Shotgun for SHTF--extremely versatile tool.

[toolmaker]

I'm no military person or LE. Just a middle-aged fat man raising his family as best he can.I have read the postings and many contain, in my opinion, very sound reasoning on selection of SHTF weapons in urban and rural settings. Yes, ammo weight is an issue, and should one have to leave a base of support, sheer volume of rounds would probably help dictate a chosen travel weapon. Range of a weapon is certainly a consideration too. The comments made about range of shotgun slugs has been brought up many times, and I agree that past 50 to 100 yards, a slug may be limited in accurate defense against a group bent on harming me or mine. But I personally consider this-- even at 200 to 300 yards, a 1 ounce slug I would, I think, retain "killing power". Nobody, regardless of their preparedness, wants to be on the receiving end of mortar-like 1 ounce projectiles coming in at killing speeds from a rainbow trajectory hundreds of yards away. Heaven forbid that a confrontation progress closer, but should it do so, a switch to buckshot can be done without hesitation and in the utter confusion of an armed confrontation, my personal aiming would suffer. I would suspect though that I would be able to move around my base of support easily due to the lubricating load I expect would fill my pants in just such a situation. All the above is, of course, just my own opinion.....

[itgoesboom]

Nobody wants to be on the recieving end of a .22lr either, but that doesn't make it an ideal weapon.

Seriously, a shotgun is a very effective close range weapon, but it has serious limitations at longer range.

Slugs kick hard, and it is harder to shoot them as accurately and fast as you could a carbine or rifle round. Not to mention the lower capacity, and that the sights are usually not nearly as good as those on a rifle/carbine.

For home defense, my primary weapon is a 12ga, backed up with a pistol.

For SHTF I keep my SKS and CETME.

I.G.B.

[CAnnoneer]

Most of the versatility in a shotgun seems to be tied to the type of ammo you feed it. But, is it practical to carry sufficient supplies of each and every type of ammo one might need to access that versatility? Even so, switching from one type of ammo to another in a shotgun is not so simple as switching the mags of an AK.

Shotguns are way overestimated wrt the alternatives, IMO.

[beerslurpy]

Owning a saiga12 and an AK, I have to say that the EBR wins hands down.

EBR defeats armor.
EBR will be effective out to 3-400 yards, 6-800 if you use a FAL.
EBR has more ammo capacity both in the gun and on your person.
EBR has less recoil.
EBR has more knockdown power per magazine by a wide margin.
EBR is smaller and weighs less.
EBR, even the AK, has more accuracy.

The supposed versatility of the shotgun is vastly overrated.

[Zak Smith]

beerslurpy has it.


But I personally consider this-- even at 200 to 300 yards, a 1 ounce slug I would, I think, retain "killing power".
Doesn't matter if you can't hit your target at 300 yards.

Here's a little experiment. Go to a 3Gun match, find a rifle stage with some CQB targets and some 50, 100, and 200 yard targets. Shoot the stage with a decent EBR (e.g. an AR15). Then shoot it with the shotgun, using buckshot and slugs as appropriate.

It will take much longer to solve the problem with the shotgun, you will spend most of the time reloading. Hits at 100 beyond will be much more difficult with the shotgun. Even outside of reloading time, it will take longer to shoot the close targets because of the recoil.

If you think you cannot miss with a shotgun, try shooting any 3Gun shotgun stage without aiming. At every match I've been to, I've seen people miss stationary birds and steel plates at as close as 5 yards.

The high-capacity carbine is the ideal urban defense weapon.

-z

[Koobuh]

Overall, a shotgun is much more versatile and utilitarian than a low-caliber carbine- in a true survival situation.
Think about it- how many mobile fowl are you going to take with that rifle? In a really high-danger situation, do you want to snipe a deer from 300 yards and chase it a couple miles, leaving everything you were protecting behind? Is joe thug going to recognize the 'snick' of a closing rifle bolt as readily as the 'chink chunk' of a pump-action shotgun? Will he be any more dead whether you blast him once with a shotgun or empty a magazine of .223 into him?

That's the issue in my estimation. I'm not planning on fighting building-to-building, clearing rooms staffed by armored troopers, or even firing at targets beyond 70 meters for that matter. Terrain dictates much of your weapon choice, and where I sit, a shotgun loaded with slugs and iron sights is all the long-range destruction ability you would need to survive.

If you're talking 'end of the world omg the bluehelmets are coming behind a wall of zombies carrying pitbulls that shoot bees from their mouths when they bark' I could see myself needing a high capacity tactical carbine. For 99% of the 'aw nuts' situations around here, however, my 20 gauge Winchester 1300 will fit the bill nicely.
I'd imagine it would suit most people's scenarios for that matter, short of facing down armed swat teams, and then, they're done anyway. Class III armor trumps your tactical rifle, sir, and would you like a serving of full-auto FMJ paid for by your tax dollars to go?
That 1% scenario set requires a highly trained, aggressive, and heavily (as in high-caliber automatics, plus accurate anti-materiel rifles) armed team to survive. Hate to poo poo and all that... :p

[Zak Smith]

If you're talking 'end of the world omg the bluehelmets are coming behind a wall of zombies carrying pitbulls that shoot bees from their mouths when they bark' I could see myself needing a high capacity tactical carbine.
There's this little "SHTF" scenario playing out down South right now, and I don't think it's the blue helmets...

-z

[Koobuh]

There's this little "SHTF" scenario playing out down South right now, and I don't think it's the blue helmets...

And how would a tactical rifle serve one feasibly better than a shotgun, in today's Fabulous New Orleans? Urban ranges are typically short, quarters are tight, maintenance is difficult to conduct in water. A pump shotty doesn't require much (if any) maintenance in the field, no matter how much you fire it, which while a secondary consideration tactics-wise is very important to your overall survival chances.
Unless you're talking about sniping looters from the rooftops, a shotgun is as much gun as I could want, or would burden myself with- inglorious as it is.

Something else occurs to me: you won't be firing very many signal flares from that AR. Versatility extends beyond puncturing targets.

[beerslurpy]

So buy a little flare gun for shooting flares. A gun IS for puncturing humans. Trying to make it perform 30 other duties to the great detriment of the main one is foolish.

Having a gun that comfortably reaches 150 yards is better than one that has to stretch to reach 100.

[Ian]

Koobah, a shotgun will work if it has to, but a rifle/carbine will do better with less work on the shooter's part. A shotgun with buckshot has a seriously limited range, and that shot pattern can be a detriment if there are multiple people around but only one you need to shoot. A shotgun with only slugs is just a needlessly large-caliber inaccurate rifle that's remarkably slow to reload. If you plan to swap ammo types for different situations, you need to carry several types of ammo, memorize what is stored where (you don't want to have to read each shell casing to figure out what you're loading), and you have to take the time to select and load the proper ammo before firing.

A shotgun will work great for visual deterrant (as will an evil black carbine), but if you should actually have to start shooting, the carbine offers all soorts of advantages.

[fistful]

"Don’t you think it is curious that the same people who
insist that one spouse should be able dissolve a marriage
on his or her simple demand also insist that it should be
almost impossible for an employer to terminate the
labour contract of any one of his workers?"

-some English guy

Wow. Well put.

[Zak Smith]

And how would a tactical rifle serve one feasibly better than a shotgun, in today's Fabulous New Orleans
If you care to read what beerslurpy and I wrote, it's spelled out clearly:

EBR defeats armor.
EBR will be effective out to 3-400 yards, 6-800 if you use a FAL.
EBR has more ammo capacity both in the gun and on your person.
EBR has less recoil.
EBR has more knockdown power per magazine by a wide margin.
EBR is smaller and weighs less.
EBR, even the AK, has more accuracy.

1. A rifle or carbine has an effective range in the hundreds of yards. A shotgun with slugs is limited to maybe 100.

2. The rifle has less recoil and is more controllable for follow-up shots.

3. The rifle has a much higher capacity (vs. maybe 9 in the shotgun). Its reload time is fast, and it will need to be reloaded less often. Reloading a shotgun is slow and fumble-prone.

A lot more problems can be solved with an M4 vs. a shotgun.


We're also discussing it over in this thread, where I posted a similar response: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154221

Unless you're talking about sniping looters from the rooftops,
From any spot in an urban environment, it's easy to find a 100+ yd corridor, e.g. down the street.

Going back..

Think about it- how many mobile fowl are you going to take with that rifle? In a really high-danger situation, do you want to snipe a deer from 300 yards and chase it a couple miles, leaving everything you were protecting behind?
So in your rural scenario, it sounds like you want to take a deer from close range for food. A rifle can do this just as well as a shotgun with slugs-- actually, the rifle can do it better because more precision is possible at any distance, and you can take one at a couple hundred yards with the weapon if that's within your abilities. As for foul.. if we're starving, why are we wasting energy clomping around looking for birds?

[45R]

Even if you dont have a long gun, you can still make hits with your pistol at 100 yards. Not ideal but sometimes you have to use what you have.

[R.H. Lee]

EBR defeats armor.
EBR will be effective out to 3-400 yards, 6-800 if you use a FAL.
EBR has more ammo capacity both in the gun and on your person.
EBR has less recoil.
EBR has more knockdown power per magazine by a wide margin.
EBR is smaller and weighs less.
EBR, even the AK, has more accuracy.

1. A rifle or carbine has an effective range in the hundreds of yards. A shotgun with slugs is limited to maybe 100.

2. The rifle has less recoil and is more controllable for follow-up shots.

3. The rifle has a much higher capacity (vs. maybe 9 in the shotgun). Its reload time is fast, and it will need to be reloaded less often. Reloading a shotgun is slow and fumble-prone.

A lot more problems can be solved with an M4 vs. a shotgun. Sounds like you think you can successfully engage multiple armored targets out to 400 yards singlehandedly with your 'EBR'. You might even get away with it for a few minutes, but it sounds more like a Walter Mitty fantasy to me.

[Ian]

Just because the weapon can do it does't mean you'll need the capability. But why deliberately choose a weapon with limited capability? As 45R says, you could probably be just fine with nothing but a handgun - but you wouldn't choose that if you didn't have to.

[Zak Smith]

it sounds more like a Walter Mitty fantasy to me
Got nothing but ad hominem attacks?

Fact is that some bad guys have armor.
Fact is that threats can be further than 50 yards.
Fact is that reloading a shotgun sucks, and you basically carry loose ammo.
Fact is that you need to aim shooting any weapon.
Fact is that a EBR can engage multiple targets faster & easier than a shotgun.
Fact is that no ammo-type management has to be done for an EBR.

From the Interdictor's NO blog (ie, the guy reporting first-hand from the Southern Disaster)-

The National Guard choppers are BEING SHOT AT. The NOPD are BEING SHOT AT. You want to focus on the levee? So do they, but check this out: THEY CAN'T UNTIL THE MOB STOPS ATTACKING THE RESCUE OPERATION.

The National Guard, FEMA, the NOPD, and City authorities DO NOT have the city under control.

It is a zoo out there though, make no mistake. It's the wild kingdom. It's Lord of the Flies. That doesn't mean there's murder on every street corner. But what it does mean is that the rule of law has collapsed, that there is no order, and that property rights cannot and are not being enforced. Anyone who is on the streets is in immediate danger of being robbed and killed. It's that bad.

Securing a 27 floor high rise with no elevator support is not fun. I am totally worn out.

The police have been looting according to reports, and the honest ones are under siege at their precincts as automatic gunfire was unloaded at one near the Quarter.

[acdodd]

Look at what the troops in Iraq are carrying. Maybe they know what work best.
I'm sure there are a few shotguns but mostly I see assault rifles.
I would rather have an EBR than a 12 gage in most situations I have seen lately in NO.
Just my .02 worth.
AC

[72Rover]

Good comments, all, but consider the situation. Rarely, in a urban situation are you going to have a sight-line of 300 yards. Most targets are liable to be engaged at much closer range. While an EBR does have its place, unless the opposition is a *very* determined, armed band of miscreants with some semblance of tactics, command and control - and in that case you better have the ability to call in air cover - the adversaries are liable to be inner-city gits looking for easy pickings. Most any sustained resistance will be cause for the thugs to look elsewhere. I think what is happening in Iraq is entirely different....

As Mr. Natural sez: "The right tool for the right job."

[Zak Smith]

Rarely, in a urban situation are you going to have a sight-line of 300 yards.
Straight or diagonally down any road. But remember that a rifle will have an advantage over slugs from a shotgun at just about any distance. Making hits with slugs will be increasingly difficult starting about 100-150 yards.

Note that a 4-lane city road with 12" of shoulder/bushes/sidewalk to building wall on both sides will be almost 70' or 23 yards across, and a city block is normally between 260' (86 yards) and 530' (176 yards) long.

What is the line of sight in the following photos?
http://sigmund.biz/kat20050901%20part%202/Picture005.jpg
http://sigmund.biz/kat20050901%20part%202/Picture200.jpg
http://sigmund.biz/kat20050901%20part%202/Picture197.jpg
http://sigmund.biz/kat20050901%20part%202/Picture195.jpg (rhetorical: What kind of weapons are those agents carrying?)



-z

[crofrog]

Normally for an anti-personal role. I would have to say an AR15 any other time of the year...

Right now in New Orleans that being said being a civilian or an aid worker down there I would choose a shot gun.

Probally an 870 Marine or a 500 Mariner. The finishes will hold up well being wet and sloppy all day. (not saying an AR or AK couldn't do the same thing).

Now the big reasons I'd choose a shotgun.

1. It's not all anti-personnel down there right now, aligators, sharks, snakes, dogs are the order of the day.

2. A shot gun looks more PC. This is sorta a ????ty situation, but I forsee less problems with people down there if you have a shot gun slung over your pack versus an AR15 and esp a commie rifle like an SKS and AK

3. Ammo for all of these guns is probally readlily available, but I know in the walmarts up here, and the bass pro shops. There is a lot more boxs of shot gun shells to pillage than .223 or 7.62x39.

4. Less maintaince. The AR with a good finish isn't going to rust, but you are going to need to keep the action clean. Probally not a big deal. The AK will start rusting.

5. If you have to go into anti-personnel mode. It's better than a handgun. Sure if you are engagued much past 50-70 yards IMHO you are outgunned by a rifle. But if you are fighting in a urban enviroment. Take cover and retreat if possible. You should move through the city evaluating threats and all objects for cover. If you come under fire that is out of your range. Take over. You don't need to stand and fight. Find another way.

6. If one needs to make entry into a buliding or remove a lock. Buck shot or a slug goes a lot farther to removing material than a .223 or 7.62x39

7. If you need to disable a vehicle a slug once again does much better than the MBR rounds.

Gabe Suraez said "Being attacked when you are by yourself and not accompanied by 12 steroid-abusing freaks of nature armed with machineguns calls for different tactics."

Also, you need to evaluate all of the possible threats, before making a descision.

If I could carry anything well I'd have full turn out gear on. An AR15 in either rear sweep or offside drop carry. And a remington 870 marine or 500 Mariner in climbers carry with a quick release buckle on the sling, and a HK USP in 9mm in a drop leg. That being said if I go down there. That would get me more than weird looks.

Where as a remington 870 in rear sweep, and a handgun in a fanny pack or camel back would probally get me more double takes and glances, but I could get off with carring it.

YMMV and what not.

Chris

[R.H. Lee]

Sorry, Zak. I didn't mean you were Walter Mitty. :)

A 'SHTF' gun is a defensive weapon. Whey you're engaging targets out to 400 yds, you're no longer in a defensive mode, you've become an aggressor. If you were in a defensive mode, you'd be looking for cover or escape. We're talking about civilians caught up in some catastrophe, correct? Not military/LEO/swat people dispatched into an area to put down some kind of insurrection.

[JamisJockey]

RH Lee +1.
For most situations, and most people, a 12ga pumpgun with slugs backed up with 00 buck is perfect. Unless you're out hunting looters, then all bets are off
:evil:

[Ian]

1. It's not all anti-personnel down there right now, aligators, sharks, snakes, dogs are the order of the day.

So? I don't see a difference between using a carbine and a shotgun on these sorts of targets...

2. A shot gun looks more PC. This is sorta a ????ty situation, but I forsee less problems with people down there if you have a shot gun slung over your pack versus an AR15 and esp a commie rifle like an SKS and AK

There are plenty of PC-looking rifles, and plenty of evil black shotguns. And FWIW, I don't think your average Joe on the street can recognize an SKS, or consider it unusually evil-looking.

3. Ammo for all of these guns is probally readlily available, but I know in the walmarts up here, and the bass pro shops. There is a lot more boxs of shot gun shells to pillage than .223 or 7.62x39.

If we have the time to pick out a weapon for this situation, we have the time to stock plenty of ammo (a few hundred rounds shouold be overkill, unless WWIII breaks out). In addition, how much buckshot and slug ammo can you find at the loocal WalMart? I was just in one yesterday looking for deal on buck and slugs, and they had none at all, just birdshot. They did have .223 "Valupaks" thouogh, and an assortment of .308, .30-06, and 7.62x39.

4. Less maintaince. The AR with a good finish isn't going to rust, but you are going to need to keep the action clean. Probally not a big deal. The AK will start rusting.

Seems irrelevant to me. Any weapon will eventually rust on the outside, but that doesn't affect function. If your rifle can go through a 4- or 5-day training class without cleaning (mine has, and so have many, many others) it won't require any routine maintenance for a week of defensive SHTF use.

5. If you have to go into anti-personnel mode. It's better than a handgun. Sure if you are engagued much past 50-70 yards IMHO you are outgunned by a rifle. But if you are fighting in a urban enviroment. Take cover and retreat if possible. You should move through the city evaluating threats and all objects for cover. If you come under fire that is out of your range. Take over. You don't need to stand and fight. Find another way.

Yes, a shotgun is better than a handgun. So is a rifle. I don't see how any of this point makes a shotgun preferrable... :confused:

6. If one needs to make entry into a buliding or remove a lock. Buck shot or a slug goes a lot farther to removing material than a .223 or 7.62x39

I've never tried this, but I expect it's true. Score one for the shotgun.

7. If you need to disable a vehicle a slug once again does much better than the MBR rounds.

Haven't tried this either, but I'm dubious. A rifle/carbine's ability to have rapid follow-up shots would trump any advantage in slug stopping power against a vehicle. You would, by definition, be shooting at a moving target, and vehicles seem to be fairly resilient targets. You have to hit something vital in the engine, and can't see through the hoood and quarterpanels. I imagine a series of shots would be necessary.

[MTMilitiaman]

The shotgun is anything but versitile. It is at best specialized and at worst outdated and archaic. People make a big deal of the different ammo types that you can stuff in a smoothbore without stopping to consider that none of them give the shotgun the range, accuracy, speed, or penetration (if needed) of your typical rifle or carbine. Regardless of what you stuff into your shotgun, you are still stuck with a close range weapon effective on soft targets and that is about it. You can lob those 1 oz projectiles out to 200 or 300 yards, but hit probability is dismil, esp if your target has a rifle and is even half way competent in its use. A rifle is going to make those shots alot easier.

It may be hard to think of a situation where a civilian might need to shoot to 300 or 400 yards in a defensive situation, but just because such scenerios are rare doesn't mean I am going to intentionally limit my range and ability to deal with them. We are talking versitility here, remember? You can carry your shotgun and leave yourself with only the ability to make noise or retreat in such a given situation--neither of which may be options all the time--or you can carry just about any rifle and leave yourself the option of putting up an effective resistance/defense if need be. It's your choice but with lives on the line, I urge you to consider it carefully...

[Ian]

R.H. Lee - I'm envisioning a situation where I'm defending my dwelling, where retreat and escape aren't a viable goal. If you're in NO and have some stockpiled food and water, and perhaps electricity, retreating out inito the street is a really bad plan.

If a group attacks you, retreats under fire, and is obviously regrouping to repeat the attack, I would certainly consider shooting at them justified. If they do that regrouping at the end of the block behind an abandoned truck, a shotgun is of very little use. A rifle or carbine would still be effective.

[bad LT]

Don't argue with the trap shooter and the shotgun he uses on a weekly basis.

[MTMilitiaman]

If I am so compelled for whatever reason, have my WASR, and can get 150 to 200 yards away, I'll argue with him all I want and there is nothing he can do but drop his precious smoothbore and run screaming waving his hands above his head like the sky is falling....

[coylh]

I have both in the safe, but I find the rifle more useful.

The shotgun in theory is more versatile, but any particular shotgun is not. What I mean by this, is that while you can change ammo, chokes, barrels, sights/scopes, you're not likely to carry all that stuff with you and/or be able to deploy it.

[Derek Zeanah]

Come on guys.

Personally I prefer a rifle, but I'll say this: if the SHTF where you are, and you're equipped with a long arm you know how to use (and are willing to use), then you're better off than 99% of the people out there.

[dave3006]

To the original poster that described himself as a "middle aged fat man", the best thing you could do is GET IN SHAPE.

Fighting, disasters, lack of sleep, emotional trauma takes an incredible toll on your body. Your fighting skills will not be worth a dime after a few days if you have been treating your body like crap. There is a reason why the special forces emphasize physical fitness.

You should be lifting weights, running, and stretching as a bare minimum. It is not always about the gun.

[crofrog]

1. It's not all anti-personnel down there right now, aligators, sharks, snakes, dogs are the order of the day.


So? I don't see a difference between using a carbine and a shotgun on these sorts of targets...


Slugs preform better when having to travel through water. Also when they get there they phyiscally remove more meat, as does buck shot. Removing meat is what is going to kill the animal.

For snakes bird shot is a rather ideal load, reduced chance of fatal richoets. You also can miss by an inch or 2 instead of 5.56mm's


2. A shot gun looks more PC. This is sorta a ????ty situation, but I forsee less problems with people down there if you have a shot gun slung over your pack versus an AR15 and esp a commie rifle like an SKS and AK


There are plenty of PC-looking rifles, and plenty of evil black shotguns. And FWIW, I don't think your average Joe on the street can recognize an SKS, or consider it unusually evil-looking.


That is true. He probally couldn't pick an SKS out. But he sure as ???? can pick a shot gun out. He knows what they are. He knows to be afraid of them, and at the same time it's something grandpa had so he doesn't assosiate them as being evil.



3. Ammo for all of these guns is probally readlily available, but I know in the walmarts up here, and the bass pro shops. There is a lot more boxs of shot gun shells to pillage than .223 or 7.62x39.


If we have the time to pick out a weapon for this situation, we have the time to stock plenty of ammo (a few hundred rounds shouold be overkill, unless WWIII breaks out). In addition, how much buckshot and slug ammo can you find at the loocal WalMart? I was just in one yesterday looking for deal on buck and slugs, and they had none at all, just birdshot. They did have .223 "Valupaks" thouogh, and an assortment of .308, .30-06, and 7.62x39.


Well my personal exerpince was very much different. It probally depends on where you are.

About the stocking up. My post was written from the perspective of me going down there as a relief worker (something I'm working to get the time off to do)


4. Less maintaince. The AR with a good finish isn't going to rust, but you are going to need to keep the action clean. Probally not a big deal. The AK will start rusting.


Seems irrelevant to me. Any weapon will eventually rust on the outside, but that doesn't affect function. If your rifle can go through a 4- or 5-day training class without cleaning (mine has, and so have many, many others) it won't require any routine maintenance for a week of defensive SHTF use.


If your training class involved humping it through salt water, mud and building rubble. Where can I sign up? It sounds like my kinda training :)

I was also talking about the marine versions of the shotguns. They are stainless or electroless nickle plated. So they will not rust

Generally speaking this a gun thats going to be carried a lot and shot a little. So it has less to do with how well it can handle reltivly small amounts of powder fouling compared to large amounts of "muck" fouling. There is a lot of room in the shot gun for crap to go, and the power of my arm cycling it is more than the gas of a semi auto rifle. In addition to mud and the likes there will be a film of salt dried over everything the water touchs.

Also I'm not just talking about rust on the outside. I'm talking about rust of the more important parts. Barrel, chamber, bolt, mag springs, magizines.

Do you have much experince in salt water enviroments. Because what salt water can do to any metal is truley amazing.


5. If you have to go into anti-personnel mode. It's better than a handgun. Sure if you are engagued much past 50-70 yards IMHO you are outgunned by a rifle. But if you are fighting in a urban enviroment. Take cover and retreat if possible. You should move through the city evaluating threats and all objects for cover. If you come under fire that is out of your range. Take over. You don't need to stand and fight. Find another way.


Yes, a shotgun is better than a handgun. So is a rifle. I don't see how any of this point makes a shotgun preferrable...


I was just adovacting carrying something more than a handgun. This is an area when rifles excel. If I'm engauging a lot of people give me a magizine fed rifle with some nice optics up top, and 12 mags of ammo in my chest rig.

I was also pointing out. You aren't the police and military your mission is self preservation, and in a city while there are many aves where a 1000yd shot could happen. There is also a lot of cover you can effectivly utlize. Negating much of a rifles advantage in the hands of the enemy.


6. If one needs to make entry into a buliding or remove a lock. Buck shot or a slug goes a lot farther to removing material than a .223 or 7.62x39


I've never tried this, but I expect it's true. Score one for the shotgun.


Woot! ;)


7. If you need to disable a vehicle a slug once again does much better than the MBR rounds.


Haven't tried this either, but I'm dubious. A rifle/carbine's ability to have rapid follow-up shots would trump any advantage in slug stopping power against a vehicle. You would, by definition, be shooting at a moving target, and vehicles seem to be fairly resilient targets. You have to hit something vital in the engine, and can't see through the hoood and quarterpanels. I imagine a series of shots would be necessary.


Shot gun slugs often pentrate the steel plates that are used for rifle training. I've also personally shot a slug through an old cast iron 350. It went through quite a few cylinders before stoping. I can't say I've done the same with a .223 or 7.62x39.

That being said useing deductive reasoning. If a slug goes through a plate that stops the rifle rounds. Then a slug will do better doing through other metal targets.

Also while not truley disabling a vehicle it would be easier to hit the driver / wheels with the pattern a shot gun provides you.


For true combat zone type stuff, or home defense really any purley anti personal roles. I'll take a rifle any day of the week.

If I was going down there right now, to help out. I'd personally take a marine shotgun and pistol that is going to hold up well in saltwater: USP, SIG Navy in my personal opinion.

Give the current mission of an relief worker (my perspective) or a cillivan trying to evacuate. I would not feel under gunned with a shot gun, and in some situations I'd prefer it.

Now if i was a police officer or NG trying to secure the city. Rifle all the way.

Cheers,
Chris

Edit to add one thing

[Dr.Rob]

12 ga. Flares could come in mighty handy.

If nothing else you can use 'em to light the oil in the moat on fire. :scrutiny:

[Correia]

You won't find a bigger shotgun nut than me. Shotgun is the only reason that I ever win anything in 3gun, and I'm not bragging when I say that I can shoot a 12 gauge faster and better than 99.9% of the general gun owning population.

With that said, in a situation like this, I would take my rifle.

Now if I was working in a group of people, then I would want some shotguns along. Just one gun, give me my rifle. If I was staging out of a vehicle, then I would bring a shotgun too. Limited for space, weight? Give me my rifle.

And 300 yard slug shooting? Good luck with that! :D I don't doubt they would kill something, but I've never met a person that could get consistent first shot hits with a slug at that kind of range. Not even close. Whereas with a rifle, it is pretty darn easy.

[beerslurpy]

The choice in weaponry is about making your likely adversarial situations easy to overcome rather than merely possible. You should always be overprepared for a situation in which your life will be at risk. The only challenging situation should be when you mean an exceptionally prepared or numerous opponent.

Taking care of looters from 1-200 yards with a shotty seems like dicey proposition at best. Taking care of them with an EBR seems just about right. The AK is still easily capable of scoring hits at this range, and a decently sized AR will probably produce fragmentation. Bad guys will drop on the first shot or at least stop looting. And I will have plenty of ammo left for as long as it takes for order to be restored. About 100 arounds of 12 ga buck takes up the same amount of space and weight as 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 or 5.56x45. Carrying 200 rounds on you if you need to leave the house should not be difficult or inconvenient. Surviving in relatively foreseeable (one what-if away from absolute certainty) should not rely on burdensome conditions like having to carry 100 lbs of shotgun ammo or hoping you dont need to use it.

Incidentally, I personally dont beleive the stories of AKs becoming nonfunctional in water, even if they get rusty. All indications are that you will die long before you gun does.

[crofrog]

Taking care of looters from 1-200 yards with a shotty seems like dicey proposition at best.

Why would you be engaging looters at 100-200 yards? Your job is to survive not maintain law and order.


and a decently sized AR will probably produce fragmentation. Bad guys will drop on the first shot or at least stop looting.

One hit stops don't reliabliy happen with anything smaller than a howitzer.

Incidentally, I personally dont beleive the stories of AKs becoming nonfunctional in water, even if they get rusty. All indications are that you will die long before you gun does.

nonfunctional isn't the same as rusty. Rusty is however "one what-if" a way from non-functional. That being said if you have the luxury of picking the gun for the enviroment you are going to be fighting in. Why pick one that can rust at all if you are fighting around water...

Chris

[Zak Smith]

Why would you be engaging looters at 100-200 yards? Your job is to survive not maintain law and order.

Maybe they're shooting at you with handguns or shotguns and you want to stay out of their effective range. :neener: (Or, yeah, they could have rifles.)

[beerslurpy]

Stop arguing ad absurdum.

100 yards is a self defense range when confronted with armed looters. Waiting for them to get into range so you can use a shotgun seems like an unnecessary risk.

Whether the AK results in a 1 shot kill or a 1 shot stop or a 1 shot stop shooting at me at 200 yards is irrelevant. The looter will not be killing you, raping your girlfriend or carrying your TV. If he is lucky, he will be holding a bullet wound and limping. If he somehow keeps coming at you, keep giving him with that 120 grain stimuli until he changes his mind lol pavlov.

The amount of ammo you can carry is important. For example, Reginald Denny was caught by multiple armed assailants (during the LA riots), too many to kill with anything less than a drum-equipped shotgun. A single AK with a normal 30 rd mag would have killed all of them and still had plenty of ammo left. A mossberg with an 8 round tube would have been dry within the opening seconds of the fight. The Ak takes 2 seconds to reload to full capacity. Most shotguns take half a minute of uninterrupted fumbling with shells.

The simple question remains. If you have a rifle, why bother with a shotgun? The rifle can take care of all the same situations plus many more challenging ones.

[R.H. Lee]

If a group attacks you, retreats under fire, and is obviously regrouping to repeat the attack, I would certainly consider shooting at them justified.
How did I let them get away the first time? Am I just a lousy shot, did I neglect to wait until they were close enough, or what?

If they do that regrouping at the end of the block behind an abandoned truck, a shotgun is of very little use. A rifle or carbine would still be effective.
They know I'm armed, yet they're coming back again. They're either insane or very determined, plus now I've lost the element of surprise. They know where I am, but I may not be able to keep track of them. I'm hunkered down in one spot, maybe surrounded by them and more. I can't take a shot at them without exposing myself to incoming fire from another position. The problem is not with my choice of weapon, it's with my defense strategy. Surprise is your friend.

[Duh_Bear]

I was recently talking to my pop about this and he offered me up his Mossberg 20 gauge he use to use for bird hunting. Compared to 12 guage, how will the 20 compare in general? The only thing I'd do to it is cut the barrel down to 18 inches.

[crofrog]

in my personal opinion. this thread has gotten silly. Its not the hardware it's the software anyhow.

[EVIL5LITER]

There are a few things you guys are forgetting.

1). Your gun is going to have to function in the nastiest possible enviroment possible. This isn't just river water, this is industrial chemicals, seweage, river silt, etc. That means no gas operated rifles or shotguns if you're smart. If you've got to use a rifle that offers quick follow up shots, use a lever action .30-30.

2)Pump action doesn't jam nearly as easily. See above.

3)Whose worried about armor piercing here? Come to think about it, if you're so sure that a shotgun won't incapacitate someone in armor, you go buy a level 3 vest, and I'll shoot you in the chest with a slug. Let's see how long it takes before you get back up again. I guarantee you will not even be able to get off a shot before you're on the ground, clutching your chest, if you're even still coherent enough to realize it. During that period, I've either got time to escape or put one in your head, up close.

4)I guess WWII wasn't one with 8 round clips in the garands, huh? Who needs a 30 round magazine and 1,000 rounds of ammo, really? If you need 30 rounds to take out an armed assailant, you aren't going to make it anyway. And you are living out a Walter Mitty fantasy if you think that you are going to take out more than 8 guys at a time. Hell, you're living a fantasy if you think you're going to take out more than 3 guys. If you need more than 8 rounds to take out 3 men, you need to find a new fantasy.

[beerslurpy]

I am confident that my AK will continue to cycle under all conditions. The russians designed the AK after spending years standing next to the Fan while excrement was flung upon it. It was designed to handle mud, snow, dust, water and germans without failing. The AK is the definitive never fail autoloader.

Regular soft armor will not be penetrated by slugs or buck. It may still kill at close ranges, but I wouldnt bet my life on it. I would personally expect to not encounter armor, but I wouldnt bet my life on it. Since the rifle is superior in so many other ways, why not accept another benefit for free?

There are 200k people left in NO, many of whom are participating in serious crimes such as murder, rape and theft. If you are happy betting your life that you will only encounter 3 people, then be my guest. I will bet on meeting the army of hell so that I may be pleasantly surprised when only a few guys show.

[JohnKSa]

Don't care much for shotguns, but that's what I'd be using in a pinch, especially in an urban setting, and especially if I thought there was a serious chance of having to perforate someone. Smoothbores have advantages that have nothing to do with capability comparisons.

You don't need to carry a bunch of different kinds of ammo, just load it with heavy buck and carry some slug loads. And don't forget to pick up your empties--nobody likes a litterer. ;)

[MudPuppy]

Stick wheels and a bucket on an 870 and it makes a nice wheel barrow. :neener:

I've heard of AKs being rusted shut and placed on their buttstock and the charging handle stomped open an then immediately fired.

I've put more rounds through the AR-15 platform (maybe 5k rounds) but the % of stoppages were much higher than the AK (maybe 2k). I'd guess 30 or so FTF with the AR, 0 with the AK. Both were fairly abused--I think you take care of both rifles the way you "should" and they'll both function reasonably reliably. I like that I don't have to with the ak.

[R.H. Lee]

If you were out of commission, gone, knocked out, injured or killed, could anyone in your family pick up your AK and know how to use it instantly?

[Mannlicher]

the two biggest problems with shotties has always been the weight of the ammo, and the small mag capacity. Throw in short range, lack of precision shooting ability (poor sights), and weight, and it becomes a special pupose only weapon.

[fistful]

could anyone in your family pick up your AK and know how to use it instantly? And everybody knows how to load and cycle a pump shotgun? I don't know. Or maybe I missed your point.

[entropy]

Being the trap shooter bad lt mentioned, I'd still bring an AR/AK/SKS rather than my 870, simply because, although anything I fire at with the 870 within 75 yards with any type of round, (bird, buck or slug) is dead, the advantages a hi-cap carbine offers are too great to pass up. Yes, I have an 870 for HD, and it is the best choice for this, IMO. The max range in my house is eight yards. Woe unto any whom I fire on with it in my house. But for external defense with the possibility of having to go mobile, give me an AK, for the reasons MudPuppy states. I have about five times the # of rounds thru various AR/M16 models, and have had way less stoppage, but I've only had 2 from any AK's I've fired, out of perhaps 2k rounds fired. Both these were from captured guns used by the US Army for training, and they were beat up bad. If you include SKS's add 3k more with one stoppage. Clearly the AK and SKS are more robust. The 870 is an excellent choice for a shotgun, they too are very solid. But when the SHTF 'round here, I 'll be toting an AK or SKS. My .02, YMMV. ;)

[Feanaro]

Don't argue with the trap shooter and the shotgun he uses on a weekly basis.

"Don't argue with the High Power shooter and the rifle he uses on a weekly basis. Don't argue with the IDPA/IPSC shooter and the pistol he uses on a weekly basis."

There are people good with shotguns. So? Doesn't mean their choice of weaponry is superior or particularly suited to the task at hand.

Its not the hardware it's the software anyhow.

So I don't need to upgrade my PC to play the latest video games anymore? I wish you'd told them that five years and several thousand dollars ago. :uhoh:

The idea that the "hardware" has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a shooter is absolutely ridiculous, accepted wisdom or not. Yes, all the "hardware" in the world is useless if your "software" isn't any good. But training/the person(and software) can be limited by the hardware used. Just ask the guy trying to play Half-Life 2 on a 486, or anyone who attempts to get one inch groups at 100 yards with Wolf ammunition and a shot-out AK.

[bad LT]

All I ment by my previous statement is that most people will be more effective with something they use on a regular basis than the "tacticool" carbine they keep unfired in an attic.

[MudPuppy]

If you were out of commission, gone, knocked out, injured or killed, could anyone in your family pick up your AK and know how to use it instantly?

In my family, yeah, absolutely. They also know how to use the shotgun and ar-15. I don't think a pump shotgun is any easier to instinctively know how to use.

I do have a friend that's never fired (maybe even never handled) any firearm. I think I'll do a blind taste test to see which is easier for him to get going.

Agreed, you better have the whole family familar with what you have available. I've recently had to go through that with the wife, and she knows her way around guns a bit.
ME: "Yes, it says 7.62 on the gun, but it won't use this box of 7.62--it's x39, which is for the AK."
HER: "What does it use then?"
ME: "The box labeled 308 Win."
HER: "Not this box...the 7.62X54r?"
ME: "No, that's for the M-44--the CETME is a thirty cal."
HER: "Oh, this here box, 30 cal--wait, this is for the carbine, right?"
ME:"Yeah, that's right."
HER: "This is stupid."
ME:"Sweetie, you've just got to pay attention."
HER: "Maybe you have too many guns..."
ME:"...My cold dead fingers..."

[R.H. Lee]

I do have a friend that's never fired (maybe even never handled) any firearm. I think I'll do a blind taste test to see which is easier for him to get going.
That would be an interesting experiment. Have him watch you go through loading and firing each firearm, then a little while later let him have at it.

[benEzra]

For the shotgun advocates, I think you can probably make the case that for most situations, the shotgun is as good as a carbine. The converse is also true, IMHO, that even for close-range home-defense situations, the carbine is as good as a shotgun. I do NOT think a shotgun is far and away superior; I think they each have their strong points, and to each his own.

If you were out of commission, gone, knocked out, injured or killed, could anyone in your family pick up your AK and know how to use it instantly?
Yes. And they wouldn't be able to pick up and use a pump shotgun, because my wife doesn't know how to load one, and would be mystified by that little button that locks the action.

[entropy]

All I ment by my previous statement is that most people will be more effective with something they use on a regular basis than the "tacticool" carbine they keep unfired in an attic.


Oh, I fire that a lot, too..... :evil:

[goon]

Personally, I would prefer a rifle, probably an FAL variant.
I am looking at selling my AK to get a shorter FAL than the full length ORF Imbel that I have now.
Will it look more evil than a wood stocked 870?
Yep, I think that some would think it does.
But is that a bad thing?
I don't think it is.

[natedog]

Rifle > Shotgun, for most situations.

However, I keep my 870 ready for defense inside- it has a light, and I don't like the idea of lighting off .30-06 in my house...

[Mannlicher]

Shotties will always be special purpose weapons, not primary combat tools. Ammo is too heavy, mag capacityis limited, range is limited, and accuracy is limited. Keep the shotgun by the bed for home defence, take the rifle if you intend to go into harm's way.

[beerslurpy]

All I ment by my previous statement is that most people will be more effective with something they use on a regular basis than the "tacticool" carbine they keep unfired in an attic.

Actually the gun I shoot the most is easily the AK. For some reason I have a bias against pistols.

[Burt Blade]

Ladies and gentlemen, the humble M-1 Carbine.

It is "enough" gun to put an armed and angry man down. Millions of servicemen used it to deadly effect in several wars.

The M-1 carbine is reasonably priced (although they are nowhere near as cheap as they used to be). Magazines, ammunition,and acessories are also quite reasonably priced.

You can carry a large quantity of ammunition for it.

It accepts 15 and 30 round magazines.

It is lightweight and very handy.

Recoil is easily controlled.

If is useably fitted to almost any typical American, from a 5' 0" 100 pound person to a 6'4" 300 pound person.

Any decent marksman can put food on the table with it. It will reliably take game from varmits to deer with proper shot placement. Soft-point ammunition makes huntin more reliable.



No gun is ideal in all ways, but the M-1 Carbine is a very effective fighting tool for general purposes.

[beerslurpy]

Is the m1 reliable?

[fistful]

Shotties will always be special purpose weaponsWhat is a "shottie"?
:banghead:
If your shotgun is shoddy, get it repaired.

[benEzra]

All I ment by my previous statement is that most people will be more effective with something they use on a regular basis than the "tacticool" carbine they keep unfired in an attic.

That would be the carbines, in our house.

[Island Beretta]

not so sure the rifle necessarily beats the shotgun as a purely self-defense tool either esp. in an urban setup..a lot depends on situation, user and how each equipment is setup..e.g I hear about crappy sights in a shotgun but come on, that can easily be changed..

the shotgun is limited by capacity and range but in normal combat zones (<=100 yds.) the weapon is very effective..I have seen bullets from rifles pass through humans in confrontations, I have seen people take solid torso multiple rifle hits and keep running or attacking..but always with a shotgun, the fight is put to rest quickly..

as for bullet types, on my 30 slot belt carrier, I carry 10 00/000 buckshots, 5 no. 4 buckshots, 5 slugs, 5 heavy dove and 5 beanbags.. these all have different applications.. in the shotgun (capacity for 11 2 3/4' shots) is 10 00/000 buckshots with a slot left for one more shell which I can feed straight into the chamber..I have rifle sights (had ghost sights but I couldnt seem to work well with them) that have been zeroed at 50 yds with hollowpoint winchester X slugs loaded to 1650fps velocity.. in tests these slugs have penetrated the 2 front doors of a car.. shotgun is a Benelli 12ga M3 convertible with 19.75' backbored chrome-lined barrel tapered down to Improved cylinder diameter..it has a forward set bipod with telescopic legs that I use if I have to go prone and don't want to rest my elbow on the ground (that kick will scrap your elbow).. this is an awesome weapon...

[Nematocyst]

All you rifle-for-SHTF advocates can make all the logical, rational arguments you wish about shooting looters at 300 m, armour piercing rnds, ammo weight, ammo types, etc, etc, etc.

But it don't make no difference to me. If da SHTF, and I can only carry two guns, I'll be leaving here with: 1) K9; 2) 870P with a few each of: 00, #8, & slugs.

I could care less what that dude 300 m from me is doing. Lay low, stay quiet.

If he bursts on my scene within 25 yds, I'm sending several 9 mm sized pro-jectiles in his direction in a pattern, while he may only have 1 coming towards me.

Shotguns rule.

:neener:

[Kodiaz]

Just my .02 here I live in Fl and have been thru 3 hurricanes. I have shotguns and after Katrina I want an AR and an AK.


If 50 or 100 guys are coming down the street beating on peoples doors I'm not waiting for them to get within range of their weapons.

I'll be on the roof of my house because it gives me a better vantage point.

After riots and looting like that I'm sure that a jury of survivors who stay behind will be disinclined to find anyone guilty of self defense.

This being Fl I have the right to "meet force with force anywhere I have a right to be if I feel threatened" thank you so much JEB! Bush

I have the right to be on the roof of my house

[Cosmoline]

I guess it depends on what "SHTF" you're talking about. Fighting off invading nazis might require a rifle, but a shotgun is more practical for the kind of natural disaster situation most of us are likely to face. Lots of folks in LA and Mississippi used shotguns to blast holes in their roofs and escape. I've used slug guns to cut down trees--works better than you might expect. They can be used to bring down any game from small game to moose. They can be used to signal. They're also pretty convincing for keeping looters away.

[Mannlicher]

They make all kinds of guns, so all kinds of folks can choose what they feel is best for them. Not all choices are optimum, and not many choices will ever be put to the test. I hope if the mythical "SHTF" does occur, then your choice of weapon will be validated.

[justsurvivingincalifornia]

I think all of you have been watch just a few too many zombie films.

Looters do not attack in human waves. After you have proved to them that you have lethal firearms the looter will look else where for easier pray. It’s highly unlikely they will continue to attack and loot a defended home.

Remember:The wolf will eat all the sheep first, then try eat the porcupine last only if they are real hungry.

However, if they just want to kill you because they don’t like you, that another story. They try to burn you out. Plastic soda bottle filled with gasoline with road flares attach would work well. When you try to put out the fires they would shoot you with their rifles.

I can summarize the rifles vs. shotguns argument by saying, “Shotguns are best for Defense (close range) and Rifles are for Offense”
That why all armies are armed with rifles for range and firepower.

Every one in your party should be armed and trained. In reality it might be too expensive to arm every one with AR. Maybe AK could be more affordable. Pump Shotguns are dirt-cheap however.

Also> Consider the use of 30-06, 7.65x51 7.65x54R, 303brit. in FMJ. Not so much for their range but their penetration. They will all go through cars, walls and light body armor,.

[Sinsaba]

It strikes me that it really depends on what type of StuffHitsTheFan. If I'm digging in I'm goin to want all 3 (pistol, rifle, shotgun). If I have to BO and I need to be armed then pistol and rifle. If this looks like it isn't SHTF but is EOTWAWKI then it has to be the pistol and rifle. The reasoning is simple...

Look around ... in an urban setting (such as I am in) which is more common? 12GA or .223? If I have to pick up my ammo as I go, I want something that is everywhere. Granted, in the country things might change and the shotgun or even some other rifle round might me more common.

[benEzra]

I guess it depends on what "SHTF" you're talking about. Fighting off invading nazis might require a rifle, but a shotgun is more practical for the kind of natural disaster situation most of us are likely to face.
As practical, certainly. More practical--I'd say they're equally practical in general. A shotgun may be more practical for you, but a carbine is way more practical for me, because that's what I shoot well and that's what I'm confident with.

"A shotgun is best for me" doesn't equate to "a shotgun is best for everybody," and the same could be said about carbines/EBR's. Both work.

Make mine a SAR-1, but if my neighbor breaks out his 870, more power to him.

[rustymaggot]

i second the comment about the m1 carbine. wonderful little rifle. a good all around cartridge. my m1 carbine is my first choice for any serious shtf situation. someone asked if they are reliable. reliable enough, we used them in more than one war.


for non riot or disaster home defence, shotgun or pistol. you dont need the accuracy of a rifle with room to room stuff. id rather have the reliability of the pump when im that close to my targets.


shotgun has severe disadvantages outside the house, rifle all the way in open areas. if your strictly indoors and shooting less than 30 feet away then id go shotgun. oh, and whoever quoted half a minute to reload a shotgun is just plain wrong. pump shotguns are very quick to reload if you know how and are willing to practice. when your dry you can slap a round in thru the ejection port and close the chamber on it. me and my friends have contests shooting clay by having a buddy pull the thrower when you have a round in your hand and a empty shotgun in the other. its not too hard to get the round into the gun and fire before the clay is gone. helps you get good at reloading.

i think we all owe it to ourselves to be as good as we can be with as many different guns as possible. when shtf you might not get to pick and choose, you might get stuck with less than ideal because thats how the chips fall.

[Burt Blade]

If you own a shotgun as a fighting tool, have you patterned it with your fighting ammunition on man-sized targets? Have you patterned it at 25 yards? 50? If you are counting on slugs to hit beyond 25 yards, have you fired at various 25 to 100 yard targets, to learn the drop of the slugs, and how they group, in your gun?

Most cylinder bore (no choke) riot guns are starting to show problems with pellet pattern at distances as short as 25 yards. If the gun throws 9 pellets of 00 Buckshot, and only four hit the IPSC target, and none of them in the A zone, you have a problem. If that is the best you can consistently do at 50 yards, you have a 25-30 yard gun at best.

[brerrabbit]

My primary weapon for SHTF/EOTWAWKI is a plain jane 870. But then again, my setup is probably better than most. I live on a farm in a very rural community, seven miles from paved roads. You guys plan on bugging out, I am bugging in. Any combat I will every be in would be purely defensive

I'm not big on OOB in a shotgun when I'm deer hunting. But here is my take on a shot gun with slugs. At 25 yards, I can put a round dead center of a field pumpkin that is ten inches tall. At 50 yards I can still hit it. At 100 yards, I can reliably drop a deer. Probably further but I dont like tracking down gut shot deer.

In a defensive mode, I dont care about a guy out past a hundred yards. Where I live, he aint gonna get a shot at me much over that range in a SHTF situation.

Sure I aint got the capacity that a looter with AK has, or the long range capability. But I do have the capability of sending 4 slugs, or 36 balls of OOB out to greet him. I may hit him, I may not, But I dont have to rely on taking time better spent running or finding concealment to carefully aim at him.

Shotgunning aint like target shooting with a rifle. Rifle shooting, all the lead has to hit the target for it to be good shooting. Shotgunning, only one piece of lead has to hit.

Capacity: Since someone already started on that. Yes, shot gun shells are heavy, but then again so are regular rifle rounds. I have an adequate supply of shotgun ammo. All I have to do is go back to my house and load up what I want to carry, I can spend ammo like water. A looter with a rifle probably does not have that luxury , He is carrying all the ammo that he most likely will ever have for the weapon he is carrying. If he has to expend a lot of ammo just to get one meal, he is already losing and knows it.

Keeping looters away: As someone already pointed out, looters aint mindless hordes of zombies, Show them that you have a sting, they will probably go look elsewhere.

If they shoot me in ambush and take over my farm, My neighbors will handle them, just as I would handle anyone doing in my neighbors. I live very deep in the woods out here. Any body coming out here looking for trouble has already gone through seven miles of armed farmers/ranchers.

[Nematocyst]

My primary weapon for SHTF/EOTWAWKI is a plain jane 870. +10 on that & everything else you wrote above.

If you happen to need a farm hand to shovel dung & help with the garden (along with some serious science & math skills), & a reasonable arsenal (including an 870), please let me know.

7 mi from a paved road. Wow. Feeling slight envy right about now.

There are places like that near here, on public USFS & BLM lands. Going to explore them next summer.

Bug in, indeed.

Nem

[Cosmoline]

As practical, certainly. More practical--I'd say they're equally practical in general. A shotgun may be more practical for you, but a carbine is way more practical for me, because that's what I shoot well and that's what I'm confident with.

"A shotgun is best for me" doesn't equate to "a shotgun is best for everybody," and the same could be said about carbines/EBR's. Both work.

Make mine a SAR-1, but if my neighbor breaks out his 870, more power to him.

I love rifles, but in practice I've just found a shotty a lot more useful as a general purpose weapon. Example--it took almost twenty rounds of very expensive .375 H&H soft points to drop a large birch tree, but only half as many cheap slugs. You can do all sorts of things with a shotgun. Even fish with it. A slug will punch through water where a rifle round explodes on the surface.

[Nematocyst]

You can do all sorts of things with a shotgun. Even fish with it. A slug will punch through water where a rifle round explodes on the surface. So, my 870P will negate the necessity of buying a fly rod, reel & flies
to catch salmonids, including trout, as food after SHTF?

Would you be willing to offer more explicit directions, please (and thank you). Will try them out next summer in the southern Cascades. (Even though, I gotta say, doing it with fly rod, reel & some (caddis/may) flies just sounds more relaxing than blasting 'em out of the water with slugs.

Nem

[Dave McCracken]

Sorry, folks, I just can't get into the "Mine is Better/Bigger" mindset. Especially, when the best course in an emergency is being allied with other folks. These others may be armed with a variety of weapons, and that's a good thing.

Shotgun, carbine, EBR? Heck, yes, carried by members of a fire team capable of engagements close in or far out.

The mindset of "Me against the hordes" is egregious. Also suicidal.

In our little cul de sac here we've several gun owners of good character, one besides me with actual combat experience. In a crisis, we'd form a militia PDQ.

The combat vet's wife is an RN, with ER time in. Another plus for organizing.

Weapons will include shotguns, handguns, a couple bolt action deer rifles, one semi auto rifle and two lever action 30-30s.

IMO we can handle anything this side of The Golden Horde when it comes to looters.

[Mannlicher]

I see a lot of 'thats my story and I'm sticking to it' stuff here. Guns are tools, in this case, and you should have more than just one screwdriver in your tool belt.
The other thing I keep seeing is blind belief in what someone THINKS a given gun will do in the real world. The difference between gun myth and gun reality can, and will, get you killed.

[Tokugawa]

I suspect combat experiance will prove far more important than any gun or caliber choice. It is not the tool thats counts.


And cosmo, don't ya'all have chain saws up there?! Actually, I blasted a tree down with a 12ga myself, I did;nt want to get near it, it was sprung so hard..

[Nematocyst]

And cosmo, don't ya'all have chain saws up there?! LOL. :D

I'm wondering the same about fishing gear. :D

I think Cosmoline thinks of his 12 ga as a Leatherman tool: one tool does everything.

Need to wash some pots? No problem. Where's my dust shot?

{Just kidding, Cosmo. ;) I'm really curious about how you get salmon with slugs.}

Nem

[mbs357]

I think the best thing to do when bugging out is to do it in a team.
Have a shotgunner, a rifleman, and if possible a machine gunner and duplicates of the first two.
That way you can carry a lot of ammo and supplies between you all, and have a gun ready for any situation.

[entropy]

But I do have the capability of sending 4 slugs,

Um...why can't you get a fifth one in? The 870 holds five, including one in the chamber, ya know.;)


If your training class involved humping it through salt water, mud and building rubble. Where can I sign up? It sounds like my kinda training

Your local recruiter will be glad to be of assistance....:p


Example--it took almost twenty rounds of very expensive .375 H&H soft points to drop a large birch tree, but only half as many cheap slugs.

Some guys have all the fun...you should try it with an M60 sometime.....:evil:


Make mine a SAR-1, but if my neighbor breaks out his 870, more power to him.

And if you team up with him, BenEzra, even more power to both of you, because now you have some one to watch your back and cover to short shots so you can concentrate on longer range observation and shots.;)

I'm really curious about how you get salmon with slugs

I prefer the .30-06 and 7.62x54R for fishing. used from a high enough angle, they penetrate water just fine, and bring the fish up to the top instantly...:D

[brerrabbit]

I don't carry a round chambered in my 870. Call me old fashioned, paranoid or what. But I dont trust gun safeties in general.

[Kodiaz]

Safety is barrel pointed at scumbag and finger on trigger.


If you want to see some eye opening tests using different calibers on all kinds of materials go to bucket of truth.com. 12 gauge slugs penetrate all kinds of interesting stuff

[Nematocyst]

bucket of truth.com. That URL generates 'invalid address'.

Going here http://bucketoftruth.com/ gives me nothing but a bucket, with no link to anything else.

what am i doing wrong?

[Cosmoline]

I suspect combat experiance will prove far more important than any gun or caliber choice. It is not the tool thats counts.


And cosmo, don't ya'all have chain saws up there?! Actually, I blasted a tree down with a 12ga myself, I did;nt want to get near it, it was sprung so hard..

Sure, but shotguns are a good way to resolve the impossible snags of spruce you sometimes encounter. (or in my case create--with a chainsaw). Also, in the winter when the trees are frozen solid a chainsaw isn't much good--but a slug works fine. One of these days I'm going to use just a shotgun and a camp axe to constuct a log-frame survival shelter.

[Cosmoline]

{Just kidding, Cosmo. ;) I'm really curious about how you get salmon with slugs.}

Nem

I was thinking more along the lines of pike, but I suppose you could shoot salmon as they mil around at the base of a waterfall. It's quite illegal, though. For pike no holds are barred. People usually use regular rigs or spears but I don't know why a slug woud be a problem. F&G has a "kill them all" order in effect.

What got me thinking along these lines was looking at the tests the "Mythbusters" guys did. The slug punched through nine feet of water and ruptured the holding tank, but even the big fifty exploded on the surface. In a survival situation you might find yourself looking longingly at a fish just a few inches under the water that might as well be a light year away. Trying to catch it by hand is futile. So blast it!

[benEzra]

That URL generates 'invalid address'.

Going here http://bucketoftruth.com/ gives me nothing but a bucket, with no link to anything else.

what am i doing wrong?

I think he means the Box o'Truth site:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

[Kodiaz]

Sorry it is www.theboxotruth.com oops

[Nematocyst]

blast away at small game or FISH, with a rd that tells everyone for miles around where you are? Not me, when the woods will have to be assumed to be full of desperate men with rifles. ... I'd rather hunt small game or birds with a .22 pistol. It's more sporting... If the woods are filled with desparate people with rifles, I'm unlikely to worry about 'sporting' when seeking food.

If the SHTF, I'm not going to be carrying an 870 to fish with (except in desparation, e.g., I'm starving), but take a large variety of terrestrial game (squirrel, rabbit, coon, deer, birds...) & to defend a forested camp against those 'desparate others' with rifles.

In a forested camp, I've got about as much range advantage as the latter. Up close, I'd rather face an AK any day than a load of 00.

Nem

[Nematocyst]

it clear what I meant. No more or less clear than Cosmoline's original post (#75) about 'fishing' with slugs. He was making a general comment about uses for a shotgun that several others among us found interesting.

You're the one who chose to condescend it.

You'd have to be REALLY close to make that 00 more effective than the AK, because dangerous people use cover... And people who use shotguns don't?

I don't know where you live, but in my part of the country, in old growth, one can't see further than 50 yds.

At 50 yds, I'm sending 9 large pellets in a large pattern everytime I pull the trigger for every one that AK sends back.

In fact, if the AK has luminous sights and the shotgun has none, the AK is better at 10 yds, in the dark. Whoop te do.

Look, I'm not arguing that my 870 is any better than your {choose your gun}.

What I AM saying is, don't wade in here with only 22 posts and start criticizing the rest of us who may have reasons for doing what we're doing.

If you got something to say, please make an "I" statement instead of being so flippantly negative about what others may or may not do.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

The shotgun is primarily a defensive weapon and for many years it was referred to as the woman's best friend, why you ask? simply all that she has to do is tuck the but of the shotgun to her hip and point in the general direction and pull the trigger, given a little training that is.

[brerrabbit]

Uglit, Nematocyst870 is pretty much right. But understand, there is no ONE proper firearm for SHTF. Everybodies situations are different, thus their firearms needs are different. I love my 870 shotgun, but I also have a .22 with several thousand rounds for hunting and trade.

I am not sure about your arguement on penetration and AK over a 12 guage in close quarters. Dead is dead, OOB with a modified choke is pretty lethal at 25 yards and under,50 yards or so using a slug insert instead of a choke, plus the ability to use spread makes a shotgun a very capable defensive weapon. I can afford the minor disadvantages that a 12 gauge has for the versatility it provides. In my part of the country, you wont see over a hundred yard shot in the woods, nor will you catch me out where you have over a hundred yard shot at me.

If SHTF, I am in a defensive position on a farm with all the ammo,food and livestock I need. If you dont have your place staked out and preps made, you are in an offensive position. You have to obtain your needs from nature, or from someone that already has them. Your firearm needs would be vastly different then mine. If I dont kill an animal, I have to dive into my very ample stockpile of food. You just might get a little thinner on the other hand. I dont have to worry about weight considerations of my ammo, you do.

All I have to do is discourage an interloper from taking what I already have, Based on what I can tell of your preps, when you get hungry, you will have to be an interloper to survive.

I am not worried about exposing my position with a 12 gauge. The only people that will hear it go off are my neighbors. My neighbors health is a concern of mine, If they arent eating right, my overall security is in jeopardy. They are more than welcome to a portion of my kills and to hunt on my place if I can hunt on theirs.