2003 came in with a bang....got shot at!!


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Carbon_15
January 1, 2003, 04:44 PM
Well, 2002 was one hell of a bumpy ride and if the start of 2003 is any indication, it may be as well.
Long story short:
A close friend invited me to a huge outdoors New Years party. I rarely do the party thing, but hey...its a special occasion and I'm newly single, so what the heck. I was planing on invibing some adult beverages (again...almost never) so I left my CCW at home. Everyone is having a great time. I got to spend some time with some friends that had been neglected while I was married, made some new ones, the ball droped, it was all gravy. Shortly after 12, some folks show up that noone knows. Everyone just assumes they are with someone else and goes on having fun. About 20 min. later Drunken Outsider A starts getting frisky with Drunken Insider B's girlfriend. Next thing you know there is a big brawl going. See ya...funs over, lets not do it again sometime. As I'm heading for the car, I see my idiot friend is in the thick of it....Dang I hate being the level headed one. Time to pull his backside out of the fire again. Then all of a sudden "bang bang bang etc". People scatter like roaches. Bullets are kicking up dirt and snaping branches all around me. 3 gang banger types are blasting away indiscriminatly with "9's" held hollyweird style. My hand has already automaticly went for my 239 but nothing is there....gotta find cover. The trio of thugs peeled out leaving behind 47 empty 9mm casings and a bunch of scared sheep. Thank God noone was hit...it was nothing short of a miracle (Pulp Fiction comes to mind). Once the smoke clears and the police get everones statement, I round up my friends and once again head for the car....my brand new Saturn SC2....only to find it sporting 2 new bullet holes and a shattered driver side window. Ding resistant door panels didnt help. Beleave it or not..noone elses preperty got damaged. Noone was hurt, and I was the only one with a shot up car, so it turned out darn good considering what could have happened....But curse the luck. 70 some odd cars, a large house, 47 rounds sprayed, and my car is the only thing hit. Now I remember why I don't go to parties very often.
If nothing else, I learned a little bit about myself by "seeing the elephant". I always thought I woud be terrified in a situation like that, but I was earily calm...untill the dust settled. Then the fear and shock of what could have happened set in.

thanks so much for the new board Oleg and everyone who helped. Happy New Year everyone.
Now if you will excuse me, I'll be picking glass shards out of my arse.

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critter
January 1, 2003, 05:04 PM
Glad you are ok!

Just some curious questions if you don't mind. Having had time to think about the situation, what would you have done if you had your CCW with you? Were you close enough and were you 'cool' enough and was the crowd thin enough so that you could have returned fire without undue danger to innocents? Would that have been called for and proper? Would it have been legally defensable? Would you have done so?

Consider these rhetorical if you wish. Just some things ALL of us who carry MUST consider!

Again, glad it was only glass and sheet metal that took a hit! With that many rounds flying around and a large group of people, it could have been a real bad scene!

tomkatz
January 1, 2003, 05:45 PM
What a wild new years story, this reminds me why I stay home with my wife and hopefully stay safe. Early dinner out and home by 7:30. Glad nobody got hurt, sorry about your new car. Did these bangers get caught for this?....tom

Carbon_15
January 1, 2003, 07:32 PM
critter, in theory it would have been a textbook legal and safe shoot. After the first 'bang' the crowd thined out VERY rapidly. To give you an idea of the orientation: I was walking towards the brawl to nab my buddy when the first shot was fired. I was probly 20 yards away and the area was fairly well lit thanks to a huge bonfire. When the shots went off, everyone ran towards the parking area leaving nothing but air, lead and opportunity between me and the BG's....and nothing but woods behind them. If I had had my weapon I most likely would have returned fire. I'm quite confident in my ability to put rounds on target at the distances that presented themself (I prefer to practice at ranges from 3-30 yards with my CCW....I know most self defence shooting happen at 7....MOST. Prepair for the worst and all). I was sober enough (probly had 4 beers in as many hours) and confident enough in my weapon and ability to have returned fire. Judging by the way I was instictivly reverting back to training, if I had had my Sig, the most likely outcome would have been a quick pair to COM to each of the 3 gunslingers....depending on how fast the other 2 could turn tail when the first one falls. Probly not fast enough since they were just acting like targets....not using cover, not moving, just standing there side-by-side blasting away.
Would I have fired...no doubt. Would the shooting have been legal, defensable, and safe for the goodguys...I'm as sure of it as one can be in hindsight.

Amen tomkatz. I thouraly enjoyed being the boring ol' married guy...while it lasted. As of today the nut jobs thugs haven't been arrested, but it shouldn't be long. I was able to give the police a tag number and a detailed description of the shooters and their car. saddly enough the only thing the 'condition white' sheeple could agree on was their race.

Thought you guys might find this interesting. The one on the right was dug out of my passenger side seat (probly the one that went through the window) and the one on the left was found stuck in the firewall (went through the hood, took out some wires and whatzits and stuck base first in the firewall). We cant find the 3rd. They were shooting S&B 115's.

Shawn Dodson
January 1, 2003, 07:35 PM
It's always the good guys who end up getting hurt at parties, eh? In your case, thankfully the only thing hurt was your car. The knuckleheads who always cause the trouble never seem to get hurt.

laynlow
January 1, 2003, 07:46 PM
I'm glad you and everyone is OK. That situation sounds like a bad dream where you are naked and can't find any clothes. You reach for you gun, and it isn't there. :uhoh:

4v50 Gary
January 1, 2003, 07:54 PM
Best to have someone at the door to screen the guests. Not on the guest list, you stay out. End of problem. I hate parties and I hate drunks. Those guys went to the party looking for a fight. :mad:

Glad you're safe Carbon_15.

Carbon_15
January 1, 2003, 08:03 PM
Two things we wholeheartedly agree on Gary.

*well...3, Im glad Im safe too:D *

Mike Irwin
January 1, 2003, 08:18 PM
And people wonder why I stay home on New Year's when I live in the Washington, DC, metro area...

gryphon
January 1, 2003, 08:38 PM
4v50 Gary,

I agree that works 95% of the time, but had a friend from high school, went to a party(This happened many moons ago). Only people they were letting in were people that they knew. One guy brings a couple of "friends" with him, only no one else knows them. THey are asked to leave. They do, but come back later and do a drive by on the house while the party is going on. No one was hurt, but it's a shame that thugs seem to think that if they are not having fun, then someone else should be in abject misery.

Navy joe
January 1, 2003, 09:58 PM
Any sensible party in an urban area ought to have designated carriers as well as designated drivers. It's simple, go to party, wear gun, don't drink.

Redlg155
January 1, 2003, 10:10 PM
Good to hear that you are ok. Condolences about the car. (edited for language)

To make light of things..you know folks pay for those bullet hole stickers. You got the real McCoy!:D

I hope they catch the idiots. Too bad no one was filming the New Years Eve party.

Good Shooting
RED

sm
January 1, 2003, 10:24 PM
Glad your ok, glad eveyone ok. Sorry about car. Like others I stay home, don't drink. Heck I didn't go out when I did drink--to many amateurs.

At least you provided info. to officers.

Cal4D4
January 1, 2003, 10:40 PM
Happy New Year Carbon!

M1911
January 1, 2003, 10:44 PM
Heck I didn't go out when I did drink--to many amateurs.I do my drinking at home. I never go out on New Years Eve, even if I wasn't going to drink -- too many amateurs.

Carbon_15
January 1, 2003, 11:14 PM
LMAO @ Redlg155

BTW...its wasn't an Urban area....Very rural infact

Carbon_15
January 1, 2003, 11:16 PM
Happy New Year 4D4...and everyone

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 11:29 PM
Glad you're okay, Carbon. :what:

Please keep us informed about whatever else about the incident you can.

How'd you get the slugs to take a picture of them?

thumbtack
January 1, 2003, 11:45 PM
Jesus :eek:

Glad to hear that noone was hurt. I hope that someone puts that :cuss: trio in the ground before that can hurt anyone.

AZTOY
January 1, 2003, 11:54 PM
Glad your ok, glad eveyone ok

Sorry about the car and i hope the rest of the year is better for you.

thaddeus
January 1, 2003, 11:54 PM
That is a good experience to live through. Now you know what it is like and how you would react next time. If I were you, I would be very happy at how you reacted. You reverted to training, kept your head and were clear-headed enough to be a witness.

You never really know how someone is going to act until the SHTF. I have seen some people freak out, babbling non-sensibly, and seen others remain very collected. The latter are the ones you want on your team, and the former are the ones soldiers fear having on their team when the time comes to act.

So, after your experience, what do you think of the argument that "you will never be able to see (or use) your front sight in a real shooting situation" among other claims that your training will go out the window? I already got my answer when the time came for me.

I had a similar experience to yours on a New Year's Eve party. It was so violent and sudden, and had such an impact on my life, it changed my behavior forever. Since that night I have realized that violence happens quickly and for no reason, with no rhyme or reason. Anyway, my point was that New Year's Eve seems to really bring the crazies out.
The guys that attacked me went to jail, mainly because I had the presence of mind to write their license plate number on my hand during the attack. I hope the same for your aggressors.

PATH
January 1, 2003, 11:59 PM
Pretty scary stuff. I am sorry about your car but more importantly I am glad you are here to share this story with us. Sometimes things don't turn out so well. I hope they catch those creeps!

ahenry
January 2, 2003, 12:41 AM
Glad you’re ok. Pulp fiction like indeed!

Its nice to know how you will react in a situation like that. If something like that ever happens again, you’re now that much ahead of the game.

MMcCall
January 2, 2003, 12:52 AM
Any sensible party in an urban area ought to have designated carriers as well as designated drivers. It's simple, go to party, wear gun, don't drink.

I ALWAYS volunteer to drive these days, and I consider the CCW part of the "sober" responsibility, although I don't advertise it to my friends.

Skunkabilly
January 2, 2003, 01:13 AM
:eek: glad you're safe and with us again.

itgoesboom
January 2, 2003, 01:42 AM
Glad to hear that you are safe Carbon.

I am also sad to hear about your marriage. I remember reading your post when things started to happen, and i was actually wondering what happened to ya last week sometime.

Good to see you back.

Stay Safe.

I.G.B.

45R
January 2, 2003, 01:53 AM
Carbon_15

Glad to hear that your okay, and I'm sorry to hear that your New Year started off with somewhat of a bang. Its too bad that your car was shot up. Its only a materail possesion your life is more important. Glad that your still with us. God have helped them if you had your Sig. :fire:

Have a great New Year.


45R

eviltravis
January 2, 2003, 02:12 AM
Well, this has to be the worst thing that can possibly happen to you this year. It's all down hill from here!
Seriously though, I'm glad no one was hurt. Too bad about the car. What did your insurance agent say?

chaim
January 2, 2003, 02:16 AM
I'm also glad you are ok. I'm going to add my voice to the voices saying that if you are in a CCW area you should have a designated carrier as well as a designated driver (well, I guess they could be the same person). Also, if you were planning to be sober enough to drive you should have been sober enough to carry (no one should drive if they drank enough to notice, I won't put a number on it since for some it is less than one, for me I put the limit at 2, 3 if it is a long period of time and I'm 250lbs).

Anyway, try to put a good face on it (as you did), you now know how you'll react. Everyone thinks they know how they would (and many people think they know how others they know will) react in a, um, situation but you don't until you've been there. Often times you will be really surprised- the monstrous guy you'd think could handle it pees himself and the 130lb twig becomes Swartzenager (and with some forum members here both may be the case :D ). I'm glad I've had the couple scary situations I've had and know that I'm stupid, I mean calm, enough to not blindly run away.

And people wonder why I stay home on New Year's when I live in the Washington, DC, metro area... Mike, you don't like the lead rain? Funny, when the clock struck 12 I was watching Baltimore TV and the neighborhoods there sounded like a firing range. Actually, it isn't only the big cities- part of my neighborhood about a mile from where I currently live has gone bad and some of the pops and cracks I heard from outside didn't sound like firecrackers here either:uhoh:. All that lead has to come down somewhere.

MAKOwner
January 2, 2003, 02:23 AM
Wonder how many antis this incident created? What kind of degenerate POS would start shooting at a freakin party over nothing. Can't believe they didn't hit anything either. Anyone get plate numbers and such on them? They need to be put away.

Kahr carrier
January 2, 2003, 09:03 AM
YIKES:uhoh:

KMKeller
January 2, 2003, 09:39 AM
Glad to see you safe and sound. Welcome to the new casa Carbon.

2dogs
January 2, 2003, 09:53 AM
Sounds pretty scary- good lucky thing no one was killed or injured.

Stay safe.:)

seeker_two
January 2, 2003, 11:28 AM
Glad you weren't hurt or worse...

Gordon
January 2, 2003, 11:36 AM
Well the chaplain could tell you about G-d loving you so he had you NOT carry to an alcohol fueled party and kept anyone from being hurt. That damage to your car should be covered by insurance. The law suit and trouble that would have followed even if you hit bangers would not be fun. All told you had a good experience IMHO. Only on duty LEO should carry around alcohol consumption and I have 300 years of history to back up that statement.:eek:

another okie
January 2, 2003, 11:42 AM
Even if you had been carrying it probably would have been better to take cover unless they started shooting at you personally.

El Rojo
January 2, 2003, 11:50 AM
I think when the bullets wizzed by his head and struck his car, that meant that they were shooting at him!!! :uhoh: Here is how I would look at the situation. No one was hurt. You have seen the elephant. I would see it as a good thing. Try not to worry about it as "Oh my God I could have died! What am I going to do???" Heck, we could have died hundreds of times by the time we hit the mid twenties. Thousands by an older age. God was protecting you and you don't have to go through lawyers, trials, or anything else. If you don't have to shoot, it is a good day.

Now, if I were you, I would carry every where all the time and I certainly could care less about drinking on New Years from this point on. I think I would focus on packing for 2004.

Man that whole situation will boggle the mind won't it? It is always when you don't think you will need a gun, that you need it. Sounds like you did fine Carbon. I wouldn't 2nd guess anything you did. Praise God.

Archer
January 2, 2003, 12:12 PM
Glad it worked out well.

Odd that you had to recover the rounds from your vehicle, you would think the police would have an interest in those as evidence.

krept
January 2, 2003, 01:57 PM
Crazy. Were you in tactical black? ;) Maybe that saved your hide. That's very good that you weren't in the driver's seat.

Things turned out extremely well, considering. Let's say that you did have your CCW. You might have just killed someone or more than one. Sure we would all agree they got what was coming to them but now YOU would be living with the trauma and all that goes along with it.

I'm sure you know if you were carrying the 239 that your first shot would have been DA. Do you practice the DA trigger at those distances?

Welcome back! It doesn't get much closer than that without a hospital visit.

Correia
January 2, 2003, 02:40 PM
Whoa. That sucks. Glad to hear that everything worked out and I hope they catch the dirtbags.

Frohickey
January 2, 2003, 03:05 PM
Well, its good that the only thing to get new holes were your car, and not you. Here's to hoping that the cops find the 3 scumbags. Heres also to hoping that the 3 scumbags do not want to be taken quietly, and without a fight.

Judging by the way I was instictivly reverting back to training, if I had had my Sig, the most likely outcome would have been a quick pair to COM to each of the 3 gunslingers....depending on how fast the other 2 could turn tail when the first one falls.
That would leave you with 2 rounds left in your Sig P239. I would hope that your training would have you reloading with a fresh magazine while the 3 scumbags are turning the ground red.

TarpleyG
January 2, 2003, 03:31 PM
Mike, you don't like the lead rain? Funny, when the clock struck 12 I was watching Baltimore TV and the neighborhoods there sounded like a firing range. Actually, it isn't only the big cities- part of my neighborhood about a mile from where I currently live has gone bad and some of the pops and cracks I heard from outside didn't sound like firecrackers here either. All that lead has to come down somewhere.
Chaim,

I thought no one in MD had a gun... Where are all these BGs getting these guns from??? Gun control would certainly prevent EVERYONE from getting a gun, right?

GT

Carbon_15
January 2, 2003, 03:42 PM
130lb twig....I resemble that remark:D

No 45R, God help 'em if I had been packing one of my Glock 20's stoked with Pro-load 155's....But the divorce claimed 99% of my hardware.

I was pretty suprised that the police didn't show more interest in the bullets. When they found out I had recovered them, they asjed to have them...but I guess they have plenty of evidence without doing a ballistic match. BTW, I just picked the car up 20 min. ago...good as new. I have to give Geico a plug here, they are fast. Quick body repairs is one of the cool thing about Saturns, disposable plastic body panels means no bondo, sanding, painting, and color matching. Just toss it and stick on a new one.

I have always trained to use the sights. Since I practice like that, and have found that you can have speed and aimed fire at the same time, I feel very confident that I could have used my sights under strees. After all I was able to spot the back of my buddys head in the middle of a brawling crowd under stress.

Yes, I do practice DA..ALOT. I practice double taps from concealment with a DA first shot quite alot. BTW, I shoot this particular gun EVERY day. Some days I shoot alot, but atleast once a day (its so nice living in the country with a range in my back yard) I practice drawing from concealment, firing 8 shots- leaving on in the chamber- slaping in a fresh mag and firing 9 more.


Only on duty LEO should carry around alcohol consumption
Thats why I didn't carry. I wasn't planning on getting tanked, and I didn't. But I knew there would be the inevitable drunks there. I weighed the unlikelyness that I would need to shoot with the likelyhood that something not-so-good could happen..say a loose gun around a crowd of drunks...and balanced that with the potential legal headaches of carrying to a party where alcohol was being consumned and decided to leave the firearms at home.

The interesting thing was, about 5 min after the last shot was fired, 6-8 turkey/deer guns emerged from behind truck seats and toolboxes. Thankfully, I only saw sober people with guns. Its a good thing for them they didn't come back to survey the damage. The nice thing about living in the country, and particulary the south...almost everyone can come up with a firearm in a mater of minuets, and is farmiliar with how to handle it safely and effectivly.


Remeber, "You wil not rise to the occasion, you will fall back to your level of training"


Thanks for the well-wishes and kind words,
Jason

Navy joe
January 2, 2003, 05:08 PM
Only on duty LEO should carry around alcohol consumption

Insert situational carry restriction here:______

Nope, couldn't agree less. We can all be blissninnies and make ourselves believe that there are myriad situations where law officers can be trusted with weapons but us proles can't. We can keep believing that until we have no guns. Soon we'll be saying:

"Only sworn LEO can be trusted to have guns around large groups of people in public" "

Imagine all the bad things that could hapen! Bleat!"

From what I've seen the majority of Law Officers do not have the responsibility or firearms skill markets cornered. They are on average strikingly similar to the private citizen in that class. I do not believe in peace officers as a protective class, that's up to us.

It's called personal responsibility, we should all employ more of it before our country goes completely down the tubes.

eXe
January 2, 2003, 07:21 PM
Yikes.. Glad your ok. Cool pics of the rounds.

And people wonder why I dont go to parties anymore :what:

Frohickey
January 2, 2003, 09:10 PM
I've seen a 15 year veteran of a major metropolitan police department shoot a 9mm hole into a soda vending machine.

I wonder if he read the thing its Miranda rights. :p

Dennis Olson
January 2, 2003, 09:19 PM
Remember one thing: Had you shot the "homies", their buds woulda paid you a serious 2 am visit...

Lennyjoe
January 2, 2003, 09:40 PM
Carbon, Good to see you survived that shooting

Also good to see them knuckleheads didnt know how to accurately shoot them 9's. Lot of people could of gotten hurt.

Thought you guys might find this interesting. The one on the right was dug out of my passenger side seat (probly the one that went through the window) and the one on the left was found stuck in the firewall (went through the hood, took out some wires and whatzits and stuck base first in the firewall). We cant find the 3rd. They were shooting S&B 115's.

Guess that proves that 9MM can penetrate autoglass and hood/door metal. At least FMJ anyway. ;)

stray1
January 2, 2003, 10:09 PM
Really nice story. Good detail and discription. I'd like to see pics of the car. That would be really cool:cool: . The pics of the rounds were cool too! I'm sure the cops had plenty of others to choose from. It was nice of them to let you keep some of the evidence. Anyway, I'm glad you are safe. Those BGs were very lucky you weren't carrying.:D

JPM70535
January 2, 2003, 10:40 PM
I offer my sympathies on the damage to your car. You were probably fortunate you were not carrying when the incident occurred. Although you might well have been justified in returning fire, and if your skill level and a little luck resulted in the end of the BGs, the fact that you had 4 beers would likely have come back to haunt you. If not in a criminal trial, (DRUNK SLAYS X # of LOCAL YOUTHS) then for sure in a civil proceeding. Whether the civil suit hjad merit or not you can bet that some low life Ambulance chaser would take the case.

I probably would have been armed, but with the odds stacked in the BGs favor, don't think I would have taken action unless I came under direct attack.

Having said that, I wasn't there and I don't know what you saw.

Carbon_15
January 2, 2003, 11:26 PM
JPM, I agree, and thats why I didn't carry..I had a very similar headline ringing in the back of my head as I decided not to "roll heavy". To clarify the drinking bit, I had a few drinks when I first got there, but was stone cold sober when the shooting started. At no point during the evening did I get drunk, or even close. I was planing on driving home at some point....and I don't even drive with a slight buzz.
IMO the fire was about as direct as I ever want to experiance. No, I don't think they wanted to shoot me particularly any more than anyone else there, but my body on the ground would have made them just as happy as anyone elses. Just because they were shooting at everyone dosn't mean they weren't shooting at me too. Just because you aren't the ONLY target, dosn't mean you aren't a target. Besides, I was closer to them than anyone else after about the first 3 rounds.

Dennis, you have a good point, but the deep south party crasher thugs aren't as hardcore as the inner city gangsters. They would probly rant and rave about sending some sucker to his grave as John Doe for poping 3 of their hommies...but I really doubt they would actualy want to have anything to do with someone who dispatched 3 armed thugs (without holding the gun sideways:rolleyes: ) while under fire and isn't on their side. As with anywhere, these kind of punks are simply cowards who only prey on those they think are weak and defensless. They avoid those who can fight back with equal or greater skill.

Guess that proves that 9MM can penetrate autoglass and hood/door metal
Metal?? Its a Saturn ;)
Seriously though, the one that hit the hood did penetrate sheetmetal and some other metal items under the hood before stoping...and it hit the hood at a pretty shallow angle. I was going to take some pics of the car...but I had no idea it would be fixed so fast! The cops took a few, I'm going to beg and plead for copies.

I apreciate the comments and the other outlooks/opinions.
Jason

Jim Diver
January 3, 2003, 12:40 AM
Glad yer in one piece.....

When I opened the window at 12:00, it sounded like Private Ryan outside.

A co-worker's car is now sporting a nice hole in the roof....


Next year I have reservations at the local underground parking lot.

Glock Glockler
January 3, 2003, 12:32 PM
Carbon_15,

Long time no see, Glad you're alright (from the New Years Eve party) and hope you're alright from your divorce.

Good to have you back

Hang in there
GG

Carbon_15
January 3, 2003, 04:11 PM
<--- is still hangin...for now.

Thanks,
Jason

Penman
January 3, 2003, 06:22 PM
Good to hear from you, Jason. Stay Safer for the New Year!

sasnofear
January 3, 2003, 06:41 PM
irish humour here but...hahahah, thats a very funny story. its the RULES. you carry something 99% time & the one time u dont u need it, like if u always carry knife. one day u forget & u really need it.

on the plus side if you did have it u may of been tempted to use it and land your self if court

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