*sigh* The Wastefulness of War


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Nightcrawler
March 26, 2003, 09:17 PM
http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/144/706/10x7/030322_iraqupdate_02.jpg

Such a waste of perfectly servicable hardware.

Found this pic over at the FAL Files. Comes from MSNBC.

One FAL Files member saw fit to say this, though:

And when this war is over, we will have thousands of well trained gun confiscators coming home.

Don't know exactly what to think of that comment. The thread can be viewed here (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70469).

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CZ-75
March 26, 2003, 09:27 PM
Just because these folks are heroic now, during the war, doesn't mean that they can't let us down some point down the road. Tim McVeigh ring a bell?

Don't you think a high proportion of LEOs, such as BATF agents are veterans? Some guys with military experience probably pulled the trigger at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

I think there was a story circulating, possibly true, likely apocryphal, that they Armed Services were circulating questionaires, during the Klinton admin., asking if the soldier would be willing to confiscate weapons from US civilians if authorized by higher authorities. The possibility exists.

Soap
March 26, 2003, 09:35 PM
OLD NEWS! This is just a clip from the video:

The American Gunsmithing Institute: AK-47 and Variants

M60
March 26, 2003, 09:45 PM
shiiii.... When I crushed AK's I used a bradly..... (guard detail at a road check point) must of crushed 100 or more of 'em.

And I ain't about to do it here.

Tommy Gunn
March 26, 2003, 10:36 PM
Heck, its just AK47's being destroyed. Not like the guy is busting up a fine old Mauser.

Nightcrawler
March 26, 2003, 10:50 PM
CZ-75, I'm in the military. I suppose you think I'm going to kick in my own door, say hi to my mom as I rush upstairs in battle rattle, grab my FAL and my other beloved firearms, and toss them off to be destroyed?

Is a future worst-case-scenario possible? Anything is possible. In the mean time, alienating military and law enforcement people with an us vs. them mentality will do us no good.

DMK
March 26, 2003, 11:49 PM
Guys, those AKs never had any hope of leaving that country, much less being allowed import here.

Better to destroy them than give allow the Iraqi's to get them back and later have some punk Al-Queda wanna-be hose down a squad of Marines catching a smoke break because Saddam used one of his parents for a human shield.

CZ-75
March 27, 2003, 12:08 AM
Is a future worst-case-scenario possible? Anything is possible. In the mean time, alienating military and law enforcement people with an us vs. them mentality will do us no good.

Funny, I perceive a lot of these folks having an us v. them attitude.

The military ought not to be a problem, but I keep seeing an intent to use them as domestic LE. A goodly number of LE think that they ought to be military, since they seem to want all the helmets, flak jackets, class III weapons, and armored vehicles to play with.

Any way you slice it, I seriously doubt that the attitude of gun owners is going to have an effect one way or the other. Those who don't value our rights won't be persuaded to do so, no matter what we say. Conversely, those who do respect the Constitution, will, irrespective and regardless.

Healthy skepticism is beneficial. I support our troops when they do what they're supposed to do - protect our country. I won't support them when they are used as an enforcement tool against US citizens. I won't be so conditioned that I can't tell the difference.

SquirrelNuts
March 27, 2003, 12:19 AM
A hypothetical poll was given to Marines once and they were asked if they would ever use force against American citizens, regardless of what they were doing wrong. Something like 90% said "No." It would be a completely different military then.

-SquirrelNuts

Wildalaska
March 27, 2003, 12:42 AM
I think there was a story circulating, possibly true, likely apocryphal, that they Armed Services were circulating questionaires, during the Klinton admin., asking if the soldier would be willing to confiscate weapons from US civilians if authorized by higher authorities. The possibility exists.

Tinfoil hats on everybody!!!!

Wild:barf: Alaska

CZ-75
March 27, 2003, 12:55 AM
likely apocryphal



WildneedsabiggervocabularyAlaska :rolleyes:





Oh, and I should mention that anyone who comes up with a winner like "scratch a German and you'll find a Nazi" is the last person who needs to chasten me as being a member of the "tinfoil hat" set. ;)

CWL
March 27, 2003, 01:57 AM
I'm actually FOR gun control -in Iraq!

Wildalaska
March 27, 2003, 02:19 AM
possibly true
likely apocryphal
The possibility exists

WildczneedstolearntowritebettersentencesthenandinaddtionthertofigureouthisowndistinctivesignatureratherthancopyingothersAlaska:neener:

PS...stickin up for der Vaterland now are ya? Read the Beast Reawakens sometimes for info about it....

Tamara
March 27, 2003, 07:58 AM
Scratch a German and you'll find a Nazi.

PS...stickin up for der Vaterland now are ya? Read the Beast Reawakens sometimes for info about it....

Wow, all this discussion about racial stereotypes; how very, well, "Nazi-esque". :scrutiny:

Tinfoil hats on everybody!!!!

The survey in question did, in fact, exist, but wasn't actually passed out to "all the armed services during the Klinton administration" or whatever; it was passed out to some Marines at Twentynine Palms by a Navy Lieutenant Commander to gather data for a thesis he was writing. It has since grown into quite the urban legend.

yesterdaysyouth
March 27, 2003, 08:26 AM
can't we just weld up the muzzles and give em back.....

illuminatus99
March 27, 2003, 09:07 AM
could you please post a disclaimer before posting an offensive picture like that? :p

if it were up to me they would be sending those AKs back to the states for sale to help offset the cost of the war. heck they could even send back some of those T-72s they've been finding uninhabited.

cratz2
March 27, 2003, 09:28 AM
Scratch me all you want WildAlaska... no Nazi underneath. Even though if I had absolute power, I might force all gun shops in Alaska that talk crap about SWFA for no reason to close their doors... Might even confiscate their inventory if there was anything that interested me. Some might consider that pretty Fascist, I suppose. :scrutiny:

Posts like this (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3112) definately offset your posts that do contribute to TheHighRoad.

And the 29 Palms survey definately took place. Or at least the thesis was written and published. I'd like to think he didn't use data he made up from thin air. :rolleyes:

cslinger
March 27, 2003, 09:48 AM
Do you just spend day and night soaking up information from various resources. I mean I thought I was reasonably well read.

You are like a walking encyclopedia complete with references. I wish I would have known you in college or better yet Catholic High School.

Chris.:D

buzz_knox
March 27, 2003, 10:49 AM
The survey took place, was published, and the results were that 25% of the Marines polled said they would be willing to kill American citizens to carry out gun confiscation. At least, that was the published result.

Sodbuster
March 27, 2003, 11:24 AM
its just AK47's being destroyed
Sacrilege! :) On another note, a camoflauge note to be exact and per another thread in political, woodland and desert sure don't go well together.

jsalcedo
March 27, 2003, 12:19 PM
Why not package them up and keep them offshore for the new Iraqi defense force we will create in a few months.

Our government could also sell them to allies or give them to insurgents we want to support.

I cringe eveytime I see good firearms get smashed.


Reminds me of a pic I saw about 15 years ago.
They had just allowed C&R military surplus rifles to be imported again.

They were 50 foot tall piles of Mausers and Mosin Nagants sitting
like kindling in the snow. (Thousands of rifles)

The caption explained that those were the guns checked out
that had bad headspacing or might be unsafe to shoot.
These guns were to be burned.

I never understood why they didn't sell them for parts like they do now.....

cratz2
March 27, 2003, 12:50 PM
Do you just spend day and night soaking up information from various resources. I mean I thought I was reasonably well read.

You are like a walking encyclopedia complete with references. I wish I would have known you in college or better yet Catholic High School.


Hey, what else do you think there is to do up 'On a mountaintop in Tennessee'? :p Have you read her interests in her profile? Reading comes before shooting. ;)

cratz2
March 27, 2003, 12:53 PM
The survey took place, was published, and the results were that 25% of the Marines polled said they would be willing to kill American citizens to carry out gun confiscation. At least, that was the published result.

I think the most interesting portion of the thesis has to do with Marine's willingness, or lack thereof, to following orders against American citizens from a NATO officer not from the United States. I know the percentage was higher if the order to fire came from a US officer.

Archie
March 27, 2003, 01:04 PM
Sometimes, it costs too much to store and move stuff. When the US pulled out of Vietnam, we dumped tons of equipment like field desks and old 2.5 ton trucks and various stuff. Because it cost more to (repair and) move it back to CONUS than to make it.

If the men breaking up the AKs are primary troops, they don't have a lot of time to sort, pack and store the arms. The objective RIGHT NOW is to disarm and disable the Iraqi war machine. Will it be regretful next year? Maybe. Gotta do what you gotta do.

TAMARA. Do you know where the thesis/paper regarding Marines serving to confiscate weapons is available? I remember hearing about it some eight or ten years ago, but never saw the results. There seems to be a difference of opinion here regarding the findings.

Lastly, military cannot be casually used in a LE role in the US unless the "Posse Comitatus" laws are revoked. The times military can be used are specific and pretty extreme. Still, laws can be changed. So watch your elected reps and vote conservative.

Kharn
March 27, 2003, 01:09 PM
The gun with its magazine well facing the camera is an RPK. I could have given that a good and loving home... :(

Kharn

Benjamin
March 27, 2003, 01:19 PM
And when this war is over, we will have thousands of well trained gun confiscators coming home.

tinfoil notwithstanding, if they were really well trained as gun grabbers, they would be using something with more gusto than a sledge....

I recall video of US troops trying to destroy a pile of AKM's and such, in a village in Afghaniland. One was hitting the receiver against what looked to be a mud brick hut. The mud bricks lost to the receiver. :rolleyes:

CZ-75
March 27, 2003, 02:32 PM
vote conservative

Who do you think got the idea we should use them in an interdiction role in the WOD?

Average Guy
March 27, 2003, 02:46 PM
Wow, all this discussion about racial stereotypes; how very, well, "Nazi-esque".

What's race got to do (got to do) with it?

M1911
March 27, 2003, 02:51 PM
When I crushed AK's I used a bradlyI was just about to ask why they didn't just run over them with a heavy vehicle. Seems like a whole bunch less work than smashing them with a sledgehammer.

Tamara
March 27, 2003, 04:19 PM
Sorry, I should have said "stereotypes based on particular chromosomal mixtures", since there might be about five members of H. Sapiens left on this planet of unmixed racial stock, if that many. (That, and the fact that any two human "races" differ less than any two breeds of terrier.)

El Tejon
March 27, 2003, 04:26 PM
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Breaking new alert from WETR (that's WElTejonRadio): Russia and Chine report--crunch all you want, we'll make more!:D

Bainx
March 27, 2003, 05:46 PM
We'll be right back after these words from our sponsor!:)

Justin
March 27, 2003, 06:15 PM
I'm not gonna lament the loss of a few dozen AK's. After all, there's between 30-50 million of the things floating around. I do recall reading an online account written by a soldier who was in Somalia and tasked with destroying small arms that had been confiscated from the locals.

He said the part that hurt the most was destroying the vintage Thompsons. (IIRC, their method involved digging a big pit, tossing all the guns in it, putting down some C4, covering the whole mess with lots of dirt, and then detonating it.)

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