AR15 pre-ban upper on a post ban lower,is it legal?


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megatronrules
March 26, 2003, 08:46 PM
Well if you have a 20inch barrel pre ban upper and want to put it on a post ban lower is this legal? Also would you have to remove the bayo lug and pin the flash hider permantly? Im confused here. Thanks for any help.

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Hkmp5sd
March 26, 2003, 08:48 PM
Not legal. The post-ban lower may not have an upper with a bayonet lug, threaded barrel or flash suppressor. And as far as ATF is concerned, if you are in possession of a post-ban lower and a pre-ban upper, even if they are not attached, you are in possession of an illegal post-ban assault rifle.

bedlamite
March 26, 2003, 08:51 PM
Hopefully, it will be legal after September '04

megatronrules
March 26, 2003, 08:54 PM
This sucks :( I have to buy a pre ban upper now :( those cost a fortune! Damn it all.:(

Redlg155
March 26, 2003, 08:56 PM
oops...HK beat me to it. :D



Good Shooting
Red

QuarterBoreGunner
March 26, 2003, 08:59 PM
if you are in possession of a post-ban lower and a pre-ban upper, even if they are not attached, you are in possession of an illegal post-ban assault rifle.

Hkmp5sd- are you sure about this? I thought they had to be assembled into a complete rifle.

Redlg155
March 26, 2003, 09:03 PM
And as far as ATF is concerned, if you are in possession of a post-ban lower and a pre-ban upper, even if they are not attached, you are in possession of an illegal post-ban assault rifle.

I would think it would be a very hard case to make that stick. There are plenty of folks out there that own pre ban uppers and no pre ban lowers.

I think the key here is whether or not the components are assembled into a complete rifle to be a violation. As with the 94 bill, your rifle must have been assembled into a complete rifle prior to the bill in order for it to qualify for pre ban status.

Good Shooting
RED

Hkmp5sd
March 26, 2003, 09:26 PM
ATF most definately considers having the parts to make a particular firearm as being the same as having that firearm in an assembled state.

Here is one example dealing with possession of an AR 15 and possession of a registered M16.

4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches)
for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a
rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches)
barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with
one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their
possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a
violation of the NFA.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter90.txt

Here is one on possessing a M16, spare parts for the M16 and possessing an AR at the same time.

In our previous correspondence we stated that an individual, who
possesses a registered M-16 machinegun, certain AR-15 type
automatic rifles and M-16 type fire control components may have a
combination of parts from which an additional and unregistered
machinegun can be assembled. We therefore strongly advise against
the stockpiling of additional M-16 fire control components. You
may, on a one for exchange basis, replace M-16 fire control
components when necessary. This would avoid the possibility of
possessing an unregistered machinegun. Unless or until an actual
need arises for you to replace an M-16 part, we strongly advise
once again that you resist the urge to maintain an inventory of M-
16 parts. However, possession of replacements parts for your
registered machinegun and AR-15 Sporter type semiautomatic rifle
designed not to accept standard M-16 fire control components would
not place you in jeopardy of possessing an additional, and
unregistered, machinegun.
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter55.txt

Here's one on having a Luger or broomhandled Mauser with a barrel <16" and possessing a shoulder stock attachment that is not registered as a SBR.

However, a hand gun of this type permanently altered by
removing the stock attachment device on the hand grip so that a
stock may not be attached is a pistol as defined in section 179.35
of the regulations. Such attachment devices may be eliminated by
taking off the lug on the hand grip of the Luger type gun or
permanently welding closed the slot on the hand grip of the semi-
automatic Mauser type gun.

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/rr_6145.txt

Redlg155
March 26, 2003, 09:51 PM
Ok..If I'm understanding the intent of this letter correctly if you own a pre ban lower you may only own one pre ban upper for the lower if you also own post ban lowers at the same time.

Correct?

Good Shooting
RED

ether
March 26, 2003, 09:52 PM
The ATF says a legal preban assault rifle is one that was completely assembled before the ban OR in complete kit form before that date. I would think the door would swing both ways on this one. If you have all the parts available to assemble a complete postban (illegal) assault rifle, then you are in violation of the stupid law.

Now I think this would only apply if the parts were lying around in unassembled (kit) form, i.e. a preban upper in one corner and a postban lower in another corner. Just because you could take the upper off of your complete preban assault rifle and replace the upper on your complete postban rifle, doesn't mean you intend to.

megatronrules
March 26, 2003, 09:57 PM
well i was going to get a 20in Colt upper and put it on a new post ban lower. Cant get anything now:(
Thanks for the info guys.

ether
March 26, 2003, 09:59 PM
Just get a 20" postban upper from Bushmaster....it will probably be cheaper anyway....and as good or better than the Colt.

AR-10
March 26, 2003, 10:25 PM
If you own a preban lower, you may have as many preban uppers for it as you like, regardless of whether or not you also own postban rifles of the same design.

The reference to SBRs and full auto weapons is a seperate issue.

If you only own a postban lower or complete rifle, and a preban upper as well, it could be construed as constructive intent. If you have a preban rifle, extra preban uppers, and a solitary postban lower with no postban upper, that could be viewed as constructive intent.

megatronrules
March 26, 2003, 11:16 PM
Im going to just save up and get a Bushy. I am greatful for the advice. I thought I would ask here first before i put down my money. Thanks again guys. Im going to just say no to this one.

Handy
March 27, 2003, 12:02 AM
I don't know where those quotes came from, but old Mauser Broomhandles with stock are NOT SBRs, they are exempt. Ask any Mauser collector.


The only thing that makes an upper "preban" is that it has features that can't be put on a postban gun. Remove those features, and you're fine.

There is no way that the ATF prosecutes people with both a post ban AR and a legal M16 because the parts swap. Using the same logic, you couldn't own a TC Contender carbine and a Contender pistol at the same time. The are more than a few weapons that are almost identical pistols and rifles. The actual intent to make an illegal rifle is different than just having the parts.

I would avoid having just post ban lowers and a preban upper. But again, who's making the case against you?

Hkmp5sd
March 27, 2003, 07:30 AM
The reference to SBRs and full auto weapons is a seperate issue.

The reference does apply. If you have one AR lower and one M16 lower and two <16" uppers, ATF claims your AR is now a SBR.

If you have one M16 and one AR-15 and spare parts for your M16, ATF says the AR-15 is now an unregestered machinegun.

If you have one pre-ban AR and one post-ban AR and own 2 pre-ban uppers, ATF will consider your post-ban AR to now be an illegally owned post-ban AR-15.

And this is merely possession, has nothing to do with actually assembling.

I don't know where those quotes came from, but old Mauser Broomhandles with stock are NOT SBRs, they are exempt. Ask any Mauser collector.

That is a ruling put out by ATF. It was originally issued in 1954 and was modified in 1961. Collectors may say they are excempt, but according to this document, they may in fact be in violation. I don't know.

Onslaught
March 27, 2003, 11:45 AM
This sucks I have to buy a pre ban upper now those cost a fortune! Damn it all.......
.....well i was going to get a 20in Colt upper and put it on a new post ban lower. Cant get anything now
Megatron... I don't understand your delimma here.

If you already own the POST-BAN LOWER, then buying the upper is no problem. Preban and Postban uppers are the SAME PRICE.

If you already had the PRE-BAN UPPER, and needed a PRE-BAN lower, that's where the expense comes in!!! Some pre-ban lowers can run as much as a complete post-ban rifle!

Another option is to send your upper to a gunsmith like Kurts Kustom and have them shave the wings off the bayo lug, then permanently attach a muzzle brake to the threaded barrel. If the brake is truely permanently attached, then the threads aren't an issue.

Good luck.

Don Gwinn
March 27, 2003, 11:46 AM
I did some research on the Mauser issue last year when two respected TFL moderators disagreed (my dad has a broomhandle on the wall.) I can't recall the source, but I ended up proving to my satisfaction that the Mausers are indeed exempt. You could probably find the post on TFL with the search function, but I don't know if it would be worth the trouble.

1911govt
November 12, 2008, 11:28 PM
I know I am reviving a VERY old thread but I was wondering if this still applied since currently there is no AWB. I have a colt from 2000 I'd like to modify.

flyboy1788
November 12, 2008, 11:33 PM
1911 govt- you just answered your own question. There is currently no AWB. For most states that is:D if you live in kommifornia or massachusetts it might be different

1911govt
November 12, 2008, 11:39 PM
That's what I figured. How does LE determine if a lower is compatible with an upper - god forbid another AWB? Is this something they actively look for?

flyboy1788
November 12, 2008, 11:54 PM
if you buy those items now, you will not be affected by a future AWB, unless they try to confiscate our weapons. If that is the case we will have bigger problems to worry about.

Logan5
November 13, 2008, 12:05 AM
How does LE determine if a lower is compatible with an upper - god forbid another AWB? Is this something they actively look for?

If the upper and lower are both under the driver's seat or in the trunk with any quantity of illegal drugs, the officer may reasonably presume that they are compatible. The issue could come up some other way, but I haven't heard of it happening yet, and I'm in a state where these rules still apply.

Also, impressive thread necromancy.

1911govt
November 13, 2008, 12:57 AM
I think I acknowledged the fact I was reviving an old thread. If I had started a new one, would you have used a multi-syllable word describing how one should search first? I did search BTW. What would the word be anyway. I'm a member of another forum and I want to look cool by using it. I have 1132 posts on the other forum which makes me smart and somewhat of an authoritarian.
Email me that word or PM me because I can't wait to use it.

jeff-10
November 13, 2008, 01:15 AM
How does LE determine if a lower is compatible with an upper - god forbid another AWB? Is this something they actively look for?

Heh, I still remember when a lot of THRr's thought the AWB would not be allowed to expired. Its been 4 glorious years.

How does LE determine if a lower is compatible with an upper - god forbid another AWB? Is this something they actively look for?

Its at this point impossible to predict what future gun control legislation will look like. The stuff on the the table right now is not even being realistically considered. Join the NRA and help make sure that we have no new gun control legislation.

Ignition Override
November 13, 2008, 01:26 AM
Jeff-10:
"Roger that". As some posters have claimed, the AWB reality cost both Bill Clinton and Gore not only 'political capital', but it might have cost Gore the election.

If Obama is as smart in politics as he must be, to have achieved so much at his age, he has learned from Clinton and Gore just how much damage can be caused by an AWB. Let's hope that in several months, he declines to pass both an increase in ammo tax or ban imported ammo.

I'm curious as to what political points he can score from banning the foreign stuff or increasing the taxes?
This could take time away from critical domestic agendas, or would it?
I knew nothing about the previous AWB etc and am playing catch-up
(for my age).

1911govt
November 13, 2008, 01:53 AM
Obama is going to assume office as the commander in chief of a country just shy of collapse. I doubt he'll concern himself with gun control immediately.

CSestp
November 13, 2008, 02:15 AM
control will not be an issue, money for all the programs he intends on starting will. Taxes seem very real to me, because the gun community will give a sigh of relief just because he didn't go after actual guns.

peck1234
November 13, 2008, 02:44 AM
very true^

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