[artherd]

This is third party (message) but from a CHP OFFICER, good friend and shooting buddy of mine who is one of the 100 CA CHP officers in NO right now.


1) The CHP is under no orders to confiscate legally owned firearms, infact later that day they encountered houses full of guns and wished the residents well. They are not disarming people withought other extenuating circumstances.

2) The CHP is under orders to remove people from the area designated for MANDATORY evacuation. This is ostentiobly a legal act, authority to do so has been grated and the CHP is taking orders from the NO State Police who are under the Governor, who is under the direction of FEMA. They have been Federalized, and the feds may mandate an evac. It is not clear if they are infact FORCING people to leave, or entering and "STERNELY ADVISING" them that they are to leave.

3) Houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered or if the door is open. If the door is closed and knocks are not answered they are moving on

4) The issue of the old lady is still cloudy. However, HER DOOR WAS OPEN, so the CHP entered her house. We did see her sweep the cameraman with her revolver. It is not clear wether she pointed it at the cops or not, nor is it clear how in command of her faculties she was. In any event, she was NOT left defenseless, but evacuated. I do not know if she was arreasted or merely sent on her way, this is where the cell connection got spotty and dropped.




He was present and *IN* the videotaped incident with the old woman if you remember. To protect his identity I will not say more.

Hopefully more from him soon. Godspeed and stay safe buddy.

EDITs to clairify what is happening. MORE Edits, I do not know if they are forcing evictions or advising at this point.

[dasmi]

All the video I've seen seems to suggest otherwise, but I truly hope you are correct.

[Jim Diver]

I agree. From what video I saw, I do not buy it.

Unless there were there for a reason other than evacuating her, they could have defused the situation by just leaving.

So, why were they there? To evacuate her or something else? Not enough info is provided in your post to explain what we saw.

I would like your friend to come online here and explain what we saw.

[Derby FALs]

They'll get no sympathy from me. She repeatedly told them she didn't want them in her house.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

[artherd]

Unfortunately my friend is busy rescueing people. He has minimal cell phone battery and coverage only spotty at best in some areas. He's too busy saving lives to come on and placate a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks on the internet, let's get real here folks.

The CHP *are* under orders to evacuate people. They are knocking and if they answer, they are evacuated. They are also entering open doors (this lady had her door open.)

This lady grabed her revolver & knife when officers walked in her open door to evacuate her.

They are however NOT entering when the door is closed and goes unanswered. (remenber, this is just the 100person CHP team I have information on. We have video of others breaking down doors.)

That's all I have when his cell phoen went out.


Look, belive it or belive an edited jump-cut video that shows what appears to be an arreast. If you have ever been involved in an incident that was reported on the national level by media, you know how they can twist circumstances to look like almost anything.

EVACS and protective custody are one thing (I'm not thrilled with how it is being applied, but it is fully legal and may be an important disease control factor.) The CHP are doing this ONLY if your door is open or if you answer it.

Forced disarmament and abandonment is something completely different! This is NOT what the CHP are doing, nor are they under any orders to do so.

Again, I can only speak to what I have heard about this 100man contingient from someone who is part of it. NOPD, guard, etc. may be doing something completely different.

[Derby FALs]

My door can be wide open but it doesn't mean you're welcome across the threshold. I don't need the likes of them rescuing me.

[Coronach]

It hinges upon what brought them there, what got them through the threshold, and what they believe gave them the reason to take her into custody. The situation is further muddied by this 'state of emergency' order, and the question of what powers that grants the executive (if any).

The video I saw was edited, in that it started with the officers already in the house, and then there was some manner of edit, and then they are grappling with her. There's a lot left out.

I can think of multiple perfectly up-and-up scenarios that would lead to that encounter (most of them hinging upon decreased mental state). I can also think of a couple of not so nice ones as well.

It's worth nothing that everyone here is, as usual, going automatically with the worst-case scenarios.

Mike

[kbr80]

Video says otherwise. Old lady got thumped. She asked them, several times to leave if there were just doing welfare checks, why did they not leave. Their presence was the esclation needed that resluted in the above mentioned thumping of an old lady on national TV. Dont care if her door is open, knock, then asked permisson to enter, this is still america.

[Coronach]

My door can be wide open but it doesn't mean you're welcome across the threshold. I don't need the likes of them rescuing me.Well, I'm guessing that they are being tasked with checking unsecured houses for sick and injured people. If so, they have an affirmative duty to proceed inside. Would this fly under normal circumstances? Probably not, absent other evidence of foul play/distress/wrongdoing. In this instance, however, it probably would.

Mike

[Publicola]

Artherd,
She was in her home. She told the officers to leave. They were talking to her for what seemed like more than a few seconds while she had the gun in view. (from my understanding they asked her to show them her guns when she told them she had one, but that's unsubstantiated). The only mistake the lady made was in not shooting the cop as he rushed her.

Let me be clear about this - a lady was attacked in her own home by cops who had been told to leave.

If a burglar broke in your grandmother's houe & she told him to leave, then he rushed her & hurt her in the process, then would you be wondering if maybe it was because she waved a gun at him?

It is no different that they were cops - foreign cops no less. (& yes; cali is foreign to La just as NY is foreign to Savannah) Every cop in that room acted horrendously even if by simply conding the others actions through inaction.

You're not really saying that an elderly lady deserved to be tackled by intruders are ya? I understand he's your buddy & all but c'mon Art - some things cannot & should not be justified. Disarming an elderly lady in her own home through force is one of them.

[kbr80]

Well, I'm guessing that they are being tasked with checking unsecured houses for sick and injured people. If so, they have an affirmative duty to proceed inside. Would this fly under normal circumstances? Probably not, absent other evidence of foul play/distress/wrongdoing. In this instance, however, it probably would.


I Agree, but its not right, IMO. Even if, in this situation, you can do this, once you are in a house, and the resident says get out, thats is, you leave.

[kbr80]

They were talking to her for what seemed like more than a few seconds while she had the gun in view.

And not holding it in a threatning manner. The cops had no business asking, if they did, if she had a gun. Her on the other hand should have said no if the asked to see it. An old women, tackled on national tv, does not bode well for the image of LEO's.

[artherd]

Once again, they are going house to house to house to enforce an MANDATORY evacuation order. I do not know if they are using force to do so, or simply asking people to come along.

Wether these guys are welcome in her home or not, they have statute authority to remove her. Persons who have failed to evacuate as of a week ago are all misdomenor offenders guys.

Right or wrong, that is the issue we need to be attacking.

And if there is an outbreak (or even a serious potential for one) of let's say WEST NILE VIRIUS, should we allow some dumb old lady to stay in her house, get infected and die, *AND* allow the rescureres to be exposed to her diseased remains?

It's a hell of a question, one I am not sure I have a good answer for. Especially when you remove the gun-grabbing aspect of it that is not occuring in this case.

All I can come up with is, vest the authority to COMPELL evacs with the CDC alone and exclusively. The slimey NO officals should not have that ability.

[Jim Diver]

They are knocking and if they answer, they are evacuated. .....

Wether these guys are welcome in her home or not, they have statute authority to remove her.


I disagree. Every lawyer type person I have seen interviewed says the police cannot for them to leave. Period.

Every news report I have read says there are no forced evacuations. So who's telling the truth?

Why evacuate her against her will? Her house appears to be intact. There is no flooding. She could defend herself against looters and criminals.

And if there is an outbreak (or even a serious potential for one) of let's say WEST NILE VIRIUS, should we allow some dumb old lady to stay in her house, get infected and die, *AND* allow the rescureres to be exposed to her diseased remains?

Yes. Cause it is her damned right to stay in her home. Your argument is a red herring. Cops and EMS/Fire deal with corpses all the time. They know how to protect themselves from disease. If she wants to die there then let her. It's her right.

[Coronach]

I disagree. Every lawyer type person I have seen interviewed says the police cannot force them to leave. Period.That opinion seems to be at odds with the written law. Now, to be completely fair, there is a very valid question about whether or not that law will stand up in court. How does one find that out? By having a test case.

Well, oh goody. Looks like we have a whole mess of them, huh? On the plus side (and yes, I'm really digging for that silver lining), a lot of questions about what a government has the authority to do are going to be decided in court following the fallout from this mess.

The law seems poorly written, possibly (probably?) unconstitutional, the governor and the mayor don't seem to know what they have the authority to do, let alone what they want to do. This all adds up to a cluster.Every news report I have read says there are no forced evacuations. So who's telling the truth?I suspect that they were under the impression that she had diminished mental capacity upon contact with her, either due to senile dementia or, more likely, complications of dehydration. I'm not saying they were correct in that assessment, merely that this seems to be the angle they were pursuing. As such, I bet they were tasked with going door to door, talking and persuading people, and in this instance they thought they had one they would have to take into protective custody.

Truth be told? She didn't seem that with it, but I only watched the video once. Waving around a gun doesn't help that perception. Depending on what happened prior to the cameras rolling and in that unrecorded interval between talking and grappling (in my clip at least), they might be able to meet the burden of proof for protective custody due to compromised mental health. I dunno what that is in LA.

[swampsniper]

"And if there is an outbreak (or even a serious potential for one) of let's say WEST NILE VIRIUS, should we allow some dumb old lady to stay in her house, get infected and die".
=========================================

The alligators in my back yard test positive for west Nile. The point should be, if this dumb old man wants to die in his own house, leave me alone!
I've learned a lesson. If I get stuck in a NO situation, and hear jack boots on the porch, I will start pumping 12 guage slugs through the door. If you just want to talk, stand in the yard, and yell! :banghead:

[dustind]

ONLY if your door is open or if you answer it. emphasis mine. I do not see how you can consider that a good thing, assuming I am interpreting your correctly.

I am curious how much if any gun grabbing is going on.

[50 Freak]

1) The CHP is under no orders to confiscate legally owned firearms, infact later that day they encountered houses full of guns and wished the residents well. They are not disarming people withought other extenuating circumstances.

2) The CHP is under orders to remove people from the area designated for MANDATORY evacuation. This is ostentiobly a legal act, authority to do so has been grated and the CHP is taking orders from the NO State Police who are under the Governor, who is under the direction of FEMA. They have been Federalized, and the feds may mandate an evac. It is not clear if they are infact FORCING people to leave, or entering and "STERNELY ADVISING" them that they are to leave.

3) Houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered or if the door is open. If the door is closed and knocks are not answered they are moving on

4) The issue of the old lady is still cloudy. However, HER DOOR WAS OPEN, so the CHP entered her house. We did see her sweep the cameraman with her revolver. It is not clear wether she pointed it at the cops or not, nor is it clear how in command of her faculties she was. In any event, she was NOT left defenseless, but evacuated. I do not know if she was arreasted or merely sent on her way, this is where the cell connection got spotty and dropped.



1) Since they were not under orders. Why did they take her gun away from her? Was it for fun?

2) Still no Marshal Law has been declared. And if forced evacuation had been declared, why have not the Army done so (they're federal). They still refuse to do so and say it is up to the local police to do so. I don't buy this. Didn't know FEMA can order a governor of a state to do anything.

Sounds like a very "gray" area the Gov and Mayor are doing. Wonder what the legal ramifications will be after all this is said and done. As to date, no official Marshal law has been announced. The NOPD are "STERNLY asking" people to evacuate. In my book, I'd "STERNLY" tell them to take a flying leap. If a legal marshal law was announced by the Gov. then that's a different story.

And if you remember. A day or two before this news report came out that bonehead Mayor had said it was okay to go home if you were in a "safe" area.

That old ladies neighborhood was dry as a whistle and if they were in her kitchen, obviously, her house wasn't destroyed. Not like she was sitting on a pile of rubble shooting her guns in the air.

3) Don't know about this rule, been watching TV and pretty much in all the news programs, I see the police kicking in doors, or using battering rams, or using chains tied to cars. They are doing a house to house search for "dead bodies".

4) Not clear if she was in command of her faculties???? She seemed perfectly fine when she said she didn't want to leave and told the police to leave her house. She was actually in the process of giving an interview to the news crew before getting tackled. Don't buy this excuse at all.

[kayak bum]

What, if anything, has the state done to actually provide these officers with law enforcement authority so far out of jurisdiction? A small point, but an important one. Has anyone bothered to swear these folks in as peace officers in Louisiana?

[Joejojoba111]

"kayak bum What, if anything, has the state done to actually provide these officers with law enforcement authority so far out of jurisdiction? A small point, but an important one. Has anyone bothered to swear these folks in as peace officers in Louisiana?"


Umm, FEMA is in complete control, have been from the very second the hurricane touched land/swamp. At that moment all conrol of every aspect was turned over to them, as determined at an earlier date.

AIUI they are accountable to Dept. Homeland Security, and so-on.


My gut tells me that you don't want to know what authority they're acting under, because it probably exists - now. 10 years ago probably not, but this is the new America.

[FPrice]

Mike,

It's worth nothing that everyone here is, as usual, going automatically with the worst-case scenarios.

If it wasn't for dwelling on "worst-case scenarios" many people on the internet would have nothing to do.

A small point, but an important one. Has anyone bothered to swear these folks in as peace officers in Louisiana?

Yes. Video from the same site that showed the old lady also showed the CHP being sworn in by (if I recall correctly) the chief of the LA HP in some sort of special status.

[farad]

The video I saw was edited, in that it started with the officers already in the house, and then there was some manner of edit, and then they are grappling with her. There's a lot left out.

It's worth nothing that everyone here is, as usual, going automatically with the worst-case scenarios.

I hope that mental security blanket is worth it.

[goalie]

Fact: It is a misdemeanor to refuse to obey the mandatory evacuation order.

Fact: Pointing a weapon at someone is using deadly force.

Fact: It is unlawful for the police and authorities to use deadly force because of a misdemeanor violation.

[50 Freak]

I wish I could find a site that had the full video. If you see the full thing, the old lady had the pistol and knife in one hand. She was holding the pistol on the top strap with a folded knife underneath. Her finger was not on the trigger. She was showing the camera (as at the time she was being interviewed) that she was armed and could take care of herself. The reason they were in the kitchen was she was showing them she had plenty of food and could take care of herself.

She was also telling the officers, "You're going to have to shoot me to get me out of here, I don't want you in here" You can hear the officers in the back ground saying. "We wouldn't shoot you. we don't want to hurt you". Then one officer tackles her.


"A police spokesman said Sunday that authorities will not forcibly remove the holdouts. Capt. Marlin Defillo said authorities will continue to go house-to-house informing residents that they are in violation of mandatory evacuation orders, "but we will not physically force them out of their homes."" http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/12/katrina.impact/index.html


"With up to 10,000 residents still refusing to leave, authorities were bracing for a showdown to enforce an order to clear the deluged city.

Sherry Landry, the city attorney, insisted that the evacuation would not come down to the use of force. "At this time force is not being used to evacuate those persons who are already in the city," she said.

"Rather, our officers and troops continue to strongly encourage, strongly encourage, those folks in the city that are not associated with the recovery effort to leave. We are not currently implementing forced evacuations.""
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050909/wl_afp/usweather_050909171820


I wish they would get their freaking stories straight.

[feedthehogs]

most of them hinging upon decreased mental state

But not in her circumstance.
While not a shrink, it was pretty clear from these common ears of what her wishes were. Get out and leave.

Yes the video was edited. But in whose favor?

The longer authority, in this case the CHP, irritates and antagonizes someone, the more likely something will happen.

The woman may have pointed the gun at them. But it was clear way before that that they were not welcomed in her home.


Sometimes I think irritation is a method to make something happen.
After all its much easier to justify shoulder tackling an old lady up against the wall if she pointed a knife or gun at you than if she didn't.

What ever happened to backing off and letting the situation cool down or just go away.

After all she wants to be on her own. If she dies then your clear of any wrong doing. End of story.

Forcing old people to leave their homes is traumatic.
When my grandfather died, my dad was selling the house and moving my grandmother in with us. She was still very mobile and did not want to leave and fought my dad.
My dad won and when the contract on her house was signed, she just gave up and died with no health problems at all.

I know the cops have a job to do. Sometimes its really miserable.
But somewhere along the line common sense has to prevail.

[RealGun]

Once again, they are going house to house to house to enforce an MANDATORY evacuation order.

While at the same time the talking heads are reporting people and business owners returning. My take is that areas intended to be condemned and seized by the City are being evacuated. Something doesn't add up with this "for their own good" nonsense.

[Spot77]

Artherd,

I hope your buddy gets through this with his mind and body intact.

It must be an extremely confusing time for many of the rescue workers.

I suspect the psychological impact will be tremendous upon those there who are forced to make unthinkable decisions.

[ID_shooting]

I smell bovine based plant growth additive.

"Houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered or if the door is open. If the door is closed and knocks are not answered they are moving on"

It is pushing 100 degrees, you have no power, humidity is way up, ya, my front door and all my windows would be open. That still gives no one the right to come in my house.

"The CHP is under no orders to confiscate legally owned firearms"

Didn't we just see video of the CLEO saying "only the cops could have guns"

"It is a misdemeanor to refuse to obey the mandatory evacuation order."

We are all one law away from being felons. IF Sen. Clinton becomes POTUS and urges a law to be passed that anything holding more than 6 rounds is not for sporting purposes and must be turned in, and we refuse, we just became criminals. Same thing applies here, just because it is law, does not make it justified or right.


Forced disarmament and abandonment is something completely different! This is NOT what the CHP are doing, nor are they under any orders to do so.

If they are not under orders to do it, why did they? I smell "damage control" or "spin doctoring" whatever you want to call it. Your buddies team may not have torn doors down, but other squads did. It is all in of the same, they all have the same orders that came down from the same command structure.

Until I see a the gov, mayor, or CLEO returning people to thier homes WITH WEAPONS, I won't buy it, not one little bit.

[beerslurpy]

1) The CHP is under no orders to confiscate legally owned firearms, infact later that day they encountered houses full of guns and wished the residents well. They are not disarming people withought other extenuating circumstances.

2) The CHP is under orders to remove people from the area designated for MANDATORY evacuation. This is ostentiobly a legal act, authority to do so has been grated and the CHP is taking orders from the NO State Police who are under the Governor, who is under the direction of FEMA. They have been Federalized, and the feds may mandate an evac. It is not clear if they are infact FORCING people to leave, or entering and "STERNELY ADVISING" them that they are to leave.

3) Houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered or if the door is open. If the door is closed and knocks are not answered they are moving on

4) The issue of the old lady is still cloudy. However, HER DOOR WAS OPEN, so the CHP entered her house. We did see her sweep the cameraman with her revolver. It is not clear wether she pointed it at the cops or not, nor is it clear how in command of her faculties she was. In any event, she was NOT left defenseless, but evacuated. I do not know if she was arreasted or merely sent on her way, this is where the cell connection got spotty and dropped.


1) Then why are they doing it? Why are they escalating situations to the point where people are waving firearms and telling them to get out of their houses?

2) The legality of this, and whether the cops are local/federal/whatever will have to be settled later.

3) The 4th amendment is still in effect. Unless someone invites you in and doesnt ask you to leave, you have no business entering. Martial law has NOT been declared, and even if it had, the 4th amendment must still be obeyed.

4) This is totally BS. She WAS left defenseless and she WAS removed from the safety of her home.

[Shweboner]

Im looking through the phone book this morning, looking for the number to "BS" ... I think I need to call it.

[geekWithA.45]

No doctrine allows police to enter a home without a warrant merely because the resident answered the door, unless they see evidence of a crime in plain view from the door, like a mountain of crack piled up on the foyer floor.

I would like to get some clarification as to what level of force is authorized for misdemeanor arrests down there. I'm suspecting it's something like they can issue a summons, and that's about it.

[publius]

All I can come up with is, vest the authority to COMPELL evacs with the CDC alone and exclusively. The slimey NO officals should not have that ability.No way. Just because the feds are slightly less slimy than Nawlins officials does not mean they are less slimy than my state and local officials. My local authorities would not order me out without a darn good reason. I can't say that for anyone else. Leave it at the local level, and if Nawlins is ruled by scum, too bad.

[Molon Labe]

Wether these guys are welcome in her home or not, they have statute authority to remove her.And she had authority to defend herself against the JBTs. It's a shame she didn't exercise it.

[Master Blaster]

Houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered or if the door is open. If the door is closed and knocks are not answered they are moving on

Horse Manure

I just sat and watched film of about 8 law enforcement folks of some type presented on MSNBC. They were heavily armed and dressed in bullet proof attire, using a battering ram to break in locked doors of houses where there was no answer. They commentator interviewed one of them and they said:

They were breaking in locked doors to check if anybody was home or if there were any dead bodies. They were doing this because the MAYOR ordered them to do a house to house search. So if the looters left your house alone, count on the pilice to break in your door and leave your house wide open to make the next looter's job easier.

[Lone_Gunman]

I hope your buddy gets through this with his mind and body intact.

I hope his mind, if not his body, are radically changed by this experience. I have seen video footage of the police chief in New Orleans stating that only law enforcement will have guns in New Orleans. Then I have seen multiple news reports and video footage of police actually confiscating weapons.

I think what they are doing, and what they are saying, have now become two different things.

It is my understanding that martial law is not in effect. It is my understanding that the order to disarm the stragglers in New Orleans has come from the Mayor and Police Chief, not the governor, president, or federal bureaucrat.

I do not believe the Mayor has the authority to suspend the Constitituion and demand guns be confiscated.

I do not believe law enforcement have the authority to enter homes, without being invited in. Entering a home just because the door is open is still an illegal entry, and even if the police found something illegal inside, I don't see how it could be used as evidence since the search was illegal.

I believe police officers from at least several agencies are following illegal orders en masse.

If I was in New Orleans, barricaded in my own home, with my own weapons inside to protect me, and the California Highway Patrol entered my home, and demanded my weapons, I would surrender them. I don't want them to murder my family over guns. I am not going to make wild internet claims that I would yell "molon labe" and then engage in a shootout with 5 or 6 armored soldiers with fully automatic rifles. That would just get me killed, and in the news I would be labelled a crazy gun nut who left the police no choice but to kill him. However, I would do everything in my power to achieve justice in the court system.

I realize though, this is not how the founding fathers would have handled the situation, and simply surrendering to police who are violating your rights is not the morally correct thing to do. Rights are granted by our Creator, or so I have read. Mortal man should be allowed to strip away these rights, even under extreme circumstances. God-given rights should be defended with deadly force.

If the law enforcement officers who are collecting guns (and I have no doubt that is being done) were met with a hail of gunfire everytime they tried, I think their enthusiasm for violating the Constitution would soon decline.

This should not be misconstrued as advocacy for violence against law enforcement officers. In fact it is quite the contrary. Officers following the letter of the law, and allowing the Constitution to stand, should be supported in all ways. Officers who violate the Constitution are criminals, and do not necessarily deserve the same treatment.

[HankB]

I would do everything in my power to achieve justice in the court system.I understand your point - liberty isn't worth spilling blood or risking your life, and OF COURSE the courts will compensate you.

I also believe many German Jews felt the same on Kristallnacht. If the law enforcement officers who are collecting guns (and I have no doubt that is being done) were met with a hail of gunfire everytime they tried, I think their enthusiasm for violating the Constitution would soon decline As long as it's done by someone else, eh?

This is a seriously bad situation - as I've written on another thread, even if I had been dumb enough to buy a below-sea-level home protected by Cat 3 levees, I would've left as soon as I heard a Cat4/5 storm was coming. And I wouldn't be camped out in a home soaked in that toxic brew.

But IF I had a home untouched by flood waters, and IF I had provisions . . . I WOULD stay put.

[Lone_Gunman]

I understand your point - liberty isn't worth spilling blood or risking your life, and OF COURSE the courts will compensate you.

Hank, I don't see a reason to engage in a fight that I know I will lose. It is not a matter of "risking your life". It is guaranteed death if you try to fight 6 armored men with fully automatic rifles, and unlimited backup.

Before you ride off on your high horse, please remember that our Founders did not intentionally engage in fights they knew they would lose. If patriots had, one at a time, gone up against a platoon of Red Coats, there would have been a whole lot less patriots around when it really mattered, and that would have ended our Revolution rather quickly.

What I am saying, and what you are not understanding, is that suicide does not defend liberty.

But IF I had a home untouched by flood waters, and IF I had provisions . . . I WOULD stay put.

Even if you were forcibly disarmed? Would you surrender your weapons if asked? If not, are you willing to die?

[RealGun]

This should not be misconstrued as advocacy for violence against law enforcement officers. In fact it is quite the contrary. Officers following the letter of the law, and allowing the Constitution to stand, should be supported in all ways. Officers who violate the Constitution are criminals, and do not necessarily deserve the same treatment.

If LEOs are breaking the law, all bets are off. If you can figure out how to survive a show down or to have a chance, you should be shooting. You might surrender pistols and come back as a sniper or in force with other patriots using rifles. You will not be the one who started it. You would be in the right. The reason you have the right to bear arms is to resist exactly this sort of situation.

What's the difference between an illegal insurgency and a patriotic uprising? Where you have a problem is that the Constitution has not been upheld to mean what it says and what was obviously intended. You're screwed. RKBA is a fantasy. It won't mean anything until it's too late.

[TexasRifleman]

Spoken by Coronach:

It's worth nothing that everyone here is, as usual, going automatically with the worst-case scenarios

This is the best answer I've seen to all of this. We've seen edited videos from the press, who we constantly rip into as being innacurate. We constantly attack the press as being sensational.

When did we decide to take everything the press does as gospel?

I suspect when this is all over you won't be able to find a single NO resident
that had their firearms taken without justification that would have existed even outside of an emergency.

I had to leave one forum I USED to frequent because of all the "calling for the head" of NRA, GOA, FEMA, NOPD, whoever. Funny now that the stories begin to come out, turns out there was nothing there.

Most important lesson to learn here?

As usual, don't trust the press. We should have known that all along.

[Robert Hairless]

I am deeply disturbed by the statement that law enforcement will enter an American's house "ONLY if your door is open or if you answer it." Must we now hide in our own homes, keep our doors locked, and not answer?

That statement also is evidently untrue. The ABC News Report video of September 8, 2005, shows officers and guardsmen armed with assault weapons breaking into a locked house.

It will be easy to spin such incidents into acts "for the public good" or "for their own good, and even to deny the incidents as in the above quotation. But ordinary people can see past the spin to the visible facts: that state and local governments have joined together to abuse law abiding citizens at gunpoint.

These acts are outrageous. Each and every participant in them should be punished.

[RavenVT100]

There was a blog linked earlier of a retired NOPD officer. He suggests simply complying with the confiscation/eviction order while collecting the names/badge numbers of everyone involved. After the whole Katrina incident is over, the next step is to sue for violation of civil rights. I am sure something would be done if enough people filed suit, and I fully expect lawsuits to occur given that many of these homes that are being broken into appear to be dry homes that belong to wealthy individuals.

Keep in mind that the individual officers involved can be sued for this, if indeed it is illegal (and it seems very obviously so).

For the sake of those officers who were "detaining" that old woman on national TV, I hope the raw footage that was shot shows their actions to be justifiable (if it even can). Because if it does not, I am sure that it can be subpoenaed as evidence in a civil suit. If it were my house, and if someone came in and did that to me or my wife, in front of my kids, you can rest assured I'd be looking to collect in the courtroom--as a matter of principle. No violence need enter into the equation.

[F4GIB]

[quote]We did see her sweep the cameraman with her revolver[quote]

Not in any if the 3 TV clips I viewed. She was holding it by the frame (unshootable position) and pointed to in a "safe" direction.

She clearly said:

"I don't want you in here."

"After the takedown, "You son of a b***H."

She was old, slow talking, angry, Southern and black. Which do you think convinced the CHP officers that she had "diminished capacity?"

If that's their test, I'm in trouble because I'm old, slow talking, Midwestern and white, and I'd be very, very ANGRY when they violate my Fourth Amendment rights and refuse to leave when ordered out.

IMHO your CHP buddy (1) has been fooled by his own guys or (2) is lying as part of an agency cover up of what they did to her.

[F4GIB]

My take is that areas intended to be condemned and seized by the City are being evacuated. Something doesn't add up with this "for their own good" nonsense.

You heard it here first, the real estate industry is going to "gentrify" those areas with concrete condos (Hurricane proof) and bring in affluant persons (mostly white) to this beautifully reconstructed, Frence influenced city. The developers and local construction industry will make billions off the feds. Some dollars will flow to local officials and everyone who IS everyone will be joyous at the reconstruction.

The original residents will be somewhere else, out of sight.

[K-Romulus]

The "old lady" video making the rounds shows what looks (to me, at least) like an older "white" woman being roughed up . . .

(link to photos)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1904660&postcount=72

[WT]

CHP may not be under orders to do so but The Times Picayune newspaper of New Orleans says that CHP officers ARE confiscating weapons.

[TallPine]

I suspect that they were under the impression that she had diminished mental capacity upon contact with her, either due to senile dementia or, more likely, complications of dehydration.
Oh yeah, just as soon as anyone disagrees with the "official" wisdom, then they are automatically labelled a mental case ... :rolleyes:

Very convenient :(


Now, just to get this straight... did or did not the NO chief of police (or whatever he is called down there) state publicly that no one but police would be allowed to have weapons in NO...? :confused:

(I don't watch TV so I am going on printed quotes from the NY Times, or misquotes as the case may be)

[Gunpacker]

In the beginning of the video, the cops were talking to the lady through the window. I am guessing that she didn't say "hi guys come right in." It was obvious that she did not want them in her house from the beginning. My question is, why were they in there. She probably told them the same thing thru the window, yet they escalated. Additionally, she was not pointing the gun at anyone thru the window. As for sweeping folks with guns, just look at some of the gun handling of the cops and military.

[RavenVT100]

Now, just to get this straight... did or did not the NO chief of police (or whatever he is called down there) state publicly that no one but police would be allowed to have weapons in NO...?

They showed a clip of him saying that on TV, yes.

[migoi]

"We're not forcing anyone to leave except crazy people for their own protection. If you want to stay you have to be crazy. If you're crazy we will force you to leave for your own protection."

Didn't someone write a book like that?

migoi

[Robert Hairless]

WT -- CHP may not be under orders to do so but The Times Picayune newspaper of New Orleans says that CHP officers ARE confiscating weapons.

Not to worry. That's what they do in California. It's a genetically transmitted reflex: "See citizen. Citizen have gun. Gun bad. Take gun." The reflex ensures the supremacy of the California Highway Patrol, which would be threatened if the reflex were: "See criminal. Criminal attack citizen. Criminal have gun. Citizen not have gun. Take criminal."

Is anyone else wondering about the effects of these actions by law enforcement and National Guard on their reputations for serving and protecting the people of this country? Do you think that a lot more people will trust and urge support for these courageous men who overpower elderly women and respectable citizens in their own homes? And for their own good, of course. Or do you think that they look sort of like jack booted thugs in action?

[WR Olsen]

The big question seems to be "mandatory evacuation". If I understand LA law correctly failure to evacuate is a misdemeanor. With that in mind the actions of local authority seems to be questionable at best.
I suspect there will be a LOT of civil court procedings when things calm down and the local courts start operating again.

[Kim]

I find the idea of decreased mental capacity hilarious. Does anyone remember the 1980's were the left brought out the homeless numbers to bang Reagan with. Does anyone remember the ACLU and the court cases for the rights of these persons. I do. There was a black lady who lived on the streets of NY(can't remember what name she went by). But she was their test client. The USSC ruled she could not be forced off the streets. This is a lady that lived in a carboard box, used the streets for her toilet and rummed in garbage cans for food. She was deemed by the USSC to be competent. Being a physician I know well it is almost impossible to force someone aganist their will to do anything. Even if you think they are a little "OFF".

[M-Rex]

Quote:
Spoken by Coronach:

It's worth nothing that everyone here is, as usual, going automatically with the worst-case scenarios


This is the best answer I've seen to all of this. We've seen edited videos from the press, who we constantly rip into as being innacurate. We constantly attack the press as being sensational.

When did we decide to take everything the press does as gospel?

I suspect when this is all over you won't be able to find a single NO resident
that had their firearms taken without justification that would have existed even outside of an emergency.

I had to leave one forum I USED to frequent because of all the "calling for the head" of NRA, GOA, FEMA, NOPD, whoever. Funny now that the stories begin to come out, turns out there was nothing there.

Most important lesson to learn here?

As usual, don't trust the press. We should have known that all along.

Excellent point. It hadn't occurred to me. +1 TexasSIGman.

[50 Freak]

I don't know about that. You'd have to be an editing magician to cut and paste the fact the CHP were in a ladies house after she told them to leave then tackled, disarmed and escorted her off her property. Seemed pretty clear cut to me. They shouldn't have been there the minute she told them to leave.

I think when the dust settles, there are going to be more stories of gun confiscations happening.

Pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.

[torpid]

I think when the dust settles, there are going to be more stories of gun confiscations happening.

And they will very likely be disputed, disbelieved, and rationalized away.

:(

[Sam]

"houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered? Not very likely in a town with no power.
If your bud is there and isn't stopping it, he is part of it. Unless someone else was holding him at gunpoint to keep him out of it, your bud is now a bad guy. Time to get new friends.

Sam

[50 Freak]

And they will very likely be disputed, disbelieved, and rationalized away.

More likely, "all those people were "delusional" and we removed their guns because we thought they would harm themselves, beside, it was for our safety".

[Daniel T]

And they will very likely be disputed, disbelieved, and rationalized away.

Look, it's started already. See: Post #39 and #53.

[another okie]

My BS meter went off when the original post claimed the CHP was "federalized." The earlier reports said they were sworn in as La. State Troopers, which seems much more likely. The feds are pretty reluctant to give people shiny little federal badges. At any rate FEMA is not a police agency.

[XavierBreath]

1) The CHP is under no orders to confiscate legally owned firearms, infact later that day they encountered houses full of guns and wished the residents well. They are not disarming people withought other extenuating circumstances.Then how do you explain thier actions?

2) The CHP is under orders to remove people from the area designated for MANDATORY evacuation. This is ostentiobly a legal act, authority to do so has been grated and the CHP is taking orders from the NO State Police who are under the Governor, who is under the direction of FEMA. They have been Federalized, and the feds may mandate an evac. It is not clear if they are infact FORCING people to leave, or entering and "STERNELY ADVISING" them that they are to leave.Where is the authority for a mandatory evacuation? Don't try to cite E. coli or West Nile, these are not valid reasons. What are the reasons?

3) Houses will be entered if the doorbell is answered or if the door is open. If the door is closed and knocks are not answered they are moving onSorry, video shows otherwise. Battering rams and prybars are being used.

4) The issue of the old lady is still cloudy. However, HER DOOR WAS OPEN, so the CHP entered her house. We did see her sweep the cameraman with her revolver. It is not clear wether she pointed it at the cops or not, nor is it clear how in command of her faculties she was. In any event, she was NOT left defenseless, but evacuated. I do not know if she was arreasted or merely sent on her way, this is where the cell connection got spotty and dropped.I saw her sweep nobody with her gun, and in fact I do not believe her door was open. She seemed quite coherent and emphatically asked her home invaders to leave the premises.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28762&stc=1

Your CHP friend needs to gather up his buddies and go back to Kalifornia. It's easy to mug old women with no resources. When they try to do this in the Garden District, to well heeled and armed attorneys, they may have a very different result.

Louisiana does not need this kind of help. Go home CHP! :cuss:

[50 Freak]

Louisiana does not need this kind of help. Go home CHP!

Actually I'm a Californian and I can say "I SURE AS HELL DON'T WANT THEM BACK HERE". If they're so eager to kick in door and confiscate guns....Send them to IRAQ!!!!

They'd probably get fragged by their own guys anyways. :evil: :evil:

[Derby FALs]

Actually I'm a Californian and I can say "I SURE AS HELL DON'T WANT THEM BACK HERE". If they're so eager to kick in door and confiscate guns....Send them to IRAQ!!!!

+1 :D

[LawDog]

Times-Picaynue, Saturday, September 10, 2005, bottom of page A-9 (http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrina/pdf/091005/9.pdf)

Knee-deep in melted clocks, scribes paint Dali landscape

Pencil behind ear, and .38 on hip

By Chris Rose
Columnist

You hear the word "surreal" in every report from this city now. There is no better word for it.

If Salvador Dali showed up here, he wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of it. Nobody could paint this.

He did that famous painting of the melting clock, and our clocks melted at 6:45 the morning of Aug. 29. That's what the clocks in the French Quarter still say. That's when time stood still.

The Quarter survived all this; you've probably heard that much. Most of what remains unscathed - and I'm using a very relative term here - is a swath of dry land from the Riverbend through Audubon Park, down St. Charles and Tchoupitoulas to the Quarter and into the Bywater.

It's like a land mass the size of Bermuda, maybe, but with not so many golf courses.

There are other dry outposts in the great beyond - little Key Wests across the city - but I haven't seen them.

The weather is beautiful, I don't mind telling you. But if I wrote you a post card, it wouldn't say, "Wish You Were Here."

There are still hearty rose bushes blooming on front porches, and there are still birds singing in the park. But the park is a huge National Guard encampment.

There are men and women from other towns living there in tents and who have left their families to come help us and they are in the park clearing out the fallen timber. My fellow Americans.

Every damn one of them tells you they're happy to be here (despite what you've heard, it still beats the hell out of Fallujah), and every time I try to thank them, on behalf of all of us, I just lose it. I absolutely melt down.

There is nothing quite as ignominious as weeping in front of a soldier.

This is no environment for a wuss like me. We reporters go to other places to cover wars and disasters and pestilence and famine. There's no manual to tell you how to do this when it's your own city.

And I'm telling you: It's hard.

It's hard not to get crispy around the edges. It's hard not to cry. It's hard not to be very, very afraid.

My colleagues who are down here are warriors. There are a half-dozen of us living in a small house on a side street Uptown. Everyone else has been cleared out.

We have a generator and water and military food rations and Doritos and smokes and booze. After deadline, the call goes out: "Anyone for some warm brown liquor?" And we sit on the porch in the very, very still of the night and we try to laugh.

Some of these guys lost their houses - everything in them. But they're here, telling our city's story.

And they stink. We all stink. We stink together.

We have a bunch of guns, but it's not clear to me if anyone in this "news bureau" knows how to use them.

The California National Guard came by and wanted an accounting of every weapon in the building and they wrote the serial numbers down and apparently our guns are pretty rad because they were all cooing over the .38s.

I guess that's good to know.

The Guard wanted to know exactly what we had so they would be able to identify, apparently by sound, what guns were in whose hands if anything "went down" after dark here at this house.

That's not so good to know.

They took all our information and bid us a good day and then sauntered off to retrieve a dead guy on a front porch down the street.

Then the California Highway Patrol - the CHiPs! - came and demanded we turn over our weapons.

What are you going to do? We were certainly outnumbered, so we turned over the guns. Then, an hour later, they brought them back. With no explanation.

Whatev. So here we are. Just another day at the office.

Maybe you've seen that Times-Picayune advertising slogan before: "News, Sports and More."

More indeed. You're getting your money's worth today.

LawDog

[Hawkmoon]

They are however NOT entering when the door is closed and goes unanswered. (remenber, this is just the 100person CHP team I have information on. We have video of others breaking down doors.)
So, like, are they entering if someone answers the door and says "Stay the h*ll out of my house"? That doesn't sound a lot to me like permission to enter has been granted.

Remember all those discussions we've had about trespass. Once the custodian of a premises tells you to leave, you are no longer there legally if you remain. The lady told them to get out -- instead of getting out, they gang tackled her.

This is hardly "Monday morning quarterbacking." This is recorded, documented fact.

[donkee]

Anti personnel mines, there may be a big demand for them in NOLA soon. I wouldn't shed a tear for a single one of those pansies that would wrestle an old woman to the ground and drag her out of her house. Getting more po'd every time I think about it. :fire:

[Pilgrim]

CHP may not be under orders to do so but The Times Picayune newspaper of New Orleans says that CHP officers ARE confiscating weapons.
I wonder if the Chippie who shot "Buddy" the deer is with them.

Buddy was a community pet up around Coarsegold or Oakhurst, CA. There was a traffic accident and Buddy came along, obviously trying to see if he could bum a treat off the people. The CHP officer handling the traffic accident decided that Buddy was a threat to the public and gunned Buddy down with his .40 pistol.

The threats leveled against the officer were so bad and so many the CHP had to transfer the officer to an unknown station and help him sell his house, buying it at fair market value if necessary.

Pilgrim