[Drizzt]

Norway shoots least

A major survey of police weapon use in the Nordic region shows that Norway is the country where shots are most seldom fired, and that access to weapons means more shooting.

Professor Johannes Knutsson at the Police Academy said the report confirms what police leadership have always maintained, that easier access to weapons means more shooting.

The survey shows that, adjusted for population, shots are fired 13 times as often as in Norway and the number killed is ten times higher.

In dangerous situations Norwegian police pull back, request arms and wait for reinforcements. Swedish police are far more often placed in self-defense situations where shots are fired under extreme stress and from close range. This results in one out of three policemen injured by gunfire in Sweden being hit by friendly fire.

Knutsson concludes that Norway's procedure is reasonable and should continue.

An MMI survey of Norwegian police last year found that over half favored being permanently armed, but at the national congress of police unions there was a unanimous vote to remain unarmed.

"This survey shows an enormous difference between countries. True, there are still some difference in the crime picture between these countries, but this is nowhere near large enough to explain such a gap," said Arne Johannesen, head of the Federation of Police Unions.

"If we are to preserve this statistic we must put more into training on how one solves situations without weapons, because this is demanding. It needs more personnel and, not least, it requires more tactical and strategic thinking," Johannesen said.

Nordic police weapons
SWEDEN: No Nordic nation shoots or kills more often. Armed since 1965, with Sig Sauer 9mm pistol and MP-5 machine pistol and expanding ammunition.

FINLAND: The Finns have greatly reduced weapon use in recent years. Armed since 1918. Use Glock 9mm pistol, Smith & Wesson 38 revolver, MP-5 machine pistol and expanding ammunition. Shotgun access.

DENMARK: Armed since 1965 after four officers killed in one incident. Use H&K 9mm pistol, MP-5 machine pistol and non-expanding ammunition.

NORWAY: The only nation with unarmed police. Police arm on orders of the police commissioner, and then with S&W 38 revolver or MP-5 machine pistol, and non-expanding ammunition. Strong movement to arm permanently, but police leadership believe arming will lead to dangerous situations more often.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1106865.ece

[Gunpacker]

Sounds like norway subscribes the the Columbine strategy for law enforcement. Sweden on the other hand has more agressive law enforcement, probably with law enforcement officers entering scenes where citizens are in immediate danger. I have spent time in law enforcement, and the only waiting for reinforcements that I saw was for another officer to watch your back when such reinforcement was quickly available. There were a few exceptions, such as occasions where scenes had to be surrounded because to enter would actually place lives of civilians in danger. Many times officers go into situations where they are outnumbered and the only reinforcement is their firearm.
Is it surprising that no guns means less shooting? :confused:

[mbs357]

It's common sense that zero guns in country equals zero gun crime.
But what about the other crimes?

[mete]

Norway has seen an increase in the organized crime by armed gangs that roam Europe and an increase in terrorism like active Al Qaeda groups. They better not fall asleep. A Columbine or Beslan situation requires immediate action not waiting.

[HankB]

Sounds like norway subscribes the the Columbine strategy for law enforcement. Stay safe and move in after the bodies cool?

I wonder about demographics in these countries . . .

[Pawcatch]

Well,Norway has consistently had one of the lowest homicide rates in the world(0.8 per 100,000 people in 1996),so I think that they're doing something right.
www.haciendapub.com/stolinsky.html

[c_yeager]

Well,Norway has consistently had one of the lowest homicide rates in the world(0.8 per 100,000 people in 1996),so I think that they're doing something right.

A completely homogenous culture sure doesnt hurt. Whats the immigration rate like in Norway?

[antsi]

Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

Put unarmed cops into an unusually low-crime area, and you get a low incidence of police shooting people.

Put armed cops into a high crime area, and you are get a high incidence of police shooting people.

That does not mean that arming the cops is the causative agent in the incidence of police shootings.

Interesting experiment: bring the wonderful nonconfrontational nonviolent Norweigan anger-management love police to Chicago and put them on patrol on the South Side. Anyone want to bet that the Norweigan love-cops would be able to pacify a high crime area with their enlightened attitudes and peaceful auras?

[mete]

Norway has had immigration problems that go back many years especially Pakistanis.That's why I said they have active Al Qaeda groups !!! Like all good socialist countries Norway felt it had to take in large numbers from third world countries.

[Mannlicher]

This is changing. As the Muslim percentage of the population climbs, so has crime. I have friends in Trondheim, Moss, and Oslo, and they all see a changes 'a coming.

[XLMiguel]

Intuitively, this is a dumb strategy. One doesn't always have the luxury of falling back and calling for the cavalry. It's better to be prepared, i.e. better to have and not need, etc., but it's hard to get that across to people who don't see much violent crime in their society. Change can be so rude . . .

[GunGoBoom]

An MMI survey of Norwegian police last year found that over half favored being permanently armed, but at the national congress of police unions there was a unanimous vote to remain unarmed.

Why doesn't that surprise me? The rank and file officers want to be armed, yet the unions who are supposed to represent them vote against it. :rolleyes:

[jefnvk]

Probably doesn't hurt that the population of the entire country is less than many big cities here. 4.5 Mil, according to the World Factbook. Half the population size of Michigan.

Police in the country in Montana, or the Dakotas, or Northern Alaska, or some other widely unpopulated areas could probably go unarmed too.

[Drizzt]

Police in the country in Montana, or the Dakotas, or Northern Alaska, or some other widely unpopulated areas could probably go unarmed too.

Maybe, but for most of them, it's not the people they're worried about. I don't think even a Norwegian could talk down a grizzly.

[M67]

We're not quite as naïve as you think. As long as crime levels are as low as they are, it works. If, or perhaps rather when, things change, our police can be armed over night with the stroke of a pen. This is an administrative thing, it doesn't take an amendment to the constitution, or even new laws, to change things. All officers have firearms training, probably as good as in most countries and better than some. What I'm saying is that they're just as lousy at handling guns as most other coppers in the world. But they do have training and annual qualifications - and access to guns even if they don't carry them around all day.

Personally I don't feel very strongly one way or the other. Part of me likes the idea that the police is not armed. They are after all public servants, not some ruling elite or "warrior class" - those who believe that either live in a police state or wish they did. If the police need guns to protect themselves while doing their job, they should be armed. If they don't need guns in their day to day work, they should not IMO be armed just because they're the police. Law enforcement should be nonviolent, except in very extraordinary circumstances. Your FBI was unarmed in its infancy, wasn't it? Until they found it didn't work. Here it still works, most of the time. The rest of the time the police bring guns.

Norwegian police officers are by no means perfect, but they are pretty good at their job for the most part. Did you know the police academy in this country is a three year college level education? That doesn't automatically make them good at their job, but they're not minimum wage mall ninjas either.
It's common sense that zero guns in country equals zero gun crime. I think the number of guns per capita is the third of fourth highest in the world, not that far behind the US. There just isn't much crime.

As mete and Mannlicher say, change may be on its way, probably is on its way. Although the part about active al-Qaeda groups is news to me. No offence mete, but if you really think we would knowingly let that happen, you need a reality check. Heck, we're on al-Qaeda's VIP-list; the only four countries spcfically mentioned as targets are the US, the UK, Australia and Norway. We may be all about non-confrontational peace and love, but Norwegian soldiers have killed way too many al-Qaeda for them to love us. If there are any active groups here, the first thing you'll hear about that will probably be that they carried out some act of terrorism.

We're a small country with one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Our system works, for the time being. It probably wouldn't work most other places in the world, but that's hardly our fault.

[Stand_Watie]

Personally I don't feel very strongly one way or the other. Part of me likes the idea that the police is not armed. They are after all public servants, not some ruling elite or "warrior class"

I agree with that thinking. If citizens of Norway were allowed to carry (as I think they should be) it'd be a different matter.

[Gunpacker]

M67, Norway is probably using what works well there. A society determines what ROE are for law enforcement. Some countries have more civilized criminals than others, and can set policies accordingly. I don't presume to judge, except that it was stated that in some situations, police wait for guns and reinforcements. Not sure how often that happens. Here in the US, many officers will never draw their gun in the line of duty, but if they need them, they are immediately available. Many more would need them however, if they were not carried. The presence of the officer's firearm or other defensive weapons makes a criminal think twice about attacking an officer.

[JohnKSa]

Here it still works, most of the time. The rest of the time the police bring guns.I'm sure our police would do the same if they could--we've just failed to master the knack of determining in advance when guns will be needed and when they won't. That's a pretty rare skill, and if you could have one of your cops post how it works on THR, I'm sure many of us would stop carrying guns for self-defense most of the time and only bring guns when they're needed.

[rudolf]

Get the atlantic ocean between Texas and Mexico :)

[LiquidTension]

...easier access to weapons means more shooting

Also, this just in: easier access to cars means more driving.

[mete]

It was reported that Al Qaeda has active cells in about 60 countries !! IIRC Norway was one of them. If there is a significant moslem population the potential is certainly there. Since Norway has now been specifically mentioned by AlQaeda - watch out.