Rifle, Carbine, Pistol, or Shottie?

[itgoesboom]

Had a friend over for dinner tonight, and as expected, the conversation turned towards the situation in N. Orleans.

Friend mentioned that his wife is now on board with him setting up some preps, including buying one firearm.

Since he brought up the N. Orleans situation as being a justification for purchasing a firearm, I mentioned that he should look at getting a rifle or carbine, since I felt that it would be the most useful if you were trying to defend you home/business from looters and rioters.

I mentioned this for several reasons;

1. A rifle/carbine/shotgun is a more effective stopper than a handgun.
2. A rifle/carbine is more effective and accurate at longer ranges.
3. The fact that Wal-Mart and the pawn shops got looted early on, and their rifles taken. You have better odds with a rifle/carbine going up against someone with a rifle than you do with just a pistol.

So that was my opinion.

Whatcha think?

In a situation similar to the one that is occuring in N.O., what would you prefer?


Would you recommend a pistol so that he could CCW?

Would you recommend a rifle/carbine so that he could engage at ranges past 35-50 meters?

Or would you recommend a shotgun?

What and why please?

I.G.B.

[Dionysusigma]

Find him a BFR in .45-70, custom fitted with a 16.25" barrel. Have Hakan make a shoulder stock for it. Load it with .410. Problem solved. ;) :D

I recommend a shotgun. Someone acclimated to living in a city is going to be moving back to one, and if any conflict is going to take place, it's not going to be at rifle distance. In fact, I see more happening indoors what with break-ins and the like than anything else.

Then he needs a CCW and a .38 snubby to carry. Just tell him to keep it concealed from the wife.

[itgoesboom]

Just tell him to keep it concealed from the wife.

Thats not far off of what I told him.

I told him that SKS/Mosins/Mausers/Enfields, etc, are cheap enough to buy that he could probably sneak a few into his house without his wife finding out. :neener:

She didn't find that comment humerous in the least. :o

I.G.B.

[beerslurpy]

As I have said before, much to the chagrin of the lever gun fans, the AK47 in 7.62x39 is a great SHTF gun for the following reasons:
-it can touch people out to 300 yards in a pinch
-it uses a big enough round to take deer and pigs for when you get hungry
-it is reliable in crappy environmental conditions
-it is cheap to buy and cheap to shoot, so you have no excuse for not being proficient
-it is relatively lightweight and compact, so it wont be a burden to carry
-it penetrates cover very well, in case looters hide behind stuff and you dont have another you to flank them while the first you lays down covering fire

Shop for a CCW gun some other time. The whole point of CCW is comfort and concealability, not effectiveness in combat. You draw it, blast anyone in your way and run for a bigger gun (or help). It is going to be useless in any other situation, especially one where you want a big gun but dont have one to run to.

[Wags]

Shotgun.

[c_yeager]

At this point, if the cops/NG/army see you with a rifle in your hands they are going to confiscate it. So the real question is: pistol or fists? Easy choice for me. Long guns are better weapons all around, but if you need to conceal them your SOL.

[fisherman66]

Shotgun - centerpiece of defense - pump would be my first choice.
Mauser or Mosin (or for a little more SKS)
HighPoint (9mm hand gun)

If done 2nd hand or pawn shop: < $300

[c_yeager]

Let me add: In the fantasy-land in which a person can carry a long-gun in the middle of an American city, i would choose an 870 as the best all-around weapon available in that environment.

[Biker]

If I had to choose only one, it would be my Bushmaster. .223/5.56 is easily scavenged, not only from gun shops but from fallen NG troops or LEOs-don't flame, just an observation. A lot of ammo in 30 round mags can be carried easily and the recoil is such that just about anyone can shoot the weapon without flinching. Stopping power is adequate and it is effective from contact distance out to 300 meters. Having said that, I wouldn't feel the least bit uncomfortable with my 870 slug gun.
Biker

[lee n. field]

A holstered handgun can be worn. At best, a long gun will be much less convenient, at best a folding stock gun on a sling.

[CAnnoneer]

In an urban situation like NO, I'd go with a handgun.

While from a purely military perspective, an AK or an SKS is far better, there are other issues to consider, e.g. distances, concealment, strategy, surprise, ammo replenishment, and local LE.

[pwrtool45]

A rifle doesn't do you any good at all if it's at home while you're at work. Or if it's in the trunk and across a parking lot. Or if it gets confiscated while you're walking around downtown. In fact, here in the modern world there are very, very few instances where a rifle can be either in hand or reasonably accessable when needed-- especially for those of us in larger cities.

I understand most shooters like their rifles better than their pistols, but from a stictly pragmatic standpoint? The pistol will be there when you need it. (It should also, IMO, receive the bulk of serious range time / training time because of this.)

Rule. Number. One.

Suggestions for your friend? Glock 26 or 19.

[Lord Bodak]

I would want a rifle with me, depending on the situation either the SKS or the .357 lever, as I've said in the other threads on this topic.

But carrying a handgun is a no brainer. Having the rifle doesn't mean you can't have a handgun in a holster, and I definitely would.

[beerslurpy]

The first step in avoiding problems with the NG and cops is to not wander around the city hunting for looters when they are attempting to restore order. Your job is to stay with your family and your neighbors, protecting life and property, not wandering around enforcing the law.

If the police in NO decided to take a break from looting to come steal my guns, they would have found themselves taking a dirt nap in very short order.

[R.H. Lee]

12 ga pump shotgun, open cylinder, extended mag, buttcuff and sling.

[Preacherman]

So much depends on the circumstances and environment in which you plan to use the weapon. I'd approach it like this:

1. A handgun is a must-have. It's available if your long gun is not nearby in an emergency, and, as Clint Smith points out, it's there to use while fighting your way to your long gun.

2. A rifle is much more versatile than a shotgun if medium to long range fire is involved (let's say 50 yards out - I know a shotgun can hit out to 100 yards with slugs, but its sights are typically rather more primitive than those of a rifle, and it's harder to control). If your environment is such that longer-range shots are likely to be needed, go for a rifle.

3. A shotgun has no peer at putting out massive stopping power at close to medium range. If you absolutely have to knock down the guy bashing in your front door, a couple of deer slugs or buckshot loads are very likely your best choice. If medium to long range work is not a major factor, go with the shotgun.

My own choice is to rely on an AK clone in 7.62x39 for my primary defensive long gun. It can take deer-size game if I need to hunt for survival; it's relatively light and easy to control; and it's as reliable as a long gun gets. A secondary long gun would be a Remington 870, if I could find space to pack it: but if I have space for only one, the AK is my choice. If I were severely budget-restricted, I wouldn't feel underarmed with a $100 Yugo SKS and some stripper clips.

[geekWithA.45]

For the person who isn't likely to become a skilled shooter, and simply wants to put aside a firearm "just in case" is the Kel-Tec Sub2000 in .40 S&W

Reasons:


A)It's relatively inexpensive, $300+/-
B)It's reasonably powerful at realistic SHTF ranges (<50 yards), and hicap to boot
C) The carbine format is easy to use and handle, and much easier for an unskilled shooter to reliably get hits with.
i) handguns take practice to use well, they are the most difficult to master
ii) let's face it: shotguns are creatures of vast noise, weight and recoil. They aren't for everyone, especially for folks outside our "circle".
D) It folds up tightly, which means it's more likely to be ~nearby~ in an emergency (ie: trunk/suitcase/etc)
E) It's PC in every jurisdiction (except DC, of course!)
F) With creativity, it can be folded and concealed in circumstances where you'd never be able to quickly hide a rifle...(think twitchy NOLA cops....)


So there, fwiw

[tommytrauma]

For the person who isn't likely to become a skilled shooter, and simply wants to put aside a firearm "just in case" is the Kel-Tec Sub2000 in .40 S&W

Reasons:


A)It's relatively inexpensive, $300+/-
B)It's reasonably powerful at realistic SHTF ranges (<50 yards), and hicap to boot
C) The carbine format is easy to use and handle, and much easier for an unskilled shooter to reliably get hits with.
i) handguns take practice to use well, they are the most difficult to master
ii) let's face it: shotguns are creatures of vast noise, weight and recoil. They aren't for everyone, especially for folks outside our "circle".
D) It folds up tightly, which means it's more likely to be ~nearby~ in an emergency (ie: trunk/suitcase/etc)
E) It's PC in every jurisdiction (except DC, of course!)
F) With creativity, it can be folded and concealed in circumstances where you'd never be able to quickly hide a rifle...(think twitchy NOLA cops....)


So there, fwiw
Dispite some misgivings regarding construction of the sub not being as robust as other rifles, I have to agree. I picked up a sub a couple of years ago simply as a toy. I had to buy another one, because my wife and my oldest daughter both fell in love with it. It's light, easy to shoot and has no real recoil. It can reach out to a hundred yards without problem, but is short and handy enough for indoor use. The ten buck sling from Kel-tec works well as a combat sling, and the folded weapon can be carried in pretty much any backpack, bookbag, whatever. Mags and ammo are both dirt cheap (at least in S&W configuration 9mm), and the weapon itself is extremely affordable.

The fact that my wife and daughter, both relative non-shooters, find the sub easy and fun to shoot speaks well towards it's suitability for a non-shooters 'just in case' gun.

[The_Antibubba]

Let's look again at what this guy wants the gun for: Defending home or business from looters or rioters.

Yes, a pistol is certainly convenient, and concealable. It can also be difficult for a new shooter to hit a target while under stress.

Pistol-caliber carbines are a better choice, only because they're lighter than a rifle. Stopping power is a bit better than the same round from a handgun, and range is a little farther. Keep it in mind.

A rifle? If we consider that an AK can hit a man-sized target at 300 yards, ask yourself, "Is 300 yards considered a defensive shooting?" Even 100 yds is going to difficult to justify to a jury. And that's if the friend can even hit anything.

His friend's first best choice is a shotgun. At defensive ranges it can be devastating, and a partial hit might still be achieved if aim is a bit off. If he should need to hit something farther off, a slug round is available. Reduced recoil rounds are good for training and smaller shooters (the wife can use it too).

[WT]

If he is going to shelter in place to defend his home or business, I would go with a AR type carbine.

If he is going to bug out, wade thru chest deep water, try to keep his wife from drowning or getting swept away, etc. I think you need 2 hands for that. I would carry a pistol that can be fully immersed in water for hours and be readily cleaned and dried without tools.

[Island Beretta]

if you are talking about self-defense and I can choose only one then a carbine, preferably AK carbines..

If you are talking about a general use weapon in a crisis such as in NO, and especially in an urban or near urban setting and I can only choose one, then the versatility of a shotgun is without par.. bird and animal hunting, self-defense, breaking trees, clearing shrubs, animal attacks esp. by packs, building entry/exit/clearance etc. etc.- a shotgun is without par here!!

[thereisnospoon]

My very first question would be, Why limit yourself to only one gun?

Anyone with a body temperature and a green card can make money in America. Get a second job (Wal-Mart, McD's, Dominoes, etc.) and save the money you earn for real defensive guns and the training to use them.

Anyone serious enough to think about buying a firearm for self defense should use whatever means legally necessary to secure and train with a reliable firearm at a qualified school of instruction.

It's the man, not the gun...

[hightech]

I have to agree with tommytrauma and geekWithA.45 . I have the Kel-Tec sub 2000 in 9mm with Beretta magazines. My SA XD9 pistol magazines are modified and will fit the sub 2000. In fact you use to be able to buy modified Beretta magazines from SA. All carbine / pistol magazines are interchangeable. :cool: For a shotgun go with the Mossberg 500 Persuader and install the pistol grip. All are short, light, and easy to handle by members of the family. All are easy to hide / store away ;) and great for urban / suburban ranges [less than 75 yds].

[1911_Mitch]

As I read through this thread, I tend to agree with the pistol caliber carbine, probably in 9mm, and plan it to be compatible with pistol magazines, and get the pistol next year, or whenever you can.

If you are more suburban or rural and leaning toward a shotgun, consider a 20ga. Less recoil would make it "newbie" freindly and easier for the wife/girlfriend to become accustomed, while still packing quite a punch. Could be a slug gun for urban engagement ranges if necessary, buckshot for personal protection at close ranges, and use birdshot for the SHTF survival food tool, as birds, fowl, etc.. are bound to be more plentiful than larger mammalian game.

[Thin Black Line]

The friend and his wife who are now on board need to put together at
least a 72-hour kit bug out kit, followed by how they would feed/water
themselves at home for possibly a few weeks, before they get too focused
on the firearms.

That said, can't go wrong with a pistol and a shotgun and the professional
training in how to use them both. It would be great for them to get CCWs
and have the pistol available for travel if needed.

[Sewerman]

if i could only have one gun i would take a really reliable hi power rifle, if i were recomending a gun for someone not nessisarily so expierenced i think i would recomend a 12ga shotgun. reliable and multi use.

[bad LT]

Your friend should have at least 2 guns for defense

You can have a handgun on you at all times, also you can conceal it - I would recommend a full size 38 Special or 357 loaded with 38 +p ammo. Very effective and less chance for an opperator induced error.

Around the house I would recommend something bigger, more powerful, and easier to hit with - either a carbine or shotgun, (whatever they shoot best) in a reasonable caliber (no 22LR, etc.)

The above weapons along with some basic training will cause your friend to be better prepared than the vast majority of people.

[realmswalker]

What about an m1 carbine with a folding stock, good for pretty much anything.

[Jrm5204]

Get a folding stock AK47 carbine clone, and a Glock. The AK can be put in a hiking style backpack and the Glock can be carried concealed in a holster. Both are reliable, require little maintenance, and hi cap spare mags are cheap.

[longeyes]

AK or AR and a Glock (19/26).

[nfl1990]

Consider a Springfield Soccom II Kinda expensive but he's only buying one gun anyway, the .308 round gives you stopping power and the 16" barrel means that close range is no problem

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-socom-ii.shtml

[GEM]

One gun - I go for the old SW Model 10 type 38 revolver for the untrained.

Less screwing around than most other guns. With some training, I like the Glock, AK combo.

[haole_boySS]

Only 1 gun huh? Hmm....
Without a doubt, I would go with a shotgun. Benelli Nova comes to mind. They are relatively cheap, built like tanks and are pumps so there is less to malfunction. Get a slug barrel, mag extension, and pistol grip and you have a weapon that will shoot....Bird shot, Buck shot, Slugs, and the nasty tracer/3000 deg burn shots. With that combo of ammo, you can take pretty much any game animal in north america and defend against any danger to you or your family. ;)
Close range would not be a problem. I'm willing to bet that no man or animal could take 12ga Bird Shot to the chest inside 15 yrds. Its gonna leave one hellova mark.
In a SHTF situation, I would not worry about distance shooting with a rifle. You can shoot a good slug gun out to what?? 75-80 yds?? Seriously, if you need to shoot a threat past that distance....Are you sure its really a threat? :confused:

[reagansquad]

AK and shotgun...?

I say go for the best of both worlds and have him get a saiga shotgun... He can keep a few mags around, some with 00 buck and some with slugs.

[foghornl]

One firearm? ? ?

Yes, one of EACH TYPE you mentioned.

Handgun for the 'up-close-and-personal' stuff

Shotty for up to 40-50 Yds

Carbine for up to 150 Yds or so

Main Battle Rifle in a major power calibre for when ya absolutely gotta put something down NOW

MY artillery cabinet...
Handgun: .45ACP [1911's & a Ruger KP-90]
Shotgun: Maverick88 by Mossberg
Carbine: Yugo 59/66 SKS and a Marlin .30/30,
Main Battle Rifles are Mossberg ATR-100 in .30-06 and a Mosin-Nagant M-44 in 7.62x54

And the Most Serious Artillery...US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly known As "The Garand"

Add a couple of .22LR rifles for small-game getters (If it truly is TEOTWAWKI)
Ruger 10/22 with those Eeeeevil 25-round Butler Creek mags, and an OLD Marlin 99---17 rounds of .22LR in that under-barrel tube mag.

[WYO]

If limited to one, it really needs to be a handgun that can be concealed under bulky clothing. I think the best thing would be a used K frame and a cheap SKS, the combined price of which would be less than buying just about anything new. If a couple of brand new firearms owners couldn't repel boarders with that combo, they weren't going to make it anyway.

[antarti]

The first step in avoiding problems with the NG and cops is to not wander around the city hunting for looters when they are attempting to restore order. Your job is to stay with your family and your neighbors, protecting life and property, not wandering around enforcing the law.

Best advice yet.

And since I'll be holed up, a drum-fed AK is the first thing I would reach for, an m1 carbine second, and an AR third. Each has cheap hicaps, is reliable (in the above order) and has penetration enough for shooting through a single wall (in order again) or (house or vehicle) door.

[nfl1990]

Get a class III, then buy an M-4, and the canister launcher for under the barrel.

[Mannlicher]

I have always liked shotguns, and I love handguns. If, howerver, things 'went South' in a hurry, I would reach for the AR180B or AR 15, and not the shotty or pistol.
Reason? Best 'bang for the buck'. Better range, can carry more ammo, and is more effective than any handgun.

[goon]

Of the general choices available, I would take a rifle over a shotgun for general use.
Don't get me wrong here. I have hunted with shotguns since I was 12 and I have recently become better acquainted with the defensive variety thanks to my "new" 18.5 inch Mossberg 500. With slugs I would feel reasonably comfortable engaging someone out to 75 yards or so, and with Federal 3" 00 Buck it puts about 8-9 pellets minute-of-torso at 25 yards. I have shot enough slugs and buck out of mine recently to have a decent idea of where to hold to hit and I think I would do OK with it.
But range and precision are two things that I don't have with it. After shooting rifles since I was a kid, those are two things that I appreciate.
For general defensive work and for versatility, the shotgun kicks butt.
But if I knew I was going to get into any kind of a fight I would prefer an FAL, SKS or even the lowly lever action 30-30 over a shotgun.
As for the hunting use, I am thinking that you would be better off to just add $5 worth of canned food, crackers, ramen noodles, or peanut butter every time you go to the store and rotate it from there.
For those who haven't hunted, hunting is alot of work. There is alot of prep between starting out with a loaded gun and eating a peice of venison. It is WAY easier to just go to the pantry and pull out a couple cans of baked beans.
YMMV.

[FotoTomas]

I am a firm believer that every family should have as a minimum the following:
A centerfire rifle
A repeating Shotgun
A service style handgun
A .22 rimfire.

These four firearms will allow any family to survive darn near anything.

The makes and models are open to suggestion but a good example and inexpensive would be...A Winchester 30-30, Mossberg 500, Smith & Wesson model 10 and a Ruger 10-22.

For the rifle you can go a variety of ways such as the AK or SKS options, Expensive AR15 or Ruger Mini-14, Less expensive surplus Enfield or Yugo Mauser. The Shotgun and pistol is also open to a variety of choices. The key is to get them.

If it were me and I was in a bind financially I would go for the shotgun first and then the handgun to be followed up by the rifle and .22.

I see the shotgun as being the first choice to defend the family and houshold after a catastrophe. I survived 3 hurricanes last year and had the shotgun at hand in the house. An excellent show of force and easily recognizable to riff-raff. In my case I also had a GLOCK 26 in the pocket as backup and a "always" armed gun. A KelTec Sub 2000 in 9mm with GLOCK 30 round magazines was also available. I did not get the rifle until this spring and I went with a Colt LE Carbine.

This setup with a Ruger 10-22 rifle and Ruger .22/45 pistol covers any eventuality. I have some extra handguns for competition and concealed carry but they are bonus material.

If I were looking to recommend a system for new shooters I would go for the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge to start. A S&W Model 10 with a 3 inch barrel to have available if you needed to be armed quietly and a Winchester Model 94 for the rifle. A .22 rifle of most any variety would be last.

I think only one gun is a false economy for emergency use. The need for the significant other to be armed if you must cover the front and rear of the house should not be overlooked. Especially in the event you had the one gun break or get confiscated. A second gun "put up" would not leave you unarmed. Even a lowly .22 Marlin rifle from Wal-Mart would be potent medicine for most looters.

If only one...Shotgun, one each per spouse. :)

[wizard of oz]

FotoTomas is correct. You need a centrefire rifle, handgun, shotgun and .22 to do everything that can be done with a firearm. Anything less than that will leave a deficiency in capability. Doesn't really matter what order you buy them in, though logically a .22 should be a person's first firearm.

[itgoesboom]

Nevermind...gunkid is gone now....


I.G.B.

[irontorc]

Personally, I'm vastly more experienced with the pistol as compared to the rifle, shotgun or smg. But, if there could only be one, it would be the rifle (m1a, m1, fn-fal).

irontorc