[Highland Ranger]

Seems to me its a bad spot.

Now considering that of the buildings still standing, most wood and many stone structures are not going to react well to prolonged submergence.

So when they finally get it dry a year from now, much of the flooded area will be a total loss.

In light of that, does it make sense to build the city in the same spot?

[fletcher]

IMO It's up to them what they do, as long as they don't use our (federal taxpayer) money for any of the rebuilding. But no, I don't think NO should be rebuild in the same spot.

[craig]

take everything usable out. bulldoze the rest. take all debris from affected area, deposit in N.O. to raise level of city. pave over. build refinery. sarcasm off.

[hksw]

...as long as they don't use our (federal taxpayer) money for any of the rebuilding.

HAHAHA. The government uses taxpayer money to rebuild homes along encroaching beaches that we know will once again erode the beach and destroy the rebuilt houses.

The taxpayer money to rebuild NO where it once stood will be the biggest project that region will ever see for a while, a good percentage of which will go into the R&D to build better structures in an attempt to prevent the same thing from happening again. Then, the same thing will happen again despite the improvements.

[mete]

The Netherlands had very serious flooding in the 1950s. That was the start of a massive dike system. They should hire Netherlanders to design a similar system for NO.

[skynyrd1911]

How about filling it in and building a memorial park on it. Maybe an RV park. Something mobile. Or perhaps a new NASCAR track. Then when it fills up again, all they would have to do is pump it out. :what:

[GlenJ]

It should be rebuilt farther inland. Here's how it could be done.
Bring in the displaced residents and pay them to do the work under the Army Corp of Engineers. They could actually be trained in the building trades by them and have a useful trade kind of like an apprentice program like we have in the shipyard. The ones who don't want to work or learn would be left to there own devices. The money brought in by the tourist industry should be able to pay for part if not most of it.

[Sean Smith]

The dog has been allowed its one bite. You would have to be clinically retarded to move in there. Actually, that is an insult to the developmentally challenged, they usually have the sense to avoid pain.

Ever heard of zoning? The smart thing to do would be to change the zoning laws so that residental construction is illegal in "the bowl." If you want to build a business in the area, and can afford whatever the new flood insurance rate will be :eek: , have at it. But you are liable for all expenses associated with the bowl flooding again; no free handouts for you just because you were stupid.

I doubt that will happen. Everyone is going to be a sentimental moron about it, there will be dumb-assed NO 4 EVAR! bumper stickers. They will restore everything to the status quo, make a half-assed attempt at improving the levees, screw that up, and in 50-100 years NO will get destroyed again. The only good thing about that course of action is that Jessee Jackson will be dead.

[gulogulo1970]

I does not matter, should, it will be rebuilt. If New Orleans is hit with a hurricane like this one every 10-15 years we will rebuild it everytime. There may be few people who would want to call it home but it will be rebuilt.

Hopefully this will get them off their collective asses and get them to properly build the levees.

[WT]

I agree with Sean. Use Zoning Rules to keep residential housing away from the waterfront. I would extend this into Mississippi and Alabama, too. Keep houses at least 1 mile away from the beach.

Businesses like hotels, gas stations, casinos, stores, playlands, etc could be closer to the beach but would be required to carry extensive insurance.

I would also review the construction codes to make sure that buildings are built to withstand 175 MPH winds. Heck, bump it up to 200 MPH.

[Waitone]

Hey, you wanna spend your money and assume the insurance risk, knock yourself out.

Do not expect me to pay for your stoopidity.

[Stinger]

Hey, you wanna spend your money and assume the insurance risk, knock yourself out.

Guess what, it is not just their insurance that pays for the damage, but yours too.

It doesn't matter if you live in Maine, New Orleans, or Washington, your insurance premiums and tax dollars are going to rebuild N.O.

We are all going to get raked over the coals for the rebuilding effort. But it could NEVER happen again, could it?

Regards,

Stinger

[longeyes]

It will be rebuilt because a lot of people want the WPA to come back and there will be plenty of money to "divert" in the process. Does it make sense? Next question.

[gulogulo1970]

As long as people live on the coast (basicly New York State to Brownville, Texas) hurricanes and the flooding associated with them might get them. As long as people live in California, the earthquakes/fires/mud might get them. As long as people live in the midwest to Texas, the tornadoes might get them. As long as people live in the Rockies, the forest fires might get them.

I guess you would be a fool to rebuild in any of those places? The earth is a dangerous place. Hopefully, we will prepare better each time we have to rebuild. If history teaches us anything, it teaches that we never learn. Our persistance/stubborness has kept us on this planet maybe as much as our intellegence.

[Art Eatman]

From the standpoint of national interest, national needs, there must be an infrastructure in the New Orleans vicinity to support the commerce of the mouth of the Mississippi River. This is not optional.

Oil, coal, grains--import and export. What occurs in that area cannot be done anywhere else. It's not like New York City, whose financial paperwork can be done in Omaha or West Bugtussle via electronic communications. The lower Mississippi is physical, grubby-hands work.

So: It's foolish to build a city in a below-sea-level bowl. No magic to it; just jack it up. That was done in Galveston after the 1900 hurricane. Get the non-historic area above sea level via dredging into leveed compartments and then do the flood-protection levee work. Design and construct the new levees for Category Five.

Next thing, looking ahead: Clear those (bleep!) trees back from highway rights of way. Scenic is nice, but things go all to hell when the roads are closed from storm damage and downed trees and power poles.

Art

[MLH]

And expand the lake!

[grampster]

As for dependence on insurance vs taxes. Well, it works this way. Each insurance company that takes on a risk of any kind only absorbs a certain % of the risk, usually fairly small. The rest of the risk is indemnified through the use of re-insurers who cover the bulk of risk and spread it out over everybody. So your small auto carrier writing insurance in Ohio sees their re-insurance rates go up 200% on the auto risks they re-insure. Guess who gets to finance this?

[Preacherman]

Art's got it right: New Orleans is a critically important city to the US economy as a whole. The Port of South Louisiana depends on NO being there as the "hub" of its operations. There's no question that NO will be rebuilt right there - although I agree that better levees are needed.

To get the better levees, we're going to have to raise some lumps on the heads of damnfool Louisiana politicians, though... Mississippi and Alabama have had Federal funds for hurricane precautionary construction for years, because they matched the Feds dollar-for-dollar on those funds. Louisiana has always tried to get Federal money for free, or matching only 15c-20c on the dollar, with predictably negative results. They're going to have to take some money out of the Democratic-party-oriented social-welfare schemes they run and put it into levee construction in order to get matching Federal funds.

Louisiana local and State governments basically mismanaged the entire process during Katrina - see this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154729) for more information about this. Heads need to roll, and better leadership is needed for the rebuilding process, that's for sure...

As for rebuilding NO somewhere else: where??? There is no patch of suitable ground, of a suitable size, available anywhere. All one could do is to expand the size of existing cities such as Baton Rouge, Lafayette and Lake Charles - and even those cities don't have enough suitable land nearby to accomplish this. No, with that many square miles of land involved, one's only choice is to rebuild NO in place, but with significantly better protection against flooding.

[22-rimfire]

Yes, it should be rebuilt. Too much of the US commerce is moved through the port of New Orleans. Things should be rebuilt as needed smartly. I would favor building up some ot the downtown with attention to levees and water overflow routes. Things need to be alittle more controlled from a national interest (via strict zoning requirements). The question is who pays for it?

[rick_reno]

It will be "rebuilt" where it is. There is far too much critical infrastructure there to not fix the levees.

[Sean Smith]

Art's got it right: New Orleans is a critically important city to the US economy as a whole. The Port of South Louisiana depends on NO being there as the "hub" of its operations. There's no question that NO will be rebuilt right there - although I agree that better levees are needed.

That's an argument for the port, etc. being rebuilt. That's not an argument for 500,000 people living in "the bowl", however. The vast majority of the people living in NO do not support what you & Art are talking about. Therefore, what you & Art are talking about are not really arguments for keeping the bulk of the people living in the actual sub-sea-level "bowl." They are arguments for keeping certain facilities and infrastructure there.

[Preacherman]

Sean, to operate those facilities, people need to live within reach, and have a social and urban infrastructure to support their living there. Without NO, that infrastructure doesn't exist - hence, the city needs to be there.

[Art Eatman]

And, Sean, note that I urge changing the "bowl" to a "hump". :)

Art

[GunGoBoom]

Nederlander don't get hit with cat 4 & 5 hurricanes.

[R.H. Lee]

Nothing that is there will have any value after being underwater for weeks. Even the ground will be contaminated with toxins and bacteria. There's nothing to 'salvage'. The only reasonable solution is to backfill the bowl until it's above sea level, then rebuild on top.

[txgho1911]

dig new channels where the water is now. Build the land up with that material. Also build up the land west of the lake.
They could even build a few new marinas to get more fill dirt.
They can lay down new sewer and utility services on the ground and fill in around and over that. It would raise the ground level and Some folks might find it cheaper to build a basement onsite before the fill is added.
There are way to many viable options to rebuild as is.
Will they ? I doubt it.

[pax]

No, of course not.

But it will be.

pax

[Sean Smith]

Sean, to operate those facilities, people need to live within reach, and have a social and urban infrastructure to support their living there. Without NO, that infrastructure doesn't exist - hence, the city needs to be there.

But not, say, 90% of its population, which has nothing to do with operating said infrastructure.

[coylh]

On a smaller scale, something similar happened to Seattle. http://www.seattletravel.com/seattleundergroundtour.html

You can go on a tour of the "underground" if you visit.

[dasmi]

Or perhaps a new NASCAR track. Then when it fills up again, all they would have to do is pump it out.
Nah, then we could have mock naval battles, like the Romans did.

[Highland Ranger]

It's not like New York City, whose financial paperwork can be done in Omaha or West Bugtussle via electronic communications.

NY/NJ is also a major port.

Having said that the financial companies are moving agressively to pull everything out of New York (and have been since 9/11). Should have done it a long time ago, rather than pay top dollar for real estate and resources.

The big brokerage houses, insurance companies and banks still have their front office activities there, but many if not all have sent people up the hudson into lower NY state and across the river into NJ and PA. The banking industry has a lot of folks in Florida and on Long Island.

Regarding NO - there has to be a way to do the rebuild intelligently and not emotionally.

Ports yes, refineries yes . . . . . but tens of thousands of people living below sea level in hurricane alley - no. This is a needless tragedy and I fear we will see it again in our lifetimes.

[280PLUS]

Flatten it, cover it over and fill the bowl, put a mound on top of THAT and THEN you can put NO in the same spot. Watch what really happens though...

:rolleyes:

[Brandon]

Think about how those levees got there...

They did not build levees and then pump water out, They built the levees as NO sunk.

the rapid deposition of sediment by the mississippi causes tremendous amounts of mass to be added to the area. NO is constantly sinking. Think about the continents moving, the atlantic is widening several centimeters a year. NO is sinking faster than that, in geologic terms thats a lot and it will affect things in our timeframe.

Filling it in would only accelerate the process. (if you could find the dirt)

[R.H. Lee]

By golly, I think Brandon is right. Look at this eerily prophetic warning coincidentally published on September 11, 2001
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282151.html

So it appears no matter how much dirt you put on top, the 'unconsolidated material' underneath will continue to sink.

Here's more:
http://www.time.com/time/reports/mississippi/orleans.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/01/000121071306.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_15_11/ai_68642805

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/581820/posts

[.45Guy]

Ok, let's look at it this way:http://www.geocities.com/usmc_1371_3/dumbass.bmp

Now, seeing the mean elevation of NO is 8 feet below sea level, does it make sense to rebuild it? I'm sure most people here will realize the folly of doing so, but as already stated, we'll most likely see a huge public works project to rebuild. Pretty brilliant.

[longeyes]

It should be rebuilt wherever PRIVATE investors are willing to take the risk of putting their capital and insuring it.

[R.H. Lee]

It might be better to relocate the whole thing north. Up towards Baton Rouge and off the delta. Actually, that would be west, wouldn't it? I don't know the area, never been there. How far northwest do you have to go to get to solid ground and still remain on the Mississippi River?

[Sleeping Dog]

How far northwest do you have to go to get to solid ground and still remain on the Mississippi River

You mean go to where it doesn't flood? Somewhere in Minnesota maybe.

New Orleans would be my second choice for a place to relocate the United Nations building.

Regards.

[Waitone]

Duplicate Commerce City, CA. Theoretically no one live in the town. I suspect it is mostly true. Make NO an industrial city where everyone except bums, homies, and various derelicts are full time residents. Everyone else lives in a burb.

[riverdog]

Just establish building codes that require homes be able to ride out a class 5 hurricane and the storm surge that's appropriate for the building site location. For New Orleans I would add that since there are no guarantees about the levees failing again, no residences would be allowed below high tide. Any construction below sea level would be reinforced concrete.

Do this right and New Orleans could be a very nice place.

Either that, or make it a city of houseboats and floating piers.

[ctdonath]

Should it? obviously not. Just as nobody should have been there ...

... but they were.

NO will be rebuilt. There is far too much $$$ in real estate there. The levee has been plugged, and the area is already being drained (from 80% underwater to 50% in just a day or too) - awfully cheap way to recover already-deeded land.

A little cleanup and a lot of high-priced properties will be available to sell to the next sucker.

[Moon]

New Orleans is located where it is because a commercial need has existed for a port on the mouth of the Mississippi since it was founded in 1712 until the present. The location of the city has everything to do economics and trade, and absolutely nothing to do with arbitrarily living in a marsh.

To those who say move it, please show me where. You can't just "move" an entire city like it is a trailer. And supposing there is some vacant piece of land on the Mississippi just waiting for people to homestead it, why would anyone want to totally rebuild infrastructure from ground up when there is a whole city down the road that just needs repairs?

Another consideration is subsidence. New Orleans is below sea level because it is old and has sunk. The same would be true of any major port the size of New Orleans located in the mouth of the Mississippi. Any any port on the mouth of the river will be vulnerable to hurricanes, unless the port is properly protected. The solution is not to constantly seek high ground to build new ports, but to build a big enough levy system to keep the water out (and maintain a proper system to prevent coastal erosion).

[R.H. Lee]

The location of the city has everything to do economics and trade, and absolutely nothing to do with arbitrarily living in a marsh.

To those who say move it, please show me where. You can't just "move" an entire city like it is a trailer. And supposing there is some vacant piece of land on the Mississippi just waiting for people to homestead it, why would anyone want to totally rebuild infrastructure from ground up when there is a whole city down the road that just needs repairs?
I don't know how much is going to be salvageable after it's been underwater for weeks. Most of the city is wooden structures, correct? How are you going to clean bacteria and toxic chemical laden mud out of everything? Most of what's standing will have to be demolished and carted off. Then, there's soil contamination. You can't put new structures on contaminated soil. The entire place might be a writeoff.

[Moon]

RH,

Good point on the soil issue - I don't have an answer for you there. But no one else does either, as the true extent of the environmental aspect just is not known. The environmentalists are freaking out, and the other side of the spectrum is saying simply pump it all out into the lake. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

As to the wooden structures, no the city is not just old wood houses. It is just like anywhere else. It has old neighborhoods, newer neighborhoods, and new neighborhoods. The downtown area is just like any other medium to large city, with high-rise office towers and condominiums. The 9th Ward, where much of the worst flooding in Orleans took place, is very old. But keep in mind that it is only one neighborhood rather than the entire city. The news is only showing you what is destroyed. Uptown, downtown, the Quarter, Algiers, most all of the Westbank, and most parts of Jefferson Parish are all dry (once again, the media has not really giving an accurate account of those facts).

[drinks]

It has been well known for at least 100 years that N.O. was just a disaster waiting to happen, there have been a few trial runs over the years, anyone with a bit of common sense did not go there to live, crooks, crooked pols, scammers, showboats and the welfare bunch planned to stay as long as possible and then have the GUV bail them out, and W is right on course, just like a Pavlovian reflex, he made the statement"We are going to rebuild beautiful N.O.", we meaning us, the taxpayers, not W and his buddies, of course if Commie Kerry were prez, he would be saying the same thing and meaning the same thing.
I can only speak of what Texas has done in the past,as I am a lifelong resident, as previously stated, Galveston residents jacked up what was left and raised the place 16', plus built a very decent,at that time state of the art, seawall.
Indianola, at the time , the largest port in the gulf, only had to be blown away 2 times for the place to be permanately vacated.
Most of the Texas coast is behind a barrier island and the land does rise to 15-25 feet quickly.
The places that have serious exposure, with the notable exception of South Padre Island, are mostly either cheap frame construction or on fill or pilings, either one is not a big loss or expensive to replace, South Padre Island is going to be a major disaster when a 4 or 5 hits it, but it was developed by and for northerners, people with no idea of what they were doing.
I have no problem with anyone living where they want, I am just opposed to them expecting everyone else to take care of them when their ignorance and /or stupidity catches up with them.
What ever happened to taking care of yourself? :banghead:

[longeyes]

Whatever they do, make sure everyone who lives there has an inflatable rubber life raft in the attic and a blow-off roof. Or people could live in houseboats or arks.

[GunGoBoom]

It should be rebuilt wherever PRIVATE investors are willing to take the risk of putting their capital and insuring it

+1.

[AZLibertarian]

As Art and others have said, New Orleans is the mouth of the breadbasket of this country. NO--or some version of it will be rebuilt; we can't afford not to rebuild.

If you're looking for it, there will be tons of blame to go around. But most of it will be less than productive. You can plan for a Cat 4/5 hurricane to decimate a city; you can plan for a terrorist WMD to leave us with thousands of casualties and square miles of devestation; you can even plan to mitigate the damage from an asteroid striking a population center. The key however, is how much money are you willing to invest today into these one-per-500-year events. Certainly, NO was unprepared for this event. Their politicians are famous for their corruption (beyond the corruption that goes along with all politicians). The welfare state has bred generations who know nothing but how to hold their hands out and to offer us excuses as to why they're unable to be productive.

I don't have the first idea of how to approach this, but one thing that I think we ought to consider is a long-term shift of the shipping to the Atchafalaya. For those who don't know, the Mississippi isn't even supposed to be in New Orleans. The river "wants" to flow down what is now called the Atchafalaya, which comes off the Mississippi about a hundred miles upsteam and outputs into the Gulf west of N.O. The Corps of Engineers dumps tons of rocks there regularly to keep the river flowing through N.O.. You can google up "Atchafalaya" to start this, but here's (http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/oldriver.htm) a one-page explaination. hell were they thinking--that they could divert a river forever with no consequences?"]

[confed sailor]

though holland does not see tropical cyclones like our hurricaines. the storms that blow south off the north sea, are just as wicked if not more so. and the dutch learned, in the mid-50's they were hammered by just such a storm. in response they rebuilt the dykes and made them higher and stronger. New Orleans has been living in denial (actually de-mississippi) and i hate to say i told you so, but.....

and dont tell a Floridian, South Carolinian, or North Carolinian we dont know what its like, Hugo, Andrew, Bertha, Floyd,,, belive me we feel your pain.
when Charleston was smashed by Hugo in '89. we rebuilt, and we are still here

[riverdog]

Denial is a river in Louisiana ;)

[cropcirclewalker]

I say that unless we live in Loosiana or NO, we don't have a say.

Whatever they can afford.

Just as a casual observer though, I would counsel against putting in a subway system. :uhoh:

[cuchulainn]

Venice has some very beautiful canals.

http://www.tours-italy.com/images/common/venice_maps.gif
Venice Italy

[R.H. Lee]

Viena has some very beautiful canals You probably mean Venice, Italy. The problem with the Mississippi delta is subsidence of the land due to the deposited uncompacted material laid down by the river, as I understand it. Anything you build on top will sink.

[cuchulainn]

RH --

I beat you to the correction ;)

Venice is sinking about 1/2 - 1-1/2 inches a century.


Corrected: changed sinking amount.

[MikeIsaj]

It will be rebuilt if for no other reason than we lack the commoon sense to see the foolishness of it all.

Here's a prediction; The federal government is going to put pressure on the state and city to elevate homes or buy out the land for "parks."

Up here we have had the Delaware recently flood twice. In addition the Neshaminy creek also floods regularly. The government is now encouraging landowners to either elevate their homes or sell the land to the county. They are taking a proactive approach to dealing with the next flood. Not sure if it's a good idea or bad. It's just out there as what appears to be the latest approach to these problems.

[JohnBT]

By the time they bulldoze most of it won't it be higher? Maybe not high enough, but it would help.

JT

[Highland Ranger]

but it was developed by and for northerners, people with no idea of what they were doing.

Since I started the discussion, I am going to have to cite that as a silly statement.

All humans have short memories as you soon see in NO.

(city in the south)

[ken grant]

Where in the USA can you get building permits to build on floodplains or wetlands?

[F4GIB]

NOLA should not be rebuilt. Not with a penny of my money whether it's from an insurance policy (raising MY rates) or from federal funds (raising MY taxes).

As Forrest Gump says "Stupid is as Stupid does."

[Highland Ranger]

Where in the USA can you get building permits to build on floodplains or wetlands?

In New Orleans . . . . . and I think a lot of other places where communities already exist.

[72Rover]

Where in the USA can you get building permits to build on floodplains or wetlands?[


In New Orleans . . . . . and I think a lot of other places where communities already exist.

Indeed.

Local example would be the village of Poquoson. Built a century or more ago by fishermen who wanted to be close to their source of livelihood, most of the area is only 5' above sea level. When Isabel came through two years ago - and at or just barely under Cat 1 when it did - there was a 7-8' surge. Lotsa homes got wet. FEMA moved in (literally) with mandates that reconstruction be at 12 or 14' ASL. SOP was to use 4 x 4 cribbing to elevate the house while a new foundation could be built underneath. Money/time/contractors seem to have run out - to Florida and the Gulf Coast? Over half the homes still stand on temporary cribbing...it's a bizzare 'look'....