Soldiers beaten in the US. Police don't help.


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Didorian
August 28, 2005, 11:58 AM
My GF has a Military Girl Friends site and found this: http://www.komotv.com/stories/38771.htm
Now I've only read the sinopsis, can't run the video.
Once again, so few people realize that the police have no actual obligation to DEFEND you..... And they get so mad and upset when something like this happens.....
Saddly I don't blame the first cop on the scene for not rushing in to help, if what is written is true.
My question is this..... Why wern't these men armed?? Or atleast of a mindset that would allow them to fight back??
I just don't understand "Normal" people...... :(

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Jeeper
August 28, 2005, 12:03 PM
I saw this video the other day on the news and it is awful. It is really amazing that no one stopped to help from all the cars that drove by. Typical lowlife behavior. It all started after one of the soldiers was defending his girlfriend who got gropped by one of the attackers.

Didorian
August 28, 2005, 12:29 PM
Damn......... :confused:
Now if that is what's on the video then why wasn't any of that in the write up on it????
Now that ???? just pisses me off... :fire:
I use to run through similar scinarieos in my head for something like this but things never got that far..... I'm normally LOOKING OUT for trouble....
But Damn.... :cuss:

c_yeager
August 28, 2005, 12:50 PM
Just to give people some background on the area, Pioneer square is a VERY SMALL portion of Seattle. It is the central party location on any given night, and there are usually between around 5-10 uniformed officers in the viscinity (which accounts for about 2-3 city blocks) as well as numerous off-duty officers working the front door of EVERY SINGLE CLUB THERE. In other words, there were easily a half dozen cops within sight of this incident for the entire duration.

berettashotgun
August 28, 2005, 12:54 PM
My dad always used to say "Don't try and pluck a hair from the lions a$$ while he is awake" Those thugs need to be punished,but the poor guy needs to pick his dating grounds a little better.The dead pedestrian who stepped into the path of the moving truck actually had the right of way..................

Sleeping Dog
August 28, 2005, 02:20 PM
The video showed a few gruesome seconds of the beating. Mostly it's an interview with a relative of one of the beaten, arguing about whether it took 5 or 15 min for 911 response. And complaining about the cop that didn't intervene.

No info about how it started or whether the beaters are identified. This apparently happened at the end of July.

Regards.

carebear
August 28, 2005, 02:32 PM
I never found Pioneer Square a particularly dangerous spot to go out. It's prime tourist country. One feature (used to be anyway) was a pay one cover charge for most of the bars fronting the square. That could lead to a cheap drunk if one tended that way.

stealthmode
August 28, 2005, 04:14 PM
very disturbing :fire:

scubie02
August 28, 2005, 05:31 PM
personally I'd like to see the soldier's unit go find those guys and see how they fared when it wasn't about 20 or 20 guys against 2 or 3...

Bad Words
August 28, 2005, 05:37 PM
Just to give people some background on the area, Pioneer square is a VERY SMALL portion of Seattle. It is the central party location on any given night, and there are usually between around 5-10 uniformed officers in the viscinity (which accounts for about 2-3 city blocks) as well as numerous off-duty officers working the front door of EVERY SINGLE CLUB THERE. In other words, there were easily a half dozen cops within sight of this incident for the entire duration.
Most nights there are only 2 police officers assigned to West Precinct. Also, that video looks like it's at Jackson and 1st, where there's no off-duty officer working, especially since the SPD's recent troubles with off-duty club work.

R.H. Lee
August 28, 2005, 05:40 PM
I couldn't get the video. Why do people even bother with Quicktime? It's the worst. Seems like more an more of this third world stuff is happening. Seattle of all places! Time is overdue to take back the streets IMO.

MillCreek
August 28, 2005, 05:45 PM
And also living in the Seattle area, let me point out that in any establishment that serves alcohol, concealed carry is prohibited by state law, unless you are a LEO. And for many of the Pioneer Square clubs, door security runs a metal detector over you to ensure that you are not carrying. So if you want to carry in Pioneer Square, don't go to any of the bars!

dpesec
August 28, 2005, 05:45 PM
I wasn't able to load the video. Did the soldiers even try and defend themselves. But either way, I agree those animals should be shipped over to Iraq as engineers :) (read mine clearing) :evil:

Bad Words
August 28, 2005, 06:12 PM
I wasn't able to load the video. Did the soldiers even try and defend themselves?
The soldiers were out cold for the entire video. Just showed people stomping on their heads and then holding one of them up seemingly to brag to all the witnesses. There were about a dozen or so pedestrians watching, and a big line of cars driving by at about 5 mph due to traffic.

rwc
August 29, 2005, 12:56 AM
Most nights there are only 2 police officers assigned to West Precinct. Also, that video looks like it's at Jackson and 1st, where there's no off-duty officer working, especially since the SPD's recent troubles with off-duty club work.

Quite true. There's been something of an SPD scandal around off-duty officers working at clubs (through a union organized highering service only) where SPD officers were turning a blind eye to, or participating in, illegal activity. Not many officers there at all unless you've got a protest march coming through.

FWIW - My wife and I lived at First & Jackson for a year and a half two years ago (walking to work is great). Frankly, the greatest annoyances were drunk frat-boys peeing on our doorway, and drunk motorcyclists drag racing after the bars closed. The greatest danger are these kind of fights. I'm a good 20 years from being a club-goer so no threat to me.

What Pioneer Sq. or downtown Seattle as a whole is not, is a good place to raise kids. We're 4 miles away now and worried about what we're going to do in 5 years when it is school time. :banghead:

joachim slim
August 29, 2005, 01:29 AM
whats the old saying? all it takes for evil to abound is for good men to do nothing. i had some people with bad intentions circle my daughter and her friend while we stopped at a fual stop in west memphis. as they came back to the car the were harrassed worse. all it tookm was a show of mr. ruger and the so called bad boys disappeared. :cool:

chopinbloc
August 29, 2005, 04:49 AM
:fire: :fire: :fire: :fire: :fire: :fire:
police departments have no duty to protect as they cannot protect everyone. police officers do have a duty to protect. they are sworn, what exactly is it they swear. i know i swore to protect THEIR sorry ass and every other american, what is an leo's oath? public servants have taken on a job, often dangerous, where people's lives are at stake. a fireman cannot choose not to rescue someone because he's scared and the same goes for a cop that worthless punk should be fired. the soldier could easily have died, therefore if it seemed to risky to use less lethal measures the officer could have simply shot the offenders. i would have.

Sleeping Dog
August 29, 2005, 06:47 AM
the officer could have simply shot the offenders

That would be the simplest thing to do, of course.

After interviewing everyone on the scene to determine which ones were the offenders and which were the defenders. After double checking the stories to see if they're consistent. After allowing for the hyperbole of the relatives who are present. After figuring out who's lying. After keeping everyone orderly so you don't forget who gave which answers and who didn't get interviewed and who got interviewed twice.

After all that, then yes, shoot the offenders. Making sure the shooting is on someone's video, so you get all due credit for the shoot.

Regards.

Geno
August 29, 2005, 07:24 AM
The "gentleman" who stated that the, "'monkeys' should be found and handed" is off base and out-of-line. Such racial slurs remove the focus from the beaters, to the viewers. It also lends itself to use by others top justify Black America's legitimate use of violence as a reaction to years of passive aggressive racism. I've heard that line of "crap" in the Detroit area for too many years. Violence is wrong and so is bigotry.

Regarding this matter, they are all on videotape. Fire the cop(s) who were passive. Find the BGs and imprison them for life...no parole. This situation is food for thought for America...where would we all be without our firearms?!?! We would be at the mercy of cowardly cops, abusive cops, and conscienceless BGs. The good, honest and brave cops would NEVER be able to be everywhere all the time.

Doc2005

Zach S
August 29, 2005, 07:50 AM
After interviewing everyone on the scene to determine which ones were the offenders and which were the defenders.
Here's a scenerio involving two guys, named "Guy 1" and "Guy 2."

Guy 1 is out cold, laying on the asphalt. Guy 2 is stomping on his head. Hmmm....

OH25shooter
August 29, 2005, 08:54 AM
I watched the video. As a retired LEO have seen and been involved in simular incidents working a one-man cruiser. Don't know what is going on in the SPD regarding internal problems, but cops DO come to aid of injured parties such as recorded on that video. We get paid and are trained for such. If an officer was nearby and did nothing...I say FIRE that incompetent, coward, lazy-ass officer. Besides, who else is going to help, certainly not all the people driving by in those cars. Unbelievable. :fire:

chopinbloc
August 29, 2005, 11:10 AM
After interviewing everyone on the scene to determine which ones were the offenders and which were the defenders.

as was already mentioned, the individual who is continuing his aggressive activity against a limp body is the bad guy. the limp (possibly dead) body is the victim. how hard is that?

Sleeping Dog
August 29, 2005, 11:36 AM
the limp (possibly dead) body is the victim. how hard is that?

In this case, that would seem to be correct.

In some other instance, the limp (possibly dead) body could be the terrorist / drug-dealer / child-molester / perpetrater target of some instant mob justice. A bad situation, but not one where "simply shoot the offenders" is the best choice.

Handcuffs all around, and a big paddy wagon would be a better choice. Let the interviews and justice system sort it out.

Regards.

Henry Bowman
August 29, 2005, 12:06 PM
And also living in the Seattle area, let me point out that in any establishment that serves alcohol, concealed carry is prohibited by state law, unless you are a LEO. Not exactly true. CCW is only prohibited in "21 and over" establishments or portion of the establishments. This means "bars" and would cover all relevant Pioneer Square establishments.


It's fashionable to be an anarchist in Seattle, and fashionable to be "tolerrant" of freaks and idiots of all types. The pounders were just "expressing themselves against a symbol of repression and government" so "who am I to judge them or interfere?"

MillCreek
August 29, 2005, 12:56 PM
And also living in the Seattle area, let me point out that in any establishment that serves alcohol, concealed carry is prohibited by state law, unless you are a LEO.

Not exactly true. CCW is only prohibited in "21 and over" establishments or portion of the establishments. This means "bars" and would cover all relevant Pioneer Square establishments.

The actual pertinent portion of RCW 9.41.300 is this:

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:
(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age;

So, as I mentioned earlier, concealed carry is prohibited in bars, taverns or those areas of restaurants excluding minors because they serve alcohol. There are a few Pioneer Square businesses that do not serve alcohol, but they may have their own policies against carry.

buzz_knox
August 29, 2005, 12:59 PM
The "gentleman" who stated that the, "'monkeys' should be found and handed" is off base and out-of-line.

Actually, "monkey" is a term used by many to denote subhumans of any race, color, or creed.

LynnMassGuy
August 29, 2005, 02:52 PM
The "gentleman" who stated that the, "'monkeys' should be found and handed" is off base and out-of-line.


Since when is "monkey" a racial slur? It's a fitting description. They were acting like a bunch of monkeys. Have you ever watched monkeys on the Discovery channel when they get all wound up and kill something? That's how they behave. Actually, more like baboons but why split hairs over exact primate species? Unless of course YOU think black people look like monkeys...that's something you'll need to sort out on your own.

Regards
John

BeLikeTrey
August 29, 2005, 03:55 PM
HOSE THEM ALL. THEN PULL OUT YOUR NIGHT STICK :cuss:
AND USE THAT SUPER GLOCKERRRIFIC TASER

Malamute
August 29, 2005, 04:42 PM
"Quote:
the officer could have simply shot the offenders


That would be the simplest thing to do, of course.

After interviewing everyone on the scene to determine which ones were the offenders and which were the defenders. After double checking the stories to see if they're consistent. After allowing for the hyperbole of the relatives who are present. After figuring out who's lying. After keeping everyone orderly so you don't forget who gave which answers and who didn't get interviewed and who got interviewed twice.

After all that, then yes, shoot the offenders. Making sure the shooting is on someone's video, so you get all due credit for the shoot."



I sort of like this approach. It should be used for drunk drivers that are repeat offenders, or cause injury or death. I call it "field termination".
(yes, I have been hit by a repeat offender drunk driver)



"Quote:
the limp (possibly dead) body is the victim. how hard is that?


In this case, that would seem to be correct.

In some other instance, the limp (possibly dead) body could be the terrorist / drug-dealer / child-molester / perpetrater target of some instant mob justice. A bad situation, but not one where "simply shoot the offenders" is the best choice.

Handcuffs all around, and a big paddy wagon would be a better choice. Let the interviews and justice system sort it out."



Pepper, LOTS of Pepper. Easier to hook up and sort out multiple offenders when they are not mobile.




I didn't take the monkey comment as racial. I haven't seen the video, and don't know if the perps were dark or light skinned. The image in my mind was light skinned.

buzz_knox
August 29, 2005, 04:50 PM
After interviewing everyone on the scene to determine which ones were the offenders and which were the defenders. After double checking the stories to see if they're consistent. After allowing for the hyperbole of the relatives who are present. After figuring out who's lying. After keeping everyone orderly so you don't forget who gave which answers and who didn't get interviewed and who got interviewed twice.

Actually, no. We seem to be forgetting that there is a group of people attacking the two on the ground. That's a deadly force situation in which the group are the perpetrators and the two on the ground are victims. They may be child molesters, traitors to humanity, what have you. But legally, they are incapable of defending themselves and are no longer aggressive. The mob has become a vigilante group. The cops are authorized to save the lives of the "victims" through deadly force against the mob. No interviews or information gathering beyond the evidence of the officers' own eyes is necessary.

Malamute
August 29, 2005, 04:58 PM
I think Buzz is correct, my previous, semi-tongue in cheek posts notwithstanding.

My first thought was to start working in from the edges of the aggressive group, getting it thinned out to where you could get a clear shot at those in the middle.

GlenJ
August 29, 2005, 04:59 PM
Was the victim white? If so were's the outrage and the cries of hate crime?? That's why I have no faith in LEOs. Earlyer this year a kid near my back yard threatended to have his father come after me with a rifle so of course I called the police and I had to call them a second time before they got there!! When he got there it was the same old story "there's not much we can do he's a juvenile"

Sleeping Dog
August 29, 2005, 08:16 PM
Was the victim white?

No. From the video, I got the impression that victims and offenders are all black. So I don't think it was triggered by race.

Don't know about the cop.

Regards.

nyresq
August 29, 2005, 10:45 PM
Once again, so few people realize that the police have no actual obligation to DEFEND you..... And they get so mad and upset when something like this happens.....

uh... what country do you live in?

The police have an absolute obligation to uphold the law, and unless someone changed the CPL since I went through the academy, I think assault is against the law, attempted murder is against the law, and hell if you want to look for more charges disorderly conduct is against the law.
The police have sworn to defend the public and uphold the law, thats what they are paid for. If they didn't have to defend the public, then there would be no need for hostage negotiators, they could let them kill the hostage and arrest the BG when he walked out afterwards. There would be no need for traffic stops, just wait till they crash and kill some one then give them a ticket for reckless driving.

Its because of idiots with badges who think they don't get paid to be in harms way that the police get a bad rap for situations like this. You raise your hand and swear to protect the public and uphold the law. To do that you WILL NEED to go in harms way, if you don't like it, hand in your badge.

One cop with a can of spray, a baton and a little bit of attitude can neutralize a situation like this, and can stop the savage beating that was going on after the soldiers were down and out. If the mutants are stupid enough to go after the cop, then he would be justified in shooting every one who was "man enough" to go after him. I think after the first one dropped, the others would re-evaluate their need to establish their "street cred, yo".

I've been in situations like this, both on the street and in a cell block, and when it comes down to it, most mutants don't want a faceful of spray.
Theres a reason its called "the man in the can", "liquid karate" or "instant backup"... anyones who's been sprayed either for qualifacation or by accident can tell you, its evil sh*t, and once you've been sprayed you will always remeber it.
Never underestimate what one well trained and motivated LEO can do with the proper tools.


as to the "racial slur"... those outside of law enforcement would be amazed at the names that are given to BGs, and it has nothing to do with race, color, religious belief, nationality or economic background. I have BGs refered to as:
Mutts, mopes, mutants, tangos, perps (a NYC term), pups, monkeys, apes, rats, and skells are some of the more popular ones here in the NY metro area. you could start an entire thread with names for BGs. I have heard them all used for people of all genders, races ages, backgrounds etc all interchangebly

Taurus 66
August 29, 2005, 11:36 PM
Had the police officer on the scene intervened, he would have been no better off than the two victims, sorry to say. He's not going to shoot at these thugs, especially with a large crowd standing around. I believe he was right to wait for backup. Now the speed at which backup arrived is another matter.

Gordy Wesen
August 30, 2005, 01:27 AM
The pictures of these boys were aired on the news just before the weekend. I understand nobody has stepped forward yet to ID anybody... and given the recent video of snitch revenge it may not happen.
It would be nice to see some of the fellows from Fort Lewis take care of their own but that's not likely either. They've caught smaller fish than these with crummier video.

Snake Eyes
August 30, 2005, 01:46 AM
In Washington, it is legal to use your CCW to prevent the assault of another. Why didn't anyone shoot these perps?

Why didn't anyone offer to "back-up" the lone officer on the scene?

Why do criminals think it's ok to stomp downed people and have their friends video tape it?

Why have we developed into a society that has to ask these stupid, useless questions?? (Hint--If you think it's ALL the fault of liberals and Democrats, YOU'RE useless and ignorant).

c_yeager
August 30, 2005, 02:07 AM
In Washington, it is legal to use your CCW to prevent the assault of another. Why didn't anyone shoot these perps?

Yes, however state law prohibts carrying in any of the establishments in Pioneer square, so noone would have had the opportunity, even if they had the desire.

JJNA
August 30, 2005, 02:48 AM
Sheesh. I'm glad I left Seattle just in time (although I wish I could've helped those men who were attacked, I NEVER frequented Pioneer Square even when I lived there).

It seems that my predictions of declining quality of life in Seattle came true. See my column about that in the Seattle Times here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002239424_jamesna13.html

Also, you can read about why I left Seattle in another column here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002404018_jamesna27.html

chopinbloc
August 30, 2005, 06:58 AM
In some other instance, the limp (possibly dead) body could be the terrorist / drug-dealer / child-molester / perpetrater target of some instant mob justice. A bad situation, but not one where "simply shoot the offenders" is the best choice.

i would agree if there were enough officers there to control the situtation with a lesser means of force and i believe it would be appropriate to start with chemical force, but due to the number of people involved one is likely to run out quickly. if you've ever seen a use of force model, otherwise known as the force continuum, you know that that situation sits right at the top of the pyramid. the reason the man on the ground is the victim, like i mentioned and others said is that he is unable to defend himself, is completely limp and they are still pummeling him. at this point it doesn't matter if it's osama himself and he was about to detonate ten pounds of semtex. beating an unconcious person is tantamount to manslaughter as it can easily go that way. the officer involved was derelict in his duty and should be sumarily dismissed. don't like your job? think it's dangerous? i have no sympathy. my job's a little dangerous and we both knew that when we signed up but i continue to do my duty and will not welch. what's more, most of us here would have come to the aid of those men, i believe, oath or no.

Yes, however state law prohibts carrying in any of the establishments in Pioneer square, so noone would have had the opportunity, even if they had the desire.

sure, fine, but i'm guessing no one driving by had a piece. or a pair for that matter. armed or no, i should hope that there would be at least one MAN in a hundred that would come to the aid of those soldiers.

i think that's about all i have to say about that. i'm just gonna sit here and mutter about societal decay. :fire:

c_yeager
August 30, 2005, 10:33 AM
sure, fine, but i'm guessing no one driving by had a piece.

Considering that everyone driving by had likely been in the afore mentioned clubs, its unlikely that they were armed. It is generally considered unwise to leave firearms in one's unatended automobile.

I wonder why you find it necessary to blame all of society for the actions of two hoodlums. You might as well blame their shoes.

Hawkmoon
August 30, 2005, 11:45 AM
Can't help but think that if I were a company commander at Fort Lewis, I might quietly talk to my 1st Sergeant about encouraging some of the troops to go into town for some R&R ... after watching the videos to identify the quarry. The problem would be finding a way to assure pulling them out of the can if they managed to get arrested.

It's a sad day when the soldiers of this country aren't allowed to take care of their own.

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