[Goddess Rhiannon]

Hi all!

I've been thinking of getting a Mossberg HS410 Home Security shotgun for home defense but a salesman is trying to talk me out of it, recommending that I buy a 12 gauge shotgun instead. My concern it the kick/recoil of a 12g, which I hear is formidable for a woman. HE suggested that I use low impact rounds (or something like that) and insists that the kick will be the same as a .410, and that would leave me with more versatility in ammo choices, mods, etc.

So is he right about the low impact/low recoil rounds easing the recoil of a 12g to about the same as a .410 like the Mossberg HS410? Or should I look at a 20g instead, as another friend suggested? I'm 5' 10" tall and in pretty good shape, so I'm not petite by any means, but still not as strong as the guys.

I eventually want a tactical style shotgun as short as I can get it (18" to 18 1/2") and am thinking about a pistol grip to shorten it even more for maneuverability, and am leaning toward one of the Mossberg 500 series shotguns.

Thanking you all in advance for your advice and experience!

Rhiannon

:neener:

[Black Majik]

To some people, the 12 and 20 ga recoil is noticeable, others not.

If you're set on getting a 20 ga for your HD weapon, it is still effective. Use what you feel comfortable with. You can always "move up" into a 12. ga once you get used to your 20.

I'll tell you this though, I have a friend that is 5'3", skinny (don't wanna guess her weight :D but she's light) and she fights over my 12 ga. when we shoot trap.

Took her cousin once, 5'10", chubby guy... and he got a bruise the size of a cantelope on his shoulder since he couldn't mount the 20 ga. correctly.

12 ga. recoil isn't bad. Actually, try to rent one at the range. See if a R.O. can help you out, or take a friend with you. Read up on the forums here for proper mounting.

And of course, whatever you do end up buying, please practice with it. Training is key.

As to my recommendation for a 20 ga., look into the Remington 870 20 ga. Youth model. Or you can always get the full size 870 20 ga, but you'll have to find a shorter barrel for HD use. Actually with the longer barrel and shorter barrel for HD, you can swap barrels and practice your shotgun on the trap/skeet range!

Perfect! :D

[dasmi]

Get what you are comfortable with, don't listen to the salesman. Get your shotgun, train with it, and be safe.

[pax]

Welcome, Rhiannon ~

My best friend is 5'5" tall, and weighs maybe 115 pounds soaking wet. I have seen her handle a 12-gauge with full power loads well enough to put all the guys on the range to shame. She's unbelievably fast and deadly accurate, and the shotgun is, as far as I know, her favorite weapon. Back when she used to compete, she regularly walked away with prizes for her defensive shotgun work.

I'm an inch or two shorter than she is, and (sigh) somewhat rounder. I hate recoil and the shotgun isn't my favorite weapon, but I can shoot magnum slugs out of a Rem 870 pump 12 gauge and do quite well at it.

At LFI-2, I watched one of the other women in the class dump 5 shots out of a Rem 1187 (semi-auto, 12 gauge) in .89 seconds. Full-power buckshot, and all good hits.

What I'm trying to say, in my fumbling way, is that neither the fact that you're female, nor the fact that you're not fond of recoil, means that you can't handle a 12 gauge if you want to do it. With the correct technique, you can easily excel at it and you don't have to be afraid of trying it.

What you're sacrificing with the smaller shotguns is that elusive beast called "knockdown power." I don't know that I'd be happy with a .410 for defense work, but a 20 is certainly big enough to do the job decisively. (Heh, flip side of that: given a choice between a big handgun and a "little" shotgun, I'm pretty sure the shotgun wins. Anyone up for a caliber war?)

For all those reasons, if it were me, I would start with a 20 and light loads. You can move up to a 12 later if you want to.

Edited to add: Oh, yeah. Far, far more important than the .410/20/12 question is simply finding a stock that properly fits you. Most women who hate shotgun hate it because they've never shot one that fits.

pax

There are precious few horror films that couldn't be cut well short by a single loaded 12 ga and someone with the sense to use it. -- K.R. Murphy

[Moonclip]

I'd say 20ga. I'm by no means a girly man but I still see the advantage for 20ga for myself even sometimes.

If a woman is very small or gun shy though the .410 Mossberg may be the way to go. Long ago I had a good friend whos husband bought her one for home defense. She weighed from 90-100 or so lbs so this may have been the best option.

[wdlsguy]

Nothing wrong with a .410 for home defense. Winchester sells 2-1/2" shells with 3 OOO buck and 3" shells with 5 OOO buck. Don't know anybody willing to stand in front of either one.

[ReadyontheRight]

I'm sure you could find a volunteer or two to let you try out a 12 and 20 gauge. If you have no shooting friends locally, keep checking out the folks here on THR and I'm sure you'd find a trustworthy soul or a THR get-together near where you live to take you out shooting.

I'm certainly no self-defense expert, but I would not trust .410 for anything I really wanted to defend. It's better than nothing, but I really don't think you need to be as afraid of recoil as you might think. You can also add a recoil pad to the end of any shotgun stock to absorb recoil.

You SHOULD be afraid of the recoil on a pistol grip only stock - that WILL hurt. And you will not have much control. Try handling a 18" 12 ga. It's likely handier than you might think.

A 20 ga seems the best choice from your info, but get out there and do some shootin' and see what you like! Be sure to wear a sweatshirt, jacket or other clothing with a little padding and pull the shotgun snug against your shoulder. Do NOT use 3" or 3.5" shells. 2.75" are just fine.

[Larry Ashcraft]

which I hear is formidable for a woman
Don't believe everything you hear. I've seen 100 lb women handle a 12 ga with ease.

I started using a shotgun when I was 11 years old. Now I'm 55, 5'7" and 140# on a day with good gravity, and the 12 has never been a problem.

FIT is everything!

[Arub]

If you're in the SE Alabama, SW Georgia or Florida panhandle region, let me know. I below to a couple of clubs in the area and we can pretty much set you up with anything you might wish to try.

[conan]

Think semi-auto shot gun. Benelli or Berretta, since it is a matter of defense. A pump is better than nothing, and certainly more used. But if you have the cash, there is no other choice, Benelli or Beretta semi-automatic. Less recoil, and faster shooting, yet the stoping power of a 12 gauge.

[Black Majik]

Actually the Benelli would recoil more since its recoil operated.

If you want to go the semi-auto route, look into a gas-operated shotgun, it will recoil less than a pump shotgun.

[mnrivrat]

Well , I'm about 6 ft and over 300 lbs.

My shotgun of choice for HD is a youth size Mossberg in 20ga. Very much a personal choice when all is said and done.

There are more things to consider than gauge . As mentioned the gun should fit you and be appropriate for you to handle in size and weight.

Most will consider the .410 a bit light for HD and I agree with that. Although if that's what works for you , it will be a lot better than a baseball bat.

Also look at auto's if recoil is a factor for you. In either 12 ga. or 20 ga. the autos are milder to shoot.

[Dave McCracken]

Welcome aboard, GR. A couple things....

First, learn to shoot shotguns. Local ranges will oft help out new shooters and give lessons. Try some different shotguns and see what works for you. Many veteran shooters will aid a well mannered tyro, male or female.

How a shotgun fits you cannot be overemphasized. At 5'10", you are probably going to be able to shoot adequately with the standard sized stock. Use light loads, good form and have fun.

The Archives here have a series of threads to help new folks get into Shotgunning. Use the advanced search function, 101 for the title/key word and my name as author to find them.

If you live near Central MD, I shoot at PGC sports center near Goddard. While my schedule is kinda crowded, a live session of Shotgun 101 can be arranged.

HTH....

[Greybeard]

I'm with those suggesting a 12 or 20 over any 410 - for several reasons. Most of the female students I've had preferred the 20. In fact, I've a little Ithica pump loaned out to one of 'em right now for her once-a-year dove hunt with customers. While in Wally World yesterday, I saw something quite similar, a slick looking little Remington 870 for just $207.

Another lady friend was recently given a 12 gauge Mossy with pistol grip. She dropped by the range last weekend and asked for some ammo for it "just to have". I gave her a handfull each of light dove loads and low-recoil buck - but insisted she get back pronto for some specific training. Before I let her light off ANYTHING in the pistol-gripped 12 gauge, I plan to have her try same first in 12-gauge 870 with 18" barrel and synthetic stock and traditional shoulder mount. Thensee if she REALLY wants to experience the same on her (semi-frail) wrist ... PM if ya happen to live in DFW area and would like to join us sometime ...

[A Cleaner]

Here's why:

Like Dave McC. said, the standard stock will probably fit you.

Also, Reduced Recoil loads are very easy to shoot. And in a pinch, 12g ammo is more available.

The 870 HD model already comes 18" and holds 7 shells + 1 in the pipe, all black.

I would advise against a pistol grip. It only took one range session with a pistol grip to convince me it's not for me. I lost alot of the manuverability and my ability to retain the weapon was greatly deminished. Plus, there's no faster way to destroy your accuracy than a pistol grip on a shotgun.

While the 870 is a little heavier to hold, the weight helps reduce felt recoil.

And finally, whatever you decide is good for you is just that. It's your gun and your defense so it should fit you, make you feel empowered, and not cause you great discomfort. Try a few out but definitely check out the 870 HD at some point.

Sorry I just wrote a short novel.

[Moonclip]

If you do go the semi auto route and do get a gas operated one for the perceived advantage of less recoil do you homework.

I purchased a Franchi 612 riot version and yes it is a gas operated gun. As it only weighs about 6 and 1/2ponds though, maybe a pound more than a M1carbine, it kicks fairly severely with any sort of serious defensive shotshell load.

[Goddess Rhiannon]

Hi all, and thanks for your suggestions!

The majority of you seem to think that I could probably handle a 12g, so I'm deciding on getting one in either a Mossberg 500/590, or a Remington 870. I may see how the Winchester 1300 fits too.

I've done some research on the whole recoil thing, and I'm pretty sure I can handle a shotgun with this fancy new anti-recoil stock that cuts recoil down by up to a whopping 95%!!! If that's not magic, I don't know what is.

If you're interested, it's called the Knoxx SpecOps Stock (check it out HERE (http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOpsStock.html))!
Watch their video demo...it's amazing! Does anyone here own one of these?

I've been told that if that isn't enough, I can reduce the recoil by 15% by getting Vang Comp (http://www.vangcomp.com/page2.htm) to create "compensating ports" in my barrel, but that'll cost me.

So with low recoil rounds and some of those modifications I should be able to dispatch any bad guy who thinks I'm too cute and helpless for my own good. After the whole New Orleans thing, I wanna be ready for anything.

Oh, and for all of you who so graciously volunteered to help me learn to shoot, many thanks and big hugs! The fact is though, I'm in California so I'm not anywhere near you all. But thanks nonetheless. :p

I'll keep reading the board for any additional suggestions (and I'll look up that Shotgun 101 info). They are very helpful to me and I totally appreciate them all. If you have more, keep 'em coming!

Thanks and hugs,

Rhiannon

[Dave McCracken]

Whoa!!

Technology is a poor substitute for expertise. Advertising claims and reality are oft far apart.

Get a standard shotgun. Get it fitting you. Learn to shoot it. Someplace around your 1000th shell, you'll have an idea of what your shotgun needs. By your 5000th, you'll be certain.

Shotgun bling is seductive, until one comes up short with it. Nothing can replace regular use with a well known shotgun.

[carebear]

The "youth" models being discussed are the same size action as a "standard" they just have a shorter length of pull, which is the distance from the butt to the trigger.

If the LOP is too long for you, you may find the gun feels unwieldy and uncomfortable to shoulder.

I'm getting a youth stock for my 12 ga. Mossberg 500 simply for handiness.

I'd try both a standard and youth in the store before buying either, I think you'll find the difference surprising.

20 guage is definitely easier than 12 but neither is probably beyond you. Again, if you can find a way to try both you'll be better off. There's a lot of trap and skeet clubs out there that'll loan a new shooter a gun to try both gas and pump.

Just don't tell em you want it for home defense. The purists will be horrified. ;)

[HighVelocity]

My wife handles the 870P with Winchester Ranger Low Recoil Buckshot with no problem.
The first time I took her out to shoot it I told her to fire it as fast as she could until it was empty. She ripped through 5 rounds pretty darn quick and said "that wasn't so bad". So I loaded it up again only this time I slipped a 3" mag 00 buck in there. :evil:
When that baby went she said "ouch" and fired the rest even faster. I was in the doghouse but I was a proud hound.

[pax]

Rhiannon ~

PM sent.

pax

[mnrivrat]

Rhiannon ~

PM sent.

pax

If your anywhere near confused , listen to what Pax has to say in her PM . I'd trust her to give you good information.

[Oleg Volk]

I use a 20ga pump. ALL of my femle friends use 12ga pumps or autoloaders. Even 5'3" 110lb ex-GF uses an 870 pump and an 1187 Police gas autoloader.

My own advice would be to get a 20ga pump or a 12ga gas autoloader such as an 1187P. If you don't mind Benelli/FN manual of arms, Franchi 612 is a great choice, short, light and well balanced, but with reasonable recoil.

I would avoid 410. It is not a very effective chambering and can be fairly expensive to feed. Ammo availability would be limited.

Best test would be trying a few at a trap shooting range and making your own decision.

PS: on porting -- not a huge problem with shotguns, but they do increase perceived noise a lot, esp. indoors. One advantage of shotguns over rifles is lower operating pressure and thus less loud report. porting reduces that advantage.

I would also get gloves for operating the gun: on some models, loading the tube magazine in a hurry is a good way to abrade fingertips after a day at the range.

[Goddess Rhiannon]

I logged on here today and my stupid browser blocked a PM. Phooey. :banghead:

Anyway, I bought an 870 7 shot Express Riot, 18" pump 12g. And I do plan on practicing the heck out of this gun. I think I'm going to go with the recommendation from Wilson Combat for ammo:

"For the Remington 870 model Remington Reduced Recoil 8 pellet 00 buck for defense purposes."

Does anyone have an opinion on this ammo for home defense?

Thanks the the continued suggestions. I read and consider every one of them!

Rhiannon

[Dave McCracken]

Goddess, try a few rounds at the patterning board and see how it does in YOUR shotgun.

Each shotgun, outside of some very vague generalities, has its own relationship with a load.

Chances are it'll work OK. But, we have to KNOW!!

BTW, great choice. Enjoy....

[Goddess Rhiannon]

Okay, I figured out how to access pax's PM (I'm new to this).

Pax, you're completely and totally awesome. Thanks!!!

Rhiannon

[Larry Ashcraft]

Pax, you're completely and totally awesome.
Yes, she is.

[berettashotgun]

CCI shotshell 45acp ammo is pretty reliable in a ruger-90 or 97, but comes apart in my Para's.

[355sigfan]

Use a 12 gauge but use reduced recoil tactical ammo. It paterns better is actually more effective and recoils about the same as trap loads. Even out female officers have no problems with it.
Pat

[Greybeard]

Quote: "I bought an 870 7 shot Express Riot, 18" pump 12g."

Good choice. FWIW, the Federal "Tactical Buck" holds the tighest pattern out of mine. But, I've not had a chance to try the relatively new "TAPS" load ...

I have shot lots of Remington "Reduced Recoil" buckshot and slugs, available here at places like Sportsman's Warehouse for $2.50 to $3.00 per box of 5. If ya can find 'em (typically at gun shows), various brands somewhat cheaper in boxes of 25.

Another FWIW ... I recently had my 18" "Riot Gun" threaded for scew-in choke tubes for some additional versatility. It currently has an extra heavy "super full" choke in it, but can also accept the improved cylinder or modified chokes out of my semi-auto quail gun ...

Defensive ammo-wise, you'll likely hear advice rangeing all the way from #8 birdshot to slugs... Mine is most commonly loaded with the Federal "Low Recoil" Tactical 00 mentioned above (With a few slugs handy on the side.)

An interesting-sounding load I want to pattern shortly is EnvironMetal's "Dead Coyote", Hevi-Shot in T's (20 caliber pellets) ... http://www.hevishot.com/home.html

[Gordon]

If I was a female I think I would NOT use a semi auto. The smaller females in classes I attended had problems with reliablity on 1100s and Benellis that were traceable to lack of upper body mass/strength.
An 20ga. 870 lightweight youth would be about perfect IMHO. The Benelli Nova 20 ga youth deer gun would be good too. The one my wife has now, and likes alot, is a 20 ga Ithaca Deer Slayer , which I cut the stock down to 12 1/2" with a limbsaver pad. No mag extension so is "only" 5 shots :rolleyes: but is real light and easy to shuck with the Model 37 typical short shuck. ;)

[A Cleaner]

GR,

Excellent choice on your shotgun purchase :D

Also, I use the same ammo in my HD shotgun. It patterns really tight for me. Speaking of patterning, Patterning 101, if you haven't already found it, is an awesome thread. It is the first Sticky post at the top of the shotgun forum. Mr. McC wrote it and has done us all a favor by doing so. Check it out.

Congrats on the purchase. Now go practice. Shoot the heck out of it.

[spacemanspiff]

I'm getting a youth stock for my 12 ga. Mossberg 500 simply for handiness.
carberry is the only person i know over 6 feet tall that wants a shottie with a youth stock. then again, he always retracts the stocks on AR's to the shortest position before firing as well. maybe he doesnt know he's a "big kid"?

:neener:

hornady makes the low recoil buckshot loads for semi-auto shotguns, they work just fine in a pump and are pleasant to shoot. you might also consider some of the birdshot loads for reduced penetration of walls but adequate penetration of intruders at close distances.

[carebear]

Spiffy,

If you were a "Former Action Guy" like me you'd know that the shorter LOP makes it easier to mount the gun with armor and full battle rattle on.

:evil:

[spacemanspiff]

{sigghhhhh}
we've been over this a dozen times. you are a Former Action Individual Recon Yuppy. I'm the Fat Arse Greenhorn.

spacemanyoumissedoutonafunnightspiff

[det.pat]

i have always been told by training officers that you should always give up length on the barrel end than on the stock end. a shorter barrel [within legalities] hinders your effectiveness less than a pg or an ill fitting stock.
pat

[sumpnz]

Goddess - You wouldn't happen to have once studied at Embry-Riddle? I knew a gal there with the same name.

Anyway, where in CA do you live? There's a combined AZ/SoCal THR group shoot coming up in Yuma in early November. The thread on that is here (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151958). A bunch of us will be camping out there as well. We'd love to have you join us. My wife might also come, so you wouldn't be the only woman (though if she does make it, we'll be splitting range time and parenting time - unfortunatly 17 month olds just aren't a good thing to have around a shooting range).

[Goddess Rhiannon]

Thanks everyone for your continued comments. They've all been very useful!

I just ordered a SpecOps recoil reducing stock from Larry at Knoxx Industries and it arrived less than 24 hours from when I ordered it. Now if that isn't lightning quick, I don't know what is! Too bad I still have to wait 5 days until I can pick up my 870.

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I definately will be getting the reduced recoil ammo -- Scattergun Tech/Wilson Combat suggests Remmington Reduced/Managed Recoil and a lot of other people also say that Federal's equivalent is good, so I'll look for either.

And I found some trainers out my way so I'll be good to go.

Ciao for now!

Rhiannon

p.s. We'll see about the Yuma event...I doubt my 6 week old baby boy would enjoy it though!

[sumpnz]

If my wife comes along I'm sure between me and her we can look after him. Our (by then 19 month old) daughter will have to be looked after away from the firing line anyway. Unless you're breastfeeding his dad might even enjoy a weekend with just him too.

Anyway, sounds like you're well on your way to having a pretty good setup for a HD shottie. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[Nematocyst]

Goddess Rhiannon: Welcome.

Nice to see yet another woman on this forum, especially one that calls herself 'goddess'. Rock on, mam.
{{I dream of what THR could be with equal numbers of both genders. {Can you spell 'rock 'n roll'?}}}

My 2c: reread posts from Pax & Dr. Dave McC. Not just in this thread, but all threads. Same goes for a lot of other fine, intelligent, often wise folks around this neighborhood. Learn from the knowledgeable ones; ignore the ones that don't feel right, somehow. Ask questions. I have. And I've learned lots. And I don't even have my 870P yet. (Have I mentioned in the last 73 minutes that the IRS refund, with which i will purchase said beautiful steel barrel with speedfeed stock, has still not arrived?)

May I suggest: do LOTs of reading in the shotgun forum; "mine" the archives using keywords in the search function before doing any mods to your shottie. If you don't find the topic you're seeking, just ask.

As for the recoil issue: I'm a guy not substantially more massive than you. I don't like recoil either. (Grew up with 20 ga., then 16 ga.) Yet, I'm buying a 12. Thanks to links (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html) I've found on this forum, added to memories of shotgun use in my teens, I've learned that dealing with recoil is less about technology and more about knowing how to position your body upon trigger pull.

{More knowledgeable shotgunners will correct my mistakes.}

E.g., set up a stance with securely held shottie (with proper stock length) pulled firmly into your right shoulder {assuming you're a rightie}. Your feet are slightly more than shoulder width apart. Your left foot is 45 degrees in front of your right. {Ooooh. That's gotta sting our more conservative forumite friends. :neener: } Your head is leaning over your left foot.

Reread: your head is leaning over your left foot. Lean into the shot.

Upon trigger pull, that 12 ga. recoil pushes your body backwards from its forward position onto your right leg.
It's all about letting your body flow backwards with the recoil.

If you're standing too tight, it jerks you.

Go with the flow,
you're good to go.

OK, so much for poetry;
this is a gun forum.

Hang out for a while.
You'll like it here. ;)

[Goddess Rhiannon]

Nematocyst-870 wrote:

My 2c: reread posts from Pax & Dr. Dave McC. Not just in this thread, but all threads.

I've learned that D. McC. and pax (and some others) really know their $#!T when it comes to shotguns. I've done some browsing in other threads like the shotgun 101 stuff, and sometimes I get some good stuff there. Other times I have no freaking idea what they're talking about (e.g., "Patterning 101" -- Patterning? Whas dat? :o ). I'm sure when I take a shooting lesson, I'll get all the lingo straight though.

Since you said that I should ask questions, tell me...why are you getting the police model 870 instead of the Express Riot like I got?

Thanks for the suggestions on stance. Gives me a head start. :p

Rhiannon

[Nematocyst]

Rhiannon,

First my disclaimer: take everything I write here with a grain of salt, including my suggestions about stance that I wrote last night. That little label to the left of here may say "senior member", but that's only because I've posted a lot in the two months I've been on this great forum. I'm really a novice. Even though my shotgun was my main weapon when I was a teen, I haven't owned one in years. I'm really on THR to learn from the folks who know what they're doing.

I wrote my suggestions based on what I think to be correct, knowing that if I'm too far from wrong, others will kindly correct me.

As for patterning, you'll get the idea better by reading some threads on the topic, especially Patterning 101. The basic idea is that until you do that procedure with your specific shotgun (yes, the one in your hand, not just the same model), with several different types of shells (e.g., 00 v. #1 buck or #7 birdshot), and makers (e.g., Remington v. Federal), for various distances (say 5, 15 & 25 yds...), you won't know what kind of pattern the projectiles (e.g., buckshot or birdshot) will produce at any given yardage.

Patterning involves shooting your shottie under controlled conditions at a stationary "target" (like a large piece of paper with a dot on it for target) so that you can see what pattern is produced. Once you find the pattern that works best for you, stick with that specific shell by that specific maker so you know what it'll do. Once I find the 'one', i'll probably buy a case.

When I was a kid, I never patterned my shottie. No wonder I missed so many rabbits & birds. :o Even when I joined THR a while back, I might have scoffed at the need to pattern. But after reading a bunch of posts and threads about it, now I'm a believer. That's the first thing I'll do when I get my 870.
_____

As for why I'm buying an 870P (as opposed to, say, an eXpress), the 870P is just a little "better" weapon, at least in the minds of some (including mine after MUCH reading). Not that the eXpress isn't a fine gun. It is. But just like auto makers produce several different models at different price points, Remington makes several 870's for slightly different price points. The 870P is subject to a bit higher manufacturing standards (materials, buffing, coatings, etc) than the eXpress, so it costs a few bucks more. (Actually, about $150 more last I looked.)

While both are very good, servicable weapons, the P is produced for professionals who's life is on the line everyday, who want it to rack smoothly from day one, and not just at the range.

And (I confess), I have a habit of buying the best I can even if I don't really "need" the best. (If I had a new baby like you do, I'd be perfectly happy with an eXpress.)

If you search the shotgun forum (keyword: 870P), you'll find lots of discussion about this topic, about what is the real difference between eXpress and 870P.

Here's an informative one (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=142734&highlight=870p) that I bookmarked. Read post #8 by dfariswheel. (I'm starting to agree guys: maybe that thread should be a shotgun sticky.)

For me, after a lot of reading first, I started going to gun shops. Most, including Costco, carried the express. When I first picked up the 870P, shouldered it, and racked it, I immediately felt the difference. For example, at least on the 870P with synthetic Speedfeed stocks, the stock is shorter than the eXpress by some large fraction of an inch. That translates to faster shouldering.

The fore-end of the 870P doesn't have quite as much lateral play as the eXpress. Not that's it's a lot on the X, but it's just less on the P. Tighter tolerances in the machining.

Plus, there are more options available with the P than with the Xpress model: various combinations of sights (bead, GR, rifle); stock (Speedfeed 1, II, III, IV, or wooden); magazine extension (standard; +2); barrel length (14", 18", 20"). {I've got my combo already picked out. Hold the mayo, extra tomato & onion, please.}

Still, again, I agree with many, including Dave McC: an 870 of any flavor - long-barreled Wingmaster, eXpress HD, 870P, marine magnum, ... - is a great shotgun.

AND, regardless of which one you own, THE most important thing you can do with it is BA/UU/R ("Buy Ammo/Use Up/Repeat"). That is, practice, practice, practice until it's use deployment from deep sleep to awake to rack is fast and as second nature as brushing your teeth.

Otherwise, it's just a dangerous paperweight standing near (or under) your bed.

Hope this helps.

NemA~

[The_Antibubba]

I'm sorry, but "Goddess Rhiannon" and "870P" are giving me incongruous images! :D

Where in Cali are you? (I'm in the Capitol)

A lot of shotgun recoil is mental. Some people have seen too many movies. A decent recoil pad and proper shouldering technique will overcome most of the problem. That-and PRACTICE.

Welcome to THR. Look around, and make yerself comfy.

[Nematocyst]

A decent recoil pad and proper shouldering technique will overcome most of the problem. The pad. I totally forgot to mention the pad. Thanks, AB.

R3 for me, please. (http://www.remington.com/accessories/factory_parts/r3.htm)

PS: Laurie Anderson rocks.
Saw her last (unfortunately) on the first night of her Strange Angels tour in ABQ.
Beyond fantastic. :cool:

[VG]

Does anyone have an opinion on this ammo for home defense?

Federal "Tactical" [reduced recoil] 00 and Speer Lawman #4.

[rustymaggot]

i was gonna recommend knoxx products but i see you have found them already. glad you got somthing your happy with. the 00buck is a good choice for home use. only thing further i would recomend is to have a good flashlight for target verification.