MinScout
September 11, 2005, 01:36 AM
I handled an Enfield #5 Jungle Carbine at a gunshow today. What a handy, ergonomic little rifle! Do any of you own this gun? How do you think it rates as possible shtf tool? Thanks.
Jungle Carbine For A SHTF weapon?
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RON in PA
September 11, 2005, 02:58 AM
The gun kicks like a mule due to light weight coupled with a butt that was conceived by some officer who hated the"other ranks" as the British say. The full sized #4 rifle is much better.
meef
September 11, 2005, 03:49 AM
You might consider the Ishapore conversions that were made to look like the original jungle carbine. I've got two of them and they're a real hoot to shoot!
What's not to like? They're .308, hold 12 rounds, can be loaded from stripper clips and with a nifty Pachmayr slip-on recoil pad, it's almost a pussycat to shoot. Accuracy is decent - at least minute-of-shtf. They can be had for a reasonable price ($150 - $250) and eat (relatively) cheap surplus ammo all day long. Cost WAY less to feed than the .303 versions.
Try it - you'll like it... :D
What's not to like? They're .308, hold 12 rounds, can be loaded from stripper clips and with a nifty Pachmayr slip-on recoil pad, it's almost a pussycat to shoot. Accuracy is decent - at least minute-of-shtf. They can be had for a reasonable price ($150 - $250) and eat (relatively) cheap surplus ammo all day long. Cost WAY less to feed than the .303 versions.
Try it - you'll like it... :D
pete f
September 11, 2005, 04:10 AM
the jungle carbine is wonderful as far as a WWII carry piece. but really there are lot better options. first of all. 303 is getting scarce in the gun shops. Second, it uses heavy ammuntion and more likely as not you will never run accross another person carrying one or owning one to get ammo from. Third. the gun as noted is loud, kicks hard, and has a big muzzle flash. In a modern world. 762 39 is much more likely to be present. so is 308 and 223. I would limit my choice to that list
The SKS is a modern day version of that jungle carbine. Light, easy to carry, carries ten rounds in a clip, easy to load and accurate to about 250 yards, about the same max reasonable accuracy of the jungle carbine. sure a 303 brit has a bit more umph than a 7.62 x 39 but out of the short barrel a lot (not all but the ballistics are a lot closer than people realize.) of the difference is lost.
I just think the advantages of the SKS are more likely to win out in an unbiases comparason.
The SKS is a modern day version of that jungle carbine. Light, easy to carry, carries ten rounds in a clip, easy to load and accurate to about 250 yards, about the same max reasonable accuracy of the jungle carbine. sure a 303 brit has a bit more umph than a 7.62 x 39 but out of the short barrel a lot (not all but the ballistics are a lot closer than people realize.) of the difference is lost.
I just think the advantages of the SKS are more likely to win out in an unbiases comparason.
dasmi
September 11, 2005, 04:18 AM
Right now my SHTF gun is my Mosin-Nagant m44, until I can find a decent SKS. I'm pretty quick with the bolt, I just need to find some good stripper clips.
rbernie
September 11, 2005, 10:23 AM
Feh on the naysayers - it's a mighty fine SHTF rifle. :p
It's light, has excellent sights, shoots a full size round (evidently some see this as a negative, some as a positive), carries ten rounds, can arguably be worked faster than any other bolt action made, and has an indestructible quality that few rifles can match.
No other rifle, for example, would have likely dealt with the water and mud of the Gulf Coast disaster as well as the Enfield - you'll not likely EVER clog the Enfield action with mud. The rear locking lugs make the action inherently easy to clean of debris and muck - can't say that for any of the forward locking lug crowd. WildAlaska/Ken did a thread on this a couple of years ago, challenging ANYONE to provide an example of a more abuse-tolerant rifle. I can't recall seeing any real contenders to the crown.
The 303 British round is still factory loaded by Remington, Federal, Winchester, PMC, and many others. The South African-made PMP ammo is first class stuff, and at $8/box of twenty 180gr. JSP it's about as cheap as you can get outside of MilSurpLand. It's not like a SHTF scenario would require more 303 Brirish ammo than a single person could reasonably purchase and have handy....
Now, in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario the 303 round loses a bit of luster (due to the fact that it'll not be *as* available as 308 or 223 or 30-06) and a chopped Ishapore 1A/2A Enfield in 308 might get the nod. Having multiple examples of both, I can tell you that the Ishy's are not in the same class as the No4/No5 with regard to sights and workmanship - I would default to the No4/No5 in a SHTF situation and grab the Ishy only if I didn't see any prospect for life returning to normal any time soon.
It's light, has excellent sights, shoots a full size round (evidently some see this as a negative, some as a positive), carries ten rounds, can arguably be worked faster than any other bolt action made, and has an indestructible quality that few rifles can match.
No other rifle, for example, would have likely dealt with the water and mud of the Gulf Coast disaster as well as the Enfield - you'll not likely EVER clog the Enfield action with mud. The rear locking lugs make the action inherently easy to clean of debris and muck - can't say that for any of the forward locking lug crowd. WildAlaska/Ken did a thread on this a couple of years ago, challenging ANYONE to provide an example of a more abuse-tolerant rifle. I can't recall seeing any real contenders to the crown.
The 303 British round is still factory loaded by Remington, Federal, Winchester, PMC, and many others. The South African-made PMP ammo is first class stuff, and at $8/box of twenty 180gr. JSP it's about as cheap as you can get outside of MilSurpLand. It's not like a SHTF scenario would require more 303 Brirish ammo than a single person could reasonably purchase and have handy....
Now, in a true TEOTWAWKI scenario the 303 round loses a bit of luster (due to the fact that it'll not be *as* available as 308 or 223 or 30-06) and a chopped Ishapore 1A/2A Enfield in 308 might get the nod. Having multiple examples of both, I can tell you that the Ishy's are not in the same class as the No4/No5 with regard to sights and workmanship - I would default to the No4/No5 in a SHTF situation and grab the Ishy only if I didn't see any prospect for life returning to normal any time soon.
armoredman
September 11, 2005, 11:07 AM
dasmi, I am with you - my Mosin M38 is what I have until I get another SKS for myself. The wife has the Yugo, as she cannot handle the Mosins.
Stripper for the Mosin are the only thing a PITA to find - get the copper ones, or steel with the Izzy mark on them, as the repros do NOT work.
Stripper for the Mosin are the only thing a PITA to find - get the copper ones, or steel with the Izzy mark on them, as the repros do NOT work.
KaceCoyote
September 11, 2005, 11:18 AM
How about a Lee enfield that takes AK magazines?
How about a Lee enfield that takes M14 magazines?
Oh wait, you can buy those for about 4-500 bucks right here! I -neeed- about five of these (http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/m10rifles.htm)
How about a Lee enfield that takes M14 magazines?
Oh wait, you can buy those for about 4-500 bucks right here! I -neeed- about five of these (http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/m10rifles.htm)
Skofnung
September 11, 2005, 12:41 PM
If it's a "real" JC, and has the cuts in the reciever to lighten it, it may well have the dreaded "wandering zero" problem. If it is a cut down No4, it should be OK.
Without a doubt, the hardest kicking rifle I have ever fired was a real JC. I've shot .300Superboomers that had less felt recoil than that little bastard. I never thought a lowly .303 could kick that hard.
The point about .303 getting hard to find is a valid one. I have 4 rifles in this caliber, and they don't get as much "love" as they deserve due to scarce milsurp (read:cheap)ammo.
All that said, any Enfield in good shape would be a good choice, provided a steady or large supply of ammo. A real JC would be my third to last choice out of all guns chambered in .303, followed by the Ross rifle and a Lee Medford.
Without a doubt, the hardest kicking rifle I have ever fired was a real JC. I've shot .300Superboomers that had less felt recoil than that little bastard. I never thought a lowly .303 could kick that hard.
The point about .303 getting hard to find is a valid one. I have 4 rifles in this caliber, and they don't get as much "love" as they deserve due to scarce milsurp (read:cheap)ammo.
All that said, any Enfield in good shape would be a good choice, provided a steady or large supply of ammo. A real JC would be my third to last choice out of all guns chambered in .303, followed by the Ross rifle and a Lee Medford.
DMK
September 11, 2005, 01:45 PM
it may well have the dreaded "wandering zero" problem. I suspect the whole "wandering zero" thing is due more to shooter flinch than any design problem with the rifle. ;)
Cpl Punishment
September 11, 2005, 02:56 PM
Depends on what you want to do during the apocalypse.
Do you want to be a warrior king, selling his services to the highest bidder and face the forces of evil in choreographed firefights? Then you're screwed with the JC (or really any bolt action).
If you want you and yours to survive, to use the rifle to gain food and occasionally fight off those who would rather steal than cooperate? Then you're good to go.
The ammo problem really isn't a problem. You can buy good ammo now (most of the remaining milsurp isn't very good and I'd avoid it), or you can load it (a $14 Lee Loader is enough) yourself. Come the end of the world, ammo supply isn't going to be as much of a problem as people make it out. If you have to "harvest" ammo, then the weapon will be lying next to it. Availability in guns shops makes no difference, as they won't be open at the end of the world.
Do you want to be a warrior king, selling his services to the highest bidder and face the forces of evil in choreographed firefights? Then you're screwed with the JC (or really any bolt action).
If you want you and yours to survive, to use the rifle to gain food and occasionally fight off those who would rather steal than cooperate? Then you're good to go.
The ammo problem really isn't a problem. You can buy good ammo now (most of the remaining milsurp isn't very good and I'd avoid it), or you can load it (a $14 Lee Loader is enough) yourself. Come the end of the world, ammo supply isn't going to be as much of a problem as people make it out. If you have to "harvest" ammo, then the weapon will be lying next to it. Availability in guns shops makes no difference, as they won't be open at the end of the world.
Dave Markowitz
September 11, 2005, 04:09 PM
A No.5 would make a fine SHTF rifle, but if you plan on practicing much with it, replace the buttstock either with a No.4 stock or replace all the furniture with modern plastic stuff. You may have noticed that the No.5's recoil pad is smaller in outer dimensions than the rest of the butt. It acts as a recoil enhancer.
The person responsible for designing the recoil pad on the No.5 needs to be dug up and keelhauled.
The person responsible for designing the recoil pad on the No.5 needs to be dug up and keelhauled.
444
September 11, 2005, 04:22 PM
The No.5 would make an excellent SHTF rifle.
Don't screw it up by drilling/cutting/changing out parts. The carbine, just as it sits has been through real SHTF senarios way beyond anything you are likely to encounter and came out smelling like a rose. Forget the armchair commando crap: the No. 5 has been there, done that, and doesn't need some shade tree gunsmith making it "tactical". :scrutiny:
I also don't buy into the wandering zero thing or the recoil thing. I actually own a jungle carbine. Last month I shot it in a match that had a trophy for the best score with a jungle carbine. Everyone that shot one, shot a score that was right there with anyone else at the match regardless of what they were shooting. One of my best shooting buddies is a British citizens and primarily shoots British weapons: FAL, Enfields, Sten SMG, etc. I have seen him compete in matches out to 800 yards with a jungle carbine and he shot a respectable score. I have spotted for him in a silhouette match where he shot a jungle carbine and he took second place in the match.
They are fine rifles and would suit your needs very well.
Don't screw it up by drilling/cutting/changing out parts. The carbine, just as it sits has been through real SHTF senarios way beyond anything you are likely to encounter and came out smelling like a rose. Forget the armchair commando crap: the No. 5 has been there, done that, and doesn't need some shade tree gunsmith making it "tactical". :scrutiny:
I also don't buy into the wandering zero thing or the recoil thing. I actually own a jungle carbine. Last month I shot it in a match that had a trophy for the best score with a jungle carbine. Everyone that shot one, shot a score that was right there with anyone else at the match regardless of what they were shooting. One of my best shooting buddies is a British citizens and primarily shoots British weapons: FAL, Enfields, Sten SMG, etc. I have seen him compete in matches out to 800 yards with a jungle carbine and he shot a respectable score. I have spotted for him in a silhouette match where he shot a jungle carbine and he took second place in the match.
They are fine rifles and would suit your needs very well.
rbernie
September 11, 2005, 04:34 PM
The SKS is a modern day version of that jungle carbine. I've got three SKSs and four Enfields - love 'em all.
Light, easy to carry, carries ten rounds in a clip, easy to load True of both; a Yugo SKS will weigh in about the same as a stock No4Mk1 and my Norinco is about the same weight as my chopped No4Mk1.
and accurate to about 250 yards, about the same max reasonable accuracy of the jungle carbine.This is where ya lost me. I'm sorry - I shoot and handload for both, and it is unlikely that you can convince me that you can shoot a SKS with factory iron sights as accurately at 250 yards as you could shoot a No4/No5 Enfield.
sure a 303 brit has a bit more umph than a 7.62 x 39 but out of the short barrel a lot (not all but the ballistics are a lot closer than people realize.) of the difference is lost. A 125gr Sierra ProHunter sitting on a max load of AA1680 or H4198 will step out of my Norinco SKS barrel at between 2375fps-2450fps. That same bullet, loaded into a 303 British case with a reasonable load of H322 or H4895 under it, will move out of a 20" Enfield barrel at between 2900fps-2950fps. The 7.62x39 round on its best day will have about 875 ft/lbs of energy left at 250 yards, whereas the 303R round loaded with the same bullet will have over 2200 ft/lbs of energy, will have gotten there a tenth of a second faster, and (presuming a 100 yard zero for both) will hit five inches closer to POA in windage and drifted over two inches less in a 10mph crosswind than that same bullet in 7.62x39.
The 303R is a full power cartridge, and the 7.62x39 is by definition an intermediate round. Both have their place - I hunt with both- but they are NOT peers. To suggest otherwise is, well, just not true.
Light, easy to carry, carries ten rounds in a clip, easy to load True of both; a Yugo SKS will weigh in about the same as a stock No4Mk1 and my Norinco is about the same weight as my chopped No4Mk1.
and accurate to about 250 yards, about the same max reasonable accuracy of the jungle carbine.This is where ya lost me. I'm sorry - I shoot and handload for both, and it is unlikely that you can convince me that you can shoot a SKS with factory iron sights as accurately at 250 yards as you could shoot a No4/No5 Enfield.
sure a 303 brit has a bit more umph than a 7.62 x 39 but out of the short barrel a lot (not all but the ballistics are a lot closer than people realize.) of the difference is lost. A 125gr Sierra ProHunter sitting on a max load of AA1680 or H4198 will step out of my Norinco SKS barrel at between 2375fps-2450fps. That same bullet, loaded into a 303 British case with a reasonable load of H322 or H4895 under it, will move out of a 20" Enfield barrel at between 2900fps-2950fps. The 7.62x39 round on its best day will have about 875 ft/lbs of energy left at 250 yards, whereas the 303R round loaded with the same bullet will have over 2200 ft/lbs of energy, will have gotten there a tenth of a second faster, and (presuming a 100 yard zero for both) will hit five inches closer to POA in windage and drifted over two inches less in a 10mph crosswind than that same bullet in 7.62x39.
The 303R is a full power cartridge, and the 7.62x39 is by definition an intermediate round. Both have their place - I hunt with both- but they are NOT peers. To suggest otherwise is, well, just not true.
Dave Markowitz
September 11, 2005, 07:20 PM
I also don't buy into the wandering zero thing or the recoil thing.
I agree with on WRT to the wandering zero, but remember, recoil is subjective. IMO, and that of many others with real experience with No.5s (including RON in PA, who posted above), the recoil is vicious. I have one, and I find the recoil a lot more objectionable than even a cut-down No.1 Mk.III* SMLE with the original brass buttplate.
YMMV.
I agree with on WRT to the wandering zero, but remember, recoil is subjective. IMO, and that of many others with real experience with No.5s (including RON in PA, who posted above), the recoil is vicious. I have one, and I find the recoil a lot more objectionable than even a cut-down No.1 Mk.III* SMLE with the original brass buttplate.
YMMV.
444
September 11, 2005, 08:08 PM
:what:
swingset
September 12, 2005, 01:34 AM
In my dreams, someone will be able to mention the No5mkI without bringing up the mostly ficticious "wandering zero" story, or crying because of the brutal recoil.
The wandering zero was a problem that the army higher ups exaggerated at the manufacturing level to hasten the MOD's dropping of the No5 action, and to speed up the adoption of a new autoloader (to become the L1A1). There were No5's with wandering zero, but it wasn't a systemic problem. The No1 was much worse about holding zero (due to bedding and fit issues), yet you NEVER hear anyone say it about them. It's always the No5.
The recoil is more stout than a No4, but no duh. It's not like ANY Enfield is a mule. Shoot a shotty with 3" 00 buckshot and tell me that it's not a kicker. What about an M38 or a Berthier Carbine? Or an 03A3 with an S stock. Those guns are pounders.
Anyway....the No5 is a wonderful little gun. I might not choose it for SHTF but with one I wouldn't feel like I had a lemon on my hands.
The wandering zero was a problem that the army higher ups exaggerated at the manufacturing level to hasten the MOD's dropping of the No5 action, and to speed up the adoption of a new autoloader (to become the L1A1). There were No5's with wandering zero, but it wasn't a systemic problem. The No1 was much worse about holding zero (due to bedding and fit issues), yet you NEVER hear anyone say it about them. It's always the No5.
The recoil is more stout than a No4, but no duh. It's not like ANY Enfield is a mule. Shoot a shotty with 3" 00 buckshot and tell me that it's not a kicker. What about an M38 or a Berthier Carbine? Or an 03A3 with an S stock. Those guns are pounders.
Anyway....the No5 is a wonderful little gun. I might not choose it for SHTF but with one I wouldn't feel like I had a lemon on my hands.
Dr.Rob
September 12, 2005, 02:05 AM
I thought the junglecarbine kicked pretty hard as a kid... but that was compared to my 30-30.
Practice makes a lot of difference.
Practice makes a lot of difference.
Cpl Punishment
September 12, 2005, 06:26 AM
The recoil is more stout than a No4, but no duh. It's not like ANY Enfield is a mule. Shoot a shotty with 3" 00 buckshot and tell me that it's not a kicker. What about an M38 or a Berthier Carbine? Or an 03A3 with an S stock. Those guns are pounders.
I thionk people are too spoiled by shooting those "lightweight, handy" aluminum rifles that weight 9+ pounds (due to all the crap hanging off them) and shooting fast .22s. Apparently, anything from which you can feel any recoil is a mule kicker. Not to mention the .303 is more along the lines of the .30-40 Krag in recoil, not even as powerful as a .308. Yet grown men cry over it.
Before you ask, yes, I've fired the JC, as well as the Mosin carbines (actually even own a few), and I'm convinced the very prominent muzzle blast is what convinces people that they are hard kickers, not the actual recoil.
I thionk people are too spoiled by shooting those "lightweight, handy" aluminum rifles that weight 9+ pounds (due to all the crap hanging off them) and shooting fast .22s. Apparently, anything from which you can feel any recoil is a mule kicker. Not to mention the .303 is more along the lines of the .30-40 Krag in recoil, not even as powerful as a .308. Yet grown men cry over it.
Before you ask, yes, I've fired the JC, as well as the Mosin carbines (actually even own a few), and I'm convinced the very prominent muzzle blast is what convinces people that they are hard kickers, not the actual recoil.
varoadking
September 12, 2005, 07:04 AM
I've one of the Gibb's .308 JC's and the sights are terrible, the rifle does indeed kick like a mule, and if someone were interested, I'd gladly sell the damned thing.
JShirley
September 12, 2005, 09:17 AM
challenging ANYONE to provide an example of a more abuse-tolerant rifle. I can't recall seeing any real contenders to the crown.
I think I can name one (two, but one is really an adaptation of the other): the Pattern 14 and the US Model of 1917. Use the WWII US Ordnance improved ejector spring, and I am fully convinced that the 1917 will take a pounding that would leave a #5 a pile of useless parts.
John
I think I can name one (two, but one is really an adaptation of the other): the Pattern 14 and the US Model of 1917. Use the WWII US Ordnance improved ejector spring, and I am fully convinced that the 1917 will take a pounding that would leave a #5 a pile of useless parts.
John
Gewehr98
September 12, 2005, 11:36 AM
I have 123gr, 150gr, and 180gr ammo ready for it, it carries and handles well, has excellent sights, and the recoil is no worse than a Spanish FR-8 or M44 Mosin-Nagant carbine.
I agree, the "wandering zero" bit sounds more like urban legend than a real problem with the gun. My rifle had a loose king screw, so the beding was poor at best. A little Loc-Tite fixed that. I have no problems keeping groups centered, nor does the point of impact drift between firing sessions. I just wish I had bought more than one of the little guys when they were being imported for $250 a couple years ago.
http://mauser98.com/jc-3.jpg
I agree, the "wandering zero" bit sounds more like urban legend than a real problem with the gun. My rifle had a loose king screw, so the beding was poor at best. A little Loc-Tite fixed that. I have no problems keeping groups centered, nor does the point of impact drift between firing sessions. I just wish I had bought more than one of the little guys when they were being imported for $250 a couple years ago.
http://mauser98.com/jc-3.jpg
rbernie
September 12, 2005, 12:56 PM
I think I can name one (two, but one is really an adaptation of the other): the Pattern 14 and the US Model of 1917. Use the WWII US Ordnance improved ejector spring, and I am fully convinced that the 1917 will take a pounding that would leave a #5 a pile of useless parts. IMO - yes and no. The P14/1917 Enfield is probably one of the strongest actions ever made. It's a HOSS. It's my third-favorite action of all time (behind the Lee Enfield and the small-ring Mauser), and it'd be second on the list if it weren't so blamed heavy.
But it suffers, if that's the word, from the same design issue as does all other Mauser copies - the lack of easy access to the locking lug recesses. It doesn't take much mud or ice to tie up these actions once it gets into the locking lug recesses, since there's no ready means by which to remove it. Compare that to the Enfield action with its rear locking lugs - there is NO WAY that you can't, with nothing more sophisticated than your bare hands, clean that action of ice and mud enough such that it'll lock and fire. And *that* makes it a better SHTF rifle, in my eyes.
If the litmus test for 'abuse' is pure action strength - the P14/1917 wins. If the test is the ability to keep firing under virtually any conditions - the Lee Enfield derivitives win.
But it suffers, if that's the word, from the same design issue as does all other Mauser copies - the lack of easy access to the locking lug recesses. It doesn't take much mud or ice to tie up these actions once it gets into the locking lug recesses, since there's no ready means by which to remove it. Compare that to the Enfield action with its rear locking lugs - there is NO WAY that you can't, with nothing more sophisticated than your bare hands, clean that action of ice and mud enough such that it'll lock and fire. And *that* makes it a better SHTF rifle, in my eyes.
If the litmus test for 'abuse' is pure action strength - the P14/1917 wins. If the test is the ability to keep firing under virtually any conditions - the Lee Enfield derivitives win.
Burt Blade
September 12, 2005, 08:44 PM
Does it go boom?
(any bullet can kill if well placed.)
Every time you pull the trigger?
(unreliable guns are more dangerous to the shooter.)
More then once without reloading?
(Goblins often have a buddy, and surprised people often miss.)
With a deliberate shot, can you hit a man at 100 yards with it?
(If the goblin or potenital meal is further than that, move.)
Can you accumulate and carry 200 rounds for it?
(200 rounds will get you through quite a bit.)
Then it is a very serviceable SHTF gun.
(any bullet can kill if well placed.)
Every time you pull the trigger?
(unreliable guns are more dangerous to the shooter.)
More then once without reloading?
(Goblins often have a buddy, and surprised people often miss.)
With a deliberate shot, can you hit a man at 100 yards with it?
(If the goblin or potenital meal is further than that, move.)
Can you accumulate and carry 200 rounds for it?
(200 rounds will get you through quite a bit.)
Then it is a very serviceable SHTF gun.
1911user
September 13, 2005, 12:13 AM
I know an older fellow with 2 jungle carbines. He said they kick so bad it'll have to be SHTF before he considers shooting them again :D
SMLE
September 13, 2005, 12:28 AM
While the SMLE took 22 years to refine, it went on to serve 60 years in frontline service. The Mauser took 37 years to 'refine' and was being traded off to 2nd line units and cut up for scrap after barely 47 years active service. LEs are filling coffins and hospital beds around the world even to this day.
I have put 200 rounds in one session through a JC and had no problems with the recoil, nor did I notice any "wandering zero". The JC is accurate enough to bust clay birds on a fence rail at 200 yards with boring regularity. Commercial 303 is readily available, as is new brass and a wide variety of .312" bullets.
Someone already posted a link to the new manufacture #5 in 7.62x39 or 308.
Switching out the original wood for a synthetic stock won't hurt if you don't do any chopping or drilling on the metal. If you want a "Bubba'd" JC, shop around for one that's already been desecrated and leave your original one alone.
I have put 200 rounds in one session through a JC and had no problems with the recoil, nor did I notice any "wandering zero". The JC is accurate enough to bust clay birds on a fence rail at 200 yards with boring regularity. Commercial 303 is readily available, as is new brass and a wide variety of .312" bullets.
Someone already posted a link to the new manufacture #5 in 7.62x39 or 308.
Switching out the original wood for a synthetic stock won't hurt if you don't do any chopping or drilling on the metal. If you want a "Bubba'd" JC, shop around for one that's already been desecrated and leave your original one alone.
Colt46
September 13, 2005, 10:50 AM
An actual Jungle Carbine would be quite a collectors item. Recoil is stiff and there is that wandering zero factor. Some have it some don't. Availiability of .303 during times of crisis might be a factor. I'd say go .308.
The enfield action is fast.
The enfield action is fast.
Gewehr98
September 16, 2005, 04:11 PM
An actual Jungle Carbine would be quite a collectors item.
The prices on authentic No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines came way down just a few years ago when oodles of them were found and imported from Malaysian law enforcement inventories. That's where the BSA Shirley specimen I posted above came from, very original and also sans "wandering zero". ;)
The prices on authentic No5Mk1 Jungle Carbines came way down just a few years ago when oodles of them were found and imported from Malaysian law enforcement inventories. That's where the BSA Shirley specimen I posted above came from, very original and also sans "wandering zero". ;)
Mauserguy
September 17, 2005, 12:39 PM
"How do you think it rates as possible shtf tool?"
The Jungle Carbine was built for use in the jungles of the south pacific during WWII. Global warfare is the biggest SHTF scenario you can possibly come up with. The Jungle Carbine is a proven SHTF weapon.
Mauserguy
The Jungle Carbine was built for use in the jungles of the south pacific during WWII. Global warfare is the biggest SHTF scenario you can possibly come up with. The Jungle Carbine is a proven SHTF weapon.
Mauserguy
Malamute
September 17, 2005, 03:13 PM
A lower cost alternative is a No4 cut down to similar size. I have one with a 19" barrel, rear band moved back 2", and handguards cut down similar to the JC. I used a P-14 front sight assy. It is just a tiny bit tall, making it simple to file to sight in. Haven't put it on paper yet, but it looks like as is it hits about right on POA at 100 yards, so needs to be brought up for the battle setting and long range markings to apply.
While lighter and shorter than the regulart size Lee Enfields, the balance point is changed, making the shorter guns more awkward to carry in hand. For in and out of a vehicle the short ones are nice, but if I was going to carry one very much, I'd prefer the No1 MKIII.
While lighter and shorter than the regulart size Lee Enfields, the balance point is changed, making the shorter guns more awkward to carry in hand. For in and out of a vehicle the short ones are nice, but if I was going to carry one very much, I'd prefer the No1 MKIII.
DougW
September 17, 2005, 05:31 PM
I shoot my #5mk1 Fazakerly in Vintage Matches. Recoil is no worse than any of my #4's, since I load a reduced load for the 7.7X56R (.303). It would be one of the weapons that I would grab as a SHTF rifle. High capicity, accurate, able to engage targets out to 800 yards, light and tough. Meets all my needs. But, it is not my first choice for a SHTF weapon. It will go with me though.
telomerase
September 17, 2005, 05:33 PM
Just don't run into more than one zombie at a time... Mr. Garand gave this matter some thought.
wayne in boca
September 18, 2005, 08:16 AM
I've had a No. 5 for 35 years,bought it for $50.00 as a deer rifle when I was 18 years old,and I have never noticed that it had either a "wandering zero" or a tremendous recoil.Gee,it's a rifle,not a BB gun,it's supposed to kick.Always liked it,never modified it in any way (not because I was a purist collector at that point,but because it doesn't need it,it's perfect already as a woods rifle)and I have probably shot 25 deer and hogs with it.Just found out it was a collectors item about five years ago,now I just look at it and shine it.Has no import marks and an original bayonet.I tell you one thing.You wouldn't want to try going into the bush after me if I had it with me.Knocks down whatever is in front of it.
BruceB
September 18, 2005, 09:06 AM
I have great affection for the #5 Rifle, as it was what I had in my hands in the closest shooting scrape of my 62 years.
I was trained in the use of the #4 Rifle (much the same as the #5 in most respects except length) in the Canadian Army, and if I do say so myself, I can REALLY run a Lee Enfield in a hurry...and that was a good thing, as it turned out.
I was faced with an oncoming black bear on the steps of an exploration shack many miles from any civilization in the Northwest Territories of Canada. My first shot at this bear was fired when he was about two feet off the muzzle, and almost stopped him. The second shot DID stop him, but he was still on his feet. The third shot turned him sideways, still standing, and the fourth put him down, a measured four feet from my toes. Elapsed time...difficult to say, but my partner said it was like a machinegun. Maybe a couple of seconds. I will GUARANTEE there were more than two empty cases in mid-air at one time. Then, it seemed that my knees wouldn't hold me up any longer and I had to sit down....
Any one of those rounds would have been fatal, but I was in no mood to wait around for results!
Recoil in the JC is easily addressed with a simple slip-on recoil pad. Muzzle blast is very loud, and will have to be lived with if there's no time to get your muffs. Some practice with the .303 5-round chargers will allow rapid reloads, and rattle-free carry of ammo. (Make SURE you know how to load the chargers correctly, because there is a definite "right" and "wrong" way to do it.)
The ten-round capacity is also a very useful feature in a bad-times rifle. Just ensure that case rims are always loaded ahead of rims in the magazine, and the rifle is very reliable in any climate on the globe..
I was trained in the use of the #4 Rifle (much the same as the #5 in most respects except length) in the Canadian Army, and if I do say so myself, I can REALLY run a Lee Enfield in a hurry...and that was a good thing, as it turned out.
I was faced with an oncoming black bear on the steps of an exploration shack many miles from any civilization in the Northwest Territories of Canada. My first shot at this bear was fired when he was about two feet off the muzzle, and almost stopped him. The second shot DID stop him, but he was still on his feet. The third shot turned him sideways, still standing, and the fourth put him down, a measured four feet from my toes. Elapsed time...difficult to say, but my partner said it was like a machinegun. Maybe a couple of seconds. I will GUARANTEE there were more than two empty cases in mid-air at one time. Then, it seemed that my knees wouldn't hold me up any longer and I had to sit down....
Any one of those rounds would have been fatal, but I was in no mood to wait around for results!
Recoil in the JC is easily addressed with a simple slip-on recoil pad. Muzzle blast is very loud, and will have to be lived with if there's no time to get your muffs. Some practice with the .303 5-round chargers will allow rapid reloads, and rattle-free carry of ammo. (Make SURE you know how to load the chargers correctly, because there is a definite "right" and "wrong" way to do it.)
The ten-round capacity is also a very useful feature in a bad-times rifle. Just ensure that case rims are always loaded ahead of rims in the magazine, and the rifle is very reliable in any climate on the globe..
DougW
September 18, 2005, 12:01 PM
In shooting my #5 or one of the #4's in a match, I am consistantly finishing my 10 rounds (5 loaded to start, reloading with 5) with an average time of 48 seconds, in an 80 second time limit. (The bad part about this is that I am shooting against mostly 1903 Springfields, and I am handicapped with only being able to load 5 rounds at a time. I am sorry that their rifle in standard configuration only holds 5 rounds, when mine holds 10!) The bolt can be worked very fast without having to raise your head, and, the fact that it cocks on closing. I love em! :D
MinScout
September 18, 2005, 01:31 PM
I'm sure pleased with all the great feedback on this thread. Actually, I did buy an AR15 shtf gun right after the ban ended last year. Thing is, I can't like the darned thing. Can't get my mind around all that polymer and plastic and it just does'nt feel right in my hands. I shot a magazine full out of it earlier this summer and have'nt touched it since. I've been thinking of selling it and buying something I can enjoy shooting and handling like the JC.
Malamute
September 18, 2005, 04:04 PM
I sold my AR's about 15 years ago and don't miss them in the least.
The Sht LE's are much more rifle in my estimation. I consider a rifle to be a tool, and prefer one more suited to the game in my area, as well as handling SD chores.
The Sht LE's are much more rifle in my estimation. I consider a rifle to be a tool, and prefer one more suited to the game in my area, as well as handling SD chores.
bad LT
September 19, 2005, 12:45 AM
Looks like BruceB has already faced a SHTF situation with a Jungle Carbine :eek:
A 30 caliber round in the right place has proven itself many, many times in the past.
A 30 caliber round in the right place has proven itself many, many times in the past.
Gewehr98
September 22, 2005, 12:35 PM
Just don't run into more than one zombie at a time... Mr. Garand gave this matter some thought.
;)
;)
DevLcL
September 22, 2005, 06:09 PM
No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
Whatever you choose shoot the heck out of it as much as possible. Get lots of ammo and put it away. When you go to the range purchase ammo for the trip, don't dip into your cache. Don't fool with fancy and/or expensive accessories.
Just my opinion.
-Dev
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
Whatever you choose shoot the heck out of it as much as possible. Get lots of ammo and put it away. When you go to the range purchase ammo for the trip, don't dip into your cache. Don't fool with fancy and/or expensive accessories.
Just my opinion.
-Dev
Malamute
September 22, 2005, 11:39 PM
"No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
---------------------------
So, are we to go home and hide if our adversaries have "superior firepower"?
From Jeff Coopers Commentaries, Vol 5, No 5,
Remember the axiom that you are only "outgunned" if you miss. Only the old-timers among us remember the deserved adulation heaped upon Butch O'Hare, after whom the Chicago airport is now named. In his magnificent exploit he was the only Navy fighter plane available in the air when nine Japanese Betty's were observed in attack formation heading for the Lexington battle group. These Betty's were twin-engined medium bombers with rifle caliber machineguns forward and sideward, plus a 20mm automatic cannon as a tail stinger. The Nip formation was a V of V's flying very close together and protecting each other with their own guns. O'Hare was flying an F4F-3 armed with four 50-caliber Brownings and packing 200 rounds per gun. In plain sight he tore into that Jap formation and destroyed five bombers before he ran out of ammunition and the fight broke up.
Let our current handwringing journalists observe that he was not "outgunned."
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
---------------------------
So, are we to go home and hide if our adversaries have "superior firepower"?
From Jeff Coopers Commentaries, Vol 5, No 5,
Remember the axiom that you are only "outgunned" if you miss. Only the old-timers among us remember the deserved adulation heaped upon Butch O'Hare, after whom the Chicago airport is now named. In his magnificent exploit he was the only Navy fighter plane available in the air when nine Japanese Betty's were observed in attack formation heading for the Lexington battle group. These Betty's were twin-engined medium bombers with rifle caliber machineguns forward and sideward, plus a 20mm automatic cannon as a tail stinger. The Nip formation was a V of V's flying very close together and protecting each other with their own guns. O'Hare was flying an F4F-3 armed with four 50-caliber Brownings and packing 200 rounds per gun. In plain sight he tore into that Jap formation and destroyed five bombers before he ran out of ammunition and the fight broke up.
Let our current handwringing journalists observe that he was not "outgunned."
SMLE
September 22, 2005, 11:50 PM
A few weeks ago, 2 Albuquerque Police Officers armed with semi-auto handguns and wearing body armor were put in their graves by 1 nut with a WWI Webley revolver. On PAPER the nut was out matched and outgunned by 2 highly trained professionals, but real life don't read the paper specs. A real rifleman with an LE will walk all over a clown with an AK/M4/M16/you name it.
BTW; DevLcL, you obviously haven't heard of charger clips. I can recharge the magazine of my ShtLE as fast, maybe faster, than you can swap mags on an M1 Carbine or mini 30.
BTW; DevLcL, you obviously haven't heard of charger clips. I can recharge the magazine of my ShtLE as fast, maybe faster, than you can swap mags on an M1 Carbine or mini 30.
Malamute
September 23, 2005, 12:29 AM
I personally like having a general purpose rifle on hand, one that I know can cleanly take deer, elk, moose, or whatever short of the big bears, in addition to defensive duties.
The smaller caliber guns don't fit this criteria, and the 308 cal self loaders are heavy and bulky compared to a decent bolt gun. I got tired of dragging around the self loaders, in the off chance I would be rushed by a human wave of Chinese soldiers, or hordes of Canadians invading. If you don't have your gun of choice with you when bad things happen it means little to own it. I hardly ever hear of people getting in big gun battles in their gun room at home any more.The guns I tend to carry around are Winchester carbines and nice bolt guns.
The smaller caliber guns don't fit this criteria, and the 308 cal self loaders are heavy and bulky compared to a decent bolt gun. I got tired of dragging around the self loaders, in the off chance I would be rushed by a human wave of Chinese soldiers, or hordes of Canadians invading. If you don't have your gun of choice with you when bad things happen it means little to own it. I hardly ever hear of people getting in big gun battles in their gun room at home any more.The guns I tend to carry around are Winchester carbines and nice bolt guns.
DevLcL
September 23, 2005, 01:19 AM
I forgot to mention one other thing. ;) Not everyone is Clint Eastwood. I take for example the bear story a few threads ago. He obviously knows his rifle and is quick to the draw. This guy asking if he should buy it, well, that alone says hes not extremely fimiliar with the firearm. He's not gonna be able to do what the bear-slayer did any time soon. Not to say he can't practice and become more then proficient, because he can. I've seen lots of folks totally butcher their gun-savvy act when they pick up one of my rifles and fool with it for a minute like they know what there doing when really they cant figure out how to close the action.
-Dev
-Dev
Pointman
September 23, 2005, 01:25 AM
Gotta love the No5, lots of firepower in a very handy package. My favorite "shooter" No5 is actually a Long Branch No 4 Mk1* that someone cut down and put in an No5 stock. (I think someone made "kits" for this conversion many years ago ). My fau-No5 is 1.5" longer and a good pound or two heavier than my '46 Fazackerly No5. But it shoots well and I don't feel badly beating it up out in the bush and the extra weight sure doesn't hurt.
But if I didn't have this LB fau-No5 I'd just buy another Fazackerly and designate it the shooter (or grab one of my 4 No4's)
Ammo is more since the surplus on the market today is junk though.... find some South African or Greek if you can, avoid the Brit and Candian older than 1960 and anything made in Pakistan.
A No4 or No5 I'd take over a Mosin or Mauser any day.
But if I didn't have this LB fau-No5 I'd just buy another Fazackerly and designate it the shooter (or grab one of my 4 No4's)
Ammo is more since the surplus on the market today is junk though.... find some South African or Greek if you can, avoid the Brit and Candian older than 1960 and anything made in Pakistan.
A No4 or No5 I'd take over a Mosin or Mauser any day.
arizcowboy
September 23, 2005, 01:44 AM
Commercially loaded 303 British ammo is WAY overpriced nowadays and it's hard to find. Unless you reload you're better off using a rifle that uses more common ammo for a SHTF scenario.
scbair
September 23, 2005, 08:58 AM
Clarity can com in a dream . . .
I own an assortment of firearms, including some semiauto rifles, riot guns and "wondernines."
Several years ago, I had a very vivid nightmare; some group (exactly who was not clear) was after me, and I determined to take the fight to the swamp (my native habitat :D ). I was quickly gathering arms I planned to run & hide with, to fight a hit & run action in some of Dixie's meanest terrain.
I very clearly recall passing by some really neat sidearms for a 1913-vintage M1911, in a current-issue military holster, with appropriate belt & mag pouches.
Then, I can still remember the sensation of slipping rounds into the mag of my "out-dated" No. 4 SMLE (1951 Long Branch Arsenal), and grabbing a few boxes of ammo and some stripper clips.
The rifle, handgun, some spare mags & clips, along with canteen, plastic sheeting (for shelter), good belt knife and some other basic survival gear (pack with butane lighter, folding saw, etc.) constituted all I'd be able to transport on my weary ol' back.
After some ADA (After-Dream Analysis), I concluded I had made a good choice in armament. While I couldn't carry hundreds of rounds of ammo for blazing fast mag switches, etc., the chances of my getting to USE that much ammo were slim to none, anyway. My only hope would have been to stay low, pick targets, nail them without "spraying & praying," and crawling off into the undergrowth. One worry that would not have been on my mind was a weapon malfunction. The ol' SMLE (and the ol' 1911, BTW) have not yet let me down!
Yeah, a silly nightmare, I know, but the rationale of a SMLE for that type SHTF still seems valid to me!
I own an assortment of firearms, including some semiauto rifles, riot guns and "wondernines."
Several years ago, I had a very vivid nightmare; some group (exactly who was not clear) was after me, and I determined to take the fight to the swamp (my native habitat :D ). I was quickly gathering arms I planned to run & hide with, to fight a hit & run action in some of Dixie's meanest terrain.
I very clearly recall passing by some really neat sidearms for a 1913-vintage M1911, in a current-issue military holster, with appropriate belt & mag pouches.
Then, I can still remember the sensation of slipping rounds into the mag of my "out-dated" No. 4 SMLE (1951 Long Branch Arsenal), and grabbing a few boxes of ammo and some stripper clips.
The rifle, handgun, some spare mags & clips, along with canteen, plastic sheeting (for shelter), good belt knife and some other basic survival gear (pack with butane lighter, folding saw, etc.) constituted all I'd be able to transport on my weary ol' back.
After some ADA (After-Dream Analysis), I concluded I had made a good choice in armament. While I couldn't carry hundreds of rounds of ammo for blazing fast mag switches, etc., the chances of my getting to USE that much ammo were slim to none, anyway. My only hope would have been to stay low, pick targets, nail them without "spraying & praying," and crawling off into the undergrowth. One worry that would not have been on my mind was a weapon malfunction. The ol' SMLE (and the ol' 1911, BTW) have not yet let me down!
Yeah, a silly nightmare, I know, but the rationale of a SMLE for that type SHTF still seems valid to me!
pwrtool45
September 23, 2005, 09:45 AM
"No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
So, you reckon the 'extra firepower' is going to cause small groups of opponents to just sit around while you start shooting? Military tactics don't scale to the individual. Let's say it takes you .50 sec to engage two targets with solid upper thoratic hits. Now, the average reaction time is .30 sec IIRC. What do you suppose the 3'rd - n'th guy is going to be doing with the remaining .20 sec in which you're otherwise occupied?
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
So, you reckon the 'extra firepower' is going to cause small groups of opponents to just sit around while you start shooting? Military tactics don't scale to the individual. Let's say it takes you .50 sec to engage two targets with solid upper thoratic hits. Now, the average reaction time is .30 sec IIRC. What do you suppose the 3'rd - n'th guy is going to be doing with the remaining .20 sec in which you're otherwise occupied?
Gewehr98
September 23, 2005, 06:51 PM
No way dude. You can't reload quick enough.
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
Yup. Once, when I was playing Counter-Strike online... :scrutiny:
Get an M1 Carbine.
If you like the extra firepower get a Ruger Mini 30 or something but don't get a top feeder for a SHTF gun. Its perfect for sporting or camping/trail type protection. But it's not ideal for protection from humans. At least not now when lots of folks have much more superior firepower, some with you, some against you.
Yup. Once, when I was playing Counter-Strike online... :scrutiny:
Crom
September 23, 2005, 07:47 PM
Jungle Carbine in 7.62X39: http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/m10rifles.htm
I bought a Number 5 Jungle Carbine in .303 for a truck gun about 20 years ago. I handloaded for it and got it to shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Only problem was the groups tended to move around each time I took it to the range.
After a few range sessions I called a gunsmith and told him of the problem He asked me if it was British or Australian manufacture. I said British and he replied that there was a reported "wandering zero" problem with some of the British Jungle Carbine's, but that the Australian Jungle Carbine's reported no problems. Hmmm......... :confused:
I still have the gun but don't shoot it much. I did eventually buy an Enfield #4 and enjoy shooting it much more than the Jungle.
As far as using the No 5 as a SHTF gun, it depends on what else was available. Any rifle is better than no rifle at all, although there are better choices IMO.
I bought a Number 5 Jungle Carbine in .303 for a truck gun about 20 years ago. I handloaded for it and got it to shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Only problem was the groups tended to move around each time I took it to the range.
After a few range sessions I called a gunsmith and told him of the problem He asked me if it was British or Australian manufacture. I said British and he replied that there was a reported "wandering zero" problem with some of the British Jungle Carbine's, but that the Australian Jungle Carbine's reported no problems. Hmmm......... :confused:
I still have the gun but don't shoot it much. I did eventually buy an Enfield #4 and enjoy shooting it much more than the Jungle.
As far as using the No 5 as a SHTF gun, it depends on what else was available. Any rifle is better than no rifle at all, although there are better choices IMO.
Dave Markowitz
September 23, 2005, 09:34 PM
After a few range sessions I called a gunsmith and told him of the problem He asked me if it was British or Australian manufacture. I said British and he replied that there was a reported "wandering zero" problem with some of the British Jungle Carbine's, but that the Australian Jungle Carbine's reported no problems. Hmmm.........
That gunsmith was full of it. The Australians never produced any No.4 or No.5 rifles for military use. They stuck with the No.1 Mk.III SMLE until the 1950s.
That gunsmith was full of it. The Australians never produced any No.4 or No.5 rifles for military use. They stuck with the No.1 Mk.III SMLE until the 1950s.
DougW
September 23, 2005, 11:52 PM
Australia did make a JC version of their #1mkIII as an experiment. There are a few in private hands in Australia. Talk about an expensive collectors piece!
The attached pic is a scan of a target shot at 100 yards with my 8/45 Fazakerly #5mk1. Load is 40gr IMR 4895, 150gr Speer spitzer SP, on sand bags from a bench. Which shot is the "wandering" zero?
The attached pic is a scan of a target shot at 100 yards with my 8/45 Fazakerly #5mk1. Load is 40gr IMR 4895, 150gr Speer spitzer SP, on sand bags from a bench. Which shot is the "wandering" zero?
dacat
September 24, 2005, 02:07 AM
I was considering getting a Gibbs carbine some years ago. The one thing that turned me off, was the lack of of a good setup to mount a scope.
About it's use in a defence situation with several attackers, that could go either way. If you have a bolt gun, you would tend to seek cover faster and aim better, but in some conditions the semi would be better no doubt. Also, with a bolt gun you would likely try to keep more distance between yourself and trouble.
The thing about SHTF deals is they can be anything, which allow different weapons to better than others for the different needs.
About it's use in a defence situation with several attackers, that could go either way. If you have a bolt gun, you would tend to seek cover faster and aim better, but in some conditions the semi would be better no doubt. Also, with a bolt gun you would likely try to keep more distance between yourself and trouble.
The thing about SHTF deals is they can be anything, which allow different weapons to better than others for the different needs.
Malamute
September 24, 2005, 12:01 PM
"I was considering getting a Gibbs carbine some years ago. The one thing that turned me off, was the lack of of a good setup to mount a scope."
I'm thinking of having some bases made to fit the barrel of my cut down No4 to use with a forward mounted scope. This would actually meet scout criteria in most specs, tho I'm not sure about weight. I was going to avoid the "Scout" word for forward mounted scope, the term is WAY overused for guns that do NOT fit any other "Scout" criteria. A scout is NOT any rifle with a forward mounted scope on it, it is a gun that meets a cetain set of length, weight and caliber criteria, a scope is only one element, and the scope is NOT even a required element to be a scout rifle. The JC is about as close to a scout rifle as the factories have ever made until Steyer and others started producing them.
http://pw2.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html
The link above does not specifically address caliber, but scout caliber specs call for a round in the medium power range. The 303 fits neatly in this range.
Coopers later writings regarding rifles called "scouts" that do not meet any criteria other than a forward mounted scope, he notes that a proper scout does not neccesarily need a scope to be a true scout, and a forward mounted scope does not make a gun a "scout rifle".
"scout" rant off.
A bit OT, but some thoughts on the general subject of defensive rifles. The subject has been given much thought. For those that don't read Coopers stuff, but may be interested in that principal of bolt guns as serious defensive tools, there is some good info here, but you'll have to search some through the site.
http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/
I'm thinking of having some bases made to fit the barrel of my cut down No4 to use with a forward mounted scope. This would actually meet scout criteria in most specs, tho I'm not sure about weight. I was going to avoid the "Scout" word for forward mounted scope, the term is WAY overused for guns that do NOT fit any other "Scout" criteria. A scout is NOT any rifle with a forward mounted scope on it, it is a gun that meets a cetain set of length, weight and caliber criteria, a scope is only one element, and the scope is NOT even a required element to be a scout rifle. The JC is about as close to a scout rifle as the factories have ever made until Steyer and others started producing them.
http://pw2.netcom.com/~chingesh/scoutrifle.html
The link above does not specifically address caliber, but scout caliber specs call for a round in the medium power range. The 303 fits neatly in this range.
Coopers later writings regarding rifles called "scouts" that do not meet any criteria other than a forward mounted scope, he notes that a proper scout does not neccesarily need a scope to be a true scout, and a forward mounted scope does not make a gun a "scout rifle".
"scout" rant off.
A bit OT, but some thoughts on the general subject of defensive rifles. The subject has been given much thought. For those that don't read Coopers stuff, but may be interested in that principal of bolt guns as serious defensive tools, there is some good info here, but you'll have to search some through the site.
http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/
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