Laser Grips - Limited Tactical Value?

[Werewolf]

OK - I admit it. I bought the hype, the hollywood BS and worst of all the slick willie ads in the NRA's American Rifleman. I bought a set of laser grips about 3 months ago. Crimson Trace 205's - cost me $199 + Tax. Been practicing with them (dry fire and range) regularly since buying them.

What a dummy. I envisioned an easy to see dot at ranges out to 100 yards (:D like I said - I bought the Hollywood BS - shame on me), quick to pickup and the bullet goes where the dot points. !NOT!

I am sure that the CT Laser Grips work well for their intended purpose for some folks but not for me. Wasted money as far as I am concerned.

2 mw laser is for all practical purposes invisible during the day if the sun is shining. It's visible out to about 10 yards just barely on a dark target but nearly invisible on a light background. For me at least it disappears at 25 yards on a bright day regardless of the target's color. In the shade it's good out to 25 yards - if I can find the dot and that is one big if (and yes the laser is co-witnessed with the iron's - set to 50').

It becomes more visible at dawn or dusk or on cloudy days but you've got to know where to look which for me at least means using the sights (co-witnessed). If I've got to use the sights then I might as well - [sigh] - use the sights.

In low light conditions or the dark the laser is visible way out there. Yay! NOT!

In a real life situation in the dark or low light conditions you might as well paint a flourescent bullseye on your self and shout out to the gobln - hey! Here I am - over here - shoot me!

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I can't pick up that dot quick for the life of me (and it might - god forbid - actually be necessary someday - maybe - hope not).

I've practiced and practiced - just cannot get the hang of using that darned laser.

To be fair I've got the grips mounted on a S&W M638 1 7/8" bbl gun. Sooooo - losing the dot after 15 yards or so really isn't a big deal tactically speaking but not being able to find the darn thing is.

So for me the laser grips are not too useful at all - in fact they're down right dangerous. Iron sights on my handguns will stay the norm.

Laser Grips - relegated to the status of gee golly - what a cool toy for me.

[Mannlicher]

The value of CT laser grips is in close range, low light situations. They were never intended to allow you to shoot pinpoint target stuff at 100 yards. Since most of the time a confrontation takes place in low light, close in, and wicked quick. Thats the enviroment in which the CT laser excells.

[Preacherman]

Ditto Mannlicher. I have CT's on all of my carry snubs, and they're carried in a pocket holster. If I'm accosted at close quarters, I may not have time to get the gun up to my eyes to use the sights, and may even be fending off an attacker as I draw. The dot is there to let me put the gun on target and shoot without worrying about the sights. Also, in an indoor situation under artificial light, the dot is much more visible - I could take a head-shot at 25 yards if I had to, without sights. The CT definitely has its place.

PS - if you want to sell your LG-205's, please PM me, and if the price is OK, I'll take them!

[444]

"Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I can't pick up that dot quick for the life of me"

I agree, I think it is you.
No offense intended.

[DigitalWarrior]

I definitely see the laser in broad day light at 50 yards (on everything except red) easily. Maybe, try changing the batteries.

YMMV
DW

[pax]

In a real life situation in the dark or low light conditions you might as well paint a flourescent bullseye on your self and shout out to the gobln - hey! Here I am - over here - shoot me!
The proper time to allow the laser to come on is while the gun is being raised to the target, immediately before you shoot.

If it is on at any other time, you're doing it wrong and you might as well paint a flourescent bullseye on yourself and shout out to the goblin -- "Hey! Here I am! Over here! Shoot me!"

The laser cannot give away your position if you're using it correctly.

That said, you do have to learn to trust the thing before it's going to do you much good in a pinch. It takes time & training to get used to using it instead of just ignoring it.

As others said above, it's intended for close-in, fast work in dim or indoors lighting. That's where the laser really shines. ;)

pax

When asked whether his vision was an impediment in the gunfight, he [Harvey Faulk] answered, "I wasn't trying to see him clearly. What I was trying to do was save my life." -- from a newspaper article about a one-eyed man who shot an armed intruder

[Derek Zeanah]

I need some of these for my J-frame.

PM me with what you want for 'em.

[Wastemore]

I'd much rather be well versed at point-shooting. Can't imagine trying to ocularly chase a red-dot around a fella's chest with my hands shaking while he's on the fast approach.

[Werewolf]

Guys. Guys.

I never said I wanted to sell them. They're a cool toy but so far for me at least not for practical use.

If nothing else they're helping me to become better at point shooting. I draw point and turn the laser on to see where I would have hit. The laser works good for that though I still don't have the skill to draw, point, turn on laser to verify point and shoot. The laser screws up my rhythm for some reason - trying to acquire the dot is the problem. If I get better at the point process then the dot will probably start showing up where I expect it to.

Y'all make some good points but I'm still sitting on the fence concerning a laser sight's efficacy in a CQB situation.

But then practice makes perfect - or in my case - better - slowly...

[bakert]

I agree with Wastemore. A number of years ago Taurus brought out A model with a red dot sight mounted under the gun. The guys at the gun range turned most of the lights out and tried shooting with it at 7 to 10 yds. These young men were all pretty darned good shots and none of them did very well with it. Maybe with practice but I'll stay with point shooting for very close range myself. If your gun is hanging on the BGs belt buckle it's time to pull the trigger.

[pax]

I'd much rather be well versed at point-shooting. Can't imagine trying to ocularly chase a red-dot around a fella's chest with my hands shaking while he's on the fast approach.
That's not an either-or situation.

If you're good at point shooting, the appearance of the laser centered on your target simply and easily confirms that your shot will hit where you intend it to -- making your hits even more precise and consistent than they can be with point shooting alone.

Not only so, but the laser enables your eyes to do what they want to do naturally under stress anyway: fix themselves on the threat. There's no "chasing" the red dot. Especially if you're a point-shooter, that dot is simply there, where you're looking.

***

The laser works good for that though I still don't have the skill to draw, point, turn on laser to verify point and shoot.

Werewolf,

:confused: With CTs, the laser is supposed to simply come on naturally as you tighten your grip to fire. If you're having to think of turning the laser on as a separate, distinct action, there's something going wrong somewhere.

pax

Progress might have been all right once but it has gone on too long. -- Ogden

[Wastemore]

That's not an either-or situation.

If you're good at point shooting, the appearance of the laser centered on your target simply and easily confirms that your shot will hit where you intend it to -- making your hits even more precise and consistent than they can be with point shooting alone.

Not only so, but the laser enables your eyes to do what they want to do naturally under stress anyway: fix themselves on the threat. There's no "chasing" the red dot. Especially if you're a point-shooter, that dot is simply there, where you're looking.

Perhaps I'm a weird breed. I can only imagine that dot serving as a distraction while trying to focus on center mass. Imagine drawing on a BG and being distratcted by that laser wiggling around his torso.I think it would create bad point-shooting habits by involuntarily forcing you to try to aim with your wrist/arms instead of your hips if the dot goes off target. I'm sure you know this, but , Point shooting doesn't require .5 inch groups@ 20 yards. It requires that the shots land somewhere in a 2ftx2ft square at 1-5 yards. trying to focus on the BG and the dot in an already stressful and confusing situation is too much info for me to process. Why create two focal points when you can have one?
Of course this is just my opinion and I'm sure there are others out there who are able to process all of that info. I might be able to while tense, but I'm not going to count on it.

I'm one of those KISS people, I guess.

B-

[Jeff White]

Werewolf,
You still have to present your weapon normally as if you were going to use the sights. It sounds to me like you are pointing your weapon and trying to find the laser on the target.

If you do your normal draw stroke, and activate the laser as you are bringing the weapon on target you should see it just jump out at you. If you try to use the laser from retention position at a close target or rely on it to allow you to shoot from the hip, you'll be looking all over the place for the dot. Make sure the dot will be in your field of view before you activate the laser and you'll see how fast it is.

Jeff

[Sheldon J]

Laser grips have improved my wife's shooting abilities immeasurably. She literly could not hit a 11"x14" target at 15' now she shoots steel plates at 50'. The laser has given her the confidence she has been needing, hence her accuracy improvement. She can draw from her bag and shoot center ring as soon as her gun clears with out ever pulling up to aim. This will giver her a serious advantage if she ever needs it. The laser grips that I paid a good sum for has been well worth the investment. :evil:

[Werewolf]

It sounds to me like you are pointing your weapon and trying to find the laser on the target.That's exactly what I'm doing.If you do your normal draw stroke, and activate the laser as you are bringing the weapon on target you should see it just jump out at you.Good Advice... I'll give that a try.

[HankB]

Ditto what Preacherman said . . .

[444]

While this is slightly off topic, keep in mind that having a set of laser grips on your handgun just gives you one more option. If you are a point shooter, or if you want to use your iron sights, fine, nothing changes. But, the laser is there if you want/need it. Practice will tell you when and how it might be useful to you.

[MBane666]

Sorry you missed the SHOOTING GALLERY episode on using lasers!

As stated by others on this thread, lasers are simply another sighting option to add to your personal "toolbox." This season we've been expanding on the idea that toolbox, taking a serious look at point shooting, etc., as well as lasers and traditional aimed fire.

Lasers really shine (big pun...sorry) when shooting from awkward positions or if the strong hand is disabled, or in up-close speed shooting.

My bedroom and carry guns all have CT Laser Grips on then and have had since there were Laser Grips! Ecept for my hapless SIG 225...I was unable to coonvince CT to make me a one-off set of grips for the little SIG. I suppose I'll have to eventually switch to a 228/229. Sigh...

mb

PS: We have another laser show in the works, built around the Laser Master Certification Course offered at the Firearms Academy of Seattle

[MICHAEL T]

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I can't pick up that dot quick for the life of me (and it might - god forbid - actually be necessary someday - maybe - hope not).


Thank you ! I also can't pick up dot fast ,then I want to move it to just the right spot instead of fireing. Old fashion sights are faster for me and if in close Guess I'll just do what was done for years Point Shoot.
I also can't use a shift light I perfer to watch the needle on a tach. Sometimes the old way are still best for some people.

[Sheldon J]

It almost sounds as though you are not getting in enough practice in point and shooting. Make sure that when you are holding your gun that lines up with your arm. I have seen many hold their gun cocked at an angle in their hand. Holding it consistantly the same way every time then learning to hit your target comfortably, don't over think your shot. You sound too tense at the range.

[bubbygator]

I have 5 CT's. All the weaknesses & strengths mentioned here have been discussed on the CT Forum. If the CT doesn't turn your crank, there are plenty of people waiting to take it off your hands. You shouldn't use a SD device with which you're not totally comfortable.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Since I received a J-frame model 36 from my Dad I've been thinking about sticking some CT's on it. If nothing else, the laser can be a 'strong visual aid', after a fashion, in more ways than one.


When I 'did the range' portion of my CHL, the guy next to me on the line had a really, really nice Kimber with a laser on it (one of those guide rod replacement types). It was great for the first three rapid fire shots on the indoor range until the powder residue and smoke made the refracted backscatter so bad he couldn't continue until the smoke dissipated. I've always tempered my desire to run out and buy a laser for a pistol against that experience. Maybe I will...maybe I won't.


Regards,
Rabbit.

[Preacherman]

Texas Wabbit, don't let the smoke effect put you off. The whole point of these lasers is to get the first couple of shots in fast, on target, when you don't have space or time to aim. That's why they're on my pocket snubbies. I can draw off-balance, even lying on the floor, put the dot where I want it, and launch a pair of Speer 135gr. Gold Dot's into my assailant without ever having to use the sights, and if necessary while fending him off with my legs and left arm. It's in situations like that that the laser really shines (pun intended! :D ). Also, if I have to take a hostage shot at distance with a gun like a snubby, where the sights are minimal at best, I'm pretty sure of a head shot (even on a partly obscured head) at 25 yards - if I can put the dot on it, I can hit it.

[cracked butt]

I thought they were kind of gimmicky until I actually saw one in action. A guy brought a 1911 with CT grips to a pistol competition last year and I was instantly convinced that if my state every passes CCW, the lazer grips will be one of my first purchases.

[Willyboi]

Waste of money!! Nobody uses them in the SOF communities.. Why should you? Point of Aim practice, good combat grip, and low light level practice.. If you can't get the low light level practice..

1. It may sound dangerous but bring the taget in close 3 to 5 yards out... your going to need a buddy on this one. Close your eyes. With you buddy behind you (making sure you don't shoot up the range, friend, or self.) Bring up the gun don't shoot the first couple of times just see where your aiming at... This part you could do at home with a target. What you want is the muscle memory of about 3.5 to 4 feet high at 5 yards. Then load one round and fire it.. keep that going for a while, but dont get complacent! Know that your arms are locked out. At this range it wont matter that they are locked out. Last thing you need is a round going off near your head. Then make fast double taps..

2. If you dont have kids or nieghbors try this one..

This one has to be done at an outdoor range. Bring the gun in with two hands at your belly button start pushing the gun out and level and start firing..bring the gun up to where you think is 3.5 to 4 at 5 yards.. fire two more rounds then stop... You should have at least 2 rounds on target. In a real situation that person would be covering or dying. The real trick is making sure they are down hard! hahahaha

3. If they are closer than 7 yards take um..if not "Hide". You can't see what they got anyway in the dark night. They may have a flash light and a gun, blind you, and bam... They may have better night vision before the fight than you. They may be trained to operate in those conditions .. Don't take risks, Unless you have too!!


Willyboi
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

[pax]

Willyboi ~

I have regular access to a low light range, and practice in dim & no light fairly often.

In a building so dark that I cannot see my front sight, I am able to draw and hit three IPSC targets in the C zone in less than 3 seconds, at five yards. My low light draw & fires -- hitting the A-zone of an IPSC target at 5 yards -- generally take less than 1.8 seconds from concealment. That's without the laser, and I can do this all day long. These aren't my best numbers, but simply the average. On my best day I'm a little faster.

I tell you this not to brag, but simply to make some observations:

1) I am considerably faster at low light shooting with the laser than I am without it. (Of course I practice both. Foolish not to.)

2) While I can always hit C zones on multiples without the laser, and without the laser I catch the A zone doing multiples about 3/4ths the time, with a laser I always hit dead center of the A zone when I'm doing multiples. My hits are better and more consistent with the laser than without.

3) Shooting moving targets in the dark, I can usually but not always hit the C zone without the laser. About 25% of the time I hit A zone, about 25% of the time I get D zone, and about 50% of the time I get C zone. That doesn't sound too bad, until you realize that a moving target on the range moves smoothly and predictably, compared to the jerky, unpredictable movement of a human being in real life. With a laser, I can always hit C zone or better, and 90% of the time my hits will be in the A zone. (Oh, distance? Five to seven yards, somewhere in there.)

4) Around barricades, I am so much faster and less fumbly with the laser than I am without it that it simply beggars description.

So I'm not a bad shooter in low light. But with a laser in low light, I'm better. My hits are faster, better, and more consistent. I'm quicker on target and when the targets are scored, my scores are far better.

I dunno about you, but I don't care what the FOF guys do. I only care what I can do. Anything I can do to increase the safety of my family while decreasing the safety of the bad guy, I'm going to do.

Oh, incidentally -- there's another option for low-light practice in full light. Take a pair of cheap eye protection goggles, get a can of spray paint, and spray a light layer of paint over the lenses from about two feet away. Make it just thick enough to block most the light, but thin enough that you can see only the outline of your gun at arm's distance. You can mix colors of paint if you want to; that seems to work a little better because it gives a "shadowy" feeling. Mimics low-light conditions pretty well.

pax

[ctdonath]

How reliable is the LaserMax sight on a Glock?
I'd like to add one to my carry gun, but for reliability reasons want to ensure it WILL work, at least as a recoil spring. Too many gizmos fail when needed.

[Poodleshooter]

ctdonath: Try a search here and particularly on Glocktalk.com for a number of personal reviews on the laser max in Glocks.
I did this recently. There's a lot of opinions on them,and they're quite mixed. Some folks prefer the Crimson Trace equipment instead.

[black bear]

I can be behind a barricade or a door, looking thru a little peep hole or the crack between the hinges with only my gun hand showing and shoot very accurately thanks to that BLESSED red dot.

To me this is the best tactical low light gunfigthing tool ever devised.

I have one of the latest model in my Gov't .45 which is loaded with Federal Hydra-Shock 230 grains, with this and one of my modded flashlights outputting 951 lumens or the shorter one outputting 678 lumens I own the night.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/pistolFlash.jpg

Best regards
black bear

[Jeff White]

Willyboi said;
Waste of money!! Nobody uses them in the SOF communities..

What's your source of this information? The CT grip have an NSN and I know someone in Army SOF who has remarked on how effective they are in Iraq. Said that they were particularly intimidating and that the Iraqis got especially compliant when illumintated with the laser. They also seem to fear soldiers armed with pistols more then rifles. That goes back to the Saddam days when the pistol was a badge of rank in Saddam's security forces and those carrying pistols were more likely to shoot someone out of hand then a soldier armed with a rifle.

I used to be of the opinion that lasers were fun toys, but had little tactical application unless you were using them as your primary sighting tool while wearing nods. But after having played with one, talked to some tier one trainers, and observed how they can be used to allow you to shoot accurately from unconventional firing positions, I'm sold. Don't have one on my duty weapon yet, (can't make myself give up the Gunner Grips, but have heard rumors about CT working on something new in that area) but I can see the utility of them for more then use with NODs and as a training tool.

black bear said;
I have one of the latest model in my Gov't .45 which is loaded with Federal Hydra-Shock 230 grains, with this and one of my modded flashlights outputting 951 lumens or the shorter one outputting 678 lumens I own the night.

Any problems with the laser washing out on a light background that's illuminated by those very bright lights?

Jeff

[Sheldon J]

What he said, that and my cat loves to play catch the dot. :D One more thing, no problem with wash out on my M6X, and you do own the night. :evil:

[happy old sailor]

i favor lasers. tells me a lot about whats going on with my muzzle. with the laser sighted in to point of aim, it points where the muzzle points. if the dot is all over the place, so is the muzzle and shots fired will be also.

some thoughtful practice always helps, shooting is not practice, practice is practice. a learning curve thing. if you are just blasting away without learning, you are digging a hole that you eventually can not climb out of, get disgusted with shooting and give it up for golf.

always remember and think - the gun shoots where you point it. if the shot goes in the dirt, you put it there, not the sights, not the gun, you did it.

[black bear]

Jeff White,
Not problem with wash out effect, the dot is seen plenty, who is not seeing is the guy that get hit by 951 lumens or even the 500 lumens of the Surefire M-6.
I am advocating lots of lumens in defensive flashlights because in my experience you can not control the size of the place you are going to search (or clear).
What about if you find yourself in a warehouse or a Theater where you have to reach 20 yards with your light to identify what is that moving shadow over there.
If the light is not powerful enough to show you clear what this is, you could be thinking that is a bad guy, but could be a nun.

Or that man over there could be holding a cell phone, while due to bad light you think he have a pistol!!

Especially with the new LED's light that many people call tactical and in my opinion don't have the reach for illuminating at 20 yards.
Let’s take the most popular of them, a Surefire L-4 Digital Lumamax at 60 lumens considered a "tactical" light.
And let’s take the distance that we have been discussing, 20 yards.
Let me show you what you see at 20 yards with the Surefire L-4 and let me show you what the Surefire M-6 can show you at the same distance.

This is a target located at 20 meters.

This is the Beamshot of the Surefire L-4 (60 lumens)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/L-4at20meters.jpg

This is the Surefire M-6 (500 lumens lamp)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/blackbear11784/SurefireM-6at20meters.jpg

Now do you realize the importance of having the proper powerful light??

Anybody looking at a 500 lumens from a Surefire M-6 or at 951 lumens from one of my modifications is going to be blinded, especially if he has been lurking in the dark with dark adapted eyes!!
You can use the extra time that you will have to evaluate the situation and decide your course of action.
The Laser will be a great aid as you have the guy covered without obstructing your vision with your own arms, and the laser will free you of the tunnel vision that concentrating in the sight cause.

The equipment is there, you have to ask yourself if your life (that you are risking) is worth the price of the Crimson Trace laser grips or of the MEGA light.

Regards
black bear

[crofrog]

Don't have one on my duty weapon yet, (can't make myself give up the Gunner Grips, but have heard rumors about CT working on something new in that area) but I can see the utility of them for more then use with NODs and as a training tool.



Check out the laser max guide rods.
http://lasermax.com/products/images/lms-1911b.jpg

http://lasermax.com

Chris

[Jeff White]

I don't know anyone who's had satisfactory performance from a guide rod laser.

The Crimson Trace laser grips are the best option out there. Very unobtrusive and reliable.

black bear,
Outside of some wasted time and frustraion with an Insights Technology HK UTL, I've run SureFire 6v systems on my duty weapons. I'm currently using a 6v classic system on the 6920 and an X200 on my Kimber Warrior.

Jeff

[jfruser]

Waste of money!! Nobody uses them in the SOF communities..
They may be a waste of money. It depends on your use/misuse of the visible laser and your circumstances. I have not yet shelled out my own cash to buy one for myself, FWIW.

Nobody in SOF may use them right now, though I doubt that as I can tell you that they were in use in 1999, when I got out. Both for pistols (M9) and carbines (M4A1) as part of the SOPMod kit for the M4A1. The kit included a visible laser intended to be mounted on the Picatinny rails. The use was not universal, however.

The utility of the visible laser on the carbine was not nearly as significant as the utility of visible laser on the pistol. Most did not want both a AN/PEQ-2 and a visible laser on their M4A1.

One last note: if SOF does use something does not necessarily make it useful for Joe Citizen and if SOF does not use something does not mean that Joe Citizen won't find it useful. I have yet to find a use for, say, glint tape since I got out. Also, I have no use for that abortion of gear used to rig up a ruck for jumps <shudders>.

SOF & Joe Citizen likely have different objectives and different requirements.