lesser in the food chain. They did absolutely nothing wrong in killing and eating him, and his girlfriend. He was delusional.

akodo
March 25, 2006, 04:41 PM
there have been some posts in here talking about 'he was mentally ill, why make fun of him, talk bad about him'.

Yes, he was mentally ill. I think you can be a horribly uneducated blissninny, but if you were exposed to the stuff he had seen (male bears eating bearcubs) your brain would process this data and reject the teachings you had in malibu.

That being said, there are PLENTY of mentally ill people whose illness causes them to eventually become homeless, where they die from exposure, crime, inability to get simple diseases treated, etc etc.

The difference between a tim style nut and a homeless nut is the stuff treadwell was doing.

I don't see homeless people who are so crazy they think wearing yellow socks will prevent oncomming cars from coliding with them being offered the chance to spread their message to schoolchildren. Timmy, however, was given this chance. Hence his death may actually be saving lives.

Unexposed blissninnies were able to paint this guy as an expert. Again, crazy joe on the corner who licks the traffic light pole (this is why the walk-don't walk sign changes, because of his licking, not because of an internal timer)doesn't get to be called a traffic expert.

Crazy homeless guy may stand there and tell you if you give him $5 he will wave his tinfoil wand over you, which will protect you from alien abduction. We don't buy this, and the more cynical amungst us may well question if even the crazy guy beleives it, or if it is just a scam so he can get booze/drugs. Yet timmy was pulling the same scam by claiming he was out there protecting the bears.

Treadwell's stance as an 'expert' put real experts to shame. Who can say how many times real ecology efforts had to deal with people who were educated by tim and hence interfered with efforts to get important stuff done. (Like allowing firearm carry in that area of the park, or even an occasional hunt there) How many people saw this expert and tried to extend his logic to other animals besides grizzlies.

Our world is safer with bears eating people like treadwell.

Regarding 'freedom of choice'. I don't think the government should outlaw the activity timmy was out doing. (although requiring rescue/recovery insurance so the taxpayer isn't footing the final cost of one man's dumb descision) However, it is my freedom of choice to not shed a tear over this guy's death.

Further NOBODY DESERVES to die regardless of their unwise choices Bull????. Each and every human bering is going to die. It seems to me that dying because of your own unwise choice is the FAIREST way of dying, the most deserved way of dying. Want to talk about undeserved death? Lets try death due to homicidal dictator, drunk driver, or cancer. If your actions, taken under your own free will lead to something, then in my book, that is what you deserve. This runs the gammit of choosing a wise investment and getting rich, to taking a boat out while drunk and drowning.


Finally Many among us would die to save our pets that we have bonded to. Many among us would call our dogs, cats, horses, skunks, snakes etc part of our family.

I tell you right now, I love my pets to death. However, I am not going to run into a burning building to get my cat out if it somehow gets trapped.

My life & My family's live >Other human beings>My pets>Other animals

carebear
March 26, 2006, 12:55 AM
...and those weren't Tim's "pets". Which is part of his and the other ignoramuses problem.

They apparently can't deal with the idea that life isn't a Disney film, that nature is indeed "red in tooth and claw" and have to anthromorphize animals into some kind of furry little brothers who need our love and protection rather than wild creatures that need to be dealt with with respect and discretion.

Mongo the Mutterer
March 26, 2006, 09:07 AM
wild creatures that need to be dealt with with respect and discretionCarebear ... what you said. Treating any wild animal as a "pet" is not only unwise and dangerous, it is also disrespectful of the animal and Nature.

It is an arrogance of attitude which deserves to be corrected.

PlayboyPenguin
March 26, 2006, 12:59 PM
wild creatures that need to be dealt with with respect and discretion
You got that right. A long time ago when I was a wee babe buck private (well an e-3 anyway) I got to witness two guys (one cpl. and a specialist) think it was would be funny to go up to a beaver we came across and try and pick it up for a photo. This was not a huge beaver, probably about 30-40lbs so most likely a female. Long story short, nearly 200 stitches and an emergency evac later we had a funny story to tell and there was a beaver loose in the wild with a taste for human blood. :)

Biker
March 26, 2006, 01:02 PM
And a great headline for that story would be:

'Behold The Power Of Beaver!'

Biker

4v50 Gary
March 26, 2006, 01:14 PM
Traditional Muzzle Loading Forum Palaver Hide (http://members.boardhost.com/muzzleloader/msg/1139060642.html)This was written by Carl/NYC at the Traditional Muzzle Loading Forum.

"God Protects Drunks and Fools", August 27, 1997
Reviewer: A reader

On the surface, Timothy Treadwell's book "Among Grizzlies" is a book about one of my favorite subjects: bears. This is why I read the book from start to finish. But it isn't long after one begins the book before one realizes that just beneath the surface this is actually a book about a man with a death wish and all the talk about bears (which can make for an adequate "bear read", mind you) is really a series of descriptions of this sad individual's numerous attempts to force a horrible death upon himself.

Treadwell begins his book by describing his being shot at by drug dealers and his having taken an overdose of illegal narcotics that only CPR and an Emergency Room could bring him back from. From the beginning to the end of the book he talks about his addiction to and abuse of alcohol. When he reaches the point of the book at which he sets out to live among Alaska's wild Grizzly Bears and describes the many times that he was charged by irate Grizzlies for having come within ridiculously close proximity to these bears in his attempts to kiss them on the nose, etc, it is clear that his interest in bears is simply a continuation of a long progression of suicide attempts disguised as "experimentation". At the end of the book he tells us that of all the bears he came to know during his stays in the Alaskan wilderness, the one he "loved the most" was the one bear that had tried most seriously to kill him.

This book is by no means scientific. In fact, I have never read a book written by a person who had spent so much time in the wilderness only to come away from it with so little understanding of it. At times Treadwell admits to being a very incapable wilderness explorer and he tells his readers of such instances as the first time night fell upon him while he was alone in the wilderness. In that instance his problem was that once it had become dark he realized that he had never so much as unrolled the tent he had brought to live in and so he would be totally unable to set it up in the darkness.

But in another bizarre description of his being totally surrounded by nature's bounty, watching huge Grizzly Bears procuring so many clams that they were fattening for winter as he watched, Treadwell worries that he will starve to death because he had eaten his last Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich and finished off his last can of Tuna Fish and the plane that was scheduled to bring him more food had not arrived on the anticipated day! Unfortunately, he wasn't kidding.

This would be a harmless, albeit a bit ridiculous, book were it not for the fact that Treadwell adopts a superior, "Holier Than Thou" attitude toward hunters and other wilderness explorers. He talks about legal hunters and poachers as if they were one and the same and he blames licenced sportsmen for the decline of America's Grizzly population. This is untrue. He also blames sight seers in the Alaskan wilderness for driving bears to inadequate habitats and refers to these tourists as "these people", completely ignoring the fact that he is not only one of "these people" but also by far the most intrusive among them.

Bears are good. People are bad. Treadwell is good because Treadwell is a bear. This is Treadwell's strange, immature philosophy.

In his epilogue Treadwell reminds his readers that he never intended his book to have the effect upon others that Hemingway's description of the running of the bulls had.

I wouldn't worry about that, Tim.

I guess it's fairly obvious that as much as I enjoy reading about bears, I had an adverse reaction to the thought of Timothy Treadwell roaming among them and fancying himself one of them. There is a great deal of bear discussion in this book and many of his descriptions of bear behavior and the reaction of bears to Treadwell's behavior are not devoid of value for bear enthusiasts. For that, one might want to read this book. I might even recommend it.

My hope is that when Treadwell finally accomplishes his real goal, the bears he lives among will not acquire a taste for human flesh as a result of his having forced the meal upon them.

Mongo the Mutterer
March 26, 2006, 01:15 PM
Probably won't be the last time a soldier gets hurt on a beaver hunt either... :rolleyes:

VacuumJockey
March 27, 2006, 08:32 PM
I'm a bit late for this thread, sorry -- but this very interesting review of the movie (http://ruthlessreviews.com/movies/g/grizzlyman.html) has convinced me that it is a must-see. I do find Herzog a fascinating filmmaker.

Anyway, if someone had gotten poor Threadwell into treatment in time both he, his girlfriend, and the bears might still be alive. Yes, he made some stunningly bad choices, but his illness prevented him from thinking straight. And that is sad, even if the circumstances of his passing reads like the Darwin Awards.

Kodi Bear
April 1, 2006, 09:42 PM
Yet, I wonder how many of you have actually read any of Timothy Tredwells books. It is true that he acted in unprofessional ways with the bears in the wilderness. However, he never advocated that others do the same. In fact he emphazied the safest way to respond to a bear encounter throughout his books. He also brought much awareness to the public about bears being on the endagered species list. His books chronicaled the life of brown bears and their habitats and were brilliantly illustrated with close up photos that he took himself.
I am in agreement that Tim acted in ways with the bears that were not of his own teachings. He also obviously had unresolved issues about his life as we all do. His discomfort about his issues were just more blatent than most. He dared to be himself. I think that his life had value as all life does. Why not look to the positive side of the outcome?
Why tear down another human being? Does fear run your life are does love?
Something to think about......... Of course my musings are as much for me as for you the reader. Namaste Kodi bear

carebear
April 2, 2006, 06:18 AM
We're not running down Treadwell per se.

The truth just happens to be that the brown bears of Alaska are not, were not and aren't destined to be in the future(especially in the area he operated in) endangered or threatened on a species level in any way. So all his comments to the contrary were basically self-serving lies.

He, by his published and marketed behaviour, implicitly DID advocate viewing and interacting with bears in an unsafe way ("do as I say, not as I do" being a weak argument at best when your "doing" is how you make your money).

"Fear" has nothing to do with any comments I make about Tim. He was a palpably misguided and, to a degree, insane individual who made a continuous series of poor, self-serving decisions that led to his own and another human's AND two bear's deaths. If Treadwell hadn't tried to play hero (for his own psychological needs) for animals that neither needed nor wanted him, all four of the creatures (two human, two ursine) that ended up dead would quite possibly still be alive.

There was and is a far better way to study bears, interact with bears in the wild and educate the public. Tim's was about as wrong as it is possible to get.

PX15
April 2, 2006, 10:48 AM
I'm a senior citizen living in the country in SE Ga. In our woodlands we have small black bears.. I'm not sure there's ever been a recorded bear attack on a human by a black bear..

AND I'm scared of those bears.

In my old fart opinion ANYONE who ventures into Grizzly, or Brown, or Polar bear country unarmed deserves what he/she gets.

I saw portions of the Treadwell video and he was a complete wacko. One scene showed his girlfriend sitting close to a bear and she was scared to death. As soon as she got away from that bear she should have been on the first thing smoking out of town.

Any adult in America who goes into big bear country unarmed, like Treadwell did is looking for trouble, and I'm just amazed it took so long to find him.

I have no sympathy for Treadwell or the young lady because to be quite honest they were both too stupid to live.

The bear proved it.

If Treadwell and his honey had stayed in ********** smoking dope there would be two more live bears, and two more live hippy wanna-be's..

Of course that's just my semi-senile redneck opinion.

JP :cuss:

rbernie
April 2, 2006, 11:49 AM
If you pardon the pun, a few quotes bear repeating.

the brown bears of Alaska are not, were not and aren't destined to be in the future(especially in the area he operated in) endangered or threatened on a species level in any way. So all his comments to the contrary were basically self-serving lies.

There was and is a far better way to study bears, interact with bears in the wild and educate the public. Tim's was about as wrong as it is possible to get.

It's really sad that A) someone made a documentary highlighting a life of inherently self-destructive behavior, and B) a lot of the general public is so blindly sympathetic to animals that they will excuse Treadwell's behavior as necessary.

They are tier one predators, and it is their sole duty as wild animals, in the wild nonetheless, to predate upon the lesser in the food chain. They did absolutely nothing wrong in killing and eating him, and his girlfriend. He was delusional.

Pretty much says anything I would need to say.

Leanwolf
April 2, 2006, 03:16 PM
CAREBEAR - "... "Goodbye cruel world." The world IS cruel. ..."
_________________________________________________________________

NATURE (or the World) is neither cruel, nor benevolent.

NATURE is neutral: indifferent.

Only Mankind can impose "cruelty." Animals (or animate organisms) can not be judged as "cruel," simply because they are acting through evolutionary hard wiring to maintain survival.

FWIW. L.W.

carebear
April 2, 2006, 10:50 PM
Yeah... "the world is cruel"

If you could point out where I or the author of the quote defined "world" to be "nature" I'd appreciate it.

Until then, perhaps the only explicit context in the quote of "a human in the world and his reaction to it" will suffice. Ya know, instead of imposing your interpretation on it to try to make a point.

:rolleyes:

Hawkmoon
April 3, 2006, 12:01 AM
I agree that Tredwell finally achieved what he set out to -- being eaten by a bear.

Unlike some others, however, I do feel sorrow for the girlfriend. Yes, she was stupid, but her stupidity was that she allowed herself to believe that idiot when he convinced her it would be safe out there with the bears.

He killed her, is the bottom line.

Cosmoline
April 3, 2006, 12:08 AM
I'm not sure there's ever been a recorded bear attack on a human by a black bear..

There have been quite a few. Sows attacks are less of a problem than with brown and griz, but they do sometimes turn predatory.

akodo
April 3, 2006, 12:21 AM
Lot of bold faced lies in the above post


In fact he emphazied the safest way to respond to a bear encounter throughout his books.

safest way to respond to a violent bear encounter is NOT with bearspray, it is with a 375 H&H or something similar, combined with the skill and nerves to use it.


He also brought much awareness to the public about bears being on the endagered species list. His books chronicaled the life of brown bears and their habitats and were brilliantly illustrated with close up photos that he took himself.


First statement, false. The bears he was 'protecting' aren't on the endadgered species list.

Seconds statment, actually a negative. Any self respecting nature photographer attempts to NOT interfere with the animals they are photograhing. They stay away, use blinds, and long distance zoom lenses, or whatever it takes to preserve their actual natural behavior for the photos. Timmy didn't do that. He was one step above photographers that set out food to attract bears for photos, that isn't natural.

I think that his life had value as all life does. Why not look to the positive side of the outcome?

All life has value, then why did he risk his life? he basically threw it away, but hey that's his business. He ALSO thew away his girlfriend's life, and put other people in danger coming to get his corpse


Why tear down another human being? Does fear run your life are does love?
Something to think about......... Of course my musings are as much for me as for you the reader. Namaste Kodi bear

Why tear down another human being? Because they are wrong and dangerous. I hope you woudl be willing to stand up and say to Adolph Hitler that his 'final solution' to jews is wrong, or would that be tearing Adolph down, and hence not acceptable. His examples and his suggestions and his ideas put other people AND other wild animals in danger.

Do you know what really helps bears, and a lot of other wildlife? Departments of Natural Resources, who get a lot of funding from hunting licence sales. Plus the land purchased with a part of all hunting licence sales. The truth is the hunter does a lot more for preserving all wildlife than the birdwatcher or the nature photographer.

If he was just a nut off by himself cavorting with the bears, and got eaten, I'd say he was still worthy of scorn. Why take a few bears with him, and put other people at risk? What's worse, he spread his crazy propaganda. not so much that people should go hug bears, but that all hunters are poachers, taht strategic harvesting of bears is wrong, and that these bears are endangered. He lied to get money to do what he wanted. In my book that makes him a con man.

Con men are the type of people who SHOULD be torn down

Cosmoline
April 3, 2006, 12:28 AM
Why not look to the positive side of the outcome?

I agree. One less **********n :D

nvshooter
April 3, 2006, 02:10 AM
Would we be any more surprised if someone gets eaten by a shark after having been swimming with them for years? Wild animals don't respect the familiarity that we humans assign to them. They look out for themselves first. If they are hungry and you are right there, get ready for lunch, buddy-- you're it!

Berek
April 3, 2006, 02:22 AM
The bears' exposure to Treadwell and girlfriend probably didn't help much for instilling any fear of humans. Perhaps Treadwell’s familiarity bred carelessness, and his luck ran out. He’s not the first, and won’t be the last.

Well, I wonder how many ppl would walk up to a strange beast (animal, human or ???) that is 6 times their weight and strength, look them in the eye and say "No!" while poking it in the nose. While I feel for the loss of life and the mourning of the friends and family, it sounds like he was starting to think of some of these bears almost as most of us think of our pets.

Familiarity is a bad thing. We humans become complacent and forget ourselves at a time we can least afford to do so.

It's like the story of the scorpion and the toad. The scorpion needs to cross a stream but it can't swim. It sees a toad and begs the toad to give him a ride across the stream. The toad says "But you're a scorpion. You'll sting me and I'll die." To which the scorpion replies "I promise I won't. I just wish to get across the stream." After talking for a while, the toad reluctantly agrees. Halfway across the stream, the scorpion stings the toad. The toad says Why did you sting me? You promised you wouldn't and now we'll both die." The scorpion replied "I can't help it. It's who I am."

Just my $0.02... no offense intended to anyone...

Leanwolf
April 3, 2006, 02:20 PM
CAREBEAR - "The wrold IS cruel... Until then, perhaps the only explicit context in the quote of "a human in the world and his reaction to it" will suffice. Ya know, instead of imposing your interpretation on it to try to make a point."
_________________________________________________________________

Well, Carebear, if you want to "interpret" the word "world" to be something other than a comparatively tiny ball of dirt, rocks, living things, and water flying in an orbit around the sun, fine with me. You certainly have the right o impose your interpretation of my statement any way you wish, in order to make your point of refutation.

I interpret the word "world" to be the exactly that: a mass of dirt, rocks, living things, and water. The world IS Nature. I say again, " Nature (nor the world) is not cruel, nor benevolent. Nature is neutral; indifferent."

People can be cruel (and millions are and have been), but not "the world" or "Nature."

You have your interpretation: I have mine.

L.W.

akodo
April 3, 2006, 03:13 PM
Leanwolf, I hope you realize that the whole cruel world line is in carebear's sigfile, and is quoting another writer. Maybe you should bring up your beef with the originator.

Further, one definition of 'cruel' is 'uncaring' and by your definition of the world, uncaring definately applies.

Offwhite
April 3, 2006, 03:45 PM
My fiancee rented the DVD because as she put it "wanted to hear a hippie being eaten by a big friggin bear." Unfortunetly to her disapointment she didn't get to hear it but (and maybe its already been mentioned) did anyone else get the feeling that he didn't really give two squats about the bears but more about being in a movie or famous. Through the whole thing he does like five or sixs "takes" and in video diaries - like it is claimed to be - you dont have "takes." It looks like a lot of BS and he was very fake (even down to his made-up name).

PlayboyPenguin
April 3, 2006, 03:50 PM
I have to agree with you. This guy was a failed actor trying to grab some spotlight. As I stated before my business partner's sister actually new this guy and said he was a wacko that thought he deserved to be famous.

Offwhite
April 3, 2006, 03:59 PM
What's up PlayboyPenguin? I went to Marshall too (going along with what was said in another thread)

I don't know if its been said (I'm sure it has but I only read like the first five or so pages) but I think that the plan was for Treadwell to die up there all along. He knew that was the only way he would become famous. It's just a shame that he basically conned (I don't think I spelled that correctly) all of these people along the way & an obviously scared person (the girl) had to die as well.

ebd10
April 3, 2006, 04:09 PM
A long time ago when I was a wee babe buck private (well an e-3 anyway) I got to witness two guys (one cpl. and a specialist) think it was would be funny to go up to a beaver we came across and try and pick it up for a photo.

Got to witness a similar event in Panama involving a 3-toed sloth and an idiot that decided it wass fun to kick it over. On his 3rd try, he lost a jungle boot. Fortunately, he didn't lose his foot!

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