Heads up - History Channel tonight, 9/13/05


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Preacherman
September 13, 2005, 08:53 PM
At 9 p.m. Eastern time, the History Channel series "Shootout!" is looking at the North Hollywood bank robbery, where two felons with full-auto weapons pinned down dozens of L.A. police for an hour or two. Might be worth watching.

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Steam dragon
September 13, 2005, 09:36 PM
Saw it about 6 months ago.
At least I think it is the same show.

A DEFINATE must see, if you haven't yet.


First rule in a gunfight, Bring a gun. Second rule, Bring ENOUGH gun! :D

dolanp
September 13, 2005, 10:00 PM
Thanks for the heads up, just tuned in.

HighVelocity
September 13, 2005, 10:11 PM
Got it on now. Thanks

KONY
September 13, 2005, 10:12 PM
Just tuned in myself. Thanks! :cool:

dolanp
September 13, 2005, 10:19 PM
".223 armor-piercing" AKs.. hmm interesting.....

Since when has any rifle round not been 'armor-piercing' really.

RoyG
September 13, 2005, 10:21 PM
".223 armor-piercing" AKs.. hmm interesting.....

You beat me to it.

I guess History Channel can't afford to pay for fact checkers.

RRTX
September 13, 2005, 10:27 PM
I'm watching it now, there is some pretty bad info being tossed around :banghead:

Thrash1982
September 13, 2005, 10:31 PM
I'm watching it now also. Normally the History channel is much better about gun facts. I'm rather disappointed.

HighVelocity
September 13, 2005, 10:37 PM
I swear I heard the narrator say SWAT had M15's

Avenger29
September 13, 2005, 10:51 PM
What I heard was that the cops were using civilian AR-15's from a local gunstore after they discovered their 9mm's were bouncing off the robbers' armor.

A curious thing that the narrarator said M-15. I have heard at least two or three text refrences from different sources designating Armalite built AR-15s as M-15s. Whats up with that?

And an FBI agent that wrote a book about bank robberies said that the robbers in the NH incident used AK-74's with drum mags, but he did not state the caliber.

LaEscopeta
September 14, 2005, 08:51 AM
I understand this incident has been discussed to death, but I missed all that. I just have two quick questions:

1. Does anyone think the robbers could have gotten away if did something differently, instead of just standing their and spraying bullets? (i.e. gotten to their car and driven off.) Or was the police helicopter already there when they left the bank?

2. Iím not sure how much of the show was film from the actual event, and how much was reenactment, but any idea why the robbers were standing so upright and moving so slowly? Was the home-made body armor too heavy/constricting? Were they psycho/stupid/hopped up on pills?

The main thing I got from the show was the difference between knowing firearms and knowing how to use them. The robbers knew how to select powerful weapons, some of which they modified to make more effective, and matched them with the most destructive ammo available. For all practical purposes they were armed as well as they could be. But apparently they were just spraying bullets in the general direction of where they though a threat was. When they chanced to hit someone, they were not well placed shots; 17 people hit, no fatalities. When they succeeded in driving the cops back, they didnít move to take advantage of it. Having a first class firearm you donít know how to use doesnít help you much; it is much better to have a second rate gun you know how to use.

ny32182
September 14, 2005, 09:26 AM
I missed the "Shootout" production :( I've liked all of them so far, so it will be a shame if this one isn't up to par with the others.

I remember the "44 minutes" made for TV antigunfest on FX a while back, and the guys they interviewed for that, who supposedly were actually there, made a point of "you know the sound of a full auto 7.62x39 AK if you've ever been to Vietnam... 7.62x39 AK this, and 7.62x39 AK that." They made a point that they were x39s.

However. I've also read numerous accounts that state in addition to their primary use of AK's, they also made sparing use of a Bushmaster 5.56mm, and an HK-91 type .308. I'm beginning to think that no one really knows what they used at all.

They were covered in vests, and cut up vests on their legs, sides, etc. Certainly this did restrict their movement, and they did just stand fully out in the open. No effort was made e by them to take cover, and they didn't hit much of anything that they were shooting at. Could they have gotten away? Who knows. They didn't even try to get away until they had half the LE resources in Kali surrounding them. One thing they had working slightly against them was that a normal beat patrol cop saw them on the sidewalk outside the bank, and had an armed robbery response in progress right as they walked through the door.

LaEscopeta
September 14, 2005, 10:51 AM
I remember the show last night saying they had 4 rifles:
- 2 AK-47s with full auto, with stick magazines and home made or home modified drum magazines, at least one of which they carried into the bank.
- A Bushmaster? ďM-16Ē .223 caliber, illegally modified for full auto (carried into bank? in the car?)
- Some sort of .308 caliber rifle, not full auto, in the trunk of the car.

It also said they each had a 9 mm Berretta handgun.

They showed footage from a helicopter of one of the robbers very deliberately taking the .308 from the trunk, cocking it and firing it. Donít know if was actual or reenactment, but he looked liked he was just calmly taking shots at the range.

ny32182
September 14, 2005, 10:53 AM
I've also heard that they were indeed on some form of nerve calming drugs during the entire event.

armoredman
September 14, 2005, 11:33 AM
If they had had the slightest idea of what to do with the weapons and armor they had, a great number of people, LE and civilian, would have been dead. We can only thank the Good Lord above that these idiots were completely incompetant.

TonyB
September 14, 2005, 11:38 AM
The whole thing is an example of why we NEED to practice head shots..... ;)

Stickjockey
September 14, 2005, 12:07 PM
You mean the History Channel aired a show that had nothing to do with Nazis?

Amazing. ;)

atblis
September 14, 2005, 12:13 PM
G3 stolen from the Mexican Army (so I've heard).

El Tejon
September 14, 2005, 02:44 PM
History Channel=Hitler Channel. :D

Bad info for the HC. Let's write in and see if we can get THR to do their fact checking. :D

Morgan
September 14, 2005, 03:08 PM
They also stated that the AK47 fired .223 "armor-piercing" ammo.

Well... An AK74 maybe, but I understood they were 47's. And armor-piercing? No more than any other rifle.

This show was certainly not as good as the prior one on Iraq.

kbr80
September 14, 2005, 03:19 PM
they also said, ak 47's were terrorist technology, that about made me spit my coffee all over my cat.

bratch
September 14, 2005, 04:07 PM
Does anybody know the truth? Since all the weapons were left on scene it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

The did say M-15 assualt rifles. And repeatedly mentioned them having AK-47 in .223. Also said they had a HK91.

Whats the story on the AKs? Were they 47s in 7.62 or 74s in 5.XX?

iiiwew
September 14, 2005, 04:28 PM
I followed this pretty closely when it happen and as I recall the reports were the AK types they were using were semiauto AK(M?)'s that had illegally been converted to fully auto with caliber being 7.62x39mm.
Probably the Chinese clones.
Some reports said they were using amor piercing ammo.
The things that stands out to me is that with all the ammo spent by both sides that the only two killed were the bad guys and one by his own hand and that one good guy with my scoped Contender Carbine in 223 Remington could have ended this soon after it started.
It gets back to it is not how much lead you put down range but where you put it.

Otherguy Overby
September 14, 2005, 04:45 PM
North Hollywood is lucky the bandits had full auto.

So is Southern California.

If the bandits didn't have full auto, the LAPD and others wouldn't have had to keep their heads down. If they would have been able to return fire, in their usual manner, the cops there would have shot holes in everything and everybody all the way to Tijuana.

boing
September 14, 2005, 05:03 PM
IIRC, they did in fact use armor piercing rifle ammunition, with steel penetrators. I can't remember where I saw/heard the reference, but the distinction was specifically made between standard ball and the armor piercing rounds used by the bad guys.

"Shootout" is more than a little too melodramatic for me, but then most of the history/learning/discovering-type shows are these days.

grnzbra
September 14, 2005, 06:01 PM
I haven't seen it but have been recording the series. From the comments you guys are making, I think I'll just erase all of it, since I now have no confidence in the accuracy of any of it.

realmswalker
September 14, 2005, 07:08 PM
North Hollywood is lucky the bandits had full auto.

So is Southern California.

If the bandits didn't have full auto, the LAPD and others wouldn't have had to keep their heads down. If they would have been able to return fire, in their usual manner, the cops there would have shot holes in everything and everybody all the way to Tijuana.

I find this statement to be ignorant and ridiculous. They were LUCKY? I don't think the word lucky should ever be used when describing that event, it was tragic. And if you ever get in a shootout and the BG doesnt have a full auto weapon, let's see if you follow your own advice and don't keep your head down.

As for the cop bashing about shootouts, until you have been in any situation where you are in a firefight, do not bash.

On a side note, the two BG's in the shootout were my uncles next door neighbors.

Delmar
September 14, 2005, 07:25 PM
"Does anyone think the robbers could have gotten away if did something differently"

It might have been possible, but recall that before starting this robbery, both of them partook of phenobarbital-that is one big stop sign! They called it a muscle relaxer, but the VA prescribed some of that for me one time, and it is certainly a muscle relaxer-more like muscles are taking a nappie!

The other thing which brought them to the shootout was pure coincidence. Two uniforms driving by saw them fully armed and headed for the bank. If they had not been seen, they might have had the 8 minutes, give or take to do what they started.

demusn1979
September 14, 2005, 07:26 PM
armalite ar15=m15! :scrutiny:

Fletchette
September 14, 2005, 07:33 PM
You mean the History Channel aired a show that had nothing to do with Nazis?

Amazing.

I thought they did mention the BATF...

Jeff Timm
September 14, 2005, 07:53 PM
Two things they did make clear. The perps were arrested two years earlier for illegal possession of weapons, one was a convicted felon, and then the Police gave them the weapons BACK! Including one which had been converted to full auto.

<Insert conspiracy theory here>

Geoff
Who thinks police in CA should have been investigated, too many strange releases of criminals or allowing criminals to buy guns despite convictions. :uhoh:

SB88LX
September 14, 2005, 10:00 PM
SWAT had M15's (http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2200/2209.htm) . I knew .45 was uber deadly. SWAT finally ditched the pea-shooter MP5s for the super stockless SBR

longhorngunman
September 14, 2005, 10:39 PM
If the two dimwits hadn't taken the muscle relaxers they would have probably made a easy getaway. Watching the actual footage they showed was downright funny. The way the two thugs just walked around in no hurry, get in car, wait, get out, calmly open the trunk. Yeah, those muscle relaxers definetly relaxed their muscles and that apparent dim light bulb between their shoulders. :rolleyes: Good grief! 1100 rounds fired and they didn't kill anybody! These boys definetly weren't from Texas. :neener:

Otherguy Overby
September 15, 2005, 04:25 PM
sarcasm from me:
If the bandits didn't have full auto, the LAPD and others wouldn't have had to keep their heads down. If they would have been able to return fire, in their usual manner, the cops there would have shot holes in everything and everybody all the way to Tijuana.

LAPD has had a lot of bad shootings. Sheesh, recently they even participated in a televised circular firing squad. I recall they fired something like 120 or more rounds. I think they had a less than 10% hit rate if you didn't add in all the dwellings hit and the officer wounded by their "friendly" fire.


I find this statement to be ignorant and ridiculous. They were LUCKY? I don't think the word lucky should ever be used when describing that event, it was tragic. And if you ever get in a shootout and the BG doesnt have a full auto weapon, let's see if you follow your own advice and don't keep your head down.

Regarding your attack the messenger, instead of the message strategy: please let me remind you that the LAPD has gone through repeated cycles of corruption since at least prohibition time. The somewhat recent Ramparts corruption was especially heinous.

Lastly, please don't forget how the LAPD responded to the Rodney King verdict riots, they didn't show up.

MechAg94
September 15, 2005, 05:37 PM
Well, for those who have not practiced with their pistols beyond 20 yards, it ain't that easy unless you practice. I doubt those cops had practiced at that range. Even 40 yards can make a huge difference. Head shots with a pistol are fine at short range, but if you can do it consistently at 50 yards or more, you are a better shot than I am. Revolvers may be better, but I doubt they were aiming carefully under fire.

I understand the LAPD has acquired AR-15's since then. That should help a lot in situations like that.

bad LT
September 15, 2005, 05:37 PM
I believe that the 308 ammo for the HK-91 contained armor piercing bullets pulled from AP 30/06 ammo. That would be true AP ammo.
(Someone correct me if I am wrong please)

However, any decent rifle bullet (30/06, 7.62x39, 30/30, etc.) will go through soft body armor like it were swiss cheese. Simple physics shows this to be the case. If this is what they were refering too then all rifle ammo is armor piercing. :banghead:

bill2
September 15, 2005, 07:38 PM
What exactly is armour piercing ammo? How is it different from regular ball ammo, for example the 55 grain stuff I buy for in bulk for my Armalite .223 (also knows labelled by Armalite as an M-15)?

How much armor will it actually go through?

And for the purpose of penetrating vests, do you need armour piercing or is the velocity/power of a rifle cartridge sufficient in itself?

What would a shotgun slug had done to the bad guys if one of the cops had shot them in the vest?


Oh, Othereguy - the shootout you mentioned in LA with the 120 rounds fired was handled by the LA county sherriff's office, I believe.


thanks

longhorngunman
September 15, 2005, 08:40 PM
Bill2, I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But from what I understand basically any FMJ spitzer type bullet that impacts the armor at 2000fps or faster will penetrate regular body armor. I've heard and read of instances like in Iraq where our soldiers have "stopped" hi-power rifle rounds with their armor, but they use ceramic or steel plate inserts for this kind of protection. Most handguns cartridges are only around 1000fps or slightly more, and they use bigger bullets which requires more energy to "slip through" body armor. As the old saying goes "Don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight". ;)

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