[David]

http://today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2005-09-02T030459Z_01_N01575002_RTRIDST_0_WEATHER-KATRINA-KILL.XML

La. governor warns troops will "shoot and kill"

Thu Sep 1, 2005 11:05 PM ET

BATON ROUGE, La., Sept 1 (Reuters) - Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco warned rioters and looters in New Orleans on Thursday that National Guard troops are under her orders to "shoot and kill" to end the rampant violence in the city in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Announcing the arrival of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops in New Orleans fresh from service in Iraq, Blanco said, "these troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded."

"These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will," she said.

U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, a Democrat, said as many as 100 people in his district southeast of New Orleans have died as a by-product of the violence that has gripped the city after Katrina slammed into the region on Monday, causing massive flooding.

Those who died, Melancon said, had been waiting at a warehouse pier along the Mississippi River in Chalmette, Louisiana, to be picked up for evacuation. They had received little food and no water since Monday or Tuesday.

"They were afraid they would have to go through New Orleans (to deliver the supplies)," Melancon said.

Melancon said some of those waiting for pickup died of dehydration in the 90-degree heat that has afflicted the region since Tuesday.

Despair is also affecting those in New Orleans charged with protecting the city, said State Police Superintendent Col. H.L. Whitehorn.

Some New Orleans police officers have resigned rather than face the violence in the city.

"It's my understanding those who have resigned said they have lost everything and it's not worth being shot at and losing their lives," Whitehorn said.

Whitehorn said he did not know the specific number of police officers who have quit their jobs.
******
:what: :scrutiny: :what:

[denfoote]

'Bout damn time!!

[Nightcrawler]

Shooting looters on sight is a time-tested method of stopping looting here in the US. I believe they ordered that during the LA riots, and I know they did during the 1960s Detroit riots.

Frankly, I see looting as akin to grave-robbing, and have no sympathy for the people doing it.

Now, the authorities must be careful to avoid injuring bystanders, obviously. The lack of due process is indeed unsettling, but it's the wild west in New Orleans now.

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd hear of people shooting at Coast Guard helicopters trying to help them. :scrutiny:

[LAK]

Announcing the arrival of 300 Arkansas National Guard troops in New Orleans fresh from service in Iraq, Blanco said, "these troops are battle-tested. They have M-16s and are locked and loaded."
300?

I am sure they are, "battle tested". So are alot of people - in one shape or form or another. And if the thugs in New Orleans have been shooting at cops, raping and pillaging, raiding gunshps etc; I don't think 300 ANG and going to turn them into fearful peasants. Even if they are "unlucky" enough to run into a few of them among the many - many - square miles of the city and it's outskirts.

Beats me why Blanco didn't declare a state of emergency the minute she received word that the water had broken through, and mobilized and deployed the entire Louisiana National Guard from the getgo.

... Or perhaps it doesn't.
--------------------------------------------
"Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV the families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed homes." - Dr. Paul Craig Roberts

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

[Ryder]

FEMA director said earlier tonight on the news they were pre-positioned for rescues before the storm hit but they had to wait for it to be safe to enter the city. For some reason it never occurred to me they'd blame the deaths of those who perish from dehydration on their fear of guns. He said they began to entering the city right after the storm but retreated.

[BigBink]

Feel good fluff for the news media!!!

Who the hell is she talking to? There are no communications or media in New Orleans. These people might be stealing TVs but they can't turn them on and listen to her!

[PCGS65]

Shoot to kill for looting and raping great idea! These people looting and raping have to be one form of low life or another. Besides what are they going to do with the things they steal? Sell them? There's no money! Trade the items for food/drinkable water? From what I heard there's no food/water either so lets shoot them. After all they are shooting people who are coming to help them! I'll send a donation for ammo. I just hope they don't start shooting people who are caught for stealing in other parts of the country.

[Sleeping Dog]

Has any NG shot and killed a looter yet? Does the NG have ammo for their small arms? Is any layer of NG leadership stepping in to temper the governor's "order"?

shoot and kill sounds easy enough, but in three months, the media will trot out some video of an NG killing a looter and trials will start. Some of those looters are "children", 19, 20 years old.

[lawson4]

It will be an even bigger field day for the media if one of the looters that is killed is an 18-19 year old - another "child" victim of gun violence. :mad:

lawson4

[LaEscopeta]

Louisiana state law is based on the Napoleonic code (left over from when it was a French colony) so it might be different from other states’ law, based on English Common Law. But most places in the US have a “riot act.” If the public official responsible for public safety (governor, mayor, police chief, etc) determines civil order has broken down, they authorize the security forces (police, militia, National Guard, etc) to read the riot act to the disorderly crowd, telling them to disperse and return to their homes or they will be shot. After a reasonable amount of time for the crowd to start leaving the security forces can start shooting, even if they are not in fear for their lives. Anyone one killed, weather real rioter, looter, or innocent by-standing is justifiable homicide. I don’t think the rioters, etc necessarily have to be armed to enable the riot to be enforced. Security forces have to re-read the riot act each time they encounter an unruly crowd.

[ceetee]

The Guardsmen definitely are armed. I just read a story in which a Guardsman was shot in the leg as he fought with a man that was trying to steal his rifle.

[RTFM]

Who cares? These bums are the dregs of society, they are leeches.
Shoot em.

[Model520Fan]

If the public official responsible for public safety (governor, mayor, police chief, etc) determines civil order has broken down, they authorize the security forces (police, militia, National Guard, etc) to read the riot act to the disorderly crowd, telling them to disperse and return to their homes or they will be shot.

?? What does this have to do with New Orleans?

[HankB]

After Martin Luther King was shot, rioting broke out in many major cities. Much of Detroit burned. In Chicago, Hizzoner Da Mayor Richard J. Daley (father of the current mayor) issued a public order: shoot to kill arsonists, shoot to maim looters.

The rioting and looting STOPPED immediately.

IIRC, there was another disaster (Jonestown flood?? Not sure about that . . . ) where looting broke out, and the governor immediately issued a "shoot" order which stopped the looting right away.

In each case, the usual activist suspects screamed bloody murder, but when they saw the public wasn't with them, they went away.

The only thing wrong with Gov. Blanco's order is that it comes a couple of days too late.

[Sleeping Dog]

The only thing wrong with Gov. Blanco's order is that it comes a couple of days too late.

And the order may not be followed.

Would you shoot a mother carrying bottles of water and maybe a game-boy out of a store?

Would you shoot a uniformed cop carrying DVD players?

Would you shoot anyone if you were encumbered with an "embedded photojournalist"?

[Ed]

LAK said "300?

I am sure they are, "battle tested". So are alot of people - in one shape or form or another. And if the thugs in New Orleans have been shooting at cops, raping and pillaging, raiding gunshps etc; I don't think 300 ANG and going to turn them into fearful peasants."

You missed the important info. It said they were from ARKANSAS. 300 of us will help.

[Dionysusigma]

Would you shoot a mother carrying bottles of water and maybe a game-boy out of a store?

Would you shoot a uniformed cop carrying DVD players?

Would you shoot anyone if you were encumbered with an "embedded photojournalist"?
1) I'd shoot the GBA, but not the mother.

2) Unquestionably and without hesitation. Especially if they're in uniform. They're supposed to be examples of order and compliance--Law Enforcement Officer. Now, they'll still be examples, but rather examples of what happens when you break the law.

3) Why would that be an issue?

[Janitor]

You missed the important info. It said they were from ARKANSAS. 300 of us will help.
:)

No doubt of it. But while 300 of you could help, 3000 could do a LOT more.

[Cpl Punishment]

And the order may not be followed.

Would you shoot a mother carrying bottles of water and maybe a game-boy out of a store?
No

Would you shoot a uniformed cop carrying DVD players?
yes

Would you shoot anyone if you were encumbered with an "embedded photojournalist"?
You mean besides the journalist?

[Chrontius]

At this point, very little. That law wasn't meant to deal with the sort of Mad Max scenario that's going on down there.

Honestly, I think that if it came to that, the 300 MPs would lose.

[GunGoBoom]

Hmm, first off, if they had "little food and no water", it demonstrates how little people are educated about survival. You NEVER eat ANYTHING when you are low on or without water, because digesting uses a lot of water, and makes dehydration worse. More would have survived if they would have refrained from eating - gotten rid of the temptation of food. In fact, judging by the size of the majority of the refugees, a large percentage of them would have been able to go 2 or 3 weeks without food. But NO ONE can last more than 2-3 DAYS without water.

Second, however much I may despise looting, I think that it is un-American to shoot on sight, without trial, *particularly* if the looters are stealing water, food, or medicine to survive. It's a whole different story if a *homeowner* or business-owner shoot a looter to protect their own stash of necessities. But for the gov't to instruct gov't agents to execute on sight of a crime is wrong and unconstitutional, even under Martial law, if I'm not mistaken. At least the governor here has the guts & gumption to expressly take responsibility for the instructions, so that we know who's to blame if she's wrong (unlike the feds dumping blame on the individuals, Horiuchi-style).

[mrming]

The looting intent may be a bit more organized. I'd be surprised if some of the larger illegal elements arent arranging transport for the stolen goods out of NO. After all, we are talking at least a half-billion in resellable goods that are avaliable for the 5-finger discount.

I'd be more concerned about just how large the hard-core element is. It could easily convert into NG vs embedded local gangs, with starving non-combantants stuck in the middle. With the current number of feet on the ground, the NG could be badly outnumbered..

[Stauffenberg]

Mrming raises a scary proposition, but nonetheless a credible one. You can always count on the more organized criminal elements to make the worst of an already bad situation, if you follow me.

From what I see, the facts are fairly simple. There's a serious loss of law and order in New Orleans; that is to say, there isn't any. Looters are roaming the streets almost totally unopposed, and thanks to the local sporting goods stores, they're now armed. The situation in New Orleans amounts to an armed insurgency against civilization itself, and what's more, the brigands appear to be fanning out from the city and bringing chaos with them. My thoughts:

- Quit the half-measures. We need as many NG troops as on the ground in New Orleans as we can safely put there without damaging the nation's military readiness. If some end up being unnecessary, fine, whatever, we can pull them out later. People are dying here, and our country is looking utterly ridiculous to the outside world.

- Gun owners in New Orleans have the right idea - defend yourselves, extend your little bubble of order if you can, but basically focus on keeping yourselves and your businesses safe. I've read about five different articles about this Art Depodesta chap roaming the streets with his shotgun. Art, if you're reading this, I like where your head's at, bro.

- Why in hell are people still starving and dehydrating at the Superdome and the convention center? We can put 100,000+ soldiers on the other side of the planet and keep them supplied almost indefinitely, but we can't put food and water in Louisiana? The level of incompetence we've seen in response to the situation is simply stunning. Is it really such a surprise that a Category 5 hurricane can shake civilization loose from its moorings?

[Hawkmoon]

Is any layer of NG leadership stepping in to temper the governor's "order"?
Unless these NG have been Federalized and are operating under the Pentagon/President chain of command, the governor is the commander-in-chief of the state's national guard. If she sets the rules of engagement as "shoot to kill," any intermediate "layer of NG leadership" that attempts to countermand that order is guilty of mutiny and should be dealt with accordingly.

[MikeIsaj]

I am sure they are, "battle tested". So are alot of people - in one shape or form or another. And if the thugs in New Orleans have been shooting at cops, raping and pillaging, raiding gunshps etc; I don't think 300 ANG and going to turn them into fearful peasants."Nothing these thugs have learned in their lives prepares them to go up against 300 battle tested, hardened troops. They will be out thought, out maneuvered, out gunned and out killed. Three hundred is more than enough because history tells us that the disorder will stop when the shooting starts. These animals are thugs taking advantage of an opportunity that is not worth dying for. They are preying on the weak and helpless. They will not stand long against a superior force.

[MinScout]

I must say, I'm not too impressed with the LA NG troops I just saw on Fox News. Unshaven and out of uniform. (one guy even had a nike cap on). They don't seem to represent "order" to me. They look like an armed rabble.

[LaEscopeta]

…telling them to disperse and return to their homes or they will be shot.

?? What does this have to do with New Orleans?
Good point. I’m not sure if Louisiana state law says “return to your homes” or “leave the streets” or what. But if any of this makes it to a court, I’m sure the argument will be the intent of the law is citizens should have followed the mandatory evacuation order and either left the city or gone to the designated shelters (like the swelter dome.) Anyone (looters, rioters, etc) and not obeying the order to leave the city or go to a shelter is liable to be shot, and shot legally, once the riot act is read to them.

The point is I’m pretty sure neither the Governor of Louisiana nor the Mayor of New Orleans has the authority to issue a simple “shoot on sight” order. I’m not saying they didn’t issue such an order (or that other governors/mayors didn’t issue such orders in the past.) I’m just saying such orders are illegal.

Just like it is illegal for anyone but the President to declare martial law.

A few links with more info/examples:

http://partysmart.osu.edu/otherlaws.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_act
http://www.thelawencyclopedia.com/term/martial_law
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002101----000-.html
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2004/272.html
http://www.may4.org/4.html
http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/voices/200308/0829riot.html

...any intermediate "layer of NG leadership" that attempts to countermand that order is guilty of mutiny and should be dealt with accordingly.
I believe U.S. military law requires officers to disobey any un-lawful order. Enlisted personal are required to obey all orders, weather lawful or not. If I’m wrong on this, I’m sure someone with more knowledge/experience than me will correct me.

[simon]

Some of those looters are "children", 19, 20 years old.

Maybe its just me, but I don't consider anyone 19,20years old "children".
They know right from wrong, and if they choose to do wrong they must be made to suffer the consequences.
Asto the 3 above questions;
No
Yes
Depends on the current situation

[Sleeping Dog]

but I don't consider anyone 19,20years old "children".

Yeah, well, shoot one and see how quick the media and gun-control folks label them "children", "innocents", and "darling victims". Shot with a bad, bad, gun and then crushed under the tv set they were carrying. :rolleyes:

Regards.

[dpesec]

MinScout I saw that too, I almost didn't believe it. Since he was in teh background and was talking to the soldier speaking (I didn't get his rank) I wonder if the nike cap guy was some sort of Armored vehicle driver. He might not have had a standard cover. I guessing, i'd like to give these folks the benefit of the doubt, but either way the scum is crawling back into the sewers.

Just saw that clip again, that NG soldier had his MOLIE and the brown undershirt. The rest of the unit was atired properly. Strange.

[mrming]

Nothing these thugs have learned in their lives prepares them to go up against 300 battle tested, hardened troops. They will be out thought, out maneuvered, out gunned and out killed. Three hundred is more than enough because history tells us that the disorder will stop when the shooting starts. These animals are thugs taking advantage of an opportunity that is not worth dying for. They are preying on the weak and helpless. They will not stand long against a superior force.


Sure. Thats what Custard thought too, among others.


Lets try this again. NO has a theives guild several thousand strong, and are now sitting as the only avaliable fences for pushing a half billion in untraceable goods. NG is stationed to keep order at the evac points Only. Police are trying to restore order, but are making a mess of it. NO police are as crooked as they come. Many of the people fencing things at this point don't want money, they just want out.

Can you honestly tell me that outnumbered at least one hundred to one, without their usual artillery or airsupport, that an organized group of illegals can't fight a reasonable delaying action? Hell, the mofia did it for us in Italy in WWII. This isn't a new concept, They've got plenty of motivation, namely their share in a half billion. All they have to do is stall long enough to find enough boats and trucks to haul the goods out.

[Monkeyleg]

"Thats what Custard thought too, among others."

I think you're referring to General Custer.

If you're referring to General Custard's, that's a great burger stand on South 13th Street in Milwaukee. Great big buttery burgers, and malts made with real custard.

Dang, I'm hungry right now!

[joab]

Yeah, well, shoot one and see how quick the media and gun-control folks label them "children", "innocents", and "darling victims". Shot with a bad, bad, gun and then crushed under the tv set they were carrying.And the continuous loop of the grieving mother
"Oh my Gawd He was a good boy. he just hongry, and them police they shot him like a dawg and put them Nikes and TVs on him to cover up.
And he didn't rape nobody, that 12 year old hussy was given it up to ere body at her church."
Or words to that effect

[mrming]

I think you're referring to General Custer.


quite right. I really should cut back from working 14 hour days.

[Stauffenberg]

"If you're referring to General Custard's, that's a great burger stand on South 13th Street in Milwaukee. Great big buttery burgers, and malts made with real custard."

HA!

I used to eat there all the time when I was a kid. Thanks for the memories, monkeyleg. :cool:

[magsnubby]

GUN SHIPS!!!WE NEED GUN SHIPS!!!

[Standing Wolf]

Maybe the governor should offer free welfare checks to those who show up, sit down, shut up, and behave themselves.

It's never worked in the past, of course, but...

[BlkLtng02]

GUN SHIPS!!!WE NEED GUN SHIPS!!!

Yeah bring in Puff The Magic Dragon!! Why didn't I think of that!! Brilliant!! I don't think that would go over to well on CNN though.

[magsnubby]

That would answer the question "Where's the gov'ment? Why ain't they doing somethin"?

[Hawkmoon]

I believe U.S. military law requires officers to disobey any un-lawful order. Enlisted personal are required to obey all orders, weather lawful or not. If I’m wrong on this, I’m sure someone with more knowledge/experience than me will correct me.
I am not certain enough to state outright that you're wrong, but I do believe you are mistaken. I don't think the UCMJ makes any distinction between officers and enlisted personnale -- I believe all members of the military are required to not carry out unlawful orders.

The problem is that, although this is what the UCMJ says, at least when I went through Basic Training in the Vietnam era that's not the way it was being taught. Plus -- especially for an EM -- if you're going to disobey an unlawful order, you'd better make damned certain that it's an unlawful order.