Gunman opens fire on Texas church; 4 dead


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rick_reno
August 29, 2005, 10:31 AM
Don't want to carry in church?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9115379/

HONEY GROVE, Texas - A man walked into a church and opened fire, killing two people and wounding another, before shooting two women dead outside and taking their car, officials said Monday.

The suspected gunman was then tracked to a nearby home in the rural Sash community, where he surrendered after a nine hour standoff with police, said Kristy Westcott, a dispatcher with the Fannin County Sheriff’s Department.

The shooting happened around 9 p.m. Sunday as evening services were under way at the Sash Assembly of God church, about 80 miles north of Dallas, officials said.

Witnesses told Dallas television station WFAA that someone knocked on the door to the church, then started firing when the door was opened. Investigators said the gunman then fatally shot two women in a car nearby before fleeing.

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Firethorn
August 29, 2005, 10:54 AM
This is why it should be legal to carry in church*.

Another incident that bears out John Lott's research that indicates that mass shootings in shall-issue states overwhelmingly occur in no-carry zones.

I feel sorry for the women and their families. I wonder what caused it. The distribution seems strange. You'd think that he'd of shot at least one man.

*Not to mention Schools, post offices, banks, government buildings except for courts and police stations(and even exemptions then).

thereisnospoon
August 29, 2005, 10:57 AM
Since when is a church building a no carry zone?

Hobie
August 29, 2005, 11:02 AM
It is in some states...

Lone_Gunman
August 29, 2005, 11:09 AM
Since when is a church building a no carry zone?

It is specifically forbidden in Georgia to carry a weapon into a church, even with a firearms license.

Even if it was not specifically forbidden, though, it would still be illegal because Georgia forbids carrying at a public gathering, even with a license.

Firethorn
August 29, 2005, 11:15 AM
From Packing.org:

North Dakota(my permit): person who possesses a firearm at a public gathering is guilty of a class B misdemeanor. For the purpose of this section, "public gathering" includes athletic or sporting events, schools or school functions, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, musical concerts, and individuals in publicly owned parks where hunting is not allowed by proclamation and publicly owned or operated buildings.

Texas: # *on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

Personally, I think that the decision should be up to the church, not being public property.

Looking at some of the other comments, it seems illegal in a number of places.

edit: Looks like it'd be a case for a lawyer in Texas if the church doesn't post the 30.06 sign

Rupestris
August 29, 2005, 11:17 AM
Its legal in Michigan as long as you have the permission of your individual parrish, church, synagague, mosk, temple, etc.

dev_null
August 29, 2005, 11:48 AM
We obviously need to ban churches.

dolanp
August 29, 2005, 12:58 PM
Texas churches have to post 30.06, and most don't. The law is funny because they added that exception later on.

MechAg94
August 29, 2005, 01:07 PM
It is illegal to carry concealed in Churchs and schools (parking lots not included). Again, it is one of those exceptions/compromises we had to do to satisfy all the scared ninnys. We have not been able to get that changed yet. I am sure it will happen eventually. This gives some emphasis to get it changed during the next regular legislative session in 2007.
--------------------
Donalp, I thought Churches were one of the forbidden locations? Did that change? I'll have to check my handbook I guess.

yayarx7
August 29, 2005, 01:11 PM
Texas Gunman Kills 4 in Church, Then Self
Aug 29 10:02 AM US/Eastern


SASH, Texas


A gunman killed four people at a rural church in a small north Texas town, then held off police in an nine-hour standoff before apparently killing himself, officials said Monday.

At least one other person was wounded.

The gunman reportedly knocked on the door of the Sash Assembly of God church Sunday night, then started firing when the door was opened. Three people were shot, including the pastor, according to WFAA-TV in Dallas. It was not immediately clear if the pastor was the wounded person or one of the two dead.

Two women in a car outside the church were then shot and killed, police said.

"These two ladies, from what it appeared, happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time," Fannin County Sheriff Kenneth Moore said.

The man fled and was later tracked to his home near the church in Sash, an unincorporated community about 80 miles north of Dallas near the Oklahoma border.

Sheriff's deputies and a SWAT team surrounded the house, and after the long standoff police initially said the man surrendered just before 6 a.m.

However, when officers entered the home they found the man dead, Moore said.

"We have good reason to believe, based at what we see at the scene, that it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound," Moore said.

Moore said the motive for the shootings had not been determined.

The identities of the gunman and the people killed at the church were not released.

msn left a bit off when they forgot to mention the suicide.
LINK TO STORY (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/29/D8C9HB4O0.html)

chris in va
August 29, 2005, 01:13 PM
From Packing.org for Virginia...

Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held unless you have "good and sufficient reason." There is no known definition of what a good and sufficient reason would be. Violation is a minor crime, punishible by a fine of up to $100.

dolanp
August 29, 2005, 01:17 PM
Donalp, I thought Churches were one of the forbidden locations? Did that change? I'll have to check my handbook I guess.

It's a common misconception because the law is a little confusing. You have PC 46.035(b)(6) which says churches are off limits, but then later subsection (i) was added to the statute which reads:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

xdoctor
August 29, 2005, 01:21 PM
We obviously need to ban churches.

I agree, the greatest atrocities in history were done in the name of God.

El Tejon
August 29, 2005, 01:21 PM
Is this near Gainesville (Cook County)? I have family there. :eek:

Why is the story always the same? No one fights back. :banghead:

Tall Man
August 29, 2005, 01:28 PM
Say a prayer for the families of the deceased.

Curse the laws that render concealed carry in Church illegal.

Realize that arguments against carrying in Church have now been irreversibly discredited.

TM


Remember this event before you click on "Submit New Thread" to initiate yet another unneeded discussion on whether or not it is wise to carry in a house of worship.

Pilgrim
August 29, 2005, 01:36 PM
Interestingly enough, I returned to church after a very long absence yesterday. I carried concealed under my sport coat. I was overdressed compared to most members attending. I wonder if that is a sign someone is carrying in church?

Pilgrim

LiquidTension
August 29, 2005, 01:44 PM
While I'm all for carry in churches (and everywhere else), there's nothing to say that someone with a CWP would have actually been in the church and carrying at the time of the shootings. While such a law might make these occurrences less likely, and would certainly give the people involved more options for defense, there's no way to stop a guy from shooting up a church if he wants to - especially one that didn't care if he died or not.

That said, if some suicidal punk wants to barge into my place of worship, I'll certainly help him carry out his death wish. Oh wait, no carry in churches in SC :rolleyes:

Tall Man
August 29, 2005, 01:45 PM
I was overdressed compared to most members attending. I wonder if that is a sign someone is carrying in church?
No, it's just a sign of the times. We have the same problem at my Church.

How many folks wear, own, or even speak of their "Sunday best" anymore?

TM

TheEgg
August 29, 2005, 03:55 PM
Is this near Gainesville (Cook County)?

EL T, nope it is up by Paris, pretty close to the OK border, but more over toward the northeastern corner of the state -- maybe 70 miles or so further east than Gainesville.

People don't fight back because they never expect this kind of stuff -- they are literally stunned into inaction by surprise. (at least that is my read on it.)

ALERT!!!! The story has now changed -- for a long time the police said the guy surrendered and they had him in custody. Now they say he committed suicide and he is dead?

I wonder if this is a major police screwup or is it just the press doing their usual reliable job? :scrutiny:

Waitone
August 29, 2005, 03:57 PM
Any word on the perp's identity?

Taurus 66
August 29, 2005, 04:47 PM
Why would I need to carry in a church? God will protect me.

Yeah right.

Malamute
August 29, 2005, 04:57 PM
The Preacher at the local, small rural church I go to here, mentioned in a sermon about people having guns in church, and that he was sure that we were well protected, as he knew several folks that he believed were armed at that moment. It got a good chuckle, (a knowing type chuckle). I know for sure he was right. I know of at least 3 people that carry regularly in church at that one small church. Know of others that carry at the church in town too.

Folks here seem to think it's OK, and no big deal.

TallPine
August 29, 2005, 05:21 PM
I hate to say this, but based on the abusive churches that I have known, I can't help but wonder what might have prompted this action .... :confused:

F4GIB
August 29, 2005, 05:45 PM
There was another Texas church shooting (near Ft. Worth) about 4 years ago. Anyone remember the church's name?

Was either church posted (or subject to a statutory ban)?

Standing Wolf
August 29, 2005, 09:15 PM
Another stupid criminal! He was supposed to shoot himself first.

zookrider
August 29, 2005, 10:41 PM
I agree, the greatest atrocities in history were done in the name of God.

Let's see:

Stalin - atheist
Mao - atheist
Pol Pot - atheist
Hitler - not a Christian; see the following Adolf Hitler - Christian, Atheist, or Neither? (http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html)

These 4 are responsible for more murders than Islam and Christianity combined. Not exactly sure which atrocities you're refering to.

aerod1
August 29, 2005, 10:57 PM
F4GIB,

The name of the church in Ft. Worth is Westwood Baptist. I think there was maybe seven people shot.
In Texas, it IS legal to carry while in church if you have a CHL!!
Do I carry? Yes, every Sunday and Wednesday.

Jim

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