Sell Me on the HK91


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Skunkabilly
March 26, 2003, 12:15 AM
I'll be getting an AR15 when I move to Arizona...any reason I should get an HK91 first?

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Nightcrawler
March 26, 2003, 12:57 AM
Several reasons, Skunk.

1. It costs more. Get it out of the way while you have the money.

2. HK factory 20-round magazines run cheaper than GI 30 round AR mags.

3. It's considerably more powerful than the AR-15.

4. It lacks a gas system and is very reliable.

5. It's cooler.

6. EVERYbody has AR-15s. Being different than the pack is always cool.

7. You have a love for HK weapons.

8. It's one of the original Evil Black Rifles.

9. I hear they're very accurate, in addition to being reliable.

10. There plenty of custom shops and gunsmiths out there if anything goes wrong.

11. If you buy an original, it'll be a preban. That means a bayonet, a collapsing stock if you want it, etc.

12. Nothing says tactical like an HK.

:cool:

Schuey2002
March 26, 2003, 01:05 AM
Just get one when you are ready.

OK! OK! Here are some good reasons to get one now.

It's got Tacticality oozing out of it's roller lockers. It's black. It's made by H&K. It will go with your USP's and P7. It's black. Tamara has one. It will fit in perfectly with your "theme" collection. It's tactically logistical. Mags are runnin' $3-5 bucks a piece.

Who cares if it will cost you around 2K. It's only money.

As you said, " Money is no substitute for tacticality!" :D

Destructo6
March 26, 2003, 02:56 AM
By even asking, you've exposed your desire. You'll continue to wonder until you finally buy one. Why torture yourself?

Oh, and I can't think of much better than what Nightcrawler said.

Tamara
March 26, 2003, 04:34 AM
AR-15's were never advertised by guys lurking in mud or jumping off cliffs on the back page of Soldier of Fiction. :D

AK103K
March 26, 2003, 05:50 AM
Unless you absolutlely, just gotta have it, I'd spend that chunk of money on some other things first. It will go farther. I've had a couple of HK91's, and while they have their good points, they also have some annoying ones too. Mine were always accurate and reliable. You cant beat the QD scope mount that holds its zero. Although the ARMS mount is better than the HK for usefulness and comfort. It is a versitile rifle. The down sides are, its heavy and the balance isnt all that great. The controls are "just not quite right". You cant reach the safety in certain positions and the same goes for charging the gun, the charging handle can be a chore. All the accessories, except maybe for the mags, are expensive. The bipod would be better if it was adjustable, it was to high for me. They are well made, nice rifles, but once you play with them, the little things can really annoy you. They are not worth the money they command, but thats not really the guns fault here, just inflated prices. Personally, if I was in the market, I'd go with one of the Armalite AR10 type rifles. Its got the versitility of the HK, more user friendly, and with the right model, highly accurate. For what you will spend for the HK alone, you can almost get both AR's.

Kharn
March 26, 2003, 07:51 AM
That sucker is more tactical than your wildest mall-ninja day-dreams. :neener:

Kharn

Art Eatman
March 26, 2003, 08:55 AM
And learning how to reassemble the bolt and get it back into place will teach you an incredible amount of patience, self-control and how to deal with frustration!

It's psychologically tactical and will certainly enhance your maturity.

Or you could get a nice little bolt-action .223 or .243 and learn all about calling coyotes. For a lot less money...

:D, Art

Chipperman
March 26, 2003, 11:51 AM
If you need convincing then you don't deserve one. :neener:


Nightcrawler did a great job with his list.

Remember that the HK does not have an annoying "Sproing" The cycling is smooth and fast.

All HK91's are Preban, so they are only going up in price.

When you get a sear, you can drop it in your HK91, 93, and MP5 with minor changes. :evil:

It's an HK, 'nuff said.

jem375
March 26, 2003, 12:47 PM
My son had one which I reloaded for and it was one of the most accurate rifles I have seen with open sights......

Nightcrawler
March 26, 2003, 02:15 PM
And H&K friggin' INVENTED "tactical", Skunk! Do it! HK91! You know you want to....

;)

brownie0486
March 26, 2003, 02:45 PM
Have owned an HK91 set up as a psg1 when I went to HK in 94 for counter-sniper training.

They are accurate, reliable, heavy hitters. Sights are great as is but I had a tritium replacemet front sight on mine. Bipod, brass deflector, clawmount and scope, psg1 trigger, psg1 grip and stock.

Qualified as a counter-sniper with HK in 94 with that rifle.

They are heavy, no doubt about that but then anything throwing 308 reliably probably will be.

Have had ar10's in 308. Not junk but certanily no HK91 either.

Don't own any of them now, I'm playing with the big boys toys.

m-14 Battle rifles rule. They may not be tacticool like the black rifles but hey, they bang hard and I was trained on them by the best instructors in the world [USMC DI's ].

Nothing semi-auto says "I can touch you at 800 yds" like an m-14
:cool:

I have two post bans and three prebans in different guises. If you really want the ultimate [which I am having built on a preban when I get the rifle in from Biloxi, Ms.] get a preban m1a and have this http://www.troyind.com/ company build you a SOPMOD.

Shorter than an m4, 308, folding stock for battle rifle or assault guise.

Best of both worlds, I'll have mine in 6 weeks.

Brownie

Tamara
March 26, 2003, 03:06 PM
And learning how to reassemble the bolt and get it back into place will teach you an incredible amount of patience, self-control and how to deal with frustration!

Unless you happen to have an Actual German Drill SergeantTM around to teach you the right way. ;)

gun-fucious
March 26, 2003, 03:37 PM
dood! that sopmod M14 is wicked cool.

Send a picture of it to Diane Feinstein when you get it

:evil:

gk1
March 26, 2003, 07:29 PM
Not until you buy a bolt action .22LR (preferably with a wooden stock)! :D Once you've learned to shoot a rifle, then maybe you should consider a black plastic tactical wonder. And best of all, you can probably buy the .22 now, so by the time you've moved, you'll be able to hit something with whatever you end up choosing...

George

plnkr1234
March 26, 2003, 08:11 PM
Hi Guys,

What would a like new without box 91 go for?

Thanks.

El Tejon
March 26, 2003, 08:20 PM
Brasshopper, this is fellow tacgolfer, talksonphonealot, yes, there is a reason: to get it out of your system.

Get the gig; get the gun you want. Get it out of your system while you're young.

I was going to say walk the earf first and see what education brings, but I knew you would ignore me. Rightly so.:D

Mannlicher
March 26, 2003, 08:23 PM
no. they are just not worth buying

natedog
March 26, 2003, 10:15 PM
OT reply, but I'm just like you. I dream about all the pistol-gripped, hi-capactiy, bullet spewing, evil black assault rifles, even though I won't be getting out of Cali anytime soon. Arizona's great, though.

Oleg Volk
March 27, 2003, 11:24 AM
I like lhe looks of them and even the sights which everyone else dislikes. Mags are cheap.

Control layout is questionable and the balance is a bit too far forward even for my long arms. It is a lot of a rifle.

I keep hoping to find one cheap but that's for amusement, not for serious use. The price of the rifle and accessories is so high that other choices make more sense to me...YMMV. Have you fired an HK91?

Tamara
March 27, 2003, 11:35 AM
...the balance is a bit too far forward even for my long arms. It is a lot of a rifle.

You just need to eat more, bro. ;)

Schuey2002
March 27, 2003, 11:41 AM
You just need to eat more, bro
This applies to you to, Skunk..

Time to eat your Tactical Wheaties..:D ;)

Art Eatman
March 27, 2003, 11:43 AM
Tam, I guess it sez sumpn about my tinkerability that I managed the disassembly/clean/reassembly with neither the Sergeant nor any literature.

If it ain't welded, it'll come apart. If it comes apart in some certain order, it'll go back together in reverse order. Anything that's spring-loaded requires three hands or prehensile toes. :)

The 91 was a fun critter. I bought it on account of the guy threw in a thousand rounds at eight cents per each. After shooting the ammo, I found somebody wanted the 91 more than I did...

Profit is nice.

:), Art

Tamara
March 27, 2003, 12:05 PM
Tam, I guess it sez sumpn about my tinkerability that I managed the disassembly/clean/reassembly with neither the Sergeant nor any literature.

It durn well does! :eek: I got as far as the bolt, decided I was too lazy to tinker with it or look something up online, and figured "What the heck, lendringser will be over tomorrow at lunch..." ;)

Skunkabilly
March 27, 2003, 03:10 PM
Oleg, I fired an HK91 and didn't like it, but it was off a bench. I'll hate ANYTHING shooting from a bench.

I'm going to call my buddy up and see if I can take him to lunch and shoot his 91.

Nightcrawler
March 27, 2003, 03:22 PM
The M14 SOPMOD is cool. But if you really want a short barreled rifle (and want to go through the hassle to get one) you could get a 13" FAL from DSA for a lot less than buying a preban M1A and then sending it in to get customized.

Check out DS Arms (http://www.dsarms.com) anyway. They have a very wide selection these days.

OF
March 27, 2003, 03:53 PM
They are way cool. Accurate. Lots of accessories and toys available.

Only gripes:

- awful trigger. can be rectified with a drop-in MSG90 trigger group

- heavy. if I was going to have a battle rifle to tote around, it'd be an FAL

- beaucoup money

OF
March 27, 2003, 03:59 PM
I mean, HK91's are cool. But this is...beyond cool. And it's cheaper, too.

http://www.dsarms.com/images/ewcongo.jpg

- Gabe

Fatelvis
March 27, 2003, 04:00 PM
They`re too expensive. Id rather have a M1A, (Better sights, and overall accuracy). And I HATE reloading cases ejected from a 91, they`re striped!

atek3
March 27, 2003, 04:06 PM
READ Boston's gun bible Before you buy.

If you have a considerable amount of money I'd get a pre-ban belgian FAL or a pre-ban M1A that has been 'tacticalled' out.


atek3

Tamara
March 27, 2003, 04:24 PM
Nothing personal to Mssr. T. Party, but I wouldn't exactly call his Gun Bible an unbiased piece of work. He's got his favorites (like we all do) and it shows.

Handy
March 27, 2003, 04:46 PM
From what I can tell, the base HK91 (G3) is on average MORE accurate than a basic M1A, but the M1A has better long range sights.

Something to think about price wise:
The HK91 is all quality mil. issue parts. A stock M14 clone that is built of all GI parts is going to be $1400 or better. If you want all GI AND better than 2 MOA barrel, now the rifle is pushing $2K (obviously, you may do better used, but it's tough, and there is no guarantee that the gun IS all GI). All the 91 NEEDS is an $80 trigger job.

Other HK91 options include the preban Greek and Portugese imports which run $400 or so less than a comparable German gun. I've had two Greek ones, both will hold MOA with decent (not even match) ammo.

Skullboy
March 27, 2003, 04:47 PM
My shooting buddy had an HK-91 and it was a great rifle, even though it was a bit on the heavy side.It was extremely accurate, and had the "cool" factor. The downside was that the mags up here in Canada were expensive, and the extractor was really hard on the case rims(If you reload, it will makr you cry.I gave him 50 virgin .308 Fed. Match case for it and the extractor chewed up the rims!! I cried!!).

He wishes he didn't sell it, but the Canadian Government was putting them on the prohited list, and he didn't want to risk loosing it without compensation, so he sold it.

SKBY.

JShirley
March 27, 2003, 04:57 PM
Nah.

The G-3 wouldn't been around if the Germans could have bought the rights to the G-1 (FN FAL)!

Handy
March 27, 2003, 05:11 PM
Yeah! And all the other countries that purchased or built the G3 for their troops just wanted to be like the beloved Germans!

The G3 is one of the only .308 military rifles you will STILL see in the news throughout the world. The design is tough and has a proven record in the Artic, Jungle and Desert.

JShirley
March 27, 2003, 05:16 PM
...and one still sees CETMES and FALS in Africa and elsewhere, too. In the US, one still sees the occasional M14 in service, especially with the navy. (Yawn.)

And one still sees bolt-action iron-sighted rifles in use in some third-world countries. And?

Marko Kloos
March 27, 2003, 05:22 PM
Yeah, the Germans wanted the FAL (G1), but the G3 wasn't a bad consolation prize.

I want a HK91 just because I toted one in the service, but it's not a magic sword...no rifle is perfect.

The G3 is very rugged, more so than the FAL. It's easily scoped via claw mount. The iron sights are very good, once you learn how to use them properly. Recoil is pretty mild for a full-power battle rifle. Ergonomics are decent, field-stripping is simple (even the bolt group). The G3 is probably the most reliable battle rifle ever issued. Accuracy is on par with the FAL, and the G3 has no gas system that needs to be adjusted. Magazines are very cheap, especially since the Germans switched to G36s and dumped all their surplus G3 mags on the market.

On the downside, G3/HK91s are heavy. They lack a bolt hold-open feature, which is a major annoyance, especially since cocking a G3 requires a lot more force than cocking a FAL or M14. (When you pull back the charging handle, you force the roller lock out of engagement with the receiver, which takes more effort than simply retracting a rotating head bolt.) The hole in the G3 charging handle is intended for clipping the carry sling into it to assist in working the bolt manually, if that tells you something. We used to use that feature a lot when shooting blanks, since they have a tendency to cycle unreliably.

Magazine changes are easy with the AK-style paddle release on a G3, but somewhat awkward and unergonomic on a HK91, which only has the button release on the right side of the magazine well.

All in all, it's a fine, sturdy and powerful rifle. I wouldn't drop $2000 on one, though...that kind of money can get you an AR *and* a DSA FAL. Their price has been blown out of proportion by the ban and the HK logo on the magwell, but they're not head and shoulders above the rest in any way.

Fatelvis
March 27, 2003, 05:40 PM
Handy, you said something like a match ready M1A would run about 2000, right? Well, around here, a 91 in excellent/new condition is 2000+. I would bet you a dollar to a doughnut that M1A will make that 91 look silly in the accuracy dept! Why would you buy a FORIEGN rifle, with relatively crappy sights, from stamped steel, that throws unreloadable brass, for the same money that you can have a match ready M1A? :confused: (Just trying to get your dander up!) :D

Handy
March 27, 2003, 05:50 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all the .308 battle rifles (M14, Fal, G3) about 9.5 lbs? The site I could find just now listed the FAL at 4.45 Kilos, the BM-59 at 4.4 and the G3 at 4.5.

Is there a rifle of this type that isn't "heavy"?

AK103K
March 27, 2003, 05:58 PM
Nope, not to the wuss's around today. Now to a farm boy, it probably aint to heavy.:D
I find it entertaing to watch people who only learned to shoot on the 223 try to shoot the "older" rifles. All they bitch about is how much they kick and how heavy they are.

Handy
March 27, 2003, 06:06 PM
Dear Fat,

Well, my preban Greek rifle cost $1200 (and I bought it by selling the previous $860 postban one for $1200) , so all of this seems a little ridiculous.

Mainly, I was pointing out that the price difference is not the $1000 most people throw around. I've been reading quite a bit lately of the problems encountered with new M1A's. How much does your $1200 rifle cost after you've replaced all the cast parts?

On to your other points, the average excellent + condition HK91 is $2200, a price that reflects both value and the fact that there are no more coming in, and haven't been for 14 years. But I listed several cheaper alternatives.

I prefer strong, dimensionally perfect sheetmetal receiver stampings to imperfectly machined castings. But you can always spend $600 on a forged Enterprise M14 receiver. I don't see the point on this one. This is not a question of how best to spend $2000, its a question of what you're getting should you choose the HK.

You can reload G3 brass. Someone is lying to you if they say you can't. The lines on the brass are burn marks, not scoring. A port buffer helps, too, but isn't a requirement.

The sights aren't crappy, they just aren't target sights, which is what the M14 has. The G3 sight system can be used very precisely without much trouble, and is a FASTER sight system, which actually kind of matters on the battlefield, or hunting.

Like I said, this is a question of what you want and what you are getting. The Glock is proof enough that people don't actually care about the production value, just the end product. The HK91 is a great product. If you don't like the price, why aren't you shooting a Savage .308 bolt gun? That's value.

(Breeze carries cloud of dander away.)

AK103K
March 27, 2003, 06:13 PM
If you don't like the price, why aren't you shooting a Savage .308 bolt gun?
Dont pick on the lowly Savage now!:)
My cheapo Savage Scout w/Leupold Scout scope, will out shoot any of the M1A's, HK's, FAL's, etc that I've ever had.

Handy
March 27, 2003, 06:25 PM
Not picking on the Savage!

The Savage bolt is truly an excellent way to spend little money and get an accurate, stong and reliable rifle. The Scout thing is particularly cool.

Fatelvis
March 27, 2003, 07:35 PM
Handy, just to correct you- Those arent burn marks on the brass, they`re permenent scores, made by the 91`s fluted chamber. I know, I HAD a 91 (and sold it, when they were $850 :cuss: ) Even after tumbling, they`re there. Just had to tell ya.

Hkmp5sd
March 27, 2003, 09:16 PM
Remember two (possible) upcoming events. First, the end of the AW ban next year. Second, the rumor that Hk is going to build a plant in the US to get around import restrictions.

If that happens, may be able to get an actual HK for less money than a current pre-ban.

Gewehr98
March 27, 2003, 09:46 PM
1. It's black
2. Pre-ban telescoping stock.
3. It's black
4. Hi-Cap magazines are available.
5. It's black
6. Pistol grip, an evil feature since 1994.
7. It's black
8. .308, so it's got plenty of whoop-***.
9. It's black
10. Brass flies really far and fast without the port buffer.
11. It's black
12. Fluted chamber makes striations on the brass, so you're reloading can suffer, assuming the rims don't get torn off before then... (One reason I sold mine, those weren't just burn marks, Handy)
13. It's black
14. Recoil was sharper than a M14 or FAL (Other reason I sold mine)
15. It's black, and made by HK, a Skunkabilly wet-dream, as it were!

Schuey2002
March 27, 2003, 10:04 PM
I bet he picks up an AR-15 with the Horsey on it before he buys a HK91..:)

Redlg155
March 27, 2003, 11:10 PM
Time to eat your Tactical Wheaties..

Wanna shoot a big rifle? Don't worry Skunk. Just come down to sunny Florida and I'll get you on the Redleg "beef up " program! :D

I will admit they are nice rifles. The price I couldn't handle. Now those DSA rifles are another matter....

I'd just get a CETME and call it even. :D

Good Shooting
Red

AK103K
March 28, 2003, 04:28 AM
Handy, just to correct you- Those arent burn marks on the brass, they`re permenent scores, made by the 91`s fluted chamber. I know, I HAD a 91 (and sold it, when they were $850 ) Even after tumbling, they`re there. Just had to tell ya.
This isnt exactly correct. Mostly its soot on the case. Some cases will have a scratch or two, but most were gone when tumbled, at least with the stuff I was shooting and my guns. The only brass I wasnt able to reload out of a HK gun was IMI "black tip" carbine ammo in 9mm. It actually started fireforming the flutes in the brass out of my MP5. If you have a port buffer on the 91, there really is no damage to the brass, other than an ocasional scratch, and the brass is easily reloaded.

clown714
March 28, 2003, 08:23 AM
everything aside

no bolt hold open on the last shot:mad:

besides that,it's a fine rifle:)

clown

Gewehr98
March 28, 2003, 09:20 AM
This isnt exactly correct. Mostly its soot on the case. Some cases will have a scratch or two, but most were gone when tumbled, at least with the stuff I was shooting and my guns. The only brass I wasnt able to reload out of a HK gun was IMI "black tip" carbine ammo in 9mm. It actually started fireforming the flutes in the brass out of my MP5. If you have a port buffer on the 91, there really is no damage to the brass, other than an ocasional scratch, and the brass is easily reloaded.

I'll have to fire up the trusty digicam, because after I tumbled my HK-91 brass, (Lapua stuff no less) those flutes were most assuredly permanent on the surface of the brass, verified both visibly, with thumbnail, and with vernier micrometer. They came out of the tumbler as shiny brass with shiny flutes. These weren't sooper-dooper +P loads, they're the same 168gr stuff I run in my M14NM, BM-59, and 700PSS. I even resized some and reloaded them, so I could iron them out in the 700PSS. Didn't help much. So if I get another HK-91 or CETME, it's gonna be fed stuff that I don't really care to reload again, or I'll break into my stash of TZZ or Venezuelan .308 stuff. :(

DrDremel
March 28, 2003, 10:28 AM
I had an HK91 before the ban in 94. I paid 650 for it. It was not worth the 650 I paid for it. The gun is very front heavy, the ergonomics are not very good. The mag catch is the hardest to reach on any semi-auto I have ever held. The cocking handle is not easy to reach especially prone or with gloves. The safety cannot be reached easily for most people without monkey fingers. The rear sight is the worst ever designed for a military rifle because the drum is tilted away from the shooter in a position that allows light to reflect off of the drum and into the shooters eyes. The firearm dings brass. There is no hold open. Parts and accessories are way over priced. You can buy a whole firearm for the price of some accessories. I also had a friend that was issued a PSG-1 and had a lot of experience shooting it. I was not impressed for that kind of money. If you want an HK, get a clone as they are cheap right now, more in line with what they should cost. Were it not for the number of registered sears and trigger packs in full auto, they would be a lot less than their current prices. I am not an HK hater, just not a fan of their roller lock series of firearms. I sometimes think Hollywood owns HK stock or something the way they portray their firearms. Oh and their customer service sucks. They treat their civilian customers like crap.

Fatelvis
March 28, 2003, 10:38 AM
Thanx for backin` me up Gewehr, I thought maybe my memory was `aslippin!

jthuang
March 28, 2003, 04:44 PM
Skunk, the HK91 is not a good gun, ergonomically, for people with small hands. My buddy has a 91. I've fired it on several occasions. I cannot reach the mag release, nor the safety, without shifting my grip. Depending on how your hands measure up, you may be in the same situation.

IMHO a gun that does not fit the shooter is like clothes that don't fit the person -- next to useless, unless in a closet somewhere. Suggest you pass on the HK91 and spend the money on something else.

Justin

AK103K
March 28, 2003, 05:08 PM
Gewehr98,
I'm not saying you dont have brass with scratches, I'm just saying it isnt something that happens with all HK91's, or all of any of the other HK's for that matter. It may well be that your chamber is rougher than mine were. I've never had any trouble reloading the brass from my 91, or standard pressure 9mm from my MP5. I've shot all types of ammo from all of my guns, and the only ones I encountered "damage" to the brass with was the IMI 9mm stuff. Even the 9mm is more soot than scratches. They all are very dirty shooters and are a pain to clean.

hksw
March 28, 2003, 05:09 PM
If you are not sure, try a CETME. It'll at least give you a good idea what to expect in operation and maybe recoil characteristics (off hand since you've tried bench)[My CETME seems to recoil (felt) a little less than my 91, but the HK does have an A3 stock on it.]. Plus, at $300, much more affordable.

Gewehr98
March 28, 2003, 06:47 PM
I like to think I know what scratches are. I get them in my eyeglass lenses, on my watch crystal, in the stock of a gun I just spent too long refinishing, on my legs from my wife's toenails in bed, and on brass that gets dropped and scraped on a concrete floor.

What I'm talking about are the striations that conform to the chamber flutes of HK delayed-blowback rifles, and CETME's. They are physically a couple thousandth's of an inch above the rest of the case body, adding an interesting raised texture to the case around it's circumference. It happened on Lapua, Cavim, Winchester, and Lake City brass. When I get stateside, I'll scan in the examples I saved.

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