[Amadeus]

Without this turning into a caliber war (please please) what qualities does the 9mm have that make it an effective stopper? And I'm not just talkin' 9mm pistols with high capacity. I am referring to the round itself. Why is it a good defense round?

Come on, gang. Wax positive on the 9mm. If possible!

[TonyB]

It's a low recoil round,which makes it easy to shoot...therefore you'll practice more and we all know shot placement is #1....I know I wouldn't want to get shot with one. :D
the stats on 9mm +p's are pretty impressive(of course I have no link to back this statement up right now)
are there better SD rounds,sure,but 9mm is more than acceptable IMO.

[mete]

Not the best with FMJ but with JHP will perform OK.

[Dr.Rob]

What is the sound of a dead horse being beaten?

This ''discussion" has been going on since 1908 or so... the 9mm is just fine when dressed in modern hollowpoints... and was designed 'across the pond' in a place where very few people rode horses to work.

It was and is however, a lot of 'pop' in a relatively small package, esp. with today's metallurgy. Of course a smaller package means more recoil... but in a full sized pistol like a BHP/Glock/CZ recoil is very manageable.

The biggest reason cops switched to 9mm was capacity, you really shouldn't ignore that fact. Compared to a similar size/wieght .38 or .45 a 9mm has twice as many bullets and is still very lethal.

And a really good reason to choose a 9mm... is the staggering number of firearms chambered for it compared to other autoloaders... everything from pocket guns to 100 shot pistols are out there...

9mm might be a compromise, but it's an effective one.

[Amadeus]

This ''discussion" has been going on since 1908 or so...

Perhaps you're correct. Since we have to justify the 9mm so much, maybe it is time for the little thumper to just go away for good.

[kbr80]

9mm is just fine as a combat/SD weapon. It has a track record of dropping folks for about as long, maybe longer, than the 45. Just ask any soldier that was in WW2 if a 9mm would ruin your day.

[1911Tuner]

Though not a great fan of the 9 Parabellum, I have to give the devil his due.
Energy and velocity levels that beat the .38 Special +p loadings...Low recoil...
Good penetration...Small, high-quality, easy totin' pistols that take it. Wide availability...Many very good hollowpoint designs to choose from as well as bullet weights...Did I mention pretty cheap to shoot if you go with the bargain hardball ammo that's out there? Okay...Cheap shootin'.

Would I choose a 9mm? Probably not. Would I lack confidence if that was all I had? No. 2 or 3 well-placed 9mm rounds will completely wreck your day.

[Hawken50]

what qualities does the 9mm have that make it an effective stopper?
how about the fact that it's a f*** of alot better than having nothing when you're getting stabbed to death by a crackhead.

[Lone Star]

Well, you could go to: www.gunweek.com and click on the Sept. 10 cover story, and read my article on my son using a Browning Hi-Power with FMJ loads in Iraq. I think that will give you more confidence in the 9mm, even in military form. He put down eight men with it, and none complained that it wasn't effective. Hits do have to be in a suitable area, but that's largely true with any cartridge. The late David W. Arnold told me that the 9mm was usually quite effective in the Rhodesian bush war. As a police administrator, he was in a position to know.

I use JHP's in my CZ-75, but those weren't available to Spook (see the story) , and he got by quite well.

Lone Star

[Dr.Rob]

I know that it can penetrate 12 or more inches of deer, through a rib, muscle and hide, deflate both lungs and leave a quarter sized 'hamburger' hole through the heart only to stop an inch deep in the off shoulder.

9mm FEG Hi-Power 115 gr Winchester Silver Tip.

Anyone who had seen that wouldn't call that a 'wimp' round.

[shield20]

When it got popular here in the '80s it was soon found to be a bit wanting and overated. Now, though, ammo design has caught up with the hype, and made it a viable defense round. Not my 1st choice - still not thrilled depending on magic bullets to make it effective or trying to weed thru the different choices of bullet weights/pressures because none is a clear-cut performer - but it would be a better choice then .380 in a small concealed piece (if you could handle the recoil).

[Thin Black Line]

Lone Star,

Great Article!

Here's a direct link: http://www.gunweek.com/0910issue/feature0910.html

[Amadeus]

Energy and velocity levels that beat the .38 Special +p loadings...Low recoil...

it can penetrate 12 or more inches of deer, through a rib, muscle and hide, deflate both lungs and leave a quarter sized 'hamburger' hole through the heart only to stop an inch deep the off shoulder

Thank you Dr. Rob and 1911Tuner. These are the kind of statements I was seeking. Based on this responses I really should have named this the "sh*t I've seen 9mm do" thread.

[Lone Star]

Thin Black Line-

Thanks so much! But if you go directly to the article, you miss the photo of the Pesh on the truck with the RPK, one of the best photos in the story, which is why they used it for the cover.

Again, thanks. I appreciate the compliment.

Lone Star

[ravencon]

While a 9mm is not generally my first choice when I select a gun for CC. Nevertheless, based on its performance with quality HP ammo, I don't feel inadequately armed when I do carry it.

Perhaps the occassion that I am most inclined to carry it is hiking trails near suburban areas where the risk of encountering a pack of feral or semi-feral dogs is highest. Then I find comfort in the high capacity magazines and the ability to get back on target quickly under stress, especially where the target will be fairly small and quick.

Fortunately, I've never had to shoot a dog in such circumstances. But I came close when I encountered two large, unattended and aggressive dogs in the woods. Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing, but I had the uncanny sense that if I hadn't drawn down on the leader they would have attacked. My pistol was a very comforting companion on that occassion.

[Mulliga]

9mm used to be enough power, until the Internet came into being. :neener:

[PCRCCW]

"9mm used to be enough power, until the Internet came into being. :neener: "

Amen, DoubleAmen, TripleAmen................. :rolleyes:

Shoot well.

[ABBOBERG]

Don't try this at home because of ricochet's, but I shot .32 acp, .380 acp and 9mm (all WWB) into 1/2" thick polycarbonate (plexiglass). The .32 and .380 put slight dents in the surface and the 9mm burned right through and buried itself 1/2" into the oak stump I had as backup.

[Dr.Rob]

I 'finished off a deer' with mine... Stepehen Camp has hunted deer with a 9mm.

Not the first choice I'd pick as a 'hunting arm' but with good placement it's a killer.

[Rob1035]

For me, its an easy choice. I'm a poor college student, yet I'd like to have something adequate for self/home defense. I also enjoy shooting, and if (God forbid) I ever have to fire in anger, I'll be much more comfortable with a round that I've be able to afford to shoot frequently and practice and train with.

9mm is a clear winner for a centerfire pistol cartridge in:
-Cost
-Availability
-shootability (debatable)
-Capacity (debatable)
-Performance (highly debatable)

[dissident]

My solution... own both.

When I get the money... for now it's the 9mm, because the ammo is cheap, can be found at any wal-mart, thus I can practice with it, and practice makes perfect.


I recently ordered several boxes of this (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept_id=201006&sku=AMM-407&imgid=&mscssid=H0WH40N78CUB9N3B4CD3GF4HSJR97NR7) for my good defensive ammo as well... with 15 in the clip, I'm certain that I will be able to address any situation that might occur.

I've also got a 20 gauge combat style shotgun with plenty of number 3 buckshot for home defense... I'll take that before any pistol.

[dolanp]

Fares as well or better than .45 with the right ammo, and you get more rounds, so what's not to like?

Oh yeah and cheap practice ammo.

[albanian]

"I 'finished off a deer' with mine... Stepehen Camp has hunted deer with a 9mm."

Lets clear something up, Mr. Camp lives in Texas and hunts Texas sized deer. 9mm would probably not be enough for our bigger northern deer. I live in Indiana and although 9mm is legal to hunt deer with, I would only do it if I had a doe permit and made the shot at close range. Texas deer are about the size of a starved German Shepard. :neener:

Seriously, Mr. Camp has done some great hunting with the 9mm and seem to think it is okay for pigs and jackrabbits. I don't think he recomends it for deer but he has killed them with it.

The reason 9mm is a good round is because it is faster than most and penetrats more than most. A 9mm is faster than a .45acp and will go through more flesh. This not always what you want but sometimes it is what you REALLY need. That is why 9mm has stayed around for so long. It works better than some cartridges in some situation and some cartridges work better in others. That is why the .45acp is still around. 9mm will be better under some circunstances and .45acp will be better in others. It is not an either or type of question. I am not trying to turn this into a caliber war but I needed to use the .45 as an example of a slow heavy caliber.

[KONY]

9mm used to be enough power, until the Internet came into being.

+1 ... Classic! :p

[Tom Servo]

From the article:
knows what some of the gun magazine chest-beaters claim in print, and admits that he hasn’t shot any blocks of ballistic gelatin. He has shot eight men with the nine, though, and all went down with center thorax hits. One or two shots sufficed, if well placed.
So, the "9mm vs. .45" debate is now officially OVER!!! :neener:

I've spoken to several folks who have had to use the venerable Parabellum in self-defense, and it's never failed any of them. The beefy .45 is just for guys who have to, um...compensate.

(Don't get all worked up--half my guns are .45s, so I'm half-compensating!)

[MDG1976]

Corbon 9mm 125gr JHP: 1250 fps; 434 ft/lbs. 17+1 in my PX4. 'Nuff said.

[Amadeus]

Corbon 9mm 125gr JHP: 1250 fps

Am I reading this right? That sounds like it would rival/mimic the performance of the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Yes? No?

[CZF]

What the freakin 45 o philes tend to miss is the fact that outside of the USA
very few people use 45 ACP unless they are well off and can afford to buy ammo and 1911s. South Africa is known for it's .45 shooters. They are the
guys out scrounging the range for brass.

The ACP has a colourful history, just not the optimum caliber for overseas work.some folks are even restricted to caliber and ammo,,having no choice
in the matter.

A Cz75 or in the case of the article a P-35 is what you will find to be a common handgun. Your Glocks are found in 9mm and in one case that i know of are refurbed USA police trade-ins.

Alot of folks think that Shot Placement is paramount to caliber. I was once
a 45 freak but a man named Marshall opened my eyes abit. The +P+ 9mm
loads started dropping bad guys left and right!

Modern bullet technology has improved the 9mm to
be an adequete round in the minds of many. Low recoil and
high capacity make it a favorite, whether on contract or
stateside.

Everyone has a favorite caliber. the 9mm just seems to get better each year.

[Rob1035]

Amadeus: Double Tap 125gr Gold Dot: Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
Muzzle Energy: 710 ft. lbs.

:cool:

[KevMorris]

Cheaper to practice with, a solid stopper with high quality self-defense ammo, easier to shoot with less recoil, quicker to get off well aimed 2nd and 3rd shots, and if you can get them, high capacity magazines. The 9mm is a winner.

Would love to get that Beretta 92 back that I sold years ago when money was tight.

[MDG1976]

Amedeus- Those specs are per Corbon's website (and the ammo's packaging)
Corbon 9mm (http://www.corbon.com/users/corbon/catalog.html?VCS=c100d6c18408801e487f0cfc27e6ec6a&Vl=50&Tp=2)

[Ky Larry]

Lots of very good weapons are chambered for 9mm. Ammo is available all over the world. Accurate. Reliable.Effective. Economical. If I couldn't have my Kimber Custom Defender II .45 ACP, I'd probably carry a 9mm CZ.

[Marshall]

I know that it can penetrate 12 or more inches of deer

In Oklahoma 9mm is illegal for hunting deer using a rifle or handgun. Too small.

[GunAdmirer]

I have done some extensive informal penetration and expansion tests with fmj and hp ammo and have no doubt the 9mm is more than adequate in most situations. Shot placement is key. I carry my 9mms with confidence. To each his own, but I would not want to be shot with any of the popular calibers!

I like it because it is inexpensive and widely available. I even reload it.

[GunAdmirer]

The 9mm round is underrated. I have done extensive informal penetration and expansion tests with fmj and hp ammo and have no doubt the 9mm is more than adequate in most situations. Shot placement is key. I carry my 9mms with confidence. To each his own, but I would not want to be shot with any of the popular calibers!

I like it because it is inexpensive and widely available. I even reload it.

[MachIVshooter]

9x19 is a good general purpose round, IMO. One that is jack of all trades, master of none. It is a good plinker, but more costly than .22. It is an adequate SD round, but not on par with 10mm/.45/.357 mag. It's primary attributes are the sheer number of guns chambered for it, coupled with being the least expensive centerfire pistol ammo out there. I own 7 9mm guns and shoot them all frequently. I have never fired at a human being, but they have killed many rabbits, praire dogs, etc. I keep a ton of 9mm FMJ ammo on hand because it is cheap and packs easy. In a SHTF scenario, 9mm would mostly be used as a suppression/cover round. More effective cartridges would be used when the threat is exposed.

I feel adequately armed carrying a 9mm, but much prefer my 10mm. At 791 ft/lbs, it is nearly double the power of a +P+ 9mm. I have developed 9mm loads that produce over 500 ft/lbs, but the only way to acheive such velocities was using 90 gr. JHP's, which are too lightly constructed to penetrate well at mach 1.5.

[johnster999]

9mm:

I carry it for defense. I shoot it for fun. It's made me a better shooter by being cheap to practice with.

999

[Colt]

What the freakin 45 o philes tend to miss is the fact that outside of the USA
very few people use 45... ACP

You're talking about me. I carry .45 ACP whenever possible.

BUT. I keep a 9mm in a lockbox in my truck, and another in my Bug-out-Kit for the simple reason that the ammo is so common and readily available. I also have some .45 ACP in the kit, but only a few boxes. If the SHTF to the point that we end up on foot, I can't carry much ammo of either caliber, but I will bring along the 9mm pistol for the simple reason that when we get to wherever we're going, it will likely be much easier/cheaper to restock on 9mm than .45ACP. (but I'm not going to pitch the .45 either!)

[Boss Spearman]

Actually, some of us here in the US cannot afford .45 acp either, not just elsewhere in the world.

I like .45s, but I can only afford to practice with .38special/.9mm most of the time. I cannot afford the higher calibers.

[AirForceShooter]

real world experience:
both the .45 and the 9mm will kill people.
both will stop people.
both are reliable.
there's nothing wrong with a 9mm. And if you're in a fire firgt the big mags do come in handy.
But I still like my .45 best.

AFS

[LeonCarr]

I shoot the 9mm most of the time. The #1 complaint I get from most .45 shooters is, "The bullwits cost too much". My best friend rants and raves about his 1911 .45, but almost everytime we go shoot, he brings a 9mm :).

By the way, I carry a 9mm, loaded with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ SXT, but I shoot all the 9mm Blazer I can get my hands on for practice.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Amadeus]

How does the 9mm perform as a stopper after passing through car glass (windshields, etc)?

[shield20]

SO how is the recoil on those 9s shooting +p+ ammo - does it get alot more intense? Does it start getting near typical standard .45 recoil?

[Newton]

To me it's still the best performance/recoil/cost/# of shots compromise out there.

A USP Compact loaded with Ranger T 127gr +P+ gives me 14 shots on tap, and the recoil and snap are still way less than .45ACP.

If I had to go into combat, 9mm would be my choice, capacity rules !

[LeonCarr]

shield20,

The 9mm +P+ ammo in a standard size handgun is not bad, about like shooting .38 +P in a 4" revolver. A little louder report, a little more muzzle rise, but little or no increase in felt recoil over standard pressure 9mm. In alloy frame or compact handguns, the 9mm +P+ will get your attention, but is still controllable with practice.

My everyday gun is a Glock 17, and +P+ ammo has a little more muzzle rise and louder report, but nothing else.

IMO 9mm +P+ is much more controllable than 230 ball .45.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Commissar Gribb]

In Oklahoma 9mm is illegal for hunting deer using a rifle or handgun. Too small.

wow! must not be a lot of legal calibers then! They go off bullet diameter right? then the obvious conclusion would be a load of other ammos would be illegal. Even big ones like 8mm mauser, 30 - 06, 7mm mag etc.

or do they go off grain weight?

[Dr.Rob]

Muzzle energy.

9mm isn't legal here in Colorado for big game. 41 mag, 44 mag 357 maximum etc are.

We have BIG deer here too.

I doubt ANY game warden would bust any of us for offering up a 'coup de grace' with any handgun we own... which is all I did with that deer, it was wounded and struggling and was kicking... wasn't sure I could hit it in the head the way it was moving to put it down, didn't want to shoot it with the rifle at point blank range. So I fired one 9mm through the boiler room and that was all it took.

[WarMachine]

Oh god, if it ain't the AWD vs. RWD debates on the car boards, it's the caliber debates on the gun boards :barf:

[agtman]

"I know that it can penetrate 12 inches or more of deer."

:what: Just curious, but in what state is it now legal to hunt deer with a 9mm pistol?

Must have been a very small deer. :scrutiny:

Are you certain you didn't mistake a dead poodle with fake horns for venison? Possibly some mischievous fratboys pulled a fast one on the good Doctor? Hmmm? :evil:

Of course, taking down 4-legged critters or 2-legged predators has never been a problem for the 10mm AUTO. :neener: :D

[1911Tuner]

T'was asked:

>Am I reading this right? That sounds like it would rival/mimic the performance of the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Yes? No?<
*************************

Well...Not the full-house 125 grain .357 loading, which advertises 1450 fps from a 4-inch barrel...and actually produces between 1380 and 1420, depending on the gun. I have a 4-inch 681 Smith that'll go 1420 and 1435 average for ten rounds with Federal and Remington respectively. When the same ammo is fired in my 3-inch M-13, those figures drop about 50 fps across the board with one HELLUVA muzzle blast. :eek:

125 at 1250 is on par with Remington's attenuated.357/125 loading that's advertised at 1280 fps from a 4-inch barrel...and probably averages about 1200 or so in the real world. I wouldn't exactly call that wimpy performance, but the exposed lead on the revolver bullet would probably tend to expand more violently, so the effectiveness of the 9mm round likely wouldn't be as dramatic in gelatin or wetpack newspaper. Then again...I've never been attacked by either of those.

[Caseless]

I concur the bigger calibers are more fun to shoot at the range, :D but wouldn't feel undergunned using a 9mm handgun at self defense range.

Barrier penetration capability, one shot stop caliber, etc. Such topics have nothing to do with self defense for a private citizen IMHO. :rolleyes:

[Rob96]

Stephen Camp also uses the 9mm for wild pigs. The 9mm, given good loadings, will anchor the bad guy. You just have to do your part. Many times it is the archer and not the arrow.

[Nematocyst]

The 9mm, given good loadings, will anchor the bad guy. You just have to do your part. +2.

Two words X 3: shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

9mm in head or center thorax = stop (at least).

Add 6 more (or less) = dead.

Insert #2 mag, ready for more.

[Thin Black Line]

9mm for Deer? Ok, maybe for the coup, but not the 1st hunting choice.
The deer here in MI would likely take it away from you and beat you down
with it --and that's just the Does :neener:

In all seriousness, I shot out a large buck's heart and a good portion of both
lungs with a 12g slug and the thing still ran 50 yds before he fell down dead.
Of course, I didn't realize this until after I butchered the deer. Amazing.
Someone find me an account of a human still doing that from a slug causing
similar damage. "Wow, he still got a gold medal after being shot!"

[Hellbore]

Some of you gun nuts give me gas. It's always the same arguments over and over. :cuss:

It seems some of you guys think that it takes a perfectly-placed shot to the eye with a tail-wind to stop someone with a 9mm whereas a .45 ACP shot to the hand will kill an attacker instantly.

This wins "most out of touch with reality" quote:

"Perhaps you're correct. Since we have to justify the 9mm so much, maybe it is time for the little thumper to just go away for good."

Keep telling yourself that as 9mm becomes even more widely used every day. 9mm is already the dominant caliber and it's not becoming any less so... :neener:

[Nematocyst]

TBL, that 50 yd sprint after a 12 ga. slug is not surprising.

Sometimes, it's not the force of the metal hitting tissue that stops movement, but the lack of O2. The slug disrupted heart muscle, which stopped the flow of blood to the leg muscles. But that leg muscle tissue still had enough O2 to allow contraction (= running) for another 150'. When that O2 was expended in generation of energy to run, THEN - and only then - did collapse occur.

You'll observe the same phenomenon in any vertebrate organism, including humans: even after a shot to the heart, expect another X yds and several seconds of fight (driven by adrenaline) before stoppage caused by O2 loss.

Plan accordingly.

[dogngun]

The comments about Internet crap are well founded and right on. The 9mm is an excellent defence/military handgun round and has been for almost 100 years. It's my preferred carry round for many reasons. It is controlable, very powerful and penetrating, available anywhere and cheap to practice with. The variety of guns designed for it is amazing, and many quality 9mm pistols are available used, so anyone can afford one.

Mark

[Nematocyst]

It is controlable, very powerful and penetrating, available anywhere and cheap to practice with. Well said. I agree.

My first handgun was a .38 revolver (a Taurus, purchased after some dude on {choose one or more} angel dust/meth tried to come in my window while i had only a baseball bat), but i wanted a semi-auto. (So fast, so sleek, so sexy...)

After some research, I decided on 9 mm for all the reasons stated above.

First came a S&W 3914. But, it was too large for my hand, resulting poor trigger pull,
uncomfortable shooting &, thus, poor groups.

Now, i'm on my second 9 mm, a Kahr K9, for all the reasons stated above.

Long live 9 mm.

[Double Naught Spy]

Have you not bothered to do ANY research prior to this post? You don't want to start any caliber wars, but you start off by incorrectly asking if the 9mm as an underdog or underpowered reject when it is neither. With about 100 years of history, the 9mm is anything but a reject. Given its potential for overpenetration, it is not underpowered.

Even more weird is that you want folks to wax positive about the 9mm. So you really don't want to know if it is an underdog or underpowered as you apparently are not actually looking for information. You just want some sort of pep talk to make you feel good about carrying the round. If you need a pep talk to make you feel good about carrying the round, then you really should consider carrying something else or learn to be a better shooter.

By the way, you will find quite a few sort of similar affirmations of the 9mm on various boards. You probably don't need a new one.

[1911Tuner]

I dunno Double Naught...I really didn't read that into his thread. Maybe more of a "Please tell me that I haven't made a huge mistake by choosing a 9mm."
Maybe he's read so much pro and con that he doesn't know WHAT to believe, and hoping that he can get enough straight answers on the "pro" side to
make him feel better about it because he's only got one pistol and can't afford to trade for another one. Since we don't know any of these things, we have to make some assumptions and respond to him in the same way as he posed his questions. In a factual and straightforward and honest manner and without making him feel like an idiot for not knowing. That's the High Road way... :cool:

[Thin Black Line]

LOL, find me an account of a human who got his heart turned to
hamburger and both lungs cut in half and still walked 5 yards. Ok,
I'll settle for sat down and smoked a cigarette.

[kbr80]

9mm is just fine for SD. I remember watching a LE video, years ago, out of Texas. A mexican, wired on cocaine, or some other superman drug, took 7 rounds center mass with a 45 ACP. He walked across the street, sat down, and it took him 30 minutes to die.


I will echo the advice from other members, pick a caliber, be it 9mm or whatever, practice, practice, and once you think you are good at putting the round where you want it to go, practice some more.


Shot placement is the key, it trumps everything else.

[HD]

you won't find a bigger 45 fan than myself , having said that my bedside gun is a cz p01 with wwb 147jhp's ...
it works , goes bang when it needs to and is cheap to shoot...
no great worries (short of a kodiak)the caliber works , btw i do know of a kodiak killed with a po8 and 124fmj ammo with one shot ...
downside was the bear died so fast it collasped on top of the shooter... :D :eek: :p
had to roll the bear off the kid before he smothered under 860 lbs of fat and hair ... :what: :D :neener:

[1911Tuner]

Hmmm...My "Nightlight" is a short-coupled 12 gauge double with exposed hammers...2-3/4 inch (24 pellets) magnum #4 buckshot in the tubes,
and four big male Collies to sound the second alarm...after the two Labs and the Pit outside provide first alert. :eek: :cool:

Any takers? :neener:

[MudPuppy]

So, the real discussion shouldn't be 9mm vs 45, rather 45 vs 12GA. With perspective, that 45 can seem a tad underpowered.

:neener:

Now that I've got my 44 magnum, I can look down my nose at those "wimpy" 45s. As I've said elsewhere, I'm looking to upgrade that to the 50AE so I can look down my nose at the wimpy 44 magnums.

Seriously, I think the 9mm is a viable choice with the proper ammunition selection and shot placement. It's not my first choice, but that doesn't mean its wrong. (and don't pay attention to the gun snobs!)

[Amadeus]

I really didn't read that into his thread. Maybe more of a "Please tell me that I haven't made a huge mistake by choosing a 9mm."


Thank you, to everyone for your responses. And thank you 1911Tuner for taking the "high road". Actually you're somewhat close to guessing my motivation. Allow me to divulge the motivation behind this thread.

After many years of shooting and teaching shooting I'm considering applying for CCW. I shoot .45. I love shooting .45. It knocks down steel plates with ease and blasts big holes in paper. My co-instructor loves .45. My shooting friends love .45. Everywhere I look within the shooting world people tell me .45 is the real shooter's round.

Moreover I love the ergonomics and appearance of a 1911. However, I don't completely trust my beloved 1911.

It's just a little too ammo sensitive and jams just a little too often. I have also discovered some other very subjective issues having to do with speed of presentation, disengagement of safety, and single handed follow up shots. So I think for MY CCW purposes, I will be better suited with a compact 9mm. Something along the lines of a Sig or HK (glocks don't fit my hand comfortably).

The problem is that I am wary about going back to 9mm. I've been fed a steady diet of .45 hype for long enough to begin believing that 9mm is .... well.... underpowered. So I look for some real answers from the wisdom of my high road family. I do so by asking what you folks have experienced with the round and why YOU feel good about it. Maybe your answers will allow me to see that 9mm is a decent round after all. Then again there is the chance that a good portion of you come back with a unanimous dislike for it. Either way my choice for .45 would be validated and confirmed. Or my confidence in 9mm would be raised.

Again. I thank everyone who has participated. Your wisdom and experience has been helpful.

[MachIVshooter]

Now that I've got my 44 magnum, I can look down my nose at those "wimpy" 45s. As I've said elsewhere, I'm looking to upgrade that to the 50AE so I can look down my nose at the wimpy 44 magnums.

Neither of which is a good defensive round. Bullets are just too heavily constructed. I own both (and a .454) and would never consider using them for SD/HD unless I had exhausted all of my 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .38, .357, etc. Same reason I don't use my .375 Ultra on deer.

[CAnnoneer]

Neither of which is a good defensive round. Bullets are just too heavily constructed. I own both (and a .454) and would never consider using them for SD/HD unless I had exhausted all of my 9mm, .40, .45, 10mm, .38, .357, etc. Same reason I don't use my .375 Ultra on deer.

So, what's the point of them then? Coolness factor? :p
I figured as much. :)
I believe two .22 holes are better than one 9mm, and two 9mm holes are better than one .45. :D

[Joe45acp]

If you want a to carry a 9mm ( I carry S&W 547 9mm as one of the guns on my CCW) I would use the Double Tap 147 grain load.

I also have on my permit my TR SP 1911A1 .45 acp and a 3" S&W model 66 357 mag. I never feel under powered with any of them. I love them all and know that if it comes down to needing them, any of them will do the job.

I carry the 9mm or the 357 most of the time and the 45 main in the cooler months.

Joe

[mondocomputerman]

I was at the indoor range last weekend and tried out some +p+ rounds (Winchester RA9TA Ranger Talon) for the first time. I didn't notice hardly any difference in recoil. It is a little louder. Compared to the winchester value pack FMJ's, the Ranger Talons had less muzzle flash. The Ranger Talons have MUCH less muzzle flash than some old Winchester Silvertip HP's I had from the 80's. Seems like they have improved their powders over the years.

[The_Antibubba]

Have you considered the .40? From what I hear, it's a very effective round,
and the pistols that use it are very similar (if not identical) to 9mm.

[sm]

Good shooters are made - not born - Fred Misseldine

1911Tuner, Dr, Rob and others have touched on this...

When assisting, teaching CCW folks, especially those new to firearms and not all were ladies... folks found the .40 cal very "sharp" in recoil.

We had a variety of guns, in various platforms, calibers, and included different stocks on the same gun. For example six Model 10s - exact, except for different stocks ( gun fit to shooter).

Many found the "push: of a .45ACP very easy to shoot, granted the ergos of the 1911 helped, then again the .45ACP round was also fired from Sigs, and Rugers too.

.38spls were often chosen as CCWs for reasons of being affordable due to used Police Trade ins, affordable ammo to practice with ( includes someone in family reloaded .38spl) , shome just shot a revolver better, others Budget again...no magazines and such to be dependent to have a gun run.

9mm : This round was a HUGE favorite! Used Police trade in 3913s were available then, extra mags, holsters too. Granted a lot of folks sure were spoiled by the BHPs we had...they shot the BHP very very well.

Now understand many of what I did was with new shooters in a special kind of way. Single Ladies of various ages, victims of Domestic Abuse, Rape Victims, or attepted, sexual assault.

Elderly Gentleman too, many older...fixed budgets...you get the idea.

Some got the revolver first up due to a need right then. The 9mm often was next gun...revolver for back up.

Glocks, Rugers, 3913s, in 9mm ...well whatever these folks found they shot best , could afford, by golly they shot extremly well with them! Affordable ammo, recoil magagment, allowed these folks to shoot and practice a LOT.

Some hated to admit they really liked the .45 but the ammo price difference...

I shushed them, these folks were being responsible and shooting and CCW-ing.

All it took was let them see the targets of the Weekend CCW-er with a gun he was afraid to carry for fear of getting scratched, in a sharp recoiling caliber , loading and/or one expensive and hard to get OTC.

Gimme one of my gals with used 3913 , Glock 26 and WWB Personal Defence Ammo any day. :D

[ChuckP]

At least for the 115 grain target grade stuff. Your choice of Winchester or CCI at that price. That's why I chose a 9mm (Taurus PT92) for my first handgun. Can get plenty of practice for small $$.

Think my next purchase may be .45ACP but for now I'm having a blast at the range with my little "popgun" with the 17 round magazines.

BTW: I keep a mag loaded with hollowpoints in my nightstand.

[spooney]

wow! must not be a lot of legal calibers then! They go off bullet diameter right? then the obvious conclusion would be a load of other ammos would be illegal. Even big ones like 8mm mauser, 30 - 06, 7mm mag etc.

or do they go off grain weight?


There are different rules for handgun chamberings and rifle chamberings. I believe the way it works for handguns is with cartridge length.

[Geno]

I would poll the military people who you know, specifically any who have experience with both 9mm and .45 ACP. Ask them what are their experiences, if they will talk.

Your statement regarding one-handed follow-ups clarifies for me why you do not pursue the .45 GAP.

I have another question though, and I suspect that 1911tuner might back me up here. Why not tune and properly time your 1911?

Part of the beauty of the 1911 is that it can be "tuned", it has timing, and when they all come together, it is one of the sweetest, most reliable rounds and firearm formats the world has ever witnessed. For that quicker follow-up, reduce the load, reduce the springs' poundage and have them all "tuned and timed", including the magazine springs. It all has to come together like a symphony. However, you also reduce the velocity, and ergo reduce the "knock-down power".

To the issue of the 9mm underpower issue, I think patrol120 clarified it best following his run-in with a rogue dog about 4 weeks back. Read his post regarding one-shot stops...they don't exist short of a head shot, and them, by no means could a 9mm be considered under-powered.

With the vast array of ammunition that we have today, we shootists can mix and match for any situation, a "Pow'r Ball" followed by a hollow point, followed by an FMJ if you want. We have ammo that will not exit drywall all the way to ammo that will exit darned near anything.

Having stated all of this, and me suspecting that you personally are aware of 100% of everything I have said, it all comes down to one issue: what are you comfortable with? Tradition and habit for you, for me, and for many others is the .45 ACP. We believe in big, heavy bullets. Others who were raised with the 9mm camp call us "pumpkin throwers". That's okay, I wouldn't want to be hit by a pumpkin anymore than I would want to be hit by a 9mm. Choices, choices.

For my part, I now carry both a 9mm and a .45 for CCW. The .45 is my primary, the 9mm is my secondary. I figure that one has big powerful hollow points for up close. The 9mm has massive rounds, up to magazines of 33 if I need in my G17.

The combination of .45 power and 9mm massive rounds, gives me AWESOME comfort.

Doc2005

[Grunt]

"I know that it can penetrate 12 inches or more of deer."

:what: Just curious, but in what state is it now legal to hunt deer with a 9mm pistol? :D


Actually, North Dakota is one (and we do have fairly large deer as well) though I think that's mainly a loop-hole in the law. The proclimation reads that a handgun firing a centerfire cartridge also used in rifles (you can read that as .44 mag, .357 mag, 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .38 Special, etc.) is legal to use for the harvesting of deer. Of course, I don't know of anybody that would go out hunting deer with only a 9mm pistol! Then again, ND is pretty lax about a lot of gun and hunting laws. There is no magazine limit (want to hunt deer with a belt fed semi-auto Browning 1919 or an AK with a 75 round drum? It's legal. :neener: ) Want to snipe deer at several hundred yards with a BTHP bullet (actually, that's what I prefer to do)? As long as it's not a FMJ projectile, that's legal too. :neener: Really, it's pretty simple, for rifles, any centerfire round over .22 caliber (they just passed a revision a couple years back saying you can't use .50 BMG anymore :( ), not full auto and not a FMJ or exploding round and in handguns, a cartridge that is also used in rifles and carbines are legal. Class III state, SBR's are no problem and a "shall issue" state as well. :neener:

Now as for my take on 9mm. In it's FMJ loads for defense, it's a POS fit for nothing more than punching paper or shooting varmints. With modern, well designed hollow points like the Cor-Bon ammo, it's a bit better. I prefer my .45 ACPs and .40 S&W handguns for carry but as long as good HP ammo is used, I don't have any problems with 9mm for defensive uses.

[Alan Fud]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33197&d=1135881891

[JRLaws]

There is a very helpful thread (for people like me) over at http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000581;p=1

Check out these 2 photos from that thread:

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

Please do read the thread as it will explain the pictures much better than I can.

JRLaws

[Pietro Beretta]

I hear this all the time. I am only 21 years of age, and have the firearms listed in my signature and I have heard/read at least a 100 of these conversations.

Honestly I dont know what to think.


I think all is a perfect choice, if you can shoot the caliber quick and accuratly

Choose what caliber you can shoot the best, then practice practice practice, and more practice, and even more practice. Between 357 9 40 and 45 They are all good self defence rounds. Dont feel outgunned by a 45 vs a 9mm., its all in you head fellas.


That is just my opinion though.

[ChCx2744]

If a BG was standing behind light cover and I was intent on dispatching him...I'm pretty sure the penetrating power and high capacity will do more than stop him. 9mm will get the job done; if it doesn't on the first try, it will on the 2nd, 3rd - > 18th :)

[jocko]

to post the 50 cal for size comparison also. Bigger hole is always better, but that being said I love my 9mm.s. I pocket carry 24/7 and my Kahr pM9 just fits oh so nice in my front pocket and doesnt attract any young girls either:neener::neener:

[jocko]

chcx2744. In reverse that bigger more powerful round you might be talking about in a crowded area might be a deterant to a passer-by who might be on the receiving end of a total pass thru from the BG. All kinds of scenarios,both pro and con for bigger is better or maybe not so much bigger is better...

[jocko]

Pietro: capeech my friend. You said it all but if we all adheared to what you said there would be no need for any gun forums.

but coming from a komifornia person, I also undersatnd. U guys arelucky to be able to even own a BB gun let alone a real gun..

have two brothers liveing there and I just feel so sorry for them!!!!

U see us ol Indiana boys , we get 4 seasons in one day, we can go in an buy damn near any gun we want and walk out with it and drive 10 miles and shoot it like we stole it.

Life is good.

smoke um if u got um...

[ericyp]

Well, the +p loads from doubletap send a 124 grain gold dot at over 1300 fps, which is close to some .357 mag hydra shok sold over the counter.

[woodybrighton]

Britsh army use the 9mm as do most European army's polices forces.
though they tend to use the hotter loads designed for open bolt smgs it kills people .

[ChCx2744]

ericyp said:
Well, the +p loads from doubletap send a 124 grain gold dot at over 1300 fps, which is close to some .357 mag hydra shok sold over the counter.

+1

Ditto :)