When the SHTF, a rifle or shotgun in your hand?

[CAS700850]

Okay, forgive me fellow THR members, I have sinned. For years, I have planned to acquire a long gun. Search, and you can probably find threads I started on the subject. But, there was always something that got in the way. Something that came up. A new handgun. New leather gear. Computer hardware. Car repairs. Etc. Etc.

After watching SHTF in NOLA, the time has come. My birthday is in a month. Four weeks to research, scrimp, and save. It will be under $500, for certain, so I won't be asking for advice on an M4gery, all dressed up and ready to go. Just a long gun for better firepower than my handguns, function more than beauty. Heck, I'd even consider a "lowly" SKS at this point.


If it happened where you are, in a suburban/urban environment, which do you want in your hand for a long gun? Shotgun or rifle. Please explain why you made the choice you did, so I can make my choice accordingly.

[Polishrifleman]

In the urban setting you are talking about I would go with the shotgun. You are not out to harvest food you are protecting you and yours. More rounds than bolt action guns, wider field of fire with shot for multiple intruders. You will typically be in close quarters. Luckily these groups of looters till now as reported haven't used any other tactics than we outnumber you and want what you have so the stories of six shootin pistolaros (sp) have been able to fend them off.

[dave3006]

Rifle.

A shotgun is good to 50 yards unless you have slugs. If you are going to use slugs, get a rifle instead.

The bad guys could easily threaten you beyond 50 yards.

[Luchtaine]

Rifle. I don't have a shot gun nor access to any of the shorter variants. Plus I have plenty of .308 :D

[thereisnospoon]

If I didn't already have a .308 Main Battle Rifle (MBR) and I was budgeting and I was in a hurry, I would vote for either a shotgun or the venerable SKS carbine.

With the shotgun there is no question the Rem 870 is the hands down favorite, with the Mossberg a close runner up.

Just about any SKS will do, but steer away from the big 30 and 40 round banana clips as they are reported to have many problems.

10 rounds of 7.62X39 plus strippers for relaoding is not a bad setup for SHTF CQB on a budget and you can reach farther than the shotgun if you need to.

That's my $0.02...Hope that helps

[dasmi]

For $500 you could get an SKS, and a used 12 gauge. Cover both bases.

[Kobun]

I'd pic a rifle in .223 or 7.62x39 as you can carry lots more ammo than with a shotgun.
With .223 you can hunt birds and small animals including deer for food.

[QuicksDraw]

When the SHTF for real I will have a shotgun slung on my back, rifle in my hand and hicap pistol on my hip.

[Ian]

In an urban area, a shotgun makes good sense to me. I'm not in a suburb, though, and I have a lot more practice and training with my rifles than my shotguns. I'd have my M1 in my hands, no doubt about it.

FWIW, if I were in your position, I wouold strive to get the best long gun I could for my budget rather than several cheapie pieces. Like, say, a CMP Garand rather than an SKS.

[Derek Zeanah]

Rifle.

Basically, with a rifle in a decent caliber: if you can see it, then you can hit it, and if you can hit it then you can take it out. Even if it's a vehicle.

Shotguns do quite a job on people that aren't armored, but they strike me as a bit more specialized, with less capacity. I was seriously considering getting a super-sexy shotgun off the board, but I couldn't figure out why I'd ever grab it over a rifle I already have.

Maybe I would if I knew I'd be with a team who would carry rifles, in which case I could use the shotgun in those areas where it works best. If it's just me or me and the wife though? Rifles and handguns.

I'd even take a bolt-action .30-06 over the top-of-the-line defensive shotgun in a SHTF scenario.

[Derek Zeanah]

Yeah - I should note that I live in a rural area, on 5.5 acres.

Ditto on the Garand -- cheap, and it's hard to find a rifle that's objectively "better," though an easy way to mount a low-power scope would help.

[bratch]

For $500 you can get a SKS and a NEW 870 Express. And have enough left over for 1000 7.62x39 and 300 or 400 12 ga Birdshot.

You could get an AK and a shotgun for the $500 as well if you shop around.

Right now I'm thinking capacity is king. Ranges will be short; you probably won't shoot until they approach your house/business. As we've seen in NO they are moving in packs so you might have to engage multiple targets. Granted most will turn tail at the sight of firearms but as they get more desperate who knows what will happen.

Get something with the highest capacity you can. I'd vote for the AK in 7.62Com right now with about 10 30 round mags a 1000 rounds.

Ak- $330
1000 rounds 7.62- $100
8 extra mags- $100

A little over your price limit but those are rough prices a little shopping can get it in your range.

[ACP230]

If you are only going to get one long gun get a 12 gauge pump.

My nine-shot Mossberg 590 with ghost ring peep and blade front shoots slugs well out to 100 yards. Buck and birdshot do well from it's cylinder-bore barrel too. Backed up with a good handgun, or two, it'd be formidable.

The Remington 870 is another good choice although it is harder to get the combination of larger capacity and rifle sights on an 870 at the same price as the Mossberg. On the other hand,there are a bunch of used 870s around.

[george_co]

In the scenario we are seeing in NO you are looking at survival at short ranges, you aren't preparing to take and hold ground. You have bad guys, snakes, dogs and other animals.

With a shotgun you can carry a mix of ammo that will take care of anything you might come up against. Sort range snakes, rats, cats, coons and most dogs some number 4 shot. Longer range25 to 35 yds, bigger dogs, other animals buckshot. Longer range out to 100 yds. slugs. You just can't beat the versitility of a shotgun.

Must people don't practice enough with rifles to be good enough to engage targets with a rifle in a rapidly developing situation a shotgun with shot will give you a larger margin of error. You aim 1/2 inch to the right of the target with a rifle you miss, with a shotgun at any range greater than a couple of feet and you will hit the target with some of the shot.

And any living person with an IQ greater than their age respect a shotgun.

[Zak Smith]

We've hashed this out before. For urban unrest, the answer is clear: an intermediate cartridge carbine, such as an AR15, AK47/74, etc.

1. A rifle or carbine has an effective range in the hundreds of yards. A shotgun with slugs is limited to maybe 100.

2. The rifle has less recoil and is more controllable for follow-up shots.

3. The rifle has a much higher capacity (vs. maybe 9 in the shotgun). Its reload time is fast, and it will need to be reloaded less often. Reloading a shotgun is slow and fumble-prone.

A lot more problems can be solved with an M4 vs. a shotgun.

[1911 guy]

A lever action 30-30 would do you fine. Relatively high capacity when compared to most bolt guns and much longer range than a shotgun. A good Marlin can be had for under $300.

[Lee F]

If the $500 does not include your first 1,000 rounds of ammo get the best example of a AK-47 you can find. It will still be running when all the others are dust. It is accurate enough to 200 yards, powerful enough, and several 30 round magazines will not add much cost. I have AR-15's, pump shotguns, and counter-sniper rifles and would choose the AK over all of them if it came down to one. If I was in New Orleans right now as a part of a security detail etc. the AK would be my only choice.

[Clean97GTI]

I'd vote SKS or preferably an AK pattern rifle.
Either is proven reliable, but the AK will hold more ammo in reliable magazines. You can also get lower capacity AK mags should you see a need.

Either way, you're golden.

A shotgun is nice, but I think the rifle is the more useful long gun in this case.

FWIW, I wouldn't feel under-gunned with scatter gun or rifle.

[dave3006]

Forget about the rifle in your hands AND the shotgun slung across your back at the same time. Your mobility will be horrible and you will be banging into things.

Having both a shotgun and a rifle for one person does not make sense. It is not like you will have a caddy that can hand you the appropriate one.

In a home defense scenario, pick the shotgun. For a SHTF scenario, your bad guy could be hitting you from distances your shotgun can't reach. Pick the rifle.

[LynnMassGuy]

If some weird reason I could only have one I'd take a pump shotgun and a wide range of slugs and shot. I'd like it to have a folding stock for handling in a vehicle.

[Brian Williams]

1ST, What handgun do you plan to use. For example I have a S&W 13 and a Marlin 1894C both in 357. This works for me as a common ammo is easy,

[ReadyontheRight]

You can carry a lot more rifle rounds than shotgun rounds.

[Dave McCracken]

Both. You carry one, your SO/squeeze/partner carries the other. A fire team has twice the personnel of a lone wolf solo op and maybe ten times the life expectancy.

Good inexpensive choices are a Big Four Pumpgun,the ubiquitious SKS and/or a HBAR. That's Hill Billy Assault Rifle, the venerable 30-30 Winchester 94.

[JamisJockey]

My recommendation?
Big 5 is selling 8 round 'defense' shotguns, mossbergs, 20"bbl, for $219 right now. Police trade ins are common under $200 depending on where you live.
Another $100 for 250 rounds of 00 buck.
$40 for two 25 round bandoliers
$10 for a buttcuff that carries 6 rounds
$15 or so for a sling, or about $50 for a tactical sling
Whats that, $400ish before taxes and any shipping?
(Get a shotgun.)
Every red blooded american should have a defense shotgun.

[CAS700850]

To answer some questions that came up:

1. No limitations on either/or situation, except budget.

2. I have 9mm and .38/.357 handguns (plus .22).

3. Wife will need hands for the two children, so she gets a handgun.

THanks for the help. Keep going, please.

[wingnutx]

I vote for an AK.

Cheap, reliable, and ammo is plentiful and cheap.

I love my AR but I will always have an AK to back it up. Being able to use more than one kind of ammo is a good thing when you are scrounging.

[CAnnoneer]

AK47 is the best compromise among ammo weight, range, capacity, sturdiness, rate of fire, price, and stopping power. But, I don't think I can have it in Kali, so SKS is the natural answer.

IMO, shotguns are greatly overestimated wrt their true worth in a tactical situation involving just one combatant against many hostiles. There is some value in the special services they can provide as part of a versatile team, but that is not the typical arrangement in SHTF.

[Bud Light]

With either get real solid training. Shotguns do require training to be operated well. You need knowledge of what they will and will not do. The simple act of owning one will do little to protect. If you cannot afford a class get the Gunsite shotgun video or Louis Awerbuck's video. Better yet take a class from either of the forementioned. Also Rob Haught is a shotgun master and his classes are affordable as are Awerbuck's. As for loads it depends on the gun but buckshot 00 or 000 typically to 15 yards then the pattern gets rather large in unmodified guns. You really apparently need 85% of pellets on target for effective use per Chuck Taylor. Beyond 15 yards it is a slug only deal. Albsolutely forget about birdshot unless you are hunting "chickens" as Louis Awerbuck says. Birdshot still penatrates dry wall but other than at few yards lacks the pentration to deal with humans. You need a gun that will hit. Sometimes a beadsighted shotgun is fine but if it is'nt hitting on with slugs you're stuck with it. Rather than with rifle or ghost rings where you can dial it in so to speak.

[dave3006]

Dave M. makes a good point. Lone fighters are easily pinned down and flanked. Then, they are killed. Invite all your friends. Have them bring guns.

[MudPuppy]

I don't have a 75 round drum for my shotgun. :p

Actually, I have the CETME, the wife mans the mossy, the daughter runs the ak and the oldest boy has the AR. The dog "pins 'em" while the "toddler yells, hit 'em again dad, hit 'em again!"

[Coltdriver]

A shotgun is a formidable weapon and good out to 75 yards all day.

With the right size buck shot you have right next to machine gun type power and shot density. You can adjust the shot pattern with a choke for a few dollars.

Get a police turn in 870. I picked one up for $180 and still paid too much for it. But it was carried a lot and shot very little and was basically new inside. 18 inch barrel and you can increase the shell capacity easily. Also pretty light and easy to carry.

[Jeff White]

Get a rifle. Shotguns are special purpose weapons with a relatively short range.

The AK is reliable but not very ergonomic. You can shoot distingished at Camp Perry and have the best mindset possible, but if you can't run the gun you stand a good possiblity of losing the fight. I'd recommend an SKS, a couple cases of ammo and a carbine course. Since your budget won't support the training, you might check with one of the PDs you work with to see if they have a patrol rifle instructor who might help or maybe even let you in their class.

Jeff

[Wastemore]

Call me crazy, but I picked up two 10/22's, changed the stocks to lightweight foldables and added BC carbon barrels for a total weight less than 3 lbs each. Really easy to carry, quite and I can hold 500 rounds in my front pocket. A well placed .22 will do an adequate job and it's certainly better than a knife or a rock. I purchased them for a SHTF sitiation, taught my wife and daughter how to shoot/load/clean, etc. I just can't imagine lugging around my 13+lbs varmint rigs when the pressure is on.
I'd probably take my 10/22's, a couple of my 1911's and my two coachguns.
Truth is, I'd load up my Suburban with the contents of both of my safes in a bug-out situation and my wife would be squeezing her make-up case between my stocks. :D

I'm just surprised nobody has mentioned 22lr..am I crazy?

[Tokugawa]

About the ergonomics of an AK- they can be vastly improved with modern stocks ala VEPR. And I have to think, when seeing tribesmen carring old AK's in third world countrys, they have gotta be reliable. What are those guns getting for maintainance, anyway?

[Jeff Timm]

I'd recommend a Yugoslavian SKS, about $200 if you shop around, and a 20 Gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun, lower recoil and lighter, more compact (slightly) ammo. I've never seen a deer who could tell the difference between a 1 1/8 Oz slug and 7/8 Oz slug at 1500 FPS.

#54282 20 gauge Field/Deer COMBO wood stock, blued finish, 26" VR w/Accu-Choke tube set and 24" rifled, ported barrel with rifle sights . ...MSRP $355 and usually available cheeper.

Geoff
Who used age as an excuse to go down to a 20 gauge.

[Dave Markowitz]

Get a rifle.

Single projectile means you don't need to worry where stray buckshot goes.
Ammo is lighter and cheaper.
Less recoil than a 12 gauge.


On a $500 budget, the best quality rifle suitable for (un)social situations is an unissued Yugoslavian SKS. They are built like a brick (bleep)house and will keep going under the worst conditions. You should be able to pick one up for less than $200. The 7.62x39mm ammo they eat is extremely cheap, easily available in bulk, and compact. It is effective for defense or hunting game up to the size of deer. Also, the Yugo SKSes have a bayonet, which can be an extra intimidating factor in certain situations.

Ammoman has 1970s vintage Yugo 7.62x39 on stripper clips @ $95/560 rounds. That gets you 56 clips, which are reusable. He also has non-corrosive Portuguese 7.62x39 in water-tight battlepacks @ $139/1000 rounds. These prices include S&H. (I have no connection to Ammoman other than as a satisfied customer, BTW.)

Keep your ammo in .50 caliber cans. They are rugged and water-tight. You can fit about 500 rounds of 7.62x39 into a .50 caliber ammo can, IIRC.

Along with the rifle, clips, and ammo, you'll want to pick up a cleaning kit if your gun doesn't come with the issue kit. I recommend the Otis Tactical (I hate that word) kit. It uses coated cables as pull-throughs and will allow you to clean pretty much anything. The whole kit packs in a small zip-up case a few inches wide and a couple thick. It can mount on web gear or be stowed in a pack. They run about $40.

If your SKS doesn't come with a sling get or make one. You may need both hands for something but oftentimes, setting the rifle down is a bad idea.

Finally, you'll need some way to carry ammo if TSHTF. The Chinese chest pouches are cheap and comfortable, and can carry up to 200 rounds in clips. Alternately, you can carry ammo in belt pouches or USGI 5.56mm bandoleers will take two 7.62x39mm clips per pocket.

One final accessory for the SKS that I'd recommend is a Mojo rear peep sight. The stock SKS sight is an open notch and frankly, sucks. The Mojo peep sight is an aperature sight that gives you a much better sight picture. Peeps are faster on-target than open sights, too.

[Lord Bodak]

Dave,

What does it take to install one of those Mojo sights on an SKS (or on an AK, my roommate would like a peep sight for his AK)?

As for the topic at hand... I'm still not sure. I have my Remington 870, I have my SKS, and I have my lever action .357. In different circumstances, I could see each of them being valuable. In a situation like NOLA, I'm not going to be out in the streets unless absolutely necessary. The 870 is plenty for anything inside the house, and the Marlin lever is plenty for anything near the house. If I had to venture out, the SKS might be the right choice. I'm not sure one gun can be the be-all and end-all, but if I could only have one it'd probably be the SKS-- it may be more than I need at short distances, but it'll work (obviously), and it adds the long-range punch the others don't have.

[cracked butt]

Got to Samcoglobal.com and order up a crate of yugos.

http://samcoglobal.com/images/66a1case.JPG

You'll have enough firepower to go around for you and all of your friends who are hunkering down. :D

[gutter scout]

Of the two rifles I own, SKS and M38...

...My M-N M38, easily. Reason? Everybody has one rifle they've learned to drive tacks with.

And if the Jackboots get me within 150 yds, I've got six rounds of .357 waiting on my belt. Of course it all depends on how much S is HTF.

[Ryder]

I wouldn't be carrying any long gun around in plain sight. You're making yourself a target for the authorities. Haven't you guys been paying attention? There are armed men roaming the streets with AK47s that need to be dealt with!

If I had to move around it'd be with my 44mag in a shoulder holster. Easiest way to carry that weight all day long and it's out of sight. Reaches out good enough for silhouette shooters and it's always treated me right.

[MTMilitiaman]

A shotgun has no advantages here. It is more specialized requiring unarmored targets at close to moderate distances. It is not as accurate with any load as even an inaccurate semi-automatic rifle is likely to be. Consider:

A rifle has less recoil for quicker follow-up shots and engaging multiple threats
A rifle has a larger magazine capacity. Even the SKS with the standard 10 round magazine will exceed most shotguns in capacity.
A rifle is more accurate for a greater distance.
A rifle can be loaded for rapid expansion or armor penetration making it much more formidible against barriers and soft body armor.
A rifle allows you to carry more ammo. Even a full size cartridge like the .308 doesn't way as much as a typical 9 or 12 pellet load of 00 buckshot.

My WASR-10 cost $320 shipped to my FFL dealer. It was serviceable out of the box and came with a 20 round and a 30 round magazine as well as a cleaning kit. But it had viscious trigger slap and the crude sights and spatula style pistol grip of most Kalashnikovs. I polished the internals with a Dremel in about half an hour and also buffered the edges of the mag well. Then I put a $40 Mojo ghost ring sight and a $25 TAPCO M249 style grip on it. For 45 minutes of work and under $400, it is a decent rifle. The ergonomics and sight picture are improved. I can hit gallon sized water jugs at 150 to 200 yards with Wolf ammo--which costs about $100 a case. It has acceptable accuracy and is more importantly dead nuts reliable and rugged. It has acceptable power for both 2-legged predators out to 300 yards or so and for close range medium game up to the size of deer or hogs. And again--it offers more capacity, range, accuracy, and if need be, penetration at a faster rate of fire than a shotgun while allowing you to carry more ammunition.

[benEzra]

+1 on the WASR or other double-stack AK lookalike. My wife has an SKS and I have a SAR-1 (Romanian AK lookalike), and the SAR is shorter, lighter, handier, holds more rounds, easier to keep clean, and the ergonomics aren't that bad vs. the SKS. Ergonomically, it's no AR, but it's not bad, and it's rock-solid reliable. It's also inexpensive to practice with (ammo is $1.75/box), easy to keep clean but tolerant of being dirty, and magazines are cheap.

One thing I'd have against using a shotgun in this type of situation is range. The SAR gives me the ability to engage out to 200 yards or so, and to worry someone at ranges beyond that. The likelihood of needing to do so is unlikely, but at least you have the option. Yes, a shotgun loaded with slugs can make 100+ yard shots (given the right sights), but once you go to slugs you are losing some of the close- to mid-range advantages that make the shotgun attractive in the first place, IMHO.

If you already have a shotgun and are good with it, certainly use what you're confident with. But I would personally choose the carbine.

[Dave Markowitz]

What does it take to install one of those Mojo sights on an SKS (or on an AK, my roommate would like a peep sight for his AK)?

* The ability to read and follow directions. :)
* A small, flat-bladed screwdriver to depress the spring underneath the rear sight leaf.
* Something with a pointy end to push the new sight into place (I used a nail set with tape on the point to prevent scratches).
* Three hands. Since I only have two, I clamped the rifle in a cheap ripoff of a Black & Decker Workmate.

It took about 10 - 15 minutes, tops. Best $40 I've ever spent on a gun accessory. Mine is on my Arsenal AK but the SKS rear sight is almost identical.

[buzz_knox]

I wouldn't be carrying any long gun around in plain sight. You're making yourself a target for the authorities. Haven't you guys been paying attention? There are armed men roaming the streets with AK47s that need to be dealt with!

That's why folding/collapsing stocks come in handy. I tend to prefer collapsing stocks since an underfolder/sidefolding AK is a big pistol until the stock comes out. I can run my M4gery with the stock completely closed.

Either weapon is easy enough to carry legally in a bag unloaded. Use your pistol to buy time to get to cover. The carbine can be deployed in a few seconds.

[Commissar Gribb]

That's why folding/collapsing stocks come in handy. I tend to prefer collapsing stocks since an underfolder/sidefolding AK is a big pistol until the stock comes out.

http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/aks-74u_icon.jpg

mwahaha

unfortunately though you'd have to get the super long barrel version unless you register with BATF.

In a SHTF scenario, they can always be modified to full auto.

[buzz_knox]

I love Krinkovs but as you say, I don't want to deal with ATFE. Plus, the ballistics aren't that great.

[72Rover]

One more vote for the shotgun...simply for its utility.

My personal choice is an 870 with the 19" deer barrel (front rifle sights), fitted with a Choat seven round magazine tube extender.

With a 12 gauge, the ammo selection is vast: a wealth of 'special purpose' rounds are available. Instead of simply bird- or buck-shot, or even slugs, there are some amazing rounds like the "block buster" (explosive slug loads) and "dragons-breath." The latter is a truly scary bit of kit...the ability to huff a ball of fire almost 100 meters would give most looters/rioters pause to consider an alternate destination. Non-lethal loads are available as well, plus if you buy a spare barrel, say a 28" with a poly-choke, you have a nice tool for securing food-on-the-wing after the insurrection is over.

If you can have *only one* choose the one with the greatest utility....

Cheers

[Puncha]

Went for a rifle orientation course today and the Ruger Mini-14 shoots accurately and reliably. Maybe you'd want to consider getting one second hand so as to fit your budget.

Cracked Butt:

That picture really got me drooling...... :) happiness really is enough affordable firepower for self, wife, parents and 2 other sibilings.

[Jeff Timm]

You might also consider a pistol caliber carbine, available in Lever, semi, or even pump.

Geoff
Who would not feel disarmed with a .357 Magnum revolver and a .357 Magnum lever action.
:D

[odysseus]

Given one choice - Rifle, no doubt.

[eagle45]

Shotgun for around the house, rifle for everything else. For $500 you can get both rifle and shotgun. The SKS is a good choice, ammo is readily available and so are parts and they are easy to work on. You can get one in excellent condition for less than $200. A used 12 gauge, such as an 870 or a Mossberg 500 and you'll still have money left for ammo. You can usually pick up a case of 1000 rounds for the sks for about $80 - $90.

[Dr.Rob]

While the shotgun is versatile, it's ammunition is heavy and bulky compared to good .223/7.62 detachable mag carbine.

I wouldn't recommend having either in your hand when the National Guard arrives.

[SquirrelNuts]

See my signature line.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I agree with the rifle only crowd. Can't beat either an SKS or AK-47 for rugged reliability in any condition. As has been said, shotguns are way too specialized, ammo is bulky, range is too limited, and a level II vest can stop buck shot cold. I have an AK and an M-4gery, and although the M4gery has never malfunctioned, the reputation for reliability in any condition goes to the AK or SKS.

[sigstroker]

Re-iterate the AK. I'd like to see someone carry 30 shotgun shells in one hand. And then load them in a hurry.

What I'd really recommend is mowing lawns, slinging burgers, or whatever to scrounge up an extra $200 and get an AR.

[No_Brakes23]

One huge factor that Dave Markowitz neglected to add, (In favor of the SKS,) is that the Yugo SKS is legal even here in Cali. With the bayonet.

I would much rather be able to use a high end AK with 30 round mags, or an AR, but the SKS is what Herr Lockyer and FeinStalin let us have.

For a sling, I intend to make myself one of these:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=344592

Notice how this is somewhat less noticeable? Obviously won't work quite as smooth with an SKS, but should draw a lot less NG attention.

http://matt1234.home.bresnan.net/1back.JPG

As for Rifle versus shotgun, if I have to bug out I doubt I will be doing it alone, so one of us gets the shotty and the other gets the SKS. One more reason to get my wife her own shotgun.

[p35]

M-1 carbine if you can find a good one- availability is up and down a lot. Shoots like a .22, hits like a .357 (at least with soft or hollow point ammo), ammo's easy to get, and it doesn't look like an EBR, thus drawing less attention. Effective to 150-200 yards, and folding stocks are available. I got mine with 5 or 6 GI 15 round mags for under $200 before Clinton; I suspect it's getting harder to find but I don't know for sure.

[beerslurpy]

I used to be a firm beleiver in the "assault shottie" idea, but having owned a saiga 12 for some time now, I firmly beleive that light recoil, intermediate cartdridge carbines are the way to go. Greater armor penetration, greater lethality, greater range and the ability to do this more times per weight of ammo are all factors.

I keep my shotgun and my pistols in the gun safe and an AK by my bed.

[Crosshair]

No offence, but in a SHTF senario, I doubt they are going to bug you for carrying a rifle as long as you are not thretening anyone. I would probably carry my rifle slung over my back or against my shoulder. One looks much less threatening that way.

[Johnny_Yuma]

Having done quite a bit of tactical training with a shotgun I can say that I would much rather have a carbine. The shotgun is heavy, slow to follow up with, imprecise, slow to reload, and the ammo is bulky and heavy. Ammo transport is a big issue. Dump pouches and bandoliers are your two main options. Shells tumble from bandoliers all the time during movement, especially if they get damp. Dump pouches are not much better - you can only keep so many rounds in a dump pouch.

My personal carbine is an M4-type AR-15. It's a great rifle and common enough that I can probably always find ammo and spare mags for it if every reduced to foraging in an EOTWAWKI (hereinafter "N.O" or "Katrina") type situation. The SKS and AKs are good choices also. The major downside of the AK is it will likely provoke a conditioned response from battle-experienced Guardsmen. At the very least, they will think "bad guy" when they encounter you. Just a thought.

Whatever you get, buy some quality spare mags and some pouches to carry them. www.actiongear.com has periodic good deals on commie mag pouches. A cleaning kit is a must for a bugout, as is a decent sling. No need to spend $50 on a sling - you can make a good 3-point sling from instructions you'll find all over the internet - start with ar15.com. Oh, get a manual and a basic parts kit. Learn how to strip and reassemble your rifle BEFORE you get out in the world with it.

[epijunkie67]

Crosshair
No offence, but in a SHTF senario, I doubt they are going to bug you for carrying a rifle as long as you are not thretening anyone. I would probably carry my rifle slung over my back or against my shoulder. One looks much less threatening that way.

I hate to disagree with you but I think that would depend on the situation. I NOLA right now I don't think being seen with ANY weapon at this time is a good idea. At least if by "this time" we mean when the military units position themselve to quell looting and street violence. I can easily see an "aprehend and/or disarm" policy going into place down there. Martial law has been declared so that whole "rights" thing doesn't really count right now.

And as for the origional question, I'd vote rifle. I have several rifles and shotguns, all in a variety of configurations. For in house protection I've got a shotgun because I know my range is going to be under 30 yards, without question.

But for general purpose SHTF when I don't know the exact cercumstances I may face I'm going to have to vote for the rifle for all the reasons already given. Range, loading speed, accuracy, ammo volume. And here's one nobodies talked about yet. What if your 75 yards away and your intended target has non-hostiles near them? You can't use buckshot without fear of hitting an inoccent. I know the answers going to be slugs but as has been mentioned before, now you're just using a large bore rifle that kicks a lot.

I love how everyone talks about the "versatility of ammo" for the shotty. So if you're in NO right now what are you going to do? Keep slugs in your front pocket, 00 buck in your back pocket, field loads in your socks, and specialty ammo taped to your hat? And would you realistically plan on wandering around with 4 boxes of shells? Thats a lot of weight and only 100 rounds. I could fit 90 rounds for the AR into 3 mags in a single ammo pouch and another 30 in the weapon.

Now if the situation was general purpose subsistance hunting with self defense as a secondary concern then I think a shotgun is an exellent choice. But for a primary defensive weapon I'd go with a good rifle.

[JohnKSa]

Smoothbores have advantages that go beyond merely comparing firearm capabilities.

I'd take a 12ga pump loaded with heavy buck and carry some slug loads in my pocket for stretching the range. And remember always be tidy and pick up your empties. ;)

[Crosshair]

epijunkie67

True, but I would have my gun to:

A: Get out of town and would probably be gone by now.
B: Sitting at home with "Looters will be shot." Spray painted on my house.

Again, roaming the streets, probably now a good idea at this point.

[Taurus 66]

http://www.baikalinc.ru/eng/prod/rifle/izh94/

The only drawback to most shotgun/rifle combos is the shotgun barrel's on top. If we reverse it, we now have the rifle and iron sights in line with long range aim. Furthermore, the shotgun barrel on top permits break action only, whereas, the same barrel on bottom allows more room for a feeder tube and pump action. I'm thinking the rifle would have to be a single shot bolt action.

[phantomak47]

My vote is for a high cap. ak47, but that is no surprise.

so much better than a sks!

[Zundfolge]

Combos anyone?

How about an AR-15 with a Master Key (http://www.impactguns.com/store/knights_masterkey.html)?

:evil:

[Taurus 66]

WOW! I never knew. The master key is the mini length barrel shotgun with trigger ahead of the AR magazine. That's nice to know. If this concept could be used on other combos (along with longer shottie barrel to make things legal), this would be good for the SHTF'r. Thanks Zundfolge. :)

[LAK]

Rifle.

A shotgun is good up close - but then so is a rifle.
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Island Beretta]

...surprise me how the shotgun capacity is an issue now but for a certain single stack weapon design I hear the relatively smaller capacity is not a disadvantage.. well :p

[R.H. Lee]

Either one, I'm not fussy. As long as the rifle is short and not too heavy. Something along the lines of an SKS or even a lever 30-30. In fact, I'd prefer the levergun as it can be kept topped off with ammo very easily (as can a pump shotgun). With an SKS or AK, you'd have to remove the mag to top it off unless you're packing extra mags around. I think they'd just get in the way. YMMV. :)

[Shadizar]

Personally I would go with a rifle (AR-15). My decision is based on:

1) Familiarity/Reliability
2) Weight
3) Weight of ammunition and how much I could carry.
4) Range. I could fire from a greater distance than a shotgun, and still be effective at closer ranges.
5) Rate of Fire.

-Shadizar

[chopinbloc]

i vote ak, better yet, as many have mentioned ak and mossberg.

[dpesec]

Call me stupid, but I'd take my AR. There are a few reasons.
1) People see it and are afraid of "the evil black gun".
2) You can reach out and touch somebody at a longer distance. I don't want people getting close. Shoot the leaders at a distance and the mob should break down
3) Already have one, and don't have a shotgun

Been thinking about getting a shotgun, but I'm undecided. I'm torn between that and getting an AK or an SKS for a "car gun"

[chopinbloc]

remember he said under $500. pretty much limits it to ak, sks, other combloc weapons, shotgun, maybe a used mini.

fact is, i'm sure there are folks making good use of beat up 10/22s in NO right now.

[CAS700850]

An option I hadn't considered, but may be available, is the pistol-caliber carbine. Local gunshop has a Marlin Camp GUn in .45 (uses 1911 mags). Price is reasonable, $250. I also handled a Beretta 4xStorm, which would cost more, but give me mag compatibility to my Beretta 92FS. Any thoughts on this point? Anyone have info on the Beretta, or the Marlin for that matter?

[Jeff White]

I don't really see a defensive use ofr pistol caliber carbines. They are fun to plink with but if you are goiing to carry a rifle sized weapon, I think you should get the benefit from the rifle cartridge.

A pistol caliber carbine is just a big pistol. Easier to shoot and probably more accurate, but it still fires a pistol sized round with all it's limitations for defensive use.

Jeff

[Zundfolge]

...surprise me how the shotgun capacity is an issue now but for a certain single stack weapon design I hear the relatively smaller capacity is not a disadvantage.. well
Well the single stack weapon is still magazine fed ... so reloads are a darn sight faster then reloading a pump shottie.

[Black Majik]

I'd rather have a rifle instead of a shotgun if I had to pick one.

But in any situation, I'll have both. Since we're talking SHTF, I ain't buggin' out unless I'd absolutely have to. In which that case I'd have my shotgun nearby. If I had to leave my house, then I'd switch to the rifle, but I'll still bring the shotgun along for the ride.

M1A and 870 Wingmaster in case anyone's curious.

[earthworm]

Ryder makes the key point to me:the concealability of the handgun makes it the weapon of choice as I'm gonna be bugging out & want to keep a low profile.
I'd pick the AK with LOTS of magazines if it's a 'stand 'n' fight' situation,but ya gotta say nothing makes a statement like a shotgun.

[junyo]

Humble opinion. With a rifle you have more rounds, with a shotgun you have more firepower. More projectiles on tap, and more projectiles per trigger squeeze than anything short of a fully automatic weapon. The shotgun is much more lethal (read "likely to solve the problem the first time") than any rifle round. If I'm in NOLA right now, by myself, I really don't care about the guy a football field away, and if he develops an interest in me I'm more than willing to run or take cover. I engage nothing where I don't have a n overwhelming advantage and no other alternative. At some point law and order will be restored and I'd rather not have explain why I was the "crazy gunnut sniper" who was picking off people from the next block over. If the BG is really interested and decides to close, every step inside 100 yards increases my advantage. To quote Alonzo Harris' shotgun quote, "...You know I'm surgical with this bitch, Jake." You can pattern slugs out of a rifled barrel into a 3-4 inch circle at 100 yards, that's good enough for a headshot, which is why I don't care that much about armor penetration. If the discussion takes place at closer ranges, while I'm sure he'd see your point after a couple three 5.56 rounds, the first load of buck center mass pretty much settles the argument. The amount of ammo one can carry is a definate consideration, but reloading isn't. With a shotgun you don't have to replace clips, just top off the tube on the move as you expend rounds. Therefore unless you have to simultaneously address 6-7 targets (and if you do, you might want to consider tweaking that part of the plan), until you run out of ammo there's no reason to ever have an empty gun. You can't effectively lay down volume fire with a shotgun, but since the last time I suggested that as a tactic I was widely shouted down, I'm assuming that's not a consideration.

Now all that becomes completely invalid if a) we're talking a multiperson survival cooperative, since then you can specalize weapons so i'd essentially have both, or b) permanent breakdown/no reasonable timeframe on the restoration of law and order, which would call for a more offensively oriented stance... and a real rifle round like the .308.