Convoy tactics

[Hutch]

This was touched on in Preacherman's excellent stick post, but I'd like to hear from others who have BTDT. I have no experience with this, and my only information comes from Bruce Clayton's book Life After Doomsday (from the early '80s). IIRC, he recommends the following.

Leave at dawn. Most of the bad guys will be least active at this time.

First vehicle is the scout car, driven by a skillful driver, whose job it is to, well, scout the way. Don't engage the bad guys, just detect them, and radio back to the rest. It'd be good if the driver had experience in bootlegger turns, breaking contact, etc. and knew the local area. Second vehicle is the counter-ambush team. They remain in constant visual contact with the scout. If the scout springs a trap, then they are the rescue team. If the convoy is large enough, these vehicles should be distributed thru-out. Next come the "civilians" and chuck wagons. Again, if the convoy is large enough (and well equipped enough) then there should be an armed response team at the tailgate Charlie spot as well, in case of a hostile overtake.

The convoy will inch-worm along, as the scout reports clear sailing. If time does not permit this, then choose a constant, sustainable speed consistent with visibility and road conditions. Dont' bunch up, don't lose sight of the other vehicles, and let the scout stay far enough ahead to actually serve the purpose.

Okay, it's not a convoy, it's you and the wife and kids, single car, then what? The most skilled or resolute shooter rides ALONE, unbelted, in the back seat, armed as best possible (No long-barrel shotguns). The other spouse drives. Kids pile in the floorboard in co-pilot's position (I know this sucks, but it sucks worse to be hauled out of your car and stomped). Leave rear windows down far enough to get a muzzle out, but not so far down as to invite access from a malefactor. It'd be a great idea for the driver to have hearing protection on, all the time. Just in case you have to start busting caps a few inches from his/her ear.

Well, that's the revealed wisdom from the auther (not me), but I've never read anything else that even dealt with this. Any other ideas? I mean, besides, "Dear Lord, don't let it come to this".

[Preacherman]

A few points.

1. Have a means to communicate with all vehicles. Short-range radios are cheap, available everywhere, and work in line-of-sight. Agree on a channel to monitor.

2. Sun-roofs are great for shooters: also open pick-ups. These allow a 360° field of fire, and put the muzzle blast and noise out above the vehicle, making it less deafening for occupants.

3. Remember that convoy speed will ALWAYS be slower than normal speed for a single vehicle. A typical convoy (particularly of untrained civilians) will probably be lucky to maintain an average speed of 30-40 miles per hour: any faster will result in "accordion" convoys, stringing-out of vehicles, etc.

4. Make sure that essential supplies are distributed evenly throughout all vehicles. If your reserve fuel supply, or food, or whatever, are stored in only one or two vehicles, and you lose it/them (breakdown, ambush, whatever), you're SOL.

5. If possible, put vulnerable persons (mothers, children, etc.) in the best-protected positions in the convoy. If it's fired upon, it's likely to be lead or trail vehicles that take the most hits.

[DMK]

Not sure about going it alone except to review some of the reports from Iraq about what works well when shooting from inside a vehicle. A pistol, and small carbine with a folding stock probably works best (think AK with folding stock, if not an SBR). I'm torn between what type of vehicle that would be best. Something small, nimble, fast and fuel efficient or something big and four wheel drive that could crash through barriers and haul lots of stuff?

A motorcycle would make a good scout vehicle. and would be quick, nimble and fuel efficient enough to make a lot of sprints ahead and back again. Plus one can make a quick stop and take shots without dismounting. Again, a small carbine with a tac sling would probably work best.

Another lesson learned from Iraq is to be aware of Improvised Explosive Devices as convoy ambush starters.

[Derek Zeanah]

Referring back to my training, where I had the opportunity to lead a few brigade marches (defer to the Infantry enlisted and NCOs when the Armored officers have problems... :evil: )

1) Know where you're going. Study the map hard ahead of time, as the march itself is not the time to be making navigation decisions if you can avoid it.

2) Maintain a safe difference. 50m between vehicles was what we generally did -- far enough apart that a single blast wouldn't get 2 vehicles, but close enough to provide support via M2 .50 cals should contact be made. You might want to adjust this for your circumstances.

3) Have a plan for contact. What happens if you find you've driven into an ambush? Do you run? Do you charge in guns blazing? Do you try and turn around? Do you drive through it? Does the response matter on the type of ambush you spring? Plan ahead, practice it a few times "dry," and make sure everyone knows the plan.

4) Drive as fast as you safely can. In the service, this was generally something like 15mph, because the tracks wouldn't go much faster (25-30 MPH meant newly serviced running downhill).

5) Don't advertise your presense. This means LIGHTS OUT, if you can possibly drive at night, in the rain, without lights. If not, then get nods or something. Note that the folks behind you will need to see you, so attaching a dim light to the rear of each vehicle wouldn't be a bad idea. Unplug your brake lights, or stay off them as much as possible. Remember, brake and headlights are designed to be visible. If you're expecting contact, this is exactly what you DON'T want.

6) Radios are good. It'd be best if the lead vehicle can hear the trailing vehicle, and vice-versa. Handheld talkies are cheap, but they aren't great for vehicle-to-vehicle comms (ever tried to use a handheld CB on the road?) I'd suggest something like a CB with a magnetic mount (if not a permanent one), or at least an after-market antenna on your FRS/GRMS radio (buy one that'll take an external antenna).

7) Good ambush discipline is to let the lead vehicle through, then blow both ends of the ambush at both times to stop vehicles from driving back out. Figure out what to do, whether this is at all likely, and what to do just in case. Have a rally point in case things go to hell, make sure everyone knows it, and use code-names for them in case someone's listening in. Remember, we aren't allowed to use encrypted comms, and "the rally point is now blue-four" gives away less info than "OK, if things go to hell meet back behind that trashed Exxon a mile to our rear..."

8) Don't drive into anything unusual. If you run into a wreck, or a downed tree, or anything else that might be used as a way to funnel you into an ambush, you dismount and inspect/clear it on foot. Surprises = bad, and 4 men dismounted are a harder target to take out than a bunch of guys bottled up in a vehicle. Of course, this may be my bias as I always felt safer in a ditch than mounted in a 10' high coffin...

That's all I can come up with right now.

[Derek Zeanah]

Oh yeah -- walk throughs. They feel lame, but having everyone line up, pretend they're a vehicle, and work through scenarios until everyone is CLEARLY responding peoperly works really well. Even smart people can read back the response they're supposed to offer, but having pretended a few times seems to do more to keep everyone on the same page.

And everyone ought to have a map, if possible. And a fall-back frequency just in case. Hand signals are good too -- again, just in case.

[Derek Zeanah]

One more thought (cleaning house gives me time to think. Either that or (as my wife would assert) I look for any reason to take a break...)

Military vehicles have an interesting gadget to control lights -- one setting is for normal road driving, and another one controls "tactical" settings, like a single low-intensity red rear lamp, and a sliver of white light cast right in front of the driver to give some feeling for the terrain, without advertising to everyone.

You could do something similar with duct tape and aluminum foil if you wanted, so you'd have some light. Just limit it to 15-25 feet in front of you, and dim it as much as you can. Think almost dead old-style D-cell flashlight lighting, rather that surefire style.

[vrwc]

Make sure that all armed know their zone of engagement to prevent fraticide.

+1 on scout's

Don't bunch up, and punch through if meeting resistance, most likey you won't be facing people that know how to set a proper ambush they want you to stop so your transport /supplies can be taken keep moving a 5000lb truck puts someone down just as well as a 55 grain projectile

[NMshooter]

How about we look at this from the OPFOR view?

You want to stop the convoy. That is your first priority.

So you pick a spot in the road after a sharp turn and dig a trench all the way across deep and wide enough that oncoming vehicles will smash into the far wall of the trench.

Then you rig a mobile obstacle to close off the rear. Could be a vehicle, tree, rockslide, etc.

All along the sides of the kill zone you have camoflauged obstacles and fighting positions.

Now that you have your victims boxed in the rest should be obvious, just make sure you do not start any fires because you do not want to burn the loot.

So what would you do to prevent being caught in a trap like that?

[YammyMonkey]

Sounds like a motorcycle pre-scout would be a good way to prevent the above mentioned ambush. Quick to turn around, could be ridden a few miles ahead assuming you could maintain comms, and much harder to actually hit than a 4-wheeled vehicle. The mobility would also assist the rider(s) in quick peeking possible shooter hides. Maybe have 2 people on bikes up front, just in case something went bad 2 quick movers would be even harder to take out.

Riding a dirtbike would also allow you to scout around obstacles and find the most clear path should the caravan run into an impromptu ditch, rockslide or fallen tree. Wear a "bullet proof" vest under your chest protector just in case. A couple cans of Krylon might be handy to tone down the typical bright colors of dirtbike plastics.

Upon further thought, a pair of bikes a mile or so behind the convoy would be a good way to spot a group advancing from the rear which could signify an impending ambush up ahead. Use the vehicles in the convoy as radio repeaters since the bike riders probably wouldn't be in contact with each other unless you're using professional radios and are on relatively flat ground.

2 pair of bikes could also allow the riders to break away in case of an ambush, regroup 2-4 people strong and quickly counterattack from a position that would provide better cover/lanes of fire/etc. than being stuck in the road.

Keep in mind that regardless of what type of convoy you envision, comms are key, just like in ANY emergency situation, poor radio comms and poor comms discipline can undo a group faster than if there had been no radios.

[sacp81170a]

Then you also have the classic methods of .movement, traveling, traveling overwatch, and bounding overwatch. With vehicles this means separation of the lead elements from overwatch elements by no farther than support weapons can be effectively brought to bear, so it depends on your firepower. With AR and AK clones plus a scoped deer rifle this might be around 100 to 150 meters. I'm assuming BG's won't have anything heavier than this, but that's no guarantee.

Traveling uses the same forward element, same drag element and is the fastest method to move, with all elements staying at fairly close intervals but no less than 50 meters. Traveling is used when enemy contact is not expected. Traveling overwatch is slower, puts the lead element at max interval, and is used when enemy contact is possible. Bounding overwatch is used when enemy contact is expected. Lead element travels to max interval, takes a position of cover, and waits for trail element to move up, either to take their position or to the next position of cover to provide overwatch. These methods of movement would apply to the main body, with flankers and scouts at front and rear, preferably on dirt bikes.

Asssuming two or three vehicles, with no flankers, I would use traveling overwatch until I got to a suspicious looking area. Heavier vehicles are useful for breaking through obstacles, but consume large quantities of fuel you may not have. Ditto on scouting the route ahead of time and knowing where you're headed. Also have a plan for abandoning vehicles and redistributing loads or continuing on foot if necessary. In a TEOTWAWKI scenario, staying with a disabled vehicle may not be an option. Just some thoughts.

[Hutch]

sacp81170a, it almost sounded like your were trying to speak to me. What did any of that mean to those of us who don't have the lingo? :confused:

BTW, my initial interest was in trying to get us all some information about how to organize convoy of friends/neighbors/family thru relatively disorganized looters/thugs/badguys, not particularly about traveling thru partisan or guerilla-held territory. :what: to reinforce Fort Apache. I mean no disrespect to any poster, but hints/tips/tricks for us rubes would be helpful.

Editted to add: sacp81170a, we're nearly neighbors, I'm in Bentonville. Feel free to PM me.

[Jenrick]

Hmm well here's what comes to mind in general:

IAD (Immediate action drills): If nothing else scratch them in the dirt and talk about them. Just make sure everyone's on the same page. If Car A plans to accelerate through an ambush, and Car is planning to dismount and counterattack, well you've got some problems. Much better to walkthrough as already mentioned.

What If's: What if the vehicle stalls in the middle of an ambush/fight, what if we have a flat or a mechanical breakdown, what if it happens in an ambush/fight, etc. Talk them out and figure out a plan, WRITE THEM DOWN, if you've got the time it's great to have a plan you can look at. If you don't have time to look at it, well then don't ;) Some common answers to some common what ifs:

Stalled Vehicle in an Ambush/Fight: Put the vehicle in neutral and the next vehicle pushes it clear if possible.

Mechanical breakdown in the Clear: Get the vehicle off the road and into abit of cover if possible, then start working on it. Put out as much security as you can, and pay particular attention to ingress/approach routes (this may be the road you were on).

Decide if you’re willing to lose the vehicle, the vehicle and it's supplies, or you have to have it. Set up your security and personnel accordingly. If your prepared to ditch the vehicle but not the supplies, put your security out as far as you can safely to give you as much time to shift supplies as you can. However make sure you can get your security back in the convoy (leave no one behind!). If your prepared to ditch the vehicle and it's contents, then security can be a lot closer, since all you have to gather is the tools and your off (then again if your prepared to ditch it all, do you really need to attempt to fix it?).

Lastly if you have to have the vehicle and the supplies, go ahead and look for a defensible, unobtrusive setup. You may well be forced to fight a conventional engagement in defense of terrain.

Mechanical Breakdown under fire: Once again decide on how much you need the vehicles and it's supplies. If you don't care about either, put down as much suppressing/covering fire as you can, get everyone out of the vehicle and into another vehicle. Have all vehicles slow down to a crawl (2-3MPH), this will keep the ambush from fixing your position, and it keeps everyone in the fight.

If at all possible designate alternate vehicles ahead of time. If you take multiple loses in an engagement, go for whatever vehicle is handy and re-org later.

If you have to have the vehicle or supplies your best bet will be an immediate assault on the threat as cover while you attempt maintenance or shift supplies. Pack your tools, spares, parts LAST and MOST ACCESABLELY. Only weapons, ammo, med gear, and personnel bail out gear should be more accusable. You do not want everything piled on top of your spare if you’re going to try and beat the NASCAR record for tire change (while under fire).

Your specific situation and environment will provide you with a whole lot of other What If’s to worry about, but the above are some of the universals.

General good ideas:

Tow gear in place and ready to use on all vehicles ahead off time. This can everything from a couple of chains hooked to the tow hooks on the undercarriage and secure to the bumper/grill, to a pre-placed tow bar in the up position. Use field expedients as needed, a couple of pair of jeans twisted together can make an impromptu tow rig, etc. For the field expedient rigs, use them in an emergency, but swap them out to something heavier duty when you’re out of the emergency situation.

Perform as much maintenance on your vehicles before you head out. Check the tires, check and top of fluid, refill your windshield wiper reservoir, whatever needs to be done. As a quick note, fill your windshield wiper fluid with plain water, if you have to you can use it refill your radiator, you can’t use something with alcohol or ammonia to do that. Scrounge extra parts from any vehicles you won’t be taking. Take anything useful from them, spare tires, lug nuts, brake pads possibly, spare fluids, common parts (if they share the same rough model headlights etc.), far better to have it and not need it then the other way around.

Also acquire the best/heaviest duty tools you can find. Trying to change a tire on a fully loaded vehicle with the OEM jack may not be possible. A 5-ton hydraulic jack makes it a snap. A fully charged air tank pre-attached to an air wrench will dramatically decrease the amount of time it takes to change a tire (but make sure you’ve got a good lug wrench and cheater bar handy incase the air tank takes a round).

If practical and possible add some extra protection to your vehicles. Use as much as you practically can (extra weight impacts speed, fuel efficiency, and the load carrying capacity of the vehicle). Everything from sandbags and steel plate to old textbooks and wet newspaper can stop rounds (a 9mm round from about 7’ penetrated less then 1.25” in a hardcover chemistry book). Armor for the worst case you can. Protect the most sensitive/important areas first. In order I’d go: driver, passengers, engine, gas tank, other essential mechanical systems, cargo. People come first, then what makes the car run. Taking a live round in most modern gas tanks probably wont set off a fireball, though it may start a fire. Anything that will burst the tank/explode it will punch through most anything you can stick in front of it so why sweat it right? Losing your brakes or transmission is just about as bad as losing your engine, so protect it if you can.

If you have to worry about mines or other dangers from below a layer of wet sand (or sand bags if you have them, remember plastic shopping bags with sand are sang bags) can help reduce damage and keep fires/explosion damage contained. Another thing to consider would be attaching some sort of skid plate the under carriage of your vehicle, this prevents things from getting up in the undercarriage and ripping the guts out. You can buy them ahead of time, or fabricate yourself one out of scrap (another cars hood flatten out could work). Just consider you may need a cutting torch to get to the important stuff when your done.

Bail out gear. When it comes down to your person/loved ones or your gear, you and them come before everything, weapon included. You can beat someone to death with a piece of wreckage from your vehicle to get another weapon if need be. However good packing and planning can make it a lot easier to get supplies out with you. Your weapon and ammo should already be attached to you in some form or fashion (heck a spare mag in a jeans pocket, and a shoelace sling work), next have basic life supporting supplies (water, food, hygiene in order of importance) prepackaged and preferable all in one bag, medical supplies come next (either in a separate kit or with the life supporting stuff), everything else comes after this. I’ll let you decide what you think is important.

Make sure EVERYONE has individual bailout gear. This divides the weight and makes it less bulky. I recommend a minimum of one days supplies in your gear, but no more then you can carry and walk ALL day (figure 16hrs or so) along with your weapon and ammo. If you can attach this to your person and still exit the vehicle quickly do so. This can be as simple as sticking some granola bars and an MRE entrée and heater in your pockets, and attaching a sports bottle with water to a belt loop by the lid strap. On the other end tactical vest or load bearing vests don’t have to carry just ammo. Have one or two pouches stuffed with stripped down MREs, carry a canteen or two in addition to the camel back the gear already has, rolls of sealed gauze and Co-Flex (look it up, great stuff to use in place of tape or ace bandages) stuffed in the grenade holders of USGI ammo pouches, etc.

If you have kids, have them carry as much as is practical, but be prepared to use your stuff on them (and if your not prepared to do pretty much anything for them, well put them up for adoption for someone who is).

MISC

Everyone has hearing protection, and has it on/active/in for one ear AT ALL TIMES. Sure it’ll cut down on situational awareness a bit, but if you’ve ever been in a vehicle with a weapon firing you’ll understand why. It’s quiet possible you’ll be deaf in the unprotected ear (and I mean permanently) if it’s an extended fight. For the kids I’d have both ears protected at all times unless they’re old enough to be in the firefight. Same thing with eye protection, something for everyone, and on at all times.

Speaking of kids, designate one adult/older sibling, which the littlest mobile ones are to stay with AT ALL TIMES. This one person stays back out of the fight if at all possible and is responsible for getting the mobile ones to another vehicle if a change is needed. The ONLY responsibility of this person should be to look after the kids, only if you’re really short of people should they do anything else. If you’ve got lots of kids, make sure that the person in charge of them can handle them or designate more people. Note, this person is not there as the primary line of defense for the kids, they are they more as a herder/wrangler. They are the absolute last line of defense for the kids. Some who has the freedom to move, the peace of mind to sell their life dearly knowing the kids are out of the way, and the skills to ensure survival for the others is their first line of defense.

In general against disorganized looters/thugs, you’re really going to have to look out for large masses of people. They can impede your progress, and if they decide to can be a serious threat. You have to make a decision, are you willing to do what it takes to get through them, are you willing to abandon the vehicles if you are all unhurt, etc. Driving over one person to escape a life-threatening situation is one thing, but how are you going to clear 30-40 people from in front of your vehicle if your life is in danger? Trying to drive over them with a normal sized car is going to just get it stuck in a mass of flesh and then the crowd will be really angry. IEDs, whether lethal or less then lethal are an option (fire crackers can sound like gunfire or grenades, etc) to move people. Think outside of the box on this one.

Lastly, get the best vehicle possible. If you’re running this as an armed trip through hostile territory, worry about the vehicle theft charges later. If all you’ve got is a Miatta, go get something better. Look for vehicles that are sturdy, fuel efficient, and have lots of space. If they happen to be capable of off road travel, so much the better. Make sure you can drive it. If you’ve never driven a stick, now is not the time to learn. I’d rather have a VW bus, then an H2. The H2 doesn’t off road that much better then the VW bus, and it will need gas far more often then the VW bus. Also a vehicle that is relatively unattractive is far less likely to be troubled, a mob might kill for a sports car.

-Jenrick

[NMshooter]

Glad to see I was able to stimulate discussion. :)

Folks, the bad guys are not mindless zombies. They are the most dangerous creatures on the planet: thinking beings. They will make their own plans, with varying levels of creativity and success.

Note potential chokepoints before you have to drive through them, and try to plan ways around them. If you cannot scout out a particular route before the emergency have a map and perform a "map reconnaissance", go over the route on the map and take note of areas of limited visibility and numerous turns. If you can not avoid going through a potential danger area you may have to send a patrol on foot to scout out the area.

Better to take an extra day or two of travel time than get caught in an ambush.

Incedentally, the bad guys will be at their lowest level of alertness between 0200 and 0600, unless they have some experienced and disciplined leaders, so plan accordingly. ;)

[sacp81170a]

Hutch,

Sorry about using military lingo. I'll try to simplify as much as possible. BTW, Jenrick, Yammymonkey, Derek Zeanah and others all make very good points and remind me how long it's been since I had to go over any detailed movement planning with a group of trained, motivated, well equipped people, let alone a group of possibly frightened, likely untrained, and almost certainly ill-equipped group that contains women and children. Think of the problem in terms of a wagon train moving through indian country. You would almost certainly have scouts out in front, to the sides, and to the rear to warn the main group of hostiles approaching.

Traveling, traveling overwatch, and bounding overwatch are simply methods of insuring that you aren't moving into a situation that you can't recover from. Change "lead element" to "the guys out in front of the main group" and "support element" to "the guys watching their backs" and it'll be a little clearer.

In practical terms, you might use these methods in crossing a river. If you had a well known, safe fording place, you might very well take everyone across at once after scouting and securing the area. It's the quickest and easiest way. That's traveling.

If you find a fording place that looks good, but you're not sure your wagons can make it across, you might tie one off with ropes and have it driven across looking for holes and obstacles while still being able to pull it back out of any bad spots. After you find a good route, you drive the rest across. That's traveling overwatch, since the lead wagon is being "overwatched" by the others on shore. Slower, but safer.

If the river is too wide or the crossing too uncertain and you don't have long enough ropes to cover the entire distance, you might send one wagon ahead to find a secure place, tie it down, send another wagon ahead to find the next secure place, and so on until you had crossed the river. This type of leap-frogging movement is called bounding overwatch

Now, replace "river" with "danger zone" and "rope" with "support weapons", and you'll get a general idea of the concept. All of these techniques would work with any group of 2 or more vehicles, but they also apply to movement of groups of people on foot.

Another point that I don't think has been brought up is this: establish a clear chain of command. When TSHTF, everyone should know the plan, but everyone should also be very clear on whose orders to follow. Nothing causes a group to disintegrate into chaos more quickly than confusion as to whose orders to follow. I cannot emphasize this point enough. If that guy goes down for whatever reason, everyone should know who to look to next, and so on.

Hope this helps.

[psyopspec]

Great points all around! Here's a tip I remembered from training: In the event of an ambush, priority number one is to get out of the kill zone. A convoy shouldn't stop until reaching it's destination, but if you do stop (say you have no comms, need a map check, bathroom break on the side of the road), pull the vehicles off the road on opposite and alternating sides, maintaining an interval (believe ours was 25m). It's called a "herring bone" and should should look something like this if you're heading north. Pardon the crude illustration; arrows show direction of travel before the stop, the forward and back slashes show the way vehicles should be pulled off to the side of the road.

^ /
^
^
\ ^
^
^
^ /
^
^
\ ^

Notice that with a 25m interval between each vehicle, the vehicles on each side of the road maintain a 50m interval making those vehicles harder to attack as a cluster. During a stop like this, driver's only get out as a last resort - should the convoy come under attack you want to get mob as quickly as possible. If you're going to be there for a while, armed passengers dismount and face outward using the vehicle as cover. If an ambush occurs from one side forces can be shifted to the cover side of the vehicles. Each vehicle should be trying to get moving at this time though, since the best way to deal with a kill zone is to not be there and the second best way is to get out fast.


Speaking of the vehicle, I'd want 4wd given my area, we can have extreme weather in any season, and additionally if there's civil unrest I'd expect structural decay in the cities preceeding or coming closely after the breakdown of law. A truck is a good suggestion, but I'd prefer something enclosed to keep supplies and passengers protected from the elements and miscreants (especially if you may be living out of the vehicle for a few days). Jeep, Range Rover, or other SUV with high ground clearance and 4WD would be ideal. DVD player optional.

[carebear]

Watch your obstacles when you get to them.

Since we're looking at traveling through a natural disaster area instead of an active war zone, learn what natural blowdowns look like. There are likely to be stalled vehicles and all sorts of junk on the roads. If it looks unnatural, vehicles look placed, saw cuts on trees and such, it may be a deliberate obstacle. Fortunately, there's less chance of trees and such being dropped on you with command-detonated explosives (instant roadblock) by bandits vice soldiers.

Assume all deliberate obstacles are covered by fire, if you can't push through it immediately, don't stack up on the obstacle.

Watch your roadside for suspiciously placed markers. It's kind of a "you'll know it when you see it" idea. Blazes on trees, engineer tape any of those can be used as range markers or to give points of reference for triggering an ambush.

First rule of a convoy is "don't lose the convoy." Enforce that each vehicle watch the vehicle to their front and to their rear, maintain regular commo checks and, as was stated, one person is in charge with a clear chain of command. Democracy goes out the window on the tactical level.

[NMshooter]

So, it is not an ambush after all, the mess on the road is natural.

What now?

Do you have a winch, block and tackle, or at least a tow strap?

Maybe a chainsaw, axe, sledgehammer, big red crowbar( ;) )?

Or perhaps alternate routes if it is impossible to clear the road or it would take too long.

[carebear]

NM,

Had to go cadge a free breakfast with the folks. :D I was going to follow up with having the clearing supplies handy so you don't sit around digging them out on the obstacle. Axes, chainsaws, winches and pulaskis for chopping stuff up into movable pieces and dragging it out of the way. This, with a decent tow chain, is where that 4W Low most city drivers never use can come in handy.

Strap em on the hood with the spare tires.

You do have a fullsize spare and tire patch kit (in addition to the fix-a-flat) with some kind of pump right? Sharpener and oil for the saw? Decent size bow saw for if the saw breaks?

I was on the "if you want it, you carry it" side of the house, but on the odd occasions we had a vehicle, I loaded that sucker down. My team wasn't gonna get stuck with its pants down in the middle of nowhere.

[NMshooter]

4 low is wonderful, saved my back from many unpleasant hours of pushing or pulling.

Having a big steel push bumper on the front of your 4x4 is definitely a big plus.

So is a hi-lift or ladder jack.

And a couple hundred feet of nylon rope.

Fire extinguisher.

Lots of other stuff that do not immediately come to mind.

[Sam]

Maintenance, Maintenance, maintenance. You cannot do too much to ensure that your vehicle roadworthy. Being immobile can be fatal. Even with professional operators in a road march through friendly territory, busted vehicles are a real problem. Getting even 10 vehicles through a 300 mile march intact can be tough. Under hostile conditions or on storm damaged roads it can become near impossible.

Check everything and fix as soon as possible.
Even that silly dome light can be mighty useful and you will not appreciate it till it is burned out. If something breaks that you cannot fix, record it so you can come back to it later.
When you check tires, check for wear, cuts, bulges and pressure and then check the d@mn spares, a flat spare is worse than embarassing.
Know where the tool kit is stashed on the vehicle and how to get it fast. Do repairs quick but neat. Wrap your tool kit in a heavy tarp, you can sit or kneel or lay on it and keep your tools on it. For a fast bug out grab the corners and throw the whole thing in the vehicle, with all the tools. Someone can sort it out later and you will have all of it.
Keep spares, wire, electric and duct tape, wire ties, fuses, some quickset epoxy, hoses, 6 foot of quickbelt if you can't carry a replacement set.
Spare fuel and water go on the exterior rear of the vehicle, never inside, never on top.
Get civilized jacks. Factory issue scissors and bumper jacks are next to useless. Get a High lift.
If you have to make an overnight stop, first thing after setting security is inspecting, repairing and servicing the vehicle/s.

If attacked keep moving. Make every effort to break through.
If a couple of the vehicles break through, they can set up an attack on the ambushers, take the pressure off the convoy and have some hope of getting the rest out. You will be more effective running on through than trying to stop and save a wrecked vehicle or it's crew. If they can grab on as you come by fine, but you cannot stop for them and expect to survive. Break contact and come back. If you stop for a pitched battle on the side of the road, you will all die. If the lead vehicles are immobilized, the rear ones need to break contact, flank and attack the the ambushers the same way. Pray that the ambushers are amatuers.

The leader needs to keep his head out and his hand off the weapons.
His job is to lead. He needs to keep a clear head and direct the action and responses. He should be the last person engaging the enemy.

Sam

[sacp81170a]

Another advantage to 4wd vehicles: you don't have to use the roads. I saw an interview on one of the cable TV news networks with a guy who had gotten his family out of New Orleans after the hurricane and just before the levees broke. He said that he was able to drive on sidewalks when the roads were blocked, and actually drove along a levee bank for a while to get around a flooded road. Using quick thinking and action, he was able to get himself and his family out of the danger zone before the gangs started the looting and shooting. He said it took him about 10 hours to get out and onto passable roads, but he was being interviewed from a Houston hotel room, high, dry and safe with a nice warm bed and his wife and kid safe.

Seems like having a plan of action ready to implement on very short notice is a great advantage. 'Nuther lesson learned. If you can unass the AO before ambushes can be set up, so much the better. Now where was that checklist that I was gonna go over...?

Oh, and Sam is exactly right about the leader keeping his hands off the weapons and analyzing the overall situation. A combat leader should only add his firepower to the group's at critical points and then only long enough to resolve the immediate situation. He should never be a member of the point team, but keep himself where he can observe the overall situation and deploy support elements to the best advantage. "Lead from the front" is an inspiring concept, but it doesn't mean that you are on the point, just that you are close enough to observe it carefully. He's too valuable to risk needlessly, but he must necessarily put himself in danger when others are at risk.

[YammyMonkey]

sacp81170a, Thanks for the compliment, I was just trying to think things out as best I could since I have no real experience in this sort of thing. Always best to throw out ideas and see what others have to say if you want to learn.

Another good point brought up was the leader needs to be hands off as much as possible. Probably means no driving as well. Pretty hard to observe the whole of what is going on if you're worried about staying properly spaced, avoiding road hazards and navigating out of a nasty situation. Be there to support those major "OH $#@&" situations, but otherwise you're best bet is to observe, plan and communicate.

With the comms, make sure you're clear and concise. No need to dictate a novel including the who what when where why and how. Comms should be limited to "You, this is me, this is what I want." Maybe throw in a "this is where I am" if you're out of sight or the group has otherwise broken up.

[Thin Black Line]

Are some of you already driving around in uparmored diesel Suburbans with run-flat rims?

Hmm...let's see, civilian vehicles, soft skin, skinny tires, oh, yes, very
flammable gasoline. Are we assuming in the convoy scenario that
we really <must> take this trip because where we're at right now
is no longer defendable?

Does it assume warnings to leave went unheeded because the danger that
arose was truly a surprise? :eek: :banghead:

------Quoted from news about New O-------
The warning was stark and uncompromising. It was read by too few and ignored by too many. "Extremely dangerous Hurricane Katrina continues to approach the Mississippi River Delta," reported the Sunday morning bulletin from the United States National Weather Service Bureau in New Orleans. "Devastating damage expected."

As the gigantic storm flung its spiralling arms ever-closer to the Louisiana coast, the words of the bulletin rang like those of an Old Testament prophet. "Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps longer. Persons, pets and livestock exposed to the winds will face certain death. Water shortages will make human suffering incredible by modern standards. Do not venture outside!"
---------end quote--------
:what:

If you get a warning that your city (or FOB) is about to get nuked, you
leave it. But, if you really don't have to, then don't. I think what really
needs to be imparted to the people here who have NOT BTDT, that this
is extremely friggin' risky. It is also something that must be practiced
as a group a number of times before you need to do it.

[Hutch]

Well, TBL, my original question had to do with being caught flat-footed after a no-notice or rapidly evolving catastrophe. The defense of the current location never figured into the decision to "head for the hills". I realize it's risky to skeedaddle, but some of us have obligations elsewhere, due to family responsibility.

I'm not trying to prepare for the Blackhawk Down scenario in Mogadishu, just trying to get tips from them what knows on how best to secure travel in times of panic or disorder. Obviously, some suggestions will hold true for any/all cases. Others, not so much. Please don't deride those who have given us all the benefit of their insights.

[Thin Black Line]

My intention is not to "deride" people, but hope they ask serious questions
and weigh the situation with a clear head. If we're talking about a convoy
due to worst case scenario, then you have to consider the convoy being
hit with the worst case scenario as well. This will involve getting shot
at from the overpasses as you go down the open highway or having stuff
thrown down on you in an urban area. It will take very little to knock
a small unarmored civilian convoy off track, bog it down, and destroy it.

But, yes, if you're planning on picking up a stranded relative in City X
and you guys have a couple dozen vehicles, you will probably be avoided
by the small groups of thugs both in urban and rural areas. However,
do expect random shots that will wound or kill people in the vehicles,
and/or road hazards that puncture tires. You will be forced to come to
a stop to tend wounded and/or replace tires. Then things get scary.

However, what happens when you bottleneck among wrecked vehicles
or come to a dead stop due to a traffic jam? What happens when you
take a couple right turns in a city/town due to impassable barricades,
find yourself blocked ahead, and now there's a rather formidable mob
behind you? I could come up with rural scenario questions, too.

I'm truly not asking these questions to be facetious.

But, let's go with your premise that you <have> to go. Ok, I'll respect
that. That's why it's good that you'll have practiced together in advance
in peaceful times. You'll all have spare rimmed tires for all your vehicles,
reliable commo for all vehicles, and a few people going along who can stop
the bleeding from gunshot wounds and treat burns from gasoline. An
EMT, Medic, or CLS will be great. Make sure he/she is well-protected
in the convoy, has their own commo, is NOT a driver or gunner, and is
well-stocked with medical supplies.

You're all set to go down the Thin Black Line that will be the battlefield.

[tanksoldier]

Greetings from a new member.

This is my first post to this forum, but as someone with a bit of experience on this topic I had to comment.

Many of the comments about how to run a large "convoy" in hazardous terriitory are more or less accurate, however:

If you've ever watched Survivor you will have noticed that random groups of civilians do not take well to directive-style leadership. This isn't something you're going to want to try with just anybody. Any scenario I can come up with where you will have enough vehicles, people and equipment to pull it off would still require weeks of planning, rehersal and preparation. The most important thing is training, and the most important sort of training would be to follow orders and battle drills... you have to know that the people around you will react properly in every situation, without orders... and that they will obey orders, even those orders that do not maximize their own survival potential... and which put the survival of their families in the hands of others. Some of the regular posters to this forum have obvious issues with auhority, esp when that authority does things that they don't completely agree with. The middle of an ambush isn't the time to argue tactics, and you can't decide to take your ball and go home, either.

Rather than discuss what to do when you have a large group of well-equipped, well-disciplined and well-trained adults mounted in several capable vehicles it might be more practical to consider how to handle the "dad on the motorcycle, mom driving the pickup with junior and missy aboard" scenarios.
It sounds much more likely to me.

[sacp81170a]

TBL, your points are well taken. This is beginning to remind me of the numerous threads I've seen on clearing buildings. "This is something for the pros, don't do this yourself unless you have a trained and equipped team to back you up."

Truth be told, the convoy commander should be riding in the chopper overhead where he can see everything, but that kind of scenario is completely unrealistic for the majority of us with the resources we have to hand. What I'm taking away from this thread is a lot of good suggestions on how best to arrange your load for contingencies, basics on movement and communications discipline, etc.

You're right, though, and I mentioned the guy who got his family out before the gangs started shooting and looting. The best convoy tactic is to get it the hell out of the danger area before there's a danger area. Now, about the zombies, what's the best kind of bumper to have on your vehicles to smash through crowds of 'em? :evil: Should I go for a dozer blade or maybe a chariot-scythe type of arrangement on the wheels? :neener:

[Preacherman]

Tanksoldier, well said! You are absolutely right that untrained "civilian"-minded folks will have a serious problem implementing this approach. However, don't forget that many of us are veterans of military service, some of us combat veterans too. This means that those individuals are more likely to take charge of such an effort, and certainly would assume the leadership roles. If I were in such a situation, and the "civilian"-minded folks insisted on doing it their way, I'd drop out of the convoy and invite like-minded folks to join me - then we'd do it the old-fashioned, hard-learned military way.

[Thin Black Line]

Tanksoldier --you hit the nail on the head. My concern is for the
families that would attempt to move around in convoys through
the danger zone while the gangs and looters are still out. People
really have to ask is it worth the risk and everyone going needs
to be 100% affirmative on the mission. Eyes wide open.

It's hard enough for physically fit adults let alone grannies and
babies and all that. Are people going to send out 1/2 of the
men folk from their fixed camp to retrieve a couple more?
Who's going to take care of the camp? I guess in the civilian
convoy scenario we can assume the rest of the family members
are in relative safety in an unaffected area. But what makes
an easier target: A line of 8 vehicles rumbling down a tight road
(aka the Deer Path) or two stragglers making their own way by
cutting across ground at night to the camp?

Yeah, it's going to suck if you have to go pick someone up in
a wheelchair (yes, I have a close relative in one). How many
people are you going to sacrifice on convoy to accomplish that?
Will it leave the camp you left behind for this trip too weakened
and ripe for destruction? Being faced with these choices can
tear a person apart.

I hope people aren't planning on moving around a lot in TEOTWAWKI.
They'll just end up sustaining the larger gangs, militias, tribes, clans,
or whatever they want to call them with more ammo and food. Or,
worse yet, become raiders themselves when their supplies, most notably
FUEL, are used up. But, yeah, I'm sure everyone reading this is the
nice short of religious people who live on family farms and can sustain
themselves for a long period of time.

As you all can tell I have all sorts of scary scenarios play through my head.
:evil: :eek: :barf:

Oh, well. Let's mount up! :fire: