Can a US Soldier carry a concealed weapon?


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Lone_Gunman
March 26, 2003, 10:12 PM
Of course he would have his rifle, and maybe a Beretta, but could he also carry a concealed handgun?

Does military policy or international agreement forbid this?

A hidden P32 might come in real handy if you get captured, I would think.

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George Hill
March 26, 2003, 10:13 PM
No. No CCW, No Personal Weapons.

Of course this rule quiet often unofficially goes out the window during a war.

Quartus
March 26, 2003, 10:19 PM
For every military unit there is a Table of Organization and Equipment. (TO&E) This specifies exactly the equipment issued to each soldier. It is a violation of regulations to have anything that is NOT on the TO&E. No, not even civilian socks!


But as George said...

Tommy Gunn
March 26, 2003, 10:33 PM
If I recall the laws of land warfare, one must bear their weapons openly. Weapons can not be concealed.

One could lose their POW status if caught with a concealed weapon and be considered an illegal combatant like any spy or terrorist.

QuarterBoreGunner
March 27, 2003, 12:28 AM
All the previous posts being stated; I have a very good friend of mine in the Marines (1st MEU, 3rd brigade...very pointy end of the spear) who is carrying a Smith & Wesson Airweight .38 with him.

We talked about this in early January, right before he shipped out- I gave him a box of LEO +P+ 110grn. Winchester I had sitting around.

God bless you Eric and come home in one piece.

Oh yeah, and don't let your CO see that .38

Drjones
March 27, 2003, 03:52 AM
Well, as with all laws, they are only useful if enforced.

Are they enforced?

I can't really imagine our military getting "surprise inspections" to make sure they don't commit the crime of carrying an extra weapon or some unauthorized tube socks.

And ESPECIALLY not if they have a roll of quarters to go with that sock!!!

:rolleyes:

Matt G
March 27, 2003, 05:16 AM
Unfortunately, I foresee future fallout from the "friendly fire" tent-fragging incident being further crackdowns on personal weapons. Would this make any sense? Of course not. But we are talking about a large bureaucratic organization, with not a few lawyers and the like. :rolleyes:


I had a subordinate who had been an Army surveillance helo pilot in VietNam for 2 tours, who stated that he took his issue sidearms and locked them up upon receipt, choosing to carry a Model 19, a J-frame, and a Commander instead. On more than one occasion, he said that he'd return to base with empty personal weapons. He stated that he didn't want to carry his issue sidearm, as he'd have to answer for it if he lost it.

--M.

Navy joe
March 27, 2003, 05:40 AM
Matt, you may be right, but consider that they had assigned that scum to guard the grenade depot. Hmm, wonder where he got the grenades.

Also, you are subject to search at any time while on gov't property such as a base, 4th amendment kinda not there.

I don't know of any international treaty against it, just U.S. regs.

I have never stood an armed watch without a back-up weapon.

Number 6
March 27, 2003, 06:00 AM
If i am not mistaken the Geneva Convention requires that all weapons be visible. Any infraction against that will null your protection underneath it, which would mean your possible prosecution as a War Criminal. This would also null your protection from execution and torture.

QuarterBoreGunner I hope those where not hollow points you gave your friend. Under the Geneva convention all military infantry ammunition must be FMJ, that I am sure of.

EOD Guy
March 27, 2003, 09:58 AM
If i am not mistaken the Geneva Convention requires that all weapons be visible. Any infraction against that will null your protection underneath it, which would mean your possible prosecution as a War Criminal. This would also
null your protection from execution and torture.

QuarterBoreGunner I hope those where not hollow points you gave your friend. Under the Geneva convention all military infantry ammunition must be FMJ, that I am sure of.

Not true! Hollow points are not mentioned in any of the Geneva Conventions. It is the Hauge Convention Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land that bans hollowpoint ammunition and requires that arms be carried openly. Also, the United States is not a signatory to the Convention but has stated that US forces will follow the requirements.

See the link for the text of the Convention.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm

Bonker
March 27, 2003, 06:20 PM
I think today they are pretty serious about only having military gear in the field.

In the old days though...

I can say that my dad carried a S&W .357 mag in vietnam. He hates autos, especially the 1911. The special-ops guys could carry pretty much anything they wanted.
I read about one guy who carried a .444 Marlin lever action!

QuarterBoreGunner
March 27, 2003, 06:31 PM
Number 6- yes, they were JHP. And yes we talked about the trouble he'd get into if his CO found out, but he decided it was worth the risk.

blades67
March 27, 2003, 06:45 PM
I think today they are pretty serious about only having military gear in the field.

In the old days though...

I can say that my dad carried a S&W .357 mag in vietnam. He hates autos, especially the 1911. The special-ops guys could carry pretty much anything they wanted.
I read about one guy who carried a .444 Marlin lever action!


He must have been a SEEL. :rolleyes:

blades67
March 27, 2003, 06:51 PM
Yes, as an agent of C.I.D. or equivalent.

Bonker
March 27, 2003, 07:00 PM
"He must have been a SEEL. "

The 444 guy was a SEAL, yes.

My dad, nope. but something like it. He trained with them but was actually part of a 2 man Navy team that flew out to downed aircraft on a marine chopper and blew up the plane after getting the top-secret gear off of it.
He actually got shot in the leg on the very first mission and the whole thing was turned over to the Air Force before he could get back to it.
He did tell me that when he hit the switch to blow the plance, they were about 300 yeards away and there were at least 200 enemy soldiers climbing on the plane. BOOM!
I'm glad too because I kinda' prefered to have my dad alive :)


It must have been tough because to this day he won't really talk about it and he refuses to watch any war movies. He hit the floor when we were watching Forest Gump and they showed the ambush scene.

I was with him about 4 years ago when he met with Pres. Clinton. Beforehand, we all had to get a security check from secret service. They said I was fine and then held my dad for a while. Finally they asked what he did in the Navy because his whole file was some sort of need to know thing and they couldn't get to it. LOL
Needless to say he got clearance :)

Quartus
March 27, 2003, 07:46 PM
I can't really imagine our military getting "surprise inspections" to make sure they don't commit the crime of carrying an extra weapon or some unauthorized tube socks.

Sir Jones, I hate to burst your bubble but that is EXACTLY what they do from time to time.


Especially when moving into and out of a country. Even in the military, you still gotta clear customs of the host country.


Unless you're invading them, of course. :D

EOD Guy
March 27, 2003, 08:08 PM
Yes, as an agent of C.I.D. or equivalent.

Not in a combat zone. All weapons must be carried openly, even CID agents.

Redlg155
March 27, 2003, 08:33 PM
Yep, concealed weapons are pretty much frowned upon. I knew a couple of guys who took them with us to Iraq but then had to ditch them prior to coming back to the states because they were worried they would get busted trying to clear customs.

Now edged weapons are a different story. Most of the guys had some sort of good boot knife or folder on them somewhere in case of trouble and of course the primary duty..to open MREs. :D

I wished that we could have brought back semi auto weapons. I had my hands on a couple of very nice Makarovs over there. :(

Good SHooting
RED

Kahr carrier
March 27, 2003, 08:46 PM
Heck you could probably pick up an extra gun or to on the battlefield and use them. Then ditch them before you went thru customs.

Steve in PA
March 27, 2003, 08:56 PM
When I was on active duty in the USMC and going to, during and coming back from overseas deployment, wanna know how many times all of our gear, wall lockers and personal effects were searched for contraband???

No personal weapons are allowed. Some one wants to carry a "concealed" weapon for his protection.........is just asking for a world of trouble. Not worth it.

There are certain "rules and regulations" regarding war. Using a weapon not specified is a big no-no!!!

As stated, edged weapons are a bit different. When I was in we were issued bayonets for our M-16's. Many of us carried either a Ka-Bar knife or some other edged weapon.

Scarface
March 27, 2003, 10:31 PM
Dear Lone,
In Viet nam, after the first time I was shot down, the only open weapon I carried was an M3 grease gun. The .45, .38 (for flares)and final holdout .25 were not to be seen.

:evil:

PvtPyle
March 27, 2003, 10:48 PM
God I love the SF! We have just about everything in the EP that you could imagine, and it is the CO's policy to generate our own EP when we arrive at our destination. And he and the boss dont really care what you carry as far as sidearms go. I know more than a few guys that carry concealed as well as their weapons in the open. Most of the time that weapon is one found in the theater (ammo is common for those guns in the areas away from the FOB).

On the note of HP's and SP's, yet another reason I love being attached to an SF unit. I saw four pallets of Sierra 77gr and TTI 106gr rounds in the ASP last month. You really need that extra little something when you only have 14.5 inches to work with :p The Sierra is SP and the TTI is a sudo-hollow point (actually it is a flangable jacket with an open nose and two 48gr compressed composite slugs inside. Very nasty according to initial field reports). I would bet just about anything that the regular legs units are only getting M855 and M193 rounds.

I would never try anything I had not run by the old man (at least in "casual" conversation) and gotten a heads up as to what I could expect if I was pinched carring something not on the TO&E.

Gordon
March 27, 2003, 11:06 PM
Yeah lets talk "good old days" : In my first tour I got in country just prior to Tet 68. I was waiting to be assigned and 'hanging loose' in a Cholon(Saion) Hotel next to some MPs . I spoke Vietnamese fluently and had 'contacts' to go visit , my only weapons were the Randall #1 and Walther PPk 380 I carried over on the jet NO INSPECTIONS. If I didn't have the PPK to jam into cyclo cab drivers ear when he was taking me elsewhere than the zoo I would have been dead. I weathered TET 68 (first time seen enemy fire and street combat) with MY weapons as none were issued me in the cluster of the next 30 days. My Randall went back with me (NO inspections ) a year later but the Walther was sold with two clips and 20 rounds for $200 and an M-3A1 to a chopper pilot.Next year back again with model 36 S&W .38spl my dad bought me along with the Randall. I 'purchased' a Carl Gustav sub gun in country from a Spec forces officer and was issued a 1911 which I USED) ,this tour was more professional and fought on our terms. I sold this Carl Gustaf 9mm to a nco in Da Nang who got in big trouble with it. I took home the S&W mod 36 and Randall with NO INSPECTIONS. Last time out for 6months in 71 I took the Randall and Mod 36, was issued a 1911 and damn near got killed(shot in helicopter) and took home my weapons NO inspection except dope dog sniffed luggage this time. I admire the new army's professionalism but think they spend too much time on PC crap like private weapons bans while their enemy thumbs their nose at all rules of war, sounds like another way for Gubbamint to make us lose wars. PS: John Muhammed threw a thermite grenade into officers tent like current slime, and was never charged as he fell thru PC cracks into honorable discharge. But warriors can't have choice of weapons!

CZ-75
March 27, 2003, 11:11 PM
Must've changed in the past 40 years, then.

My uncle was in Vietnam in '65 with the 1st Inf; I believe he said he was in the first battalion deployed there. He has mentioned that he carried 3 weapons consistently: A 1911, a S&W .38 snub strapped in an ankle rig (I would assume concealed), and a Winchester 1897 12 ga. pump.

Oh, and as Gordon has mentioned, NO INSPECTIONS. He said some guy had packed their duffles full of both captured souvenirs AND US Army issued weapons. He wished he had done the same, but wasn't interested too much in weapons after he was done, but wishes he had his 1897 still.

Dr.Rob
March 28, 2003, 05:52 AM
I've heard everything for don't ask don't tell to heck yes to heck no.

I know a few Air Force guys that took their own weapons last time around. they were flying in bad guy airspace and were NOT issued defensive weapons in the event of a shoot down.

The official policy is no.

In the field? You gotta be kidding. There is a reason all POW's get searched. Concealed weapons are expected.

blackhawk2000
March 28, 2003, 10:19 AM
My Dad tried to bring a crossbow back from Vietnam. He said they wouldn't let him.

Leatherneck
March 28, 2003, 03:05 PM
We pilots were offered our choice of a 1911 or a Bodyguard to carry in our survival vests; so I chose "yes" and carried both, with the .38 completely concealed. :D

TC
TFL Survivor

Bonker
March 28, 2003, 03:44 PM
I heard that the 38 for pilots was the first airweight model from S&W. True? I bet is was interesting to feel a 16oz 38 in the 1960's !

Blackhawk
April 8, 2003, 12:57 PM
I heard that the 38 for pilots was the first airweight model from S&W. True? I bet is was interesting to feel a 16oz 38 in the 1960's !

Dunno if there were any airweights, but mine wasn't.

Leatherneck
April 8, 2003, 04:43 PM
Me too. Standard steel version of the Bodyguard.

TC
TFL Survivor

dance varmint
April 8, 2003, 05:19 PM
Hmm. If I were a soldier facing an enemy that has already executed my countrymen, would I trust my life to the Hague Convention, or to a Glock 26? Dilemma resolution time = 0.0013 seconds, a new world record.

Pilot
April 8, 2003, 05:36 PM
Leatherneck,

What did you fly? F-4, A-4, Bronco, A-6, 01?

wun_8_seven
April 8, 2003, 07:06 PM
just before deploying to saudi before desert storm i received

a care package from home containing 1 sig p226 12 mags and 1 huge custom knife. do you think i left them at bragg? 187

Kristofer
April 9, 2003, 12:37 AM
Not just no, but hell no! Directly involved in combat they might over look. Anytime else, you will be prosecuted with extreme prejudice. Trust me I found out.

RustyHammer
April 9, 2003, 01:33 PM
I thought that's what the MRE's were ... well, the next morning, anyway!:fire: :D :neener:

Leatherneck
April 10, 2003, 08:19 AM
Leatherneck, What did you fly? F-4, A-4, Bronco, A-6, 01?
Pilot, Skyhawks out of Chu Lai, class of 68-69 :D F-4 and OV-10 later.
Congrats on your 100th post, BTW.

TC
TFL Survivor

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