[rick_reno]

I don't subscribe to any gun magazines, but this subject is getting a lot of air time over on the biggerhammer forum. If one of you has the magazine (our library doesn't get it) could you post what was written about the 50 caliber that has these folks so upset. Having not seen the column - here is what one poster wrote about it.

I just got my latest edition of Guns & Ammo and went to the Col.'s section in the back, he was commenting on the Steyer single shot and issues, the jumps to stating there is really not much use for a 50, then states an inferance about seeing a plane shot down with only one half inch hole in it, one time in his career. Perhaps we should all thank him for jumping ship.

Here's a well written letter a subscriber wrote to Guns and Ammo -

To whom it may concern,

Effective immediately please cancel my subscription to your anti .50 BMG magazine. Mr. Coopers two cents is not well taken, as he commented on .50 cal rifle owners. It would seem a magazine of your kind would be pro firearm regardless of the gun. However it would seem if you endorse his opinion, what else are you going to endorse? These bans started with small comments like this, that grow into monsters that strip the very constitution down to nothing but opinions, that are sent to and fro depending on which way the political wind is blowing.

Further more you should advise Mr. Cooper that in his next corner he should sell his car if it is over forty horse power, because the only reason someone needs to go more than the speed limit, is because the car will do it, therefore this is not needed. He should also sell his home if it has more than 1200 sq. feet. I mean how much room is really needed to live? I could go on and on about all the things we as free American’s can buy because we damn well feel like it.

Oh yeah, about the planes? In WWII, which full automatic Browning .50 cals mounted on the naval ships firing tracer rounds at what, every five or so? How many planes actually got shot down? Not as many as you would think, but hey I am sure all us law abiding gun owners who read your magazine will be shooting down planes with our fifty single shots that are around thirty plus pounds a piece.

Not only were the comments irresponsible, they were completely unfounded, and due to your lack of editing skills you have lost a loyal customer of over ten years. Enclosed is the last three years of magazines as I would not use them to wipe my ass with.

You should title your magazine “Guns and Ammo selling out America.”

[boofus]

Maybe Cooper was railing against single shot .50BMG rifles? I can see the advantages of semi-auto and full-auto over the single shot non-magazine fed rifles. It sounds to me he might be saying 1 single .50cal hit is so unlikely to bring down a plane that he's only seen it done once in 40 years or whatever.

Can't tell for sure without seeing the article.

[Moonclip]

While I respect some of the Colonels opinions, others sometimes are quite odd such as his disdain for hollowpoint ammo and the scount rifle package over a modern battle of assault rifle.

[iamkris]

I haven't seen the article either. He did mention in G&A that the .50 GI 1911 seemed like an answer in search of a problem (we do it because we can, not for a reason).

As much as the man has contributed to the sport, we are probably getting to the point where he would be better to maybe be a bit less...umm...vocal. His constant prattling on about the Steyr Scout and the recent bizarre fascination with the word digital is frankly embarrassing.

My opinion only...there are those that overlook that in their worship of him.

[del4]

..."but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things or for. If he wants it, he might as well have it,as long as he can afford it." This was the excerpt from the Guns and Ammo "Thoughts From The Gunner's Guru" you were talking about.

That doesn't sound like he is against anyone owning one, it just has "limited utility". I agree.

[Gordon]

My Light .50 is useless as nipples on a boar for 99% of the rea; world posiibilities. You CANNOT fire one from standing with any effect, you cannot run with one either. You don't wanna be climbing any slopes with one any distance, so what are you gonna do, shoot from a fixed or mounted position. Won't work for hunting, I tried and it was a stupid deal. When you hit about 20 pounds a rifle becomes a 'crew served weapon' IMHO. Where as a .470 Nitro at 12 pounds or a .577 at 15 pounds can still be fielded, for instance, and that's his point I believe. Along with a 14 pound .338 Lapua that is effective at a mile and weighs 16pounds or less. ;)

[ClarkEMyers]

From Colonel Cooper this very year of our Lord 2005:
....The 50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it.Those of us who have used the 50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about these things......
There is a reason for the 50 BMG in a handheld weapon, and that is the breaking up of mechanical equipment at middle ranges. It is a great truck wrecker, using the military round, but this does not apply to the big game hunter.,,,,
The 50 BMG and the 700 Nitro are interesting experimental developments, but that is as far as it goes. The serious big game hunter has scant use for either of these rounds.

To the best of my knowledge and belief Colonel Cooper has no disdain for hollow point ammunition nor does he advocate the Scout over a battle rifle as part of an infantry fire team.

Colonel Cooper does say that based on his experience and observation that over 200 grains, over .40 caliber and over 1000 fps is better for self defense and that ball can be counted on to feed. Consider the 9mm Super Cooper as an example of the proper place of trick bullets. (I've been known to carry a 9X23 myself with of course Winchester Silvertip).

Further Cooper says, correctly in my experience, that the Scout rifle is great for general purpose use by the single user. I currently own both a Steyr Scout and the Dragoon pseudo-scout in .376 Steyr and find them extremely satisfactory for their intended range of use.

I have handled military assault rifles and rifles like the Stg57 when it was first adopted in Switzerland to fill a designated marksman role nothing to do with assault despite the name. As close as I come to owning an assault rifle is a Colt 6920 - I do not consider the Colt and the Steyr for the same purposes - horses for courses.

Certainly once one defines a specific purpose it is quite easy to find a rifle that meets that purpose better than a general purpose rifle. Cooper may or may not be correct in suggesting the "Thumper" for the general purpose infantry weapon but he nowhere to my knowledge suggests the Scout, or any bolt rifle, is a good idea for the infantry squad.

Remember that Cooper describes the shower of golden brass from Navy fighters making passes over the beach as one of the most beautiful sights in the world and figure he is fully entitled to an opinion on the .50 BMG.

[Art Eatman]

The good colonel uses polysyllabic words, which makes comprehension difficult for some...

Basically, he's just saying that if you want one, get one. Enjoy it. It's a fun toy. There is nothing wrong with toys. But, they're still just toys. What's to argue with? Or care about?

:), Art

[CaesarI]

I read Cooper's Commentaries online, the version in G&A is usually edited.

Nothing Cooper has ever said can be correctly interpreted as supporting the outlawing of any sort of firearm.

Cooper does, on many occasions, state that he does not like/own/"see a reason for" a particular firearm. The difference is significant.

In "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth" Cooper has an essay entitled "This Matter of Image. In this essay he states
Perhaps more pungently, I have little interest in hand-held automatic weapons, but I deeply resent the efforts on the part of some lawmakers to paint full-automatic fire as some sort of sin.
The rest of the essay essentially revolves around that idea, and making the case that giving up some firearms to the gun-grabbers is a foolish and non-productive political strategy.

If we're all going to gang up and condemn Cooper, let's try and do so for accurate reasons, rather than hastily concluding that he supports gun-control because he doesn't like a particular firearm.

-Morgan

[buzz meeks]

Good posts, Art, Clark and Caesar.

[Dienekes]

I have been reading his "Commentaries" in original format for around fifteen years now. Some parts, such as African politics and Scout promotion, I just skip over. I'm just not interested. Sometimes I flat disagree. So?

But I will say this--I first read his work in 1959, and there are very, very few people in the shooting world who have written as well about as many things as he has.

He is well along in years now. His replacement is nowhere in sight.

[artherd]

Light .50 is useless as nipples on a boar for 99% of the rea; world posiibilities. You CANNOT fire one from standing with any effect, you cannot run with one either. You don't wanna be climbing any slopes with one any distance, so what are you gonna do, shoot from a fixed or mounted position. Won't work for hunting, I tried and it was a stupid deal. When you hit about 20 pounds a rifle becomes a 'crew served weapon' IMHO. Where as a .470 Nitro at 12 pounds or a .577 at 15 pounds can still be fielded, for instance, and that's his point I believe. Along with a 14 pound .338 Lapua that is effective at a mile and weighs 16pounds or less.

I sorta agree with you. Except I can fire my Barrett standing offhand with, uh, emergency accuracy (ie hit a 12" steel target at 200yds about once every 2-3 seconds. With 1/10th of a POUND of lead each time...)

I wouldn't want to have to move very far with a 35lb gun though, and yes you want to be on the ground on the bipod to shoot 1000yds! It's also not the most accurate gun I own by a good margin. 2MOA or so. It *IS* the consumate truck-wreker!

I also own a .338LM, and at 14lbs with scope&bipod, it's heavy but manageable as a hunting (and hunting *anything*, with a 250gr at over 3,000fps!) type of gun with a similar effective range of the .50 (albit 1/3rd of the muzzle energy!)

[c_yeager]

I dont particularly agree with much that Cooper has to say, but the man didnt say a damn thing that would imply that he is in favor of any restriction to the right to own a .50

In fact he makes it pretty clear that one doesnt NEED a reason. He makes some perfectly valid points considering the actual utility of the weapon TO THE BIG GAME HUNTER, and thats it.

Im having a hard time understanding what your gripe is about. Do you have a problem with someone saying that the .50 BMG isnt that usefull for hunting? If i were to say that the .50bmg is a poor choice for hunting ducks, would that upset you?

[BigG]

http://users.skynet.be/fa023784/Images/Troll_Art/RL.jpg

[texagun]

.

[Rockstar]

I think Art's hit the nail on the head! It REALLY is just a toy. I don't want one, but I sure don't want to stop anybody else from getting one.

[halvey]

Now, what did he exactly say that is anti-gun? :rolleyes:

[thereisnospoon]

I believe the originial poster may have been misinterpreting the good Col. :rolleyes:

[50 Shooter]

It's not what he said, it's how he said it.

Tell me some dipdunk from the VPC won't add it to their list. It was over two seperate months that his opinions were printed. Rick printed part of what he said the first time, stating that there isn't much use for a .50. Clark printed part of what was printed in this month's G&A about how the .50 doesn't apply to the big game hunter.

Sorry but both of his statements can be used to argue that there is no need for the .50. Remember, he's the "guru" and he should know. I'm sure that's how the VPC and the likes will print it out.

[El Tejon]

No, it's a message to our friends in California. Lots of calibers can do the job on the .50USMG. Seek alternatives, friends. :D

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Sorry but both of his statements can be used to argue that there is no need for the .50. Remember, he's the "guru" and he should know. I'm sure that's how the VPC and the likes will print it out.So he's supposed to predict the response of irrational gun-grabbers and edit his opinions accordingly? :rolleyes:

There is NOTHING that a pro-gun expert can say that they crazies at VPC won't disagree with. Best thing for him to do is say what he believes, without regard to how others will react.

In fact, his willingness to do just that is why so many people read him.

[50 Shooter]

Yeah, for those of us trapped behind the iron curtain there's three different rounds. .50 DTC, .50 Spotter and the new 14.5mm JDJ round.

[El Tejon]

Hoozah! :cool:

[Gunpacker]

Our 1st Ammendment allows Jeff Cooper his opinion on anything. I have never seen the person that I agree with 100%. That said, I think some folks just jump off the deep end whenever someone says anything they disagree with. If Jeff advocated regulation or prohibition, I can see where there would be reason to scream. As for "need", most of us own guns that we don't "need". Question is not about need, but about rights, and he supports your rights. Personally, I do not see a "need" for the Scout rifle that he loves so much. Big deal. I go for full rifle as my choice. I fail to see how cutting a few inches off the barrel makes for such a desirable thing. I don't see any need a short rifle. That doesn't make me a bad guy. There are thousands of gun designs avaiable, and we don't need them all.
THE 2ND AMMENDMENT IS NOT ABOUT NEED OR DUCK HUNTING.

[ctdonath]

The quote in its entirety:It is interesting to learn that the new importer of Steyr equipment is now offering a single-shot sporting rifle in caliber 50 BMG. It is hard to come up with a purpose for such a piece, but as with so many grown men's toys, the purpose of the instrument is simply to have something that nobody else has. The 50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it. Those of us who have used the 50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about these things. I once saw a defunct Japanese Zero which had been shot out of the air by one round of 50 BMG. Oddly enough it was almost unhurt, except for a half-inch hole through its vitals. One of its 20mm canon, its oil cooler, its starboard side landing gear, and its landing flaps were defunct, but apart from accompanying cuts and scratches it was pretty close to air worthy. Nobody, however, volunteered to fire it up and fly it away. Cooper is NOT supporting a prohibition on .50BMG rifles of any kind.

Cooper DOES often review a recent firearm, consider the applications, and reasonably conclude it is little more than a toy. Useful in very narrow circumstances perhaps, very expensive and well made perhaps, and much beloved by its owner perhaps, but for most practical purposes a toy nonetheless.

(YES, a single-shot .50BMG is potentially useful. It's the modern version of the cannon. Like many firearms we own, it is mostly a toy. And yes I want one.)

[Sleeping Dog]

The 50 BMG and the 700 Nitro are interesting experimental developments
That's good enough for me. Nothing wrong with a gun just for games. The fact that it's a little (or a lot) beyond my budget makes no difference.

As far as a .50 shooting down a plane? Yes, there are a few Zeros and MIGs in the Pacific that can testify to its effectiveness. Maybe a Messerschmidt or two in the North Sea as well.

Hunting with a .50? At a gun show, I looked at a .50 and noticed it had sling swivels. So I guess you can carry it through the brush. Good luck.

Regards.

[TooTaxed]

Gotta admit, that with all the weapons I've fired, including a couple of Barretts and a Russian 20-mm anti-tank rifle w/bipod converted to .50 Browning (with a 20-power scope), a .50 Browning is about the last one I'd spend big bucks for. :eek: Basic reasons: it's rather punishing to shoot, worth it only at ranges over 1,000 yd (and the farther than that the better!), there are darn few places where I can shoot one at that distance legally...none within reasonable driving range. I would very rarely use it...and I like to shoot.

Sorry, fellows!

[Cpl Punishment]

I think a lot of people get bent out of shape if someone doesn't express adulation of their favorite toy. You don't actually have to say that you don't like it, or that you think it should be banned, just saying YOU have no use for it will get people's panties in a twist.

Just look what happens when someone says they'd pick [Insert Rifle] instead of an AR. Look how many guys come careening out of the woodwork to put down the blasphemy.

Same thing with Mr. Cooper. He has no use for the .50 BMG as a personal weapon (he doesn't sit aroun nights dreaming of holding off the Visigoths, and his interests lie more in hunting for big bore rifles). Even though he says there's no reason not to own one if you can afford it, by not thinking that they are the best thing since back pockets, he draws the ire of those who worship at the altar of Barrett.

[seeker_two]

Perhaps the only sure thing we can ascertain from Col. Cooper's comments is that he won't be promoting a .50BMG Scout Rifle anytime soon...

...and neither would I...


...especially if I had to shoot it... :what: