[warbirdlover]

Howdy all,

I've just got a good start shooting a Colt Navy .44 and had some great help getting started at the range so not totally ignorant. I just had some questions on stuff I was told which are...

Is Pyrodex abbrasive to your barrel? I use black powder but I have a hard time believing this one.

I had bought my gun (brass frame) before I read that you're not supposed to buy one with a brass frame. It came with a note saying to just stay below 25 grains of black powder. I'm a metallurgist and some grades of brass are nearly as strong as the cheap low alloy steel they no doubt use to make these replicas. Has anyone really experienced problems with one of these guns. I'm not really concerned. The gun was reasonable so if it's trashed I'll just buy another one with a steel frame.

Thanks for any help and I'll be thinking up more of the dozens of questions I keep coming up with.

[Scoupe]

I've not heard that Pyrodex is abrasive to the barrel. Hmm.

I agree, just shoot the brass frame til she loosens up too much to be safe. Keep her loaded a little light. Chances are, you'll accumlate a couple more BP revolvers pretty soon anyway, and that old brassy will last a long while. ;)

[CARRY'IN]

I hope they are not using cheap low alloy steel to make any type of firearm. I have read some posts saying the brass frames are hit and miss; some fall apart quick and some hold together. Why they would do this- you are the metallurgist, you tell me.

[Tylden]

I've heard that many of the cheap reproductions do use a much lower grade of steel in their guns...brass too. I'm no metallurgist by any means though. Many years ago, I had a repro gun from Cabella's...I think I only paid about a hundred bucks for it new....and it didn't hold up well at all and wasn't very accurate, but it was sure fun while it lasted.

[Derby FALs]

Pyrodex is not as corrosive as BP but it will attract moisture faster and turn your firearm into rust if not cleaned right away. Hot, soapy water or Ballistol to clean it. Clearshot and 777 wash off with plain water. Ballistol is very good for maintaining BP guns. Mixed with water it makes a superb neutralizer and cleaner.

[Old Fuff]

Most of the problems with brass frames occur with Colt pattern guns. The cylinder basepin becomes loose where it is screwed into the frame. Usually the cylinder pin is locked into alignment with a smaller pin that is driven into a blind hole made on the circumference of the larger base pin. I once had a brass framed reproduction of Colt's 1851 Navy that was a tack-driver, but it didn't last long. Those that seriously want to shoot these guns would be well advised to buy one with a steel frame, or as a second choice - a Remington style revolver with a brass one.

[warbirdlover]

As to why do they make them out of brass that is the number one question!! They could make them steel and plate them to look like brass with no loss in strength. And they use low alloy steel because on black powder pressures there is no need for more expensive high alloy steel. I don't have my tensile strength info in front of me but the plain carbon (medium carbon) steels they probably use are pretty tough. There are some brasses that get pretty close to steel in strength but it appears from all the comments they aren't using those. Case hardened frames with black powder would be all but indestructable!! Stainless steel is also pretty tough but no one wants a traditional reproduction in stainless steel I've heard, even though they make 'em. Some revolvers (Confederate) in the civil war had iron frames! Now there's a failure waiting to happen! Iron is strong but "brittle" and if a hot load is put in it won't just "stretch" like brass, it will come apart.

[CARRY'IN]

And they use low alloy steel because on black powder pressures there is no need for more expensive high alloy steel.

What is the deal on this steel strength thing? I thought the steel used for firearms was all pretty much the same stuff. If they are using cheap steel on these repro's then we are getting way ripped off because they cost almost as much and in some cases more than a smokeless gun! That sucks.

[Tylden]

Thats one reason I like the Rugers. High quality steel and built like a tank. I'll take mine in stainless please. From what I've heard, the Ubertis are fairly decent, but the Pietta's...well, I won't be getting another one of those.

[Hawken50]

As to why do they make them out of brass that is the number one question!!
for the same reason the confederates made them out of brass in during the civil war. brass is cheaper than steel.

[Chawbaccer]

brass is cheaper than steel I don't think brass was cheaper than steel, just easier to work with.

I had a brass framed 44 colt. The cylinder embossed the rear of the frame and the cylinder pin hole cracked thru.

[Old Fuff]

The brass frames were first introduced in reproductions of Confederate revolvers that were originally brass framed. They continue to make brass-framed revolvers for buyers that primarily want them for display, not shooting. Yes, the brass guns are less expensive to make. In addition to the frames they may contain lower cost components and less hand fitting.

The steel that is used is well up to black-powder pressures (the guns are proof fired after all) but also picked for ease of machining. Using high-cabon/heat treated steel in say cylinders would add to the cost for no useful purpose. In short the materials are picked to fit the application

Cap & Ball revolvers are similar to modern ones in that they come in different levels of quality. The more expensive ones are intended for shooting, and made with that purpose in mind. The ones on the low end are for display and collectors' that don't shoot them very much, if at all. If anyone looks over the various offerings they will (or should) notice that similar looking guns can be bought for a sometimes wide range of prices. Usually you get what you pay for regardless of cost.

Without question, and for many reasons, the Ruger Old Army is the best "shooting gun" on the market. Anyone that isn't especially interested in shooting the old 19th century patterns should pick the Ruger.

[Hobie]

Is Pyrodex abbrasive to your barrel? I use black powder but I have a hard time believing this one. No. I can't believe the foolishness some folks propagate to justify their life choices.

I had bought my gun (brass frame) before I read that you're not supposed to buy one with a brass frame. It came with a note saying to just stay below 25 grains of black powder. I'm a metallurgist and some grades of brass are nearly as strong as the cheap low alloy steel they no doubt use to make these replicas. Has anyone really experienced problems with one of these guns. I'm not really concerned. The gun was reasonable so if it's trashed I'll just buy another one with a steel frame. Brass guns will stretch over time, even with the recommended charge. The quality makers like Uberti no longer use inferior steels to make these guns. Certainly, these guns are made of better materials than the originals. Even the brass framed guns compared to original brass frame guns. Fit and finish is the big thing and fit is a big part of durability with these guns.

I recommend this book, "Percussion Pistols And Revolvers : History, Performance and Practical Use (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0595672752/qid=1125408775/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-1869199-3980715?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Mike Cumpston and Johnny Bates. Worth every penny.

[scotjute]

Brass is a more expensive metal than steel. The extra cost of the steel-framed guns will come from the fact that the steel is more expensive to work (forge, machine, heat-treat, etc).

[warbirdlover]

Brass is about 3 times the cost of steel but as was stated above is much easier to work with. The amount used in the frame of a gun probably makes this price difference very small. In the Civil war steel was getting hard to get for the Confederacy so they used brass which was more available. At that time the difference in the cost might not have been any different. Brass (copper) is more expensive now because it's harder to get.

Plain (medium) carbon steels are not cheap or bad steels. Engineers select the steel with the tensile strength to get the job done. Ruger would obviously use an alloy steel since they are set up to machine it for their other products. Ruger would be much stronger then other replicas (I think) but the added strength is not necessary with the pressures developed in a black powder gun. And the steel used in the "low cost" replicas made in Italy is much better then the original guns used in the Civil War.

If a low carbon steel can be hardened and tempered to the same surface hardness as an alloy (depends on the carbon) you'll have the same strength. The carbon determines how "hard" the steel can get. A plain carbon 1040 steel will get just as hard on the surface as a 4140 alloy steel of the same carbon level. (Both these steels have .40% Carbon). The alloys determine how "deep" the hardness goes when quenched. This is called the "hardenability" of steel. If you don't quench the steel then the alloy steel will be stronger.

Bottom line is if you shoot alot buy a Ruger. For what I will be able to shoot the Italian jobs will work fine. For the money they are quite a bargain and if they wear out you can buy another. I doubt I'll be able to wear mine out in a lifetime. I'm still going to get a Remington New Army because they're so much easier to take down and change cylinders.

[warbirdlover]

Forgot. I'm only "assuming" they use plain carbon steel on the Italian guns. Only way to know for sure is "cut one up" and look at the "microstructure" under a microscope. Also a hardness check would help. Since I don't want to scrap my gun I can't tell for sure. If someone has a junker Italian gun they want to send me I'll do my "thing" and we'll all know, LOL.

[Smokin_Gun]

I had bought my gun (brass frame) before I read that you're not supposed to buy one with a brass frame. It came with a note saying to just stay below 25 grains of black powder.

Pyrodex is just as dirty as using BP, as long as yo uclean up BP within 24 hrs. it will not corrode. BP is has much more poop than Pyrodex, and would only use it if I ran out of charcoal and sulfer myself. To a new person I advise you to stay away from 777 FFg and don't use FFFg it weighs less and is 15%more powerful than BP. It will allow you to way overcharge a revolver and damage you or it... See the following chart. Use the BP column on the far left... for BP charge equate it to the 777 ffg less 15% column and thats what you would load. http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm Hope this helps I only use Black Powder and for good reasons... It's what these guns were made to shoot, historically tha way it was, have never damaged a gun or myself in over 20 years. I still shoot a Brass Framed gun from the 1970's. The reason Brass guns are replicated was do to the CSA's lack of steel and funds they made frames out of brass collected from Churches and townspoeple. They also made the Brass cannons. Hope this helps...

[warbirdlover]

Much appreciated smokin gun. Thanks!

[mec]

bates started out shooting a brass frame 36 navy replica in the early 60s. He would take it out near midland texas and shoot jackrabbits-getting about one for every four he shot at. They would drop real quick when hit with a .36 ball. He shot that replica enough to stretch the frame and managed to fix it twice by screwing the arbor in one turn. After that, it was pretty well worn out.

He still has two .44 caliber navy types with brass frames. Dont' know how much they've been shot but one is still tight and the other is way stretched out. I believe the old Uberti (from when they made brass frames) is the one that is stretched and the Armi San Marco is tight. This is probably because it hasn't been shot very much. The chamber mouths are three different sizes- a stunt that seems would cost more than getting them all the same size.

One poster said that he had destroyed a brass remington copy by putting too much pressure on the loading lever. There is very little metal at the bottom-front of the frame and the brass bent fairly easily. A few years back, a company grew up around a service of properly hardening replica revolvers to make them last longer. I don't know if they were legit or not. Any softness in the current Ubertis is not apparent. The most obvious metal flaw of the replicas was inproperly heat treated or incorrect metal in the action parts and springs. Again, the New Uberti's are showing very useful service life in that respect. during our seige of testing caplock revolvers, the only broken part was a relatively new hand spring in a Uberti 61 navy. I easily fitted the hand/spring assembly and was back in business. In the past, I had frequent breakage of the trigger/bolt spring on several makes of replica- Uberti included. They seem to be doing a much better job on the parts now.
Up until the last few years, the only place I knew to try for spare or replacement parts was Dixie Gun Works and they were almost always out of stock on the important parts. This was such a problem, that the local gunfighter /living history group started making their trigger/bolt springs out of round piano wire. Now Heinie and Wolf are making these commercially.