[mr_dove]

My wife just got her new gun. She's taken it to the range once already and really loves it. Its a bit large for a CCW but smaller than what she had before.

http://www.paraord.com/product/product.html?id=35
http://www.paraord.com/images/pixel.gif

I'm doing a additional research on viable concealment options for her. There are a number of options that are "out" for her.

-no purses. She HATES purses, although a less feminine carry case would not be frowned upon.
-no holsters requiring belts
-prefer no fanny packs but it is an option

I may not be aware of all the options available but it seems that the only remaining options are the "belly band" type holsters or some kind of "off-body" carry. I'm not sure if the belly band devices will carry a handgun of this size though.

So, what options are available to her? Which of the belly band, smartcarry, etc systems are the best?

[Cueball]

With the restrictions you have placed on your question, you have eliminated practically all options. I believe you are going to have to rethink your position or go for a ankle holster and smaller gun.
:confused:

[1911 guy]

What is her normal mode of dress? Jeans and T-shirt? Dress and heels? It's hard to give any advice without knowing what type of wardrobe you're dealing with. An option that comes to mind is this stuff called "Thunderwear", but I can't give an up or down opinion on it because I've never used it. Personally, I'd say that if her usual dress would allow a belt (no skirts or dresses) I'd have to encourage her to strongly consider wearing one because that would open up a lot of good options for her.

Does she carry a briefcase? Would her job dictate that she leave the case for any period of time? I personally don't like off body carry because of serious control and "brain fart" issues, but that's for her to decide. If she's adamant about no belts, then her only on the body option would be a belly band (not good with a grip safety) or a shoulder rig, but worn with out a belt to stabilize it it will get sloppy in a hurry and she'll wind up not carrying because it's uncomfortable.

[pax]

Shoulder holster is still an option, I guess, and ankle holster too.

Frankly, you've eliminated the best option already -- carry on the belt. What led her to rule that one out?

pax

[mr_dove]

My wife has a variety of clothing that she wears. Her wardrobe consists mainly of:

skirts with elastic waistbands
slacks with no belt
jeans (infrequently)
dresses

My wife is not opposed to off-body carry. We're aware of the disadvantages and we've discussed that she'd have to carry it with her 100% of the time. It seems to be just about the only remaining option that will suit all of her outfits.

I'm not clear on why the grip safety is bad with a belly band style? We're checking out the Smartcarry web site but it is really a mess to deal with.

[VorpalSpork]

I would look into smartcarry (http://www.smartcarry.com/scexpcis.htm), although that gun may be a little large to work well in that setup.

[RyanM]

Maybe a Kangaroo Carry would work? http://www.tidepoolwebdesigns.com/kangaroo/

[CAnnoneer]

How about a thigh holster on the inner side? Ideal for carry under skirt, Ms Congeniality style. However, the .45 might be too big for that. How tall is she? What figure type?

[pauli]

How tall is she? What figure type?
you're trying to get him in trouble, aren't you?

[Vic303]

Smartcarry is the way to go for your wife. That PARA CCW is essentially the same size as a CCO (Colt or DW). Officer grip length & Cmdr length slide. Charlie, the maker of Smartcarry uses his SC holster for a fullsize 1911 (long grip & 5" slide). Just remind your wife that the SC is a LOTmore comfortable to wear with an undershirt UNDER the waist strap.

[Sam]

It really depends on your wife and how she is put together.
Some can carry in a thigh setup but that can be uncomfortable for most.
Ankle holsters only work with long loose pants.

I have a lady friend that carries in a harness that holds the weapon below and between her breasts (2 1/2" Python) she is big enough that her clothing hangs from her and conceals very effectively.

I have a hard time reccomending SmartCarry. It is waaay IWB and you can run into trouble accessing it. Ladies do not taper downward quite as much as guys and that can present difficulties. Charlie only gets away with it because he has a typical guy gut.

Sam

[pax]

I don't like SmartCarry for women simply because female clothing really isn't designed to accomodate looseness in that area. If there's an odd lump there on a guy, everyone looks away because they know what that is ... but if a woman is lumpy there, people start to wonder. :uhoh: :o

Depending on her figure, she might want to look at Kramer's undershirt holster. Problem with that is that for some reason it hasn't yet occurred to the Kramer folks to add darts for female figures, so getting a good fit might require some work with a needle & thread. It is also similar to most deep concealment options in that the draw can be slow or hard to access, but that really depends upon what clothing she wears over it.

Another good option that a lot of women go for is an attractive leather vest with a built in holster. Coronado makes a beautiful one, and if that suits her style at all it's a pretty good choice for occasional carry. Not so good for day in day out simply because it's ... well, boring ... to wear the same thing all the time even if it's beautiful leather.

It's quite possible to find slacks with belt loops wide enough. Ditto skirts. Dresses are really problematic, but the undershirt holster or a belly band are two possible answers.

pax

[kirkcdl]

To take it a bit further,another option is a Kahr PM40.That opens a whole new world of choices.If she's opposed to poly guns,try a K40 or an MK40.... :D

[Morgan]

No good answer from me, given the restrictions.

I do have an MK9 she can try out if a smaller, yet powerful, handgun becomes necessary.

[9teen11]

Belly band? There are those organizers that are made for carrying a gun. Why no holster that needs a belt?

[mr_dove]

There were some threads in the past about concealment for females. Just can't seem to find them.

The problem is that most concealment is designed for men. Many women have wardrobes that totally preclude them from wearing a "man" holster. For example, many women wear dresses. You obviously won't be using an OWB hoster with a flowery sun dress.

Changing guns is out of the question. My wife tried a great deal of different guns (Kahr included) but hated all of the micro-guns because they were too difficult for her to control.

[pax]

You obviously won't be using an OWB hoster with a flowery sun dress.
Heh. Don't be too sure of that.

One friend of mine is a homeschooling midwife who wears dresses only -- no slacks, no jeans. Just dresses.

Get this! When this gal decided to carry, she went to a saddle maker and asked him to make her a leather cumberbund with a holster built into it. It's a beautiful piece of leatherwork, and she routinely carries her baby Glock OWB in this thing, over her dresses and underneath various flowing cover garments.

There's always a way ... if she's willing to look for it.

pax

[Nightcrawler]

Recently, John Farnam commented on concealment issues for women. He raises some valid points, and it certainly more than competent as an instructor.

However, bear in mind that Mr. Farnam advocates the "invisible living" lifestyle. Where, basically, to avoid trouble, you never go to bars, clubs, or parties, etc.

And even I think that sounds boring. Not inadvisable, but boring. Anyway, this is what was said:

01Aug05

Speaking of clothing... Comments from a friend in SA:

"Drawstrings and toggles on overgarments are gadgets that sell cloth ing without contributing to the health of the wearer. Recently, when hunting in the mountainous portion of the Karoo, I sat on huge rock. When I subsequently tried to get up in order to get a shot at a springbuck I had just spotted, I discovered, to my unhappiness, that my jacket was stuck. A toggle had foun d its way into a crevice in the rock, and I could hardly move! Fortunately, I managed to dislodge the toggle without disturbing the buck. Happily, I mad e the shot and took the animal cleanly. I also found that yet another toggle was swinging against my holstered pistol, making an irritating and unnecessary noise. These things we can live without!

As is the case when we buy weapons for serious purposes, when we buy clothing, we should make sure that it serves the real purpose (and that is n ot "to be fashionable") and remove whatever is defeating the real purpose, while adding whatever may be necessary to serve that purpose. As you are aware, th is is a philosophical point is made only with extremely difficultly when training

some women (some men too!), as fashion is often foremost in their minds. Advising them on choosing between fashion and personal victory often falls o n deaf ears."

Comment: My friend is an experienced, professional gunman. His advice should not be taken lightly!

/John





01Aug05

Retort from a female colleague:

"Okay Farnam, now you've hit on a sore spot. While we gun-carrying girls are hulking around in bulky shirts and jackets that smother all our curves, our gun-carrying guys are checking out the less encumbered beauties dressing in ways that 'accentuate the positive. ' We are not naive about readiness, we're just constantly trying to contend with

basic, and conflicting, issues. I am frustrated by the lack of selection of

ladies' clothes, accessories, and carry methods that allow us to look stylish and smart, yet be prepared to defend ourselves. I really don't want to have to dress like a dyke just because I want to carry a gun!


It's even worse for small women, like me. Recently I had to buy a gun belt

that is several inches too long, and I now have to spend more money and tim e getting it shortened, because the best quality and most suitable was only available in men's sizes. Even the smallest was still way too long.=80


Comment: Absolutely right. Gun manufacturers have only recently actively courted the female market. Accessory manufacturers are still way behind. A s I watch young women's public dress today (they all look "young" to me), it strikes me that some compromise is going to be necessary with the current generation of "painted-on" styles. However, people who know how to design w omen's clothing need to get to work on this issue. We need our female colleagues t o be interested in guns and to seriously contemplate carrying on a regular basis . When the issue is portrayed as nearly impossible, they lose interest, and our side loses another active voter!

/John


02Aug05

Relief for Women, from Gingee Brewer of Concealed Carry Clothiers:

"CCC currently features a women's concealment vest. In addition, we do a significant amount of custom work for women, involving unique fabrics and finishing touches that make vests stylish, yet practical and comfortable. Our gunbelts are comfortable too. I wear mine regularly. It features a femini ne buckle that lowers its profile as a gunbelt.

As your colleague noted, there are lots of women who carry, and many more who should! CCC is prepared to help anyway we can."

Comment: Gingee is a good friend and dedicated to the advancement of the Art. You may get hold of her at:

Gingee Brewer CCC PO Bx 237 Saunderstown, RI 02874 888 959 4500 828 645 2130 (Fax) _gingee@concealedcarry.com_ (mailto:gingee@concealedcarry.com)

/John





02Aug05

I know little about dressing women, but here is some advice from a female colleague in FL. She carries every day:

"Coronado Leather's 'Hobo' model handbag is suitable for most circumstances. It has plenty of room, is smart looking, and provides quick access to the pistol. Galco makes something similar, but dressier. Expensive, like all of Galco's stuff, but top quality. I'd rather have a pistol =80 on' me, but sometimes a handbag provides the only viable carry option.

I live in FL, and here is my usual uniform: I wear a version of what guys d o with 'Hawaiian' shirts. I get stretch jeans or chinos and a suitable belt. The pistol goes on my waist, along with a single spare magazine. I like Cambio jeans. They come in a variety of acceptable colors and hold up well.

Then, I get a tank top or t-shirt in a bright color and wear a loose shirt/blouse over it. My blouses are long enough to cover the gun. Floral designs provide camouflage, and the material is light enough to wear indoors. Add some fetching jewelry, and one doesn't have to look dour or grim. Check out Chic o's (chicos.com). Sales people are adept at helping you put together complementary outfits. Jewelry needs to be creative, lively, and coordinat ed with the clothing. My ensembles are stylish and youthful without making me look as if I'm trying to play catch-up with Brittany Spears.

Carrying constantly is surely more challenging for women than for men, but it is a subject that has become suddenly relevant, and women everywhere need to start thinking about it!"

Comment: It strikes me that all of us (women and men) who carry regularly need to have a "duel personality." A =80=9Cpublic=E2=80 personality, which is businesslike and detached, a persona that is not unpleasant, but that does not encourage "congenial approach." Then, we need a =80=9Cp rivate" personality that we reveal in circumstances where we have control and are among people we know. In a private setting, women may be comfortable wearing clingy, alluring clothing , high heels, and dangling, expensive jewelry. Men may appear in stiff, formal wear. An outfit like that is difficult to fight or run in, but, in a controlled setting, it is probably fine. In public, however, where we have

little control of the setting, high heels need to be replaced with practica l shoes, and alluring, sexy, or stiff outfits need to give way to methodical attire.

/John


I hate to disagree with Mr. Farnam, but I for one am NOT going to advocate women abandon high heels, skirts, or sexy outfits... ;)

[pax]

With all due respect to Mr. Farnam, the CCC vest he recommends is beyond ugly. Of the group of women I know personally who carry regularly, not one would be caught dead in that thing.

Not only is it ugly, it also doesn't exactly conceal anything. If you spot someone wearing a loose, butt-ugly vest that reaches to their knees and has a dozen pockets, you know that person is carrying. Hardly discreet!

Farnam's last letter brings up a few interesting points. I would agree that someone who is dedicated to concealed carry -- male or female -- will likely have to make a few compromises somewhere along the way. The compromise might be in gun size (something smaller conceals easier than something larger), might be in clothing size (looser helps), might be in clothing style (painted on, bare your belly styles might not be the thing), might be any number of things. But if you're going to carry, compromises will have to be made somewhere along the line.

The thing is, too often the compromise is, "Well, then I just won't carry," or "Well, I will only carry only when I specifically feel endangered."

But as I said above, there are answers out there for women who are willing to look for them and keep looking until they find the ones that work for them.

pax

[Nightcrawler]

Not only is it ugly, it also doesn't exactly conceal anything. If you spot someone wearing a loose, butt-ugly vest that reaches to their knees and has a dozen pockets, you know that person is carrying. Hardly discreet!

Any time I see any one wearing a vest, especially one of those 5.11 vests, I simply assume they're carrying.

I mean no one besides fishermen and photographers wear vests like that, you know?

It's easy to spot the "beknighted". Polo shirts (tucked in, sometimes tucked into shorts), Oakleys, cell phone/gerber/knife hanging off the belt (and belted shorts), etc.

You see a lot of military guys and contractors dressed like this. They look like dorks and you can spot 'em a mile away.

The snake eaters can be harder to spot. Oakleys and large Chase-Durer watches can be the giveaway sometimes... :D

[Nightcrawler]

http://www.concealedcarry.com/images/vest_v50_gingee.gif

Pax, I see what you mean. Woof.

[Trebor]

I hate to say it, but if she's serious about carrying, she's gonna have to compromise somewhere. Like Pax said, the compromise might the gun size, or it might be the addition of a cover garmet, or wearing a fanny pack, or wearing a belt, but it's gotta happen somewhere. I really can't see any viable way it's gonna work with the restrictions you listed.

[tttuac]

Call me crazy, but that does't look bad to me. I would ditch the blouse...I live in FL. and get one in every color. That could look good on someone else...like me maybe. That straight style looks best on me. :D

[Seraph]

She's probably not going to stun her attacker with her good fashion sense. It's good that she's aware she should carry. Now, she just needs to (has to) embrace the fact that she will have to compromise on one or more of the stated restrictions. IMO, purse carry, pocket carry, ankle carry, fanny pack carry, etc., are not good options, except when compared to NO CARRY. It will be best if she can make modest adjustments to her wardrobe and use an IWB holster.

[CAS700850]

Several of the female detectives I know use either a Miami Classic or a Jackass shoulder rig for their Glocks. It allows clothing without belts, comfortable carry, and decent concealment with a light jacket. All hate ankle holsters, as their pants are never cut right to make the rigs useful.

[1911 guy]

The belly band is not a good idea for 1911 style pistols because the material sometimes engages the grip safety. Now you're down to hoping that movement doesn't disengage the thumb safety too. Their own literature says they advise against it.

I have to go along with everyone else here. If she's as serious about carrying as she seems there will have to be concessions.

[Candiru]

The Survival Sheath chest holster might offer some options. Visit http://www.survivalsheath.com/holsters/index.htm and click on the Chest Holsters link on the right. There's a fairly good selection of guns available, so the 1911 clone or commander model should fit her Para. Naturally, this method of carry requires slightly blousier tops.

[DT Guy]

Well, if the female will fit in a travel trunk you can sneak her almost anywhere....oh, my mistake! I misunderstood the thread title...




:D :D :D


Larry

[carebear]

DT guy,

That would be "across state lines for immoral purposes?"

[Shorts]

mr_dove, from all I can think of with the dress style and gun, is some type of shoulder holster. If she normally wears a cover garmet, that might work. Ladies do have extra room in the profile to cover any slight protrusions. You can also carry vertical or horizontal. Which helps if the ccw is a longer barrel gun. The downfall is that a cover garment cannot be removed. My husband carried shoulder rig for a little bit and that was the biggest hurdle.

I don't like and kind of bellyband/smartcarry methods for myself. I think on ladies its not that great. As one of the guys already mentioned, its more acceptable for guys to have a bulge down their pants than it is for ladies :uhoh:

I carry OWB on my belt, but that is because my wardrobe allows for it. In searching for carry methods, there is a lot of trial and error, mostly error for women. It's difficult unless you are willing to dress for the part. Ladies clothing just doesn't allow for carry unless you make some compromises...ie, wearing jackets all the time, wearing pants/belts, wearing bigger baggier clothing, switching ccws...it is difficult to find something that always works. You might have to use several different methods depending on the wardrobe that day. Anything that needs to be accessible at the waist or under a garmet cannot be used on the day your wife wears a one piece dress outfit.

Anyhow, I've yet to find anything that always works for me. There are some days I just don't carry, and that's annoying, but its the only option I have that day :banghead:

[GEM]

While John Farham is a great guy - his wife Vicki is quite the expert on female carry. She has a great book on training females to shoot. I heard her talk about female concealment and gun choices at the NTI and she has had some holsters made for her that deal with women's bodies.

She has an article on the www.teddytactical.com site and that probably links to the DTI site.

She is a great resource for women. Hell of a FOF sheriff also.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Doesn't sound like any viable options short of sticking it in your pocket, in which case, you'd need another gun. I'd rethink the holster option. I agree carrying in the purse isn't one of the better moves which is why I personally don't care to carry that way but a fanny pack or holster is a better choice than your front/coat pocket.