[444]

How many of you can honestly say that you have fired your "SHTF" rifle at a measured 600 (or more) yards from a field positon, against a target such as paper or steel but not rocks or some junk ?

I am not talking about firing a target rifle with a high magnification scope. I am not talking about a heavy barreled F-Class or varmint type rifle with a bipod/sandbags/big scope etc. I am not talking about shooting from a bench. I am talking about taking something like an M1, M1A, FAL, G3/HK91, AK, Galil, AR, SKS.......... military type rifle, getting into a good shooting position and shooting at a target of approx. human size or smaller.
I would prefer we be talking about a rifle you personally owned. Not some fantasy rifle and not a rifle you had issued to you in the military but no longer have because you got out twenty years ago. Improvised rests are OK, and bipods are OK providing you honestly would carry the bipod if the SHTF. Tricked out rifles are OK as long as you would honestly grab that rifle in that configuration if the SHTF.
What I am basically getting at is, if the SHTF right this minute and you grabbed your personal gear including a rifle and ammo. How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now. This obvious also means that you know the sight dope to use for that first shot hit.
I would really appreaciate your honest response and whether or not you have actually done it.

On another board, one of the members of this board posted a quick and dirty little skills test that included making one out of one shots at 500 yards. Not many people actually went out and tried it, but those that did found it difficult.
A lot of people don't have access to a 600 yard rifle range to even know if they can pull it off.

[clange]

600 yards eh? Why not make it 1000?

I'd probably be hard pressed to make a 600 yard shot with my 700, let alone an AK, but then again i have no delusions about doing so.

I'm not sure i understand the point of this thread. What are you getting at with the 600 yard thing? That people should have something that reaches that far? People dont understand what their rifles are capable of? :confused:

And unfortunately, if you want me to go try it the only ranges around here max out at 100 yards. :(

[beerslurpy]

What sort of SHTF situation would involve picking fights with people half a mile away? I'm more concerned with clowns that get within 50 yards of me looking to take my stuff.

[Zak Smith]

I've made hits on a steel IPSC-style silhouette at 600 yards with a 17" AR15 shooting XM193 with an ACOG, from improvised prone (== mag monopod on dirt). Have made first-round hits on the same target at 500 yards. Shoot it to 400 regularly on 10" plates with the carbines. Done the same with the 18" 6.8SPC with another TA11.

No reason to discount fieldworthy precision rifles, either...
-z

[444]

People on internet gun boards seem to place a great deal of value in long range rifle shooting in SHTF senarios.
They endlessly discuss how this rifle or this cartridge is more effective at long range (often cited as 600 yards or more). Probably the most common is that the AR is OK at close range, but out at 600 yards (or whatever) it isn't worth a crap.................... I want to reach out and touch someone..........Blah blah Blah. I am sure you have read thousands of posts that are similar over the years. Based on these posts, I have to assume that a lot of people think this is a realistic senario and they feel that their rifle/ammo/skills are up to the task seeing as how they spend so much time discussing it and placing so much emphisis on it.
Maybe the biggest topic discussed in this regard is the fragmentation of military ball ammo in 5.56mm NATO. Obviously these guys feel that they can outshoot that range and thus the ammo is a liability.

Ok, how many people here think they can hit a human sized cardboard target with their SHTF rifle right now, as is from a cold barrel, first five shots (1 hit in five shots and only five shots)?
If ammo performance and rifle performance at these ranges is vital to your survival, then have you ever actually fired your rifle at such ranges and if so, what were the results ?

This is an honest question. I have done it. I thought it was fun.
If nothing else it is something to try and get better at. Gun ownership isn't just about talking on the internet: shooting is fun too.

[Lone_Gunman]

I think that if you are a civilian shooting at someone 600 yards away, you are probably going to be charged with murder, even if the S has hit the F.

[444]

Ok, thanks for the bump.
One out of four answered the question so far and I already know Zak has done it and can do it on demand. Who else has done it, or thinks they can do it ?

[Justin]

176 out of 200 possible points scored on a 600 yard High Power target shot with an iron-sighted Armalite AR15 with 69 grain Sierra Match Kings.

I don't say this to brag, that score is really pretty mediocre, and I got fairly lucky in that there was little wind when I was shooting.

[Nightcrawler]

Hey, all I did was cite some ballistics figures. I never mentioned one's ability to actually hit someone at that range. :cool:

[jefnvk]

What pretty much everyone else has said.

If you are in a situtation where you can identify and legally shoot someone 600 yards away, you are in a war.

Me? I can reasonably hit metal plates 200-300 yards away. Not worrying about training to hit much further. Actually, not worrying about training for a SHTF scenario anyways.

I think much more practical drills would be trying to hit something 25-50 yards away, while running, ducking, from ackward positions, around corners, down cluttered lanes, etc that hitting at 600 yards.

[thereisnospoon]

While I DO have access to 600 yards, I have only recently put my Savage .308 to the test, although I am somewhat of a CHEATER...the scope riding on top is an old Swarovski Tactical with a cam calibrated for .308. I just set the little thingy to 600 and plink away at my IDPA targets. I can even hit 1 Gallon milk jugs at that distance (this is from a very solid bench rest mind you...). I have a Bipod for the thing but haven't gotten dirty yet :rolleyes:

The fact is, I practice more with my M14S at close range out to 50 meters for SHTF type stuff than I do long range. I am NOT going to pick a long range fight with someone in a SHTF situation...I'll merely skulk away and live to fight another day.

But it is really fun to shoot at long distance, even when you don't do so well (like when I try my M14Sout past 300 yards).

[444]

By the way, this little skills test I referred to was on AR15.com.
The 500 yard one shot hit was just one part of the overall test. I guess I should have mentioned how I did. I first tried it with a 14.5" AR15/TA31F ACOG optic/Wolf 55 grain ammo. I was unable to score a single hit on three seperate days, all of which had at least a slight breeze. Each time I also fired one of my CMP M1s using Korean mil-surp ammo/issue iron sights/sling/prone. I could hit the silhouette every time: somewhere :o I knew the sight dope from actual firing on steel plates out to 800 yards for the M1.
Using good quality handloads and heavy bullets, I was able to start hitting the 500 yard silhouette with the AR, but Wolf was a no go. I could hit the target every time in the upper chest with Wolf at 300 however.

FORGET about discussing what you would do in situation X. This thread is about taking your SHTF rifle and hitting a cardboard target at 600 yards. Can you do it or not ? Have you actually done it or not ? Whether this is a realistic situation or whether you think it is ethical or whatever is something for another thread. This is about rifle shooting skill only.

[Dr.Rob]

Well I know I can and have hit a moving target through the vitals in a pretty good wind at 425 yards with my hunting rifle... no bipod, no lasers, just a decent scope and a Savage 116 and a GI sling.

That's not the rifle I'd carry in a SHTF scenario... but my eyes aren't as good as some of yours.

Hunting is about the best practice there is.

I've shot a high-power match with Justin... and while my old Springfield wasn't up to the task I assure you with a 30-30 and buckhorns I could have made a fine showing.

I know I can pretty much pick up any rifle with buck horn sights shoot it... I never did like the post and hole style set up.

I think the frathest I've shot my AK is 200 yards... there just aren't many 600 yard ranges available, even here.

[Zak Smith]

Yeah, those 55gr 223 bullets get moved by the wind A LOT. I've had better luck with the 75's in my guns for long range stuff. You can also hear them better hitting the steel (and 6.8 is even better in this regard).

[mpthole]

I'll bet I could get really close anyway, with my 16" AR-10 in .308 with the iron sights. I have access to a 600 yard range - maybe I'll give it a try sometime. The other day I was making consistent 300 yard hits on an IDPA target with that gun no problem.

Still, I think 600 yards is quite a stretch for a SHTF situation. If things are that bad, I'll put on a ghillie suit and grab my bolt-action. :evil:

[dasmi]

I can't do it, and I don't see why I'd need to do it, in a SHTF scenario.

[444]

Again, just to clarify: this isn't about a SHTF situation, it is about shooting your SHTF rifle. Just a question about how you feel you would do or how you know you have done on this one event skills test: take your honest, actual SHTF rifle and make one shot out of five on a target at 600 yards.

[mummac]

I'll stop lurking just to answer the question. No.

[itgoesboom]

Never done it. Wish I could though.

My main SHTF rifle is a CETME, and while accurate (1-1.5" groups are common at 75 yards, the range I have access to) , the sights are set up for 100, 200, 300 and 400 meters. I have tried to scope it, but had problems with the mounting, so I just recently removed the scope.

I also don't have access to a 600 yard range. Honestly, I pretty much end up shooting at 75-85 yards since I don't belong to a private range. :( I do the best I can with what I have.

I also don't think I am the greatest shot, and while I can get good groups with my CETME, it is while prone supported either with a bipod or a backpack, or a fallen log to help me out.

I.G.B.

[KaceCoyote]

600 yards, no. 300 yards yes, I can do about 50% accuracy at 300 yards with my Saiga and admittedly that was on a good day. I'm going to be the first to say anything over 120 yards is going to be a waste of ammunition. Partly due to the rifle, partly due to the guy using said rifle.

[Beetle Bailey]

My SHTF rifle is a USGI M1, and I haven't tried shooting it from field positions out to 600 yards. The furthest I have tried is 400 yards sitting with the 1907 sling, and I missed more than I hit, so I didn't try it on the greater distances.

But. . . now that you mention it, I suppose the next time I go to a 600 yard shooting range, I'll give it a try, just to see ;) .

[Mulliga]

I can't hit anything at that range. I can barely see anything at that range - if we're talking SHTF rifles, that means iron sights to me.

200 yards is about the maximum I feel comfortable with.

[jefnvk]

take your honest, actual SHTF rifle and make one shot out of five on a target at 600 yards.
In that case, never tried.

Just wondering what makes shooting 600 yards more important than close quarter training, or for some SHTF proclaiming guys, being able to run 600 yards

[Dr.Rob]

Here's a more practical idea:

you need 5-6 gallon jugs painted an odd color... neon pink etc. A buddy or two and your rifles... whatever that means. You can fill the jugs with water for easier scoring.

Conceal them/set them along a creek bed that you have hunted use both sides of the creek... low and high but watch your backstops. Pick someplace in the middle of nowhere on public land.

Act as your buddy's 'guide' and as SOON as you see a target you MUST engage it from that range... sort of IDPA for hunting rifles.

Dad and I came up with this idea and it worked really well.

Shot #1 might be 10-20 yards at a 'bedded deer', shot #2 might be 100 or more. In any case you should only need as many bullets as you have targets, right?

This works for 22's as well as it does for hi-power or SHTF rifles.

Of course it only works if your buddy has no idea where the targets are... and the same goes for you when HE sets up the targets.

[cracked butt]

If I had to take a shot over 300 yards, It wouldn't be with a sks or M1, I would pull out a bolt action for it. I've never shot at 600 yards, only to 500. The longest shot that 'counted' was a deer at a few steps over 400 yards with a remington 788, I would never take that shot with a semi-auto battle rifle.

With an M1, I can hit the bull of a 200 yard SR target from sunup to sundown shooting from my hind legs- plenty good enough for any 'realistic' social problems that might ever happen.

[444]

Wow, lots of replies since I went to bed.
Again, there are a number of reasons why I ask this question. First of all, it is just something fun to do with your rifle. I sort of chose 600 yards as a random number but also partly because it was mentioned in a recent thread. 600 yards is also the longest range in an NRA High Power match if I am not mistaken. Another reason I ask this question is (again) because we seem to spend a lot of time talking about things like fragmentation range of 5.56 Nato ball ammo and how we want a rifle capable of long range accuracy for SHTF and how the M4 carbine has proven to be a total failure in Iraq and Afganistan because it is only good at short range.................. Yet those of us who have actually tried shooting at longish ranges from combat type rifles from field positions find it very difficult to hit anything at these ranges even when we know the range we are shooting, no one is shooting back, the target isn't moving or camoflauged, there is no real time limit (the target isn't going to leave the area), the terrain is nice and flat, and we are not exhausted and malnourished.........................
My hope here is to make you think and to provide you with something to try the next time you go to the range. It is a goal to strive for, even if you don't think it has any practical purpose (like any shooting drill): just something to play with.
I appreciate hearing from all of you: I personally find it all interesting.

[rbernie]

Never tried it, in part because I've not had access to a 600+ yard range since I hung up my BDU's. And while it's a neat idea in general, I can't see myself trying it anytime soon since I don't see much use in it for me.

[Too Many Choices!?]

ROFLMAO :D . You have gotta be kidding me right. MAYBE, I could see(and hit) a target at 500yds out, 1 of 5 shots from a cold barrel outta my M4gery by simply holding over my previous shots point of impact to adjust the next one, but if I can't see the target, I got no business shooting, right?

PS: I think off-hand shooting out around 100-150yds is better exercise, as it takes more skill than off the bench, kneeling, or prone, and is probably the most likely position you will make contact from...

[Jon Coppenbarger]

We are having a 600 yard prone slow fire clinic this sat. at the range where I am the highpower director. We expect between 40 to 48 students. We will teach them how to hit that target at 600 yards with a open sighted ar15. Actual hands on and they will fire arond 50 shots at those ranges with the rifles and ammo we provide.

So yes not only do folks do it but there are some of us that go out of our way to teach it.
As far as myself I have taken one of my ar15's out of its case with police officers watching that wish to learn and layed down on the dirt and took the first shot at 600 yards on the waist up man size body target and just look at the wind and hit it in the heart. target goes down and comes back up and hit it again like less than 2" from the first shot. Target gets cleaned up and they run up two targets this time and I put 14 hits in each one in under 50 seconds.
I practice it in the snow, rain, heat and bad light and we use either a military light brown or od green target and they do fade out on you some days.
500 yards in is a easy deal but 600 can get dicy if your wind call is off ever so slightly.
Jon

[WayneConrad]

Just wondering what makes shooting 600 yards more important than close quarter training
It's the rifleman's quarter mile: If a rifleman can see it, he can hit it. It is a matter of pride, and a matter of preparedness. The long range shot is an American tradition going back to Concord, and a valuable tool. To ignore it and train only in close-quarters technique would be just as silly as training only for the long range shot and ignoring CQT.

Someone correctly pointed out that the 600 yard shot means you are at war. So it does. Every able American should be able to pull off a war shot if needed.

[chopinbloc]

i've never shot that far away. however i'd like to get into longer range shooting just for the challenge. i do know that i can reliably (at least 3 out of 5) hit a 300 meter target with iron sights. if i'm doing my math right a hit on a human size target at 600 yards requires about 3 moa accuracy, right? this is not unheard of.

What sort of SHTF situation would involve picking fights with people half a mile away?

yes it would be war. this is possible. civilians have found themselves at war with oppressors in the past and probably will in the future. if this happens in your lifetime the only advantage you would be likely to have against conventional troops is range combined with cover and concealment. i can tell you for a fact that most soldiers have difficulty with targets past 100-150 meters. training could fix that and our army is looking to remedy 50 years of bad marksmanship. but if we had to throw off the yoke of oppression today 7.62 NATO at six hundred yards plus would likely be the only advantage you would have. without resorting to roadside bombs and killing innocents, of course.

444, it was a good question and i for one intend to make myself a marksman someday.

edit: oh, i shot an m1 clinic years ago. i think that's done at 500yds. can't remember my score but i know i kept 'em all in the black with iron sights.

[USSR]

People on internet gun boards seem to place a great deal of value in long range rifle shooting in SHTF senarios.
They endlessly discuss how this rifle or this cartridge is more effective at long range (often cited as 600 yards or more).

We call them armchair warriors. They just love to talk SHTF this and SHTF that. SHTF = Some Have Tremendous Fantasies. Now if you want to discuss long range precision shooting, I would be happy to contribute what I know from shooting 1,000 yard F Class matches for several years. But if you want to discuss shooting AK's at long range, well, I'll just leave that to the keyboard commandos.

Don

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Don
got a question as I am starting to practice long range more and more . You having shot long range and being F class you get to see the mirage in REAL time so how much more wind do you put on your rifle for the same condition from say your at 600 yards compared to how much more you would add at 1K. For example you are going to add 1 minute for a 600 yard shot, What would it be for a 1K shot?
Just trying to get as much information put into head as to what others have already experienced. My problem at 800 to 1000 with my open sight ar15 so far as been not giving it enough wind. I catch the changes but I get alot of 9's out after I leave the 800 yard line. you having done it longer so you should have a better insight on it.
Thanks Jon

[Remington788]

600 yards with my SHTF rifle, probably not, but if I am shooting at someone that far away, I will put down my FAL and grab my bolt action .308. I have shot coyote's at 350 yards so a human at 600 is doable, but you had better make the first shot count because only a complete moron is going to stand still after getting shot at.

[GunGoBoom]

The answer is no, I don't. And I probably could not if I tried (well, by the 4th or 5th one out of 5, I *might* be able to *if* I can see dust from my misses). My gun club's range only goes to 200. I used to be a member of a gun club with a 600 yard range, but it was too far to drive to. I think the reason people talk about their SHTF rifles being effective at 600+ yards is NOT because of the idea of making precise hits at that range; but rather, because we, for whatever reason, project ourselves (and our rifles) into an imagined military role, where we MIGHT need our ammo to be effective at that range against a large enemy force - not from aimed fire, but from a sheer happenstance luck hit against the enemy, from a wall of lead laid down by you (me) and your (my) imaginary para-military commando group. :)

And besides, I have 3 STHF rifles...hmm, maybe I should narrow it down to 1 favorite - that's gonna be tough.

[USSR]

For example you are going to add 1 minute for a 600 yard shot, What would it be for a 1K shot?

Jon,

Depends upon the bullet and velocity. You won't find any .223's being used in F Class, as most of the bullets don't have high enough BC's to remain supersonic at 1k. My understanding regarding the .223 is that the 80 grain SMK with a BC of .420 is the only Sierra bullet really capable of 1k shooting, and it is marginal at best. I use a 6.5x55 shooting a 142 grain SMK (.595 BC) at about 2925fps. With my rifle and a full value 10mph wind, I would dial in a little more than 4MOA of windage at 600 yards, while 1,000 yards would require 8.5MOA of windage. The reason you would use more windage at a greater distance is that the time of flight of the bullet is the amount of time that the wind can influence the bullet. That's why relatively flat shooting rifles are typically used when shooting long range. If you don't already have an external ballistics program, I would recommend getting one. Just plug in your bullet's weight, BC, and velocity, and it will give you a lot of helpfull info. Hope I've been of some help.

Don

[Correia]

444, good question. :) Probably 95% of folks on the internet talk a lot more about shooting than they actually shoot. Brings to mind the old MYTH thread from TFL.

I've done it. It is very difficult. Can't do it freehand at all. Have to go prone or take up an improvised rest. 1 for 5? Yes, but I have to admit that only by watching for bullet impacts in the dirt and adjusting from there. So cheating in the context of this post. 1st shot? No, not with my current equipment and skill level. I'm primarily a 3gunner, and the vast majority of my rifle shooting is well under 300 yards and fast.

I'm willing to bet that the only people who can do this with service rifles on a consistent basis are High Power shooters and people who practice a lot (444 or Zak for example). For the majority of people who argue on gunboards, it is a whole lot easier to talk about what they could/might be able to do, than to actually practice.

[Ian]

I shot highpower matches a couple years ago, and did shoot at 600 yards with an iron-sighted Daewoo K2 and an iron-sighted M1A. My scores weren't great (miserable by someone like Jon Coppenbarger's standards), but I was hitting the target more than I was missing it.

With my current SHTF rifle (a tanker M1), I've only shot out to 300 yards (prone), but I was making about 75% hits on a silhouette. I expect I could make 20% at 600 yards, especially with a sandbag or other rest.

[buzz meeks]

Steel at 300 yards is pretty easy for me. But in a recent three-gun match I had a lot of close misses on a 400 yard target that looked like an Iron Maiden. So safe to say a 600 yard target would be safe from me. However, my SHTF rifle is an iron sighted Marlin 30-30. I run into such trajectory problems beyond 250-300 that I cannot make up the difference with the sights I have now. If I had a scope that would allow me to hold over and still see my target, I might could do things in the 4-500 yard range. It's an accurate rifle with a serviceable trigger.

I have done the 600 yard gong with my primary hunting rifle- a CZ550 in 9.3x62- as recently as yesterday. I hit it two out of five. I was prone, looped up and warmed up. It's still not a shot I would ever attempt in the hunting field.

[Thin Black Line]

I'm sorry to say that if the 50+ motorcycle bandits begin swarming my
neighbor's house 600 yds away, I will have great difficulty consistently
hitting them at that distance with my bushie shorty topped with the
trijicon reflex if the xwind gets too brisk.

However, after I've gotten the motorcycle bandit gangs' attention
and they begin closing the distance to my property, I will soon have
a target rich environment at much closer ranges.

Ah...now the odds are even.... :rolleyes:

[jobu07]

600, no. Furthest i've ever shot was 300 yards. But I was making consistant hits with an improvised rest.

...using a gatorade bottole while prone ;)

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Don
Thanks for your answers. So that is what is the main problem for me is that not shooting long range since the 1980's I was wanting a jump on the learning curve. Will get alot of practice at 600,800,900 and 1K this winter with my ar15 to be ready for the long range and Palma matches over the next couple of years. A few of us want to make the palma 20 at the nationals. The closest anyone has come is 21st in 2004.
Trust me with what I shoot the 223 has no problem getting to 1k it is the fun of shooting a post front site and doing good with it is the challange for a few of us. We just can not let the AMU have all the fun. LOL
600 is no problem in most any condition but the lack of time spent shooting longer distances will take time. Do plan on 5 or 6 long range palma next year as the 223 is legal for it here in the states. Will build a long range rifle in a couple of years just for that but that is a year or so away as I still have goals in service rifle.

Thanks for the info. Jon

[pbhome71]

No, but I would love to try. Around my place, the max range is only 200 yds.

I can't think of any place that I can shoot 600 yds within 2 hours drive.

[Third_Rail]

I'm fairly certain that my 1917 can do it. At least 1 out of 5, 600 yards may be tricky, but even with surplus ammo, it'll work well enough.

I mean, if I can get all shots fired (21 total, 6 in the mag, 3 5rd stripper clips) into a 5" circle at 200 yards.... The rifle is capable of 1.7" at 200 yards (that was by a much more experienced shooter, from prone, using handloads out of this rifle)



While my rifle can do it, I rather doubt I can after really thinking about it. :D

[DMK]

I've never taken a shot beyond 200 yards, and I'm not even sure that one time was that far at that. I live in a heavily forested area. Hunters here rarely take shots further than 75 yards.

My rifles are roughly zeroed for 200 yards, but I would never take a shot farther than 100-150 yards unless it was a very unavoidable circumstance. I just don't have the facilities available to me to practice those kinds of shots.

[USSR]

Jon,

My hat's off to you iron sight 1k shooters. I tried it once last year, and it was a humbling experience. On top of the sheer difficulty of it, I found myself spending a LOT of time trying to make sure I wasn't crossfiring on a neighbor's target. Them targets may look big in the pits, but...

Don

[pauli]

no, i couldn't do it, and no, i can't see a reason why i'd need to.

would i like to try it? sure. would i consider it training for shtf? no way. there is no place in my house where i can look outside and see farther than 100 yards, and i can't see much reason for shooting anything way over there anyway.

maybe things are different in the desert.

plus, my rifle is a 22 with slightly bent sights, so 600 yards is a tad optimistic anyway ;)

[Ian]

i can't see a reason why i'd need to.

It was once pointed out to me that being able to hit a large target at long range means being able to hit a much smaller target at medium or close range. If TSHTF, bad guys aren't going to be running around presenting perfect silhouettes (at least, not for long). If all you can see is a leg sticking out from behind a tree (or something along those lines), you'll want the marksmanship skill that comes from making 600-yard X-ring hits.

[R.H. Lee]

How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now. How big is an IDPA silhouette target? Could I see it a 600yds without a scope? My own 'SHTF' rifle happens to have a 10x mildot scope on it. If I could see the target @ 600yds, I could hit it.

[Zak Smith]

It was once pointed out to me that being able to hit a large target at long range means being able to hit a much smaller target at medium or close range.
Certainly shooting small targets at close range will help you at longer distances, but it is no substitute for long range shooting. At longer distances, you need to have good elevation data and be able to judge the wind accurately.

[Ian]

Zak, I'm talking about the other way around. Practice at long range leading to skill at short range.

[Zak Smith]

You're right of course.

[Too Many Choices!?]

As I have said before, 2 shots from an off-hand position into a 6 inch circle(in 1 second or less), will change most B/G priorities. That equals an AR:evil: ...

[USSR]

At longer distances, you need to have good elevation data and be able to judge the wind accurately.

Exactly. The wind will eat your shorts at long range. Let's assume you're using a rifle in .308 and firing current issue sniper ammo (M118LR). In a 10mph full value wind, your bullet will be deflected 28 inches from POA at 600 yards. Since the IDPA target is only 22 inches wide, with a center hold, you would miss the target wide left or right (depending on wind direction) by 17 inches. Even a 5mph wind, which is really quite light, would cause you to miss. And, it only gets worse the farther out you go.

Don

[pauli]

It was once pointed out to me that being able to hit a large target at long range means being able to hit a much smaller target at medium or close range.

i don't go on long distance runs to improve my sprinting. there's a major difference between something that's hard to hit cause it's hard to see at that distance, and something that's hard to hit cause it's hard to see behind cover.

if you want to get better at hitting small medium and close range targets, then that is what you should practice. if you want to get better at hitting medium targets at long range, then that is what you practice. do skills cross over? obviously. is one a perfect substitute for the other? not in the slightest.

practicing a skill you'll never use specifically to get better at one you will, rather than practicing that one in the first place, is silly.

[Zak Smith]

This is straying from the original point, as much as there was one, but consider this--

A rifle - heck even an AR15/AK47 carbine - is a tool with an effective range to hundreds of yards. If you have a rifle or carbine for protection, given that you cannot control the time, place, and circumstances of its use, wouldn't it be responsible for you to have the skills to employ it to the effective range?

Here's something I wrote on another forum, to remind people that a rifle/carbine is not just a "long pistol."


A carbine is effective to hundreds of yards. Know your zero, and know how to make hits out to at least 300 yards. A poorly set up carbine with an operator who cannot shoot it beyond 30 yards is a waste of a perfectly good weapons system, and a danger to everyone around him when he attempts to employ it.

I recently RO'd a match with many nontypical competitors, who would be in a position to carry a carbine "on duty." The majority of them had a hard time hitting pie plate sized targets from 100-200 yards from stable positions like prone, braced, or sitting. The majority of the misses were WAY high (ie, feet), which indicates an inappropriate zero and little to no understanding of the basic trajectory.

Even if you think you'll only ever employ your carbine at "entry" distance, consider this for a moment: How far is it from the center of the parking lot at the Super-Walmart to its entrance, or from inside its entrace to the "back door"?

If NO has taught us anything, it's that circumstances will develop in ways we and many others do not expect.

[Greg L]

600? I don't think I have, it looked to be more like 450-550 where we staked out a whole bunch of balloons on strings (THAT was interesting as the wind kept blowing them around to the extent of their string - about 2'). With an open sight Yugo SKS (once I figured out the hold over) I was able to get a hit on a moving balloon 1-2 times per magazine (10-20%) with the rest of the shots close by. If it were a person out there, if not hit, he would be very interested in finding some cover. So if nothing else I feel fairly confident in making the looter/mutant zombie rethink his decision to come my way.

Interestingly enough I had a somewhat similar conversation on another board about this issue. The (nongun) guy was claiming that the NO looters would just sit back & pick off the police as they came into his area. My argument was that, except for lucky shots, the longer the distance is in a gunfight the winner will be the one who is better trained/has more practice.

Do I want to get in a gun fight? Not particularly but if I had to chose I would want it to be at very long distances against the average looter.

[.45Guy]

I'm going to go with my good ol' sendra AR. I figure if I could put ten out of ten in the v ring of a B Modified target from the 500 with a sh### GI 16-a2, she'll do just fine.

[NMshooter]

Thank you for posting this 444. :D

I have shot out to 700 yards with a variety of rifles and ammunition.

It is a humbling experience...

Man sized target in the open at 600 and I get 5 shots? I could get a hit assuming no wind, any wind and all bets are off.

Of course anything other than a first round hit really does not count, since anyone with sense would drop to the ground after the first shot.

It definitely takes practice to compensate for range and wind, if you get the chance to shoot at a distance take it, at least you will have some idea of what it takes to hit a target at any real distance.

Consistently finding and hitting small targets at 200-300 yards is also a pain, and requires practice.

I try to be honest with myself about my limitations. ;)

[.45Guy]

I guess I should have mentioned that a SHTF situation would be alot different than sitting on the 500 yard line at Stone bay prone with a loop sling. But for people that hate staring at ballistics charts, there is a great free program out there called "rem shoot" it'll allow you to figure out your dope for almost any condition.

[Sewerman]

i live way out in the country where there is a lot of pasture. its been a couple of years but i hit a 2x2' styrefoam block at apprx (we just stepped it off) 500 yds with my longbranch and off the shelf at wal mart ammo 3 out of ten times. the buddy i was with had a mauser he had just bought and hit it six or seven times out of ten.

[Sam]

As NMShooter said it is a humbling experience. I have lots of space to play with and work at long range with the M1 at least monthly. It is frustrating, irritating and abusive too. :banghead: But when the hits start to come it is highly satisfying. :cool: It is a worthwhile goal in itself and when you master it, you will be a rifleman.

Everyone should try it, with a service rifle. Contrary to previous opinions, it will improve all of your rifle work. Most of our shooters today seldom work beyond 200 yards because they never shoot off the range. I believe that people get so channeled in their thinking that they honestly believe there is no need to be able shoot farther otherwise they would make the ranges longer. You can say it will never come up, but it is a likely as the SHTF scenario you all yack about being able to control. If you want to convince yourself that you will never have to shoot past 2-300 fine, keep up the self hypnosis. Those that think you need a scoped bolt gun can keep up their hypnosis too. :neener: Just make sure that no one has to depend on your shooting skill.
Take those rifles out and work them to their limits. You will run into your limits first, guaranteed. You have to master yourself. Get on it and make the rifle work for you. Don't let your weapon be the master. Find out what it is like to truely control your weapon. You have no idea just how good you will feel, or the confidence it will inspire in you. Nothing within your sight will ever look quite the same again.

Sam

[Hkmp5sd]

Never tried it.

[bernie]

I shoot an M-1 rifle and do it fairly regularly. The key is to use good ammo, and practice as much as possible. Hits are made at that distance with an M-1 are more often than not for me.

[Gewehr98]

We have vintage military rifle silhouette matches down here, at 500 meters. Lee-Enfields, K-31 Schmidt-Rubins, 96 Swede Mausers, K98 and VZ-24 98 Mausers, Mosin-Nagants, 1917 U.S. Enfields, Springfields, Garands, Krags, you name it. 500 meters = 547 yards. Which, coincidentally, happens to be the battle zero on my Springfield 1903A1. It's a gratifying sound when the bullet hits that steel, on some days you can see the impact flash or steel drop before the sound comes back to you.

Kinda curious about a defensive shooting at 600 yards, though. Massed blue helmets coming up the road towards the homestead?

[Malamute]

Zak Smith wrote

"This is straying from the original point, as much as there was one, but consider this--

A rifle - heck even an AR15/AK47 carbine - is a tool with an effective range to hundreds of yards. If you have a rifle or carbine for protection, given that you cannot control the time, place, and circumstances of its use, wouldn't it be responsible for you to have the skills to employ it to the effective range?

Here's something I wrote on another forum, to remind people that a rifle/carbine is not just a "long pistol."

Quote:
A carbine is effective to hundreds of yards. Know your zero, and know how to make hits out to at least 300 yards. A poorly set up carbine with an operator who cannot shoot it beyond 30 yards is a waste of a perfectly good weapons system, and a danger to everyone around him when he attempts to employ it.

I recently RO'd a match with many nontypical competitors, who would be in a position to carry a carbine "on duty." The majority of them had a hard time hitting pie plate sized targets from 100-200 yards from stable positions like prone, braced, or sitting. The majority of the misses were WAY high (ie, feet), which indicates an inappropriate zero and little to no understanding of the basic trajectory.

Even if you think you'll only ever employ your carbine at "entry" distance, consider this for a moment: How far is it from the center of the parking lot at the Super-Walmart to its entrance, or from inside its entrace to the "back door"?


If NO has taught us anything, it's that circumstances will develop in ways we and many others do not expect."



Good post Zak.



Haven't done any formal shooting on paper, I'm guilty of rock shooting tho.

With a 1903A3 in near new condition, I could keep most shots in a 5 gallon bucket sized target at 800 yards with good 190 gr handloads. The M1 wouldn't shoot as good.

Have since had the M1 bedded and trigger work done, and it will consistantly hit rocks in the 5 gallon bucket size out to about 500 yards. Have shot farther with it, but it still doesn't make as many hits as the '03. 1 in 5 may be doable tho.


Have shot 303 Lee Enfield at 500 yards, it will hit an 18" rock at that range pretty consistantly. The Valmet M-62 clone would hit the same rock at 500 fairly well also.

I usually shoot longer ranges sitting, I always seem to find the cactus and other thorny things when I try to lay down.


I don't feel that shooting 600 yards is likely in a defensive or "shtf" situation, but I like to be ABLE to if I wanted to or needed to. The "bolt from the blue" seems to be very disconcerting to those it is directed towards.

There is a historical account of a man that was a prisoner of the German Navy. He managed to slip away, grabbing a Mauser rifle and ammo, and effectively keep the ship from making repairs, shooting single shots from long range. Cooper related the account several years ago I believe.

[ReadyontheRight]

I've done it, but all slung up and prone -- which I'm not sure you'd get a chance to do if you NEEDED to take a 600-yd shot. I'd assume if you need to take this sort of shot, you would then soon be taking a series of 500 yd, 400 yd, (reload) 300 yd, 200 yd, (reload) 50 yd, 10 yd shots and then going to bayonet.

I can hit the target, but not every time. And I'm not sure how I'd do with rotating-blade-propelled excrement flying all over.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

The original post talked about 600 yards so I believe that is what we started on and answered the questions on. 100.200 and 300 yards takes the same concentration to be very good at but as some have said you just have less to worry about. A reduced 100 and 200 yard slow prone target is a hard target untill you understand the skills it takes to clean it. And after you have the skills you are not happy if you happen to drop a point or two.

Now a fun target is the silhouete target that is only the shoulders and head.
Take it out to like 300 yards and get into a fast sitting or kneeling position and blast off a clip on like two of them in under 50 seconds with like 10 hits on each one out of 20 shots. or say the same target at 200 yards and try to hit like 10 out of 10 shots on one target in the same time frame. most all of the long range shooters I know are very good at close ranges.

The army believes some of the civilians are good or they would not of started asking them to teach marksmanship skills to the troops as they started to last year. In times like we are living our military marksmanship teachers are spead thin. The qualifications for a civilian are very strick and you can not even apply unless you are either distinguished or a presidents 100 recipient. Now having one of those skills tells the comander that the person can hit a target out to at least 600 yards from different positions in different conditions without a scope and do it well.

I am off this weekend to teach 600 yard prone shooting and it is our most favorite attended clinic as it builds great confidence in a shooter to make good hits at those ranges.
To show how important it is to be able to have those skills at long range. We have been helping our juniors on long range a whole lot this year. We even had a long range clinic and practice just for them followed by a prone match the next day with 40 shots rapid at 300 and 40 shots slow at 600. Two weeks later they are at the national championships. How did they do? We placed 4 teams in the medals and won the whistler boy title by 12 points for our first place team. It was won at 600 yards going away. lucky to have 4 teams in the top 20 out of all the two man teams in the country from Colorado? Not when you consider most all of them hammered it back at 600. One of the top marines even came up to us and told us it was the best 300 rapid from a pair of juniors she had ever seen. The next day they came back and won the 6 man junior team service rifle title by 6 points with one of the shooters having two misses at 300 yards.

Bottom line for me anyway is a person can practice the close range stuff most anytime but how many put in the time to learn long range shooting also.
It is so much fun me a few friends have a standard bet on the first shot at 600 no matter if is was a sighter if given or a shot for record if it was not. If you do not hit at least a 10 in any condition you lost. I own 3 ar15's and every one of them will hit what you want out to at least 600.

[Chris Rhines]

Tried it out at Raton two weeks ago. JP-15, 500 yard steel mule deer target, prone, 68grn. BTHP ammo. I could hit the target, although first-round hits at that distance were tough. I'm sure that I could do one for five at 500 yards on an IPSC target.

I think that most casual rifle shooters have only the vaguest idea of their trajectory. If youknow your trajectory and have a reasonable hold, 500 yard stationary IPSC targets should not be a major issue.

- Chris

[Lonestar.45]

"What I am basically getting at is, if the SHTF right this minute and you grabbed your personal gear including a rifle and ammo. How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now."

I have no idea, but, if the S were to HTF, I cannot imagine any scenario in which I'd be shooting at human targets from 600 yds away. That said, if for some crazy insane reason I thought 600 yd shots were going to be needed, I would not be grabbing the AK or SKS from the safe anyway, but the scoped 7mm Mag or 30-06, and I'm pretty sure I could hit 1 out of 5 at 600 with them.

[Zak Smith]

I've done it, but all slung up and prone -- which I'm not sure you'd get a chance to do if you NEEDED to take a 600-yd shot.
This is a good reason to shoot from non-traditional improvised positions, like off a ruck, braced on a vehicle, magazine monopod, etc.

[JShirley]

I've done it with M4 (2002). I'm confident I can do it with my heavy-barreled FAL, especially when I put glass on it...does my MBR having a 24" free-floating HB mean it's no longer a MBR?

Regardless, I'm getting to the point where my "good gun for bad times" will probably change to something like an '03 with decent glass (http://olegvolk.net/gallery/thanksgiving03/surprise) instead of an ultracool EBR. Bah.

John

[KaceCoyote]

After some thought, I've decided I could put 10 rounds on a man sized target at that range assuming my rifle was up to it. I love my Saiga like a child, but its no sniper rifle. With something like a Vepr yes, or a AR yes. My SHTF rifles arent long range focused, depending on the situation either my Saiga or the Marlin 60 comes with me...or both. Neither are tack drivers.

[bearmgc]

Maybe I'm way wrong, but I envision SHTF as urban survival. I have a Marlin lever in 44mag and an SKS, both very accurate to 100yds. And handgunwise, a Colt Govt 45 and P99 40SW. I guess I'll just take my chances.

[444]

Dispite the fact that I posted more than once that this was not a discussion of specific senarios where 600 yard shots might take place, many people still posted their thoughts on the subject. Ok, I guess. I am not really interested in your SHTF philosophy: I am only interested in whether you can use your SHTF rifle to complete this drill. This is a drill, pure and simple. Can you take your SHTF and make one out of five shots at 600. It is really that simple: no catch. If your SHTF rifle is an AK, then that is the rifle I am talking about. If your SHTF rifle is a HiPoint Carbine, that is the rifle I am talking about. If your SHTF rifle is a 30 pound bench gun, then that is the rifle I am talking about. M1 Carbine ? Whatever. All I ask is that you be honest: whatever rifle you would grab on your way out the door if you were forced to flee right this second.


The point of grabbing your SHTF rifle in my question is that you are NOT choosing from a safe full of rifles like you would golf clubs from your caddy. You have a situation, you are forced to leave your house, you grab ONE rifle and leave the house. Most of us have a rifle in mind for that situation. Most of those rifles are milsurp type rifles, although your personal rifle that you would honestly grab is the rifle to use in this drill: not a specialized rifle. Not that rifle after you modify it for long range shooting: that rifle, as it sits. That rifle as it is as you grab it and head out the door. How many people answered this thread with the totally unrealistic answer that if they needed to make a shot like that, they would choose a different rifle ? They have a servent humping multiple rifles behind them so they can choose the ideal rifle for that particular shot ? :rolleyes: Again, you have one rifle. You and that one rifle have to perform.

[Too Many Choices!?]

I would still grab my Bushie M4A3 AR-15 with A2 stock and Ak muzzle brake on a 14 1/2", 1/9 Heavy barrel and forward mouinted red dot. If i can see my bullet strikes(maybe use all tracers:cool: ), and thre is no wind , with .223's flat trajectory I shoul be on(or reeeeeaaaaaaally close:scrutiny: ) by shot 4 AND 5. .223 out of a 14 1/2" barrel at 600 yds. might atleast leave a nasty bruise :confused: :) ...TMC

[Malamute]

".... I am only interested in whether you can use your SHTF rifle to complete this drill. This is a drill, pure and simple. Can you take your SHTF and make one out of five shots at 600. It is really that simple: no catch. .....All I ask is that you be honest: whatever rifle you would grab on your way out the door if you were forced to flee right this second.


The point of grabbing your SHTF rifle in my question is that you are NOT choosing from a safe full of rifles like you would golf clubs from your caddy. You have a situation, you are forced to leave your house, you grab ONE rifle and leave the house. Most of us have a rifle in mind for that situation. Most of those rifles are milsurp type rifles, although your personal rifle that you would honestly grab is the rifle to use in this drill: not a specialized rifle. ..... That rifle as it is as you grab it and head out the door. ...... Again, you have one rifle. You and that one rifle have to perform."



Interesting thoughts. I guess I like that you will hold people feet to the fire to stay with the intent of the thread. Peoples perceptions of "SHTF" differ. You mentioned military rifles, myself, I would grab a scoped bolt gun, a sporter (a 1903 Springfield), rather than a mil-surp/semi auto for about any realistic situation I can envision. Yes, I can make hits with that gun, tho I seldom shoot it at that range, I have, and can. The other guns can be fun, but I personaly feel better armed and equiped with a scoped sporter and 100 rounds than any semi auto I've had or seen. Just me. Maybe this puts me outside the parameters of your thread, but that is my "SHTF" gun.


One of my first criteria of a "useful" rifle is "will it kill game (elk etc) well". If it does that, I can work with it for other purposes. "SHTF" to me means being able to feed myself as well as defend. Lower powered scopes seem more reliable. A fixed 3x or 4x is enough. Guess I'm not very tactical.

[Lonestar.45]

"I am only interested in whether you can use your SHTF rifle to complete this drill."


Nope, I seriously doubt I could, but that should'nt be surprising since that's not what my SHTF rifle is for. I probably couldn't hit a clay pigeon at 100 yds w/ my 1911 1 out of 5 shots either. :D

[lotus]

Shooting past 500yds in a SHTF situation isn't that outrageous. Think Sarajevo and the sniper wars. Of course in that situation many of us have better tools than my battle rifle for smoking out snipers.

[JamisJockey]

What sort of SHTF situation would involve picking fights with people half a mile away? I'm more concerned with clowns that get within 50 yards of me looking to take my stuff.

+1
My sentiments exactly. This is why I choose an SKS and my shotgun. In a pinch, my wife can shoot my Ruger 10/22. Nobody is going to stand there and get shot with .22lr hp.

[444]

Malamute, whatever rifle you would honestly grab is fine with me. As we all know, there are going to be trade offs. If you grab a scoped sporter rifle and need to clear a building or something you are going to probably have to go with a ballistically inferior handgun. If someone else chooses a pistol caliber carbine and they need to shoot at extended range, they are out of luck. Everything is a trade off. And that is something I was thinking about when I posted this thread: I want something that is versititile. I want something that can fill as many niches as possible even if it doesn't do all of them really well. Close quarters out to medium ranges. With my choice of rifles, I have a variety of sighting options that I can change in seconds and the other optics arn't heavy and bulky to carry: I think it is actually practical. I can shoot iron sights, red dot, ACOG, or 3-9x variable scope. All the optics are mounted in LaRue mounts, and all the mounts attach to a rail. I can leave my dot optic on the gun for general purpose, everyday carry. But, if I needed to make a shot at 500-600 yards and had the time, I could take about 30 seconds and switch that optic out to a 3-9 scope and have a lot higher hit percentage.

Obviously, I don't think it is a good idea, to envision one senario to be prepared for and choose a weapon for that one senario and train for that one senario and refuse to believe that anything else could possibly happen. I also don't think this is fun. As a gunowner, I like to train and challenge myself with new stuff. To me, that makes each range session a lot of fun and something to look forward to. Practicing head shots at three yards from the ready on a timer is a lot of fun. Shooting carbine El Presidente' is a lot of fun. Shooting at the extreme ranges of your skills is just as much fun. Being intimately familiar with your weapon, which includes knowing your sight dope out to long range is fun. Nothing negative will come from starting at three yards and working out to 600 and seeing what you need to do to hit at those ranges: sight dope, scope turret settings, mil-dots, whatever. And finding that information takes a lot of serious shooting on your part which is what it takes to get good with a rifle (not that I would know about being good with a rifle, but it seems to make sense).
I think a lot of people would be surprised what they could do with a rifle if they actually get out and try it. I have shot in matches where a guy was actually trying to win using a Yugo SKS out to 800 yards. And, he was hitting the targets. He didn't hit them often enough to win, but it gave me a whole new appreciation of the rifle and cartridge. That same guy has shot a local F-Class (1000 yard) match using a milsurp Mauser. And was putting shots on paper. You never know what you might do until you try it.

[Malamute]

"Grab going out the door" is perhaps a misnomer for some of us, the rifles I shoot, carry and use most live in my truck most of the time. A scoped bolt gun and Winchester 94 carbine cover most of my uses, and the 45-70 Browning goes along when going up where the bears live. I carry a rifle daily, at least for short periods, when walking the dogs. I live 35 miles from even a small town. House clearing, and other things town folks think of on a regular basis seem about as foreign to me as worrying about grizzlies would to them. I just use what's most practical for me, and where I live. I hardly ever get in gunfights any more, I do carry every day in the hills, and have shot a fair amount of game over the years. "SHTF" in the terms most seem to conceive of it has different connotations in different areas.

A well rounded rifleman should have a variety of skills, like a well rounded pistol shooter. I quite agree with those that like to try new ideas, and work to develop their field shooting skills. Shooting from a bench or single position are limiting. Shooting longer range is another skill we could all use. Like long range pistol shooting, (out to 300 yards), when you get good at longer ranges, shorter stuff seems pretty easy. Our well rounded rifleman shouldn't have too much trouble with defensive situations with whatever they happen to have in hand, tho a gun they are very familiar with can be an impressive instrument.

Good thread.

[Too Many Choices!?]

I thought I was the only one that used the,"Mono-pod", to any effect. Knowing it is done by a shooter of your caliber(pun intended) makes me feel better :p ...

When people complained about the 30 round mags sitting on the ground when prone, I decided to check it out and find it very stable :neener: ...

[NMshooter]

TMC, that 14.5" HBAR is certainly accurate enough. FMJ will still pass clean through at that distance, no fragmentation but you would not need it anyway.

Rails and throw lever mounts offer so many possibilities. :D

[John Deere]

Not being able to shoot long range, is like not knowing how to shift out of first gear, because you only drive in town. My "Grab and Go" rifle is an M1-A, and I shoot across the course with it, along with an AR-15, a SC 03-A3, and once in a while even an L1-A1 FAL. If you haven`t tried it, then it seems to me that your are deliberately handicapping yourself. Regards,

[444]

For those of you who never tried shooting at long ranges, let me just relate a couple of the stages we shot today in our local Vintage Military Bolt Action Rifle match (second Saturday of each month: Desert Sportsman's, 0900). The match today was kind of screwed up because the club was hosting an event for hunters to sight in their deer rifles on the main range that we normally use for our match. Therefore the stages were very simple, but were challenging. The match is well attended with women and children participating. Rifles are pre-1950 bolt action military rifles and they are not allowed to have any external modifications (trigger jobs allowed, but I don't know anyone that has one): in other words, everyone is shooting as issued iron sights. The first stage my group shot was a steel plate at what we estimated to be 700 yards. We arrived at this estimate because the plate was on the bullet inpact area of the NRA Highpower range which we guessed was about 50 yards beyond the 600 yard target pits and we guessed we were another 50 yards behind the Highpower firing line. Anyway, I don't know how big the plate was, but I would guess it was about three feet square. We were allowed to shoot this from "supported prone". This usually means someone will have something like a .50 ammo can or a backpack you can use as a support for the front of the rifle. I shot from prone with a shooting sling. We have a lot of wind: I was holding about 3-4 target widths into the wind (the windage knob on my '03A3 doesn't click so I don't mess with it: kentucky windage). Everyone at the match (30+people ? ) got hits on that target. The next stage was shot from the sitting position at a plate measuring two feet tall and 18" wide at 400 yards (actually 410 yards, some guy on the previous squad happened to have a laser rangefinder). Again, everyone but one guy got hits on it. The final stage was another 2'x18" plate at 200 which was shot offhand.
This stuff is a lot of fun and great practice.
We will shoot a similar course of fire next weekend with the semiautos: SKSs, AKs, M1s, M1As, FALs, HK91s etc. Pre-M16 era rifles. If you live in the Las Vegas area this Vintage Military Semi-Auto Rifle match is held at Desert Sportsman's on the third Saturday of each month.

There is also a metalic silhouette match shot with vintage military rifles shot at the Boulder City range on the first Sunday of each month. 200 meter chickens are shot offhand, pigs are shot sitting, turkeys and rams (500 meters) are shot prone. Again, all iron sights.

[Freedomv]

I have done my fair share of 600 yd shooting in Leg matches and other matches. I allways wrote down my sight settings in books and on my individual rifles (label on stock) so that I had a quik referance guide to use for all ranges/distance.

I'll plead the 5th as too two shots that I took at a guesstemated range of 700-800 yards from my back yard. I used my wifes M-1 in 7.62mm to shoot at, shall we say, two turkey size targets out in the open of a harvested bean field. All I can say is that I was very very close but had bacon and beans for supper.

A fellow 2nd shift worker was relating to the day shift workers the small group sizes that I was shooting while practicing 200 yd rapid fire earlier that day at the county range. I had one ten shot group that could be coverd with a paper coffee cup.
My day man held up a freshly lit cigaritte by the filter and with a big grin asked if I could shoot it out of his hand at 600 yards? I replied "No, I couldn't,,,, but I know that I could make you drop it!" and everyone had a big laugh.

All that being said it would be very unrealistic to engage a target at 600 yards without some knowledge of the very rifle being used or some familiarity with the type of rifle used and expect any hits.
With out optics it would be nearly impossible see or to engage a target unless it was standing in the wide open daring you to shoot at it. If you knew your weapon and it's capabilites and had a spotter who would direct your fire
to the righthand base of a tree or a certain area of a vehicle etc. You might be effective against personnel.
another $.02 worth.

Vern

[Jon Coppenbarger]

just got back from a match and it was a real winner back at 600 yards. The wind was how do you say it? Bad. switching with gust. I have not shot at 600 yards here since like july 3rd. The guy next to me ( who happens to be my coach at the nationals) bet me a beer on the first shot cold which would be the first sighter. He hit a solid 10 with 2 1/2 minutes left on ( he told me later). He said go ahead you better hit a X to beat me. I hit a solid X to win. Did not miss a single wind call but lost two 9's out the top at like shot 5 and 6. corrected for the light and on shot 13 hit a 8 out the bottom and adjusted up. Did not see any big light changes but they were changing every so slightly that I should of corrected for them sooner. ended up with a 196 to win the prone 600 yard part. It is nice to walk up and lay down and know you WILL put it right down the gut from 600 yards.
My SHTF rifle? yeah I would not think twice about grabbing any one that I own.

[mpthole]

How many of you feel that you could make 1 out of 5 shots (five shots only, no sighters) on an IDPA silhouete target at a known six hundred yards right now with the rifle/ammo/your skills just the way it sits right now. This obvious also means that you know the sight dope to use for that first shot hit.
Ok. I finally did it. Me and my rifle went to the 600 yard range and I put up the 600 yard high-power target and stapled an IDPA target to that, right over the bullseye. I had forgotten about the 5 shots only thing and just shot two mags of 17 our of my AR-10 16" with iron sights. I was shooting mil-surp Radway Green.

The first mag I shot from standing and kneeling. Only 1 shot hit the IDPA target. 8 shots hit the target board. The 2nd mag was from a braced sitting or an improvised rest position. I had 3 IDPA hits and 12 target board hits - most of which were within the 6 ring, many within inches of the IDPA target.

So I guess for that 2nd mag, I came pretty darn close to the 1 in 5 hits you mention above. I was by myself at the range that day so I didn't have a target puller or a spotter. I didn't take any "sighter" shots. I just ran through my mags and then drove down to pull the target.

Obviously not great shooting. Better than some maybe - worse than others for sure. Kind of fun though. Makes me want to practice more. :cool:

[444]

The first thing that strikes me is that you appearently have the sight dope for that range. All that remains now is to practice.
Damn right it's fun. You chose to challenge yourself and push your own limits. You had some success and you want more.
That is what it is all about.

It sounds to me like you weren't using a real realistic shooting postion for that range, although if you could pull it off you certainly have my respect. Next time out, try prone with a good shooting sling. As you get better, you can refine your sight dope and get them all on paper.


Note: I am certainly no expert. I don't claim for a minute to be a great shot. But I LOVE to shoot at longish range with rifles and am really happy to see I am not alone. :) Who cares if you ever have to do it for real ? What if all you get out of it is a lot of fun ? What if it boosts your confidence that you and your rifle can handle any situation within a range of almost a half mile ?
WHAT WOULD BE WRONG WITH THAT ?

[el44vaquero]

I have a Winchester Model 70 in that beloved .30-06 that will accomplish this task. I've even seen this rifle hit the 1k mark in the hands of a more skilled rifleman.

[artherd]

The SU-16 is sketchy out that far, but I have fair confidence in 2-3 out of 5 shots with 75gr ammo. I can ring the 440yd 18" square steel gong with it all day long with a 1x sight and plain m193. Almost boring.

Now, has anyone shot 400yds with a *pistol*?! (Yes they will do it, and many accurate pistols can hit people. I am maybe 1 for 10 with my G34 in 9mm on that same 440yd gong target. Surprisingly little holdover, I aim perhaps 12 feet high.

[444]

So stick a silhouette out there at 600 and see what you can do. It sounds like you have a good chance of hitting it.

You have that gong figured out.
I used to be a member of a club that had a steel elephant at about 250 yards that I could hit all day long with my Ruger MK.II. I would even take friends out there and fire the whole magazine, then sit there for what seemed like a long time and eventually hear ding ding ding....nine times. But, I wasn't a great long range pistol shot. I just knew exactly where to hold on that particular target at that particular range. I am not sure it would directly translate to another place or target. But, you never know until you give it a try. Steel targets are a lot of fun. We have a piece of steel at the club I belong to now, I never measured it but it is about 18" and is at 380 yards (they call it 400 but someone actually measured it and it is a bit under). That makes a great target. Although most of the people that I see shooting at it are firing off the bench using scoped rifles. That isn't much fun, the target is like 4-5 MOA: hitting that from a bench with a scoped rifle shouldn't be much of a challenge. But, from a practical position using iron sights on a battle rifle, it is a pretty good target. It is similar to hitting a person COM at that distance.

[Stinkyshoe]

This is a great thread.

I have not achieved this with a 308, because I have tried that far with it yet. With my old ar set-up(20inch barrel, 3-9x55 atn) I could consistantly ding a 15" wide by 20" tall steel plate with bulk Lake City off the truck hood(@ 700 yards). The holdover was a matter of seeing where the bullet kicked up dust and then compensating, as the BDC went 500. The wind at that distance really plays tricks on stuff. This is not my ideal SHTF rifle though. It'd be interested to see if a scoped FAL could do it....

[Zak Smith]

Weak-hand shooting is important for pistol, carbine, and even precision rifle--
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TR-Carbine-2005/small/IMG_4929.jpg (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TR-Carbine-2005/?medium=IMG_4929.jpg)[ link to LARGER image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TR-Carbine-2005/?medium=IMG_4929.jpg)
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TACPRO-2005/small/165_6528_img.jpg (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TACPRO-2005/?medium=165_6528_img.jpg)[ link to LARGER image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TACPRO-2005/?medium=165_6528_img.jpg)
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TV3G-2005/small/A100_0687_img.jpg (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TV3G-2005/?medium=A100_0687_img.jpg)[ link to LARGER image ] (http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/TV3G-2005/?medium=A100_0687_img.jpg)

Another good skill to practice is left and right rollover prone for when you need to shoot under something very low.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The test 444 mentioned earlier was developed as part of an effort to find a one rifle/gear setup that could accomplish all of the following tasks:

From 15yds, begin advancing on two IDPA targets. Fire two shots to the body of one target, two shots to the body of the next target, one shot to the head of that target and one shot to the head of the next target (box drill) in under 5 seconds. AMust have 6 hits must be in -0 zone.

From 50yds, fire 2 shots standing, two shots kneeling, two shots prone at an IDPA target in under 10 seconds. Must have 6 hits in -0 zone.

From 300yds, fire a single shot at an IDPA target within 15 seconds. Must have hit in -0 zone.

From 500yds fire a single shot at an IDPA target within 20 seconds. Must have hit on IDPA target.

The idea was that a rifle that could accomplish all of those tasks would be a very versatile weapon that should be well suited to a variety of different shooting tasks. I was interested in seeing if there was any common thread between the rifle/shooters that were able to accomplish the tasks.

[mpthole]

oops, double-tap

[mpthole]

The first thing that strikes me is that you appearently have the sight dope for that range. Last time I sighted that rifle, I used the Improved Battle-Sight Zero method. For the 600 yard shot, I just cranked up the elevation to the number 6. I'm as suprised as anyone that it actually worked! :)
It sounds to me like you weren't using a real realistic shooting postion for that range, although if you could pull it off you certainly have my respect. Next time out, try prone with a good shooting sling. As you get better, you can refine your sight dope and get them all on paper. My shooting positions were unrealistic on purpose. I figure in a SHTF-type event, I'm not going to have time to get into a nice comfortable prone position or even a comfortable semi-braced position. So all the shots were from an improvised position.

I'm really looking forward to working on my position shooting at all ranges and I'm fortunate in that my club has some of the top 600 & 1,000 yard shooters in the state/region. Over the next year I plan on taking on the form of a sponge. :)



Bartholomew Roberts: That sounds like a great drill.

[iamkris]

Here's what I posted a while ago about my experiences shooting SHTF rifles at long distances...surplus ammo, prone, kneeling, standing, 40 rounds in 50 seconds every stage

Just shot a "Rattle Battle" Match...what an education

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My club held it's first Rattle Battle match this weekend...it was humbling and educational. The event was 3 stages...each 40 rounds in 50 seconds with 1 mag change. Simulated 600 yd silhouettes at 200 yards prone, simulated 300 yd silhouettes at 200 yards sitting, then 200 yard silhouettes standing.

http://www.bristolranges.com/High_P...power_rifle.htm

I've been interested in rifles over the last 3 or so years after my many-year obsession with pistols and shotguns. Since I've always been a history buff, battle rifles make up over half of my collection and take up most of my shooting.
http://home.comcast.net/~krisnkelley/PICT0034_2.jpg

I've been getting fairly good with my M1A and DSA StG off the bench at 100 and 200 and I've started to shoot prone and sitting at 100. The rifle competition coordinator set up this rattle battle match in reaction to lots of grumbling about the single-load rule. I signed up, loaded up 6 mags with Port surplus and took my trusty DSA StG58A (ol' reliable)...I though it would be a lot of fun to show off my new found skills. Instead, I placed 18th out of 26 competitors.

Here's what I learned..most of the fall in the "well, duh" category but there's nothing like experiencing them to learn them.

A man sized target at 600 yards is really small...and really hard to hit with open sights
Don't judge a book by it's cover...a teenager with long hair and in black pants, a skateboarder shirt, black stocking cap and listening to music between stages made 18 hits on the 600 yard target (I made 2)
Shooting 40 rounds of 308 in 50 seconds accurately is hard to do...the mouse guns ruled in this area
I would have been better off with 15 well aimed shots that connected rather than filling the air with 40 rounds of lead in the general vicinity of the target
Get off the bench...bench shooting is nothing like position shooting
Know your ammo...I have shot 100's of rounds of Port surplus flawlessly in single load....I had 5 FTF (with strong primer hits) in 120 rounds expended during the match
Know your gun...I fumbled quick mag changes...the Falcon Arms spring kit that I installed to give a nice trigger pull may have contributed to the FTFs
Know how to clear your rifle...5 FTF meant lots of quick slap-rack-bang drills...fortunately I did well at these
18 shooters letting off 40 rounds each in 50 seconds is similar to the grand finale of a fireworks show in sound...just awesome
The gun store commandos and gun forum ninjas who debate stopping power and AR vs M1A and bullet yaw and max effective range could stand to shoot one of these matches and realize it has most to do about the rifleman and only a bit about the rifle
I can't imagine having to do this when the targets are shooting back

[oneshooter]

I shoot Highpower once a month. 300, 500,600 yrds. Use as issue sights, handloaded ammo. :D The same rifle I will have with me. :evil:

Oneshooter
Livin in texas

[444]

Bartholomew Roberts: Nice of you to join us. I have been expecting you to chime in here since this started.

"The gun store commandos and gun forum ninjas who debate stopping power and AR vs M1A and bullet yaw and max effective range could stand to shoot one of these matches and realize it has most to do about the rifleman and only a bit about the rifle"

I think I mentioned at some point in this thread that was one of my main points. People endlesslly discuss long range performance of these two cartridges, yet most of them couldn't his a truck at long range making the whole discussion moot IMO.

[slzy]

as close to bragging as i hope to ever be. on an army range we were shooting baloons .the entire squad ran out of ammo except for moi,i flipped the sight up on a worn out m16,walked it in on third shot. 460 yards.would need optics now,unless target was in open. 600 yards is not very far at all,as far as running goes.some one can close a lot of ground in 5 minutes.way yonder more than 600 yards.if you have the place to shoot,i can't see where it would hurt to prepare for most any eventuality.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I used to shoot high power matches. On calm days I could make hits at 600 yards without much trouble. On windy days I was screwed. I never could figure out the wind.

That was back when I had my match grade AR-15. I sold that rifle because it was useless for anything except highpower matches.

My FAL is a fine rifle. I never had a chance to shoot it at long distances. But I'm accurate enough with it that I think I could make hits. I'd have to trust the range markings on the rear sight to get the bullet drop right. But I'm selling that rifle as well, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

This thread is a good reminder that I need to get out there and learn how my remaining rifles shoot at long disntances. Thanks.

Oh, and I need to teach myself how to shoot in the wind...

[444]

Playing around with drills such as those four mentioned by Bartholomew Roberts teach you a lot of your REAL skill level and about how your rifle performs in real life as opposed to how it performs on the internet.
One key thing is to perform the drills and try to make them sort of realistic. For example, when you start each one, you could have your weapon in the condition you would carry it in: normally this means the safety is on. You might have the weapon on a sling, or maybe at the low ready. You use the time limits listed and be honest with yourself if you can't make them. So, you start the timer, you get the weapon off the sling, you assume your firing position, you remove the safety, and you fire the shot (s), in the allotted time.
There is no "walking" the rounds into the target: his drills specify that at 300 and 500 yards you fire ONE shot and hit the target COM. The point is that you know your rifle and where it hits at that range. This isn't trial and error. An enemy or an animal isn't going to stand there while you lob rounds in until you get the range.
Drills should also be added that include magazine changes on the clock such as the El Presidente'. Again, this will show you how practical your chosen rifle really is.
If I could get most of the people on this board to actually try some of this stuff, I think the whole tone of many threads would change dramatically.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Man this thread has not died yet?
long range SHTF weapons Well lets say you bring with you what you have. Now its your choice if you have put in what ever productive training you think you need.
For as far as competitions go you have alot of different types of matches. Now my getting old going on 52 body is not what it used to be so running around shooting IDPA or what ever the hot sport is now does not always fit the person who wishes to learn.

For the average shooter it is hard to find the time to put in, in order to get what some of us call good at something. I have had that talk with some folks on the AMU before about us Duffers. If we shot for a living we just might be pretty good also. With family and work I know it is hard for some of you out there to put in the required time as for 99.9% of us it is a hobby.

Now if you have the time I suggest taking what ever classes you think you need to learn something. But do not expect to be the best at what you want to do with just that.
I have offered a few folks the opertunity to learn shooting with a ar15 in prone as far as I know it. How many folks have taken me up on it? (0).
A few have listened to my way of doing it and it has helped them not to have a train wreck day. Now That I plan on doing long range in the future (say a little this year) in a few years I have talked to a few friends and really want their help. What I know about a service rifle at up to 600 yards is fine but past that is a new game to me so I plan on cutting the learning curve time down by seeking help.

You must remember I could not teach you what I know even in one or two days about long range and that is if you already have it down somewhat. Might get the basics down but the rest of what you learn is up to you.

I'am far from the best and I know that but just putting in my time will not get me where I want to go. Seek out the things you want and learn them like its second nature. I might be wierd but like quite a few olympic shooters and others I shoot every day and 90% of it is in my head. It gets to be pretty automatic to look at a target no mater what it is and just know the distance and what it will take to get you a hit on the first shot.

[slzy]

i should have mentioned when i "walked " the round into the baloon i usually carried an m60 and i carried an m16 instead of a 1911 as a secondary weapon. this was the first time i had shot anything over 300m with a m16 and also the first time i had flipped up the long range aperture on the 16.so 2 shots to zero and one for effect on the fly is not too bad.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

To me, the real challenge is not so much the long range as much as it is being able to do the short and long range with the same rifle. Despite the modest distance of 15yds, the shoot a box-drill while moving in under 5 seconds drill is very demanding. If you can shoot that drill, you are already doing well. If you can shoot that and score first round hits and 500yds, you have a pretty good mastery of that rifle.

[762X39]

Hi Everybody, I am new on this list and I found the question to be very interesting.
My SHTF weapon would actually be my 14 inch barrelled shotgun (it is legal for me to possess one) with my 6.5 swede being my long range backup.
600 yards is beyond my range with the open sighted 6.5 but I do practice at 400 yards on movers (I think they are called #11 targets). To be able to engage targets at these distances requires constant practice (repetition is a useful training tool) while someone more skilled than you gently corrects and observes you.
I am very fortunate to shoot with a good group of people, we rent the local military range for 5 days over the summer months and get lots of practice at ranges of 100 to 800 yards (it will be in metres next year but I digress).
As a point of interest, my service weapon was a C7 (M16A4 I think is what you called it ) as well as a C9 (SAW or Minimi for you Americans).
I like most weapons from past conflicts but I have a soft spot in my heart for the Avtomat Kalishnakov as well as the Russian or Chinese SKS. I know alot of you will get tied up in knots by that statement (yeah I know the Yugo SKS is better made) but to me, a weapon that is rough around the edges but serviceable will serve me fine. It is my "hardened heart" that will save me when the "SHTF" not my weapon.

Regards

John

[444]

Welcome to the board.
I hope you enjoy your stay.

Your Swede is more than adequate for this little drill. Give it a try, you will surprise yourself.

[Brian Dale]

Hey, you've kept this thread going. Cool—now I can play.

Welcome to The High Road, John!

444,This thread is about taking your SHTF rifle and hitting a cardboard target at 600 yards. Can you do it or not ? Have you actually done it or not ?...and...this isn't about a SHTF situation, it is about shooting your SHTF rifle. Just a question about how you feel you would do or how you know you have done on this one event skills test: take your honest, actual SHTF rifle and make one shot out of five on a target at 600 yards.OK.

WayneConrad wrote,Every able American should be able to pull off a war shot if needed.+1.

I've tried it with an M1 in a Highpower match at Camp Butner, NC. I got some great coaching on the 600-yard line, I got hits and I scored points. That was my second-ever HP match, in September of 2001. I just fired my third-ever HP match in September, 2005.

My own personal M1 arrived from the CMP two hours ago.

So I'm working on it.

:)

[Scout Sniper]

I would take more than one gun with me in a SHTF situation to begin with:D , but I tried out my old SKS /w a Monte Carlo stock & a 3x9 scope on it. it stays that way all the time. at 600 years I could hit the target 2 or 3 times out of 5. I don't know if there was enough power left in the round to actually make a vital kill at that range. if I was using this rifle in that situation I WOULDN'T TRY IT !!! if you are going to talk reality use your deer rifle to do it atleast 308 cal. or bigger.

[Stinkyshoe]

IamKris,
What a happy picture! Thank you!:D :p
Ss

[_N4Z_]

well as i'm sure it's already been said... shtf @ 600yards/meters whatever?? kooky talk.

at the age of 19, 20, 21, many many years ago, i qualified both expert and sharpshooter (different times) while in the army using ye ole m16. at that time the long shot was 300 meters (or around 300 yards), at man size flip up targets.

with those young eyes that shape was pretty darned small at 300m and i had 20/20 vision. ghost ring and post, no scope. twice that distance would be very very impressive sans scope imo.

[jacketch]

To me, the real challenge is not so much the long range as much as it is being able to do the short and long range with the same rifle. Despite the modest distance of 15yds, the shoot a box-drill while moving in under 5 seconds drill is very demanding. If you can shoot that drill, you are already doing well. If you can shoot that and score first round hits and 500yds, you have a pretty good mastery of that rifle.
I would agree with you on this. I think I could hit targets at 15(rapid), 50 100, 300 and 600 yards with my rifles but it would require at least three different guns to do it.;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

I shot an iron sighted m-1aNM whilst in field gear from prone off a colt bipod at a moving target at 600 meters (first shot at a walking pace, second to last at a dead run) hit twice out of ten shots.


i haven't fired at anything farther than that.