[onerifle]

...at least, practically speaking? After watching Bush's speech last night, as well as listening to all of the handwringing and whining, I'm thinking the pendulum will swing way too far in that direction in an effort to prevent another "sluggish Federal response" to another crisis, due to terrorism or natural disaster. Although I realize that aiding and rescuing civilians is not arresting them, public acceptance of the presence of the military to restore/provide 'law and order' could be the top of a slippery slope.

Ok, so maybe I have my tinfoil hat on...hey...it's Friday.... :neener:

[WT]

Posse Comitatus was never alive.

In the 130 years of its existance, no one has ever been prosecuted under the Posse Comitatus statute.

The US military has been used for enforce civil laws for many years.

[AirForceShooter]

it might be dying a slow death.
Watch and see what Bush proposes to the Congress after all the bad mouthing is over

AFS

[dolanp]

Well I am not sure how much of the current NG presence in LA is under federal authority, which is prohibited by Posse Comitatus, but I do know that state-controlled military forces are not bound by that law.

[MrTuffPaws]

If it was not dead before, it is dead now after the formation of the DHLS

[fedlaw]

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/17/D8CM6FB00.html

Military May Play Bigger Relief Role
Sep 17 2:59 PM US/Eastern


By ROBERT BURNS
AP Military Writer


WASHINGTON


President Bush's push to give the military a bigger role in responding to major disasters like Hurricane Katrina could lead to a loosening of legal limits on the use of federal troops on U.S. soil.

Pentagon officials are reviewing that possibility, and some in Congress agree it needs to be considered.

Bush did not define the wider role he envisions for the military. But in his speech to the nation from New Orleans on Thursday, he alluded to the unmatched ability of federal troops to provide supplies, equipment, communications, transportation and other assets the military lumps under the label of "logistics."

The president called the military "the institution of our government most capable of massive logistical operations on a moment's notice."

At question, however, is how far to push the military role, which by law may not include actions that can be defined as law enforcement _ stopping traffic, searching people, seizing property or making arrests. That prohibition is spelled out in the Posse Comitatus Act of enacted after the Civil War mainly to prevent federal troops from supervising elections in former Confederate states.

Speaking on the Senate floor Thursday, Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said, "I believe the time has come that we reflect on the Posse Comitatus Act." He advocated giving the president and the secretary of defense "correct standby authorities" to manage disasters.

Presidents have long been reluctant to deploy U.S. troops domestically, leery of the image of federal troops patrolling in their own country or of embarrassing state and local officials.

The active-duty elements that Bush did send to Louisiana and Mississippi included some Army and Marine Corps helicopters and their crews, plus Navy ships. The main federal ground forces, led by troops of the 82nd Airborne Division from Fort Bragg, N.C., arrived late Saturday, five days after Katrina struck.

They helped with evacuations and performed search-and-rescue missions in flooded portions of New Orleans but did not join in law enforcement operations.

The federal troops were led by Lt. Gen. Russel Honore. The governors commanded their National Guard soldiers, sent from dozens of states.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld is reviewing a wide range of possible changes in the way the military could be used in domestic emergencies, spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said Friday. He said these included possible changes in the relationship between federal and state military authorities.

Under the existing relationship, a state's governor is chiefly responsible for disaster preparedness and response.

Governors can request assistance from the Federal Emergency Management Agency. If federal armed forces are brought in to help, they do so in support of FEMA, through the U.S. Northern Command, which was established in 2002 as part of a military reorganization after the 9/11 attacks.

Di Rita said Rumsfeld has not made recommendations to Bush, but among the issues he is examining is the viability of the Posse Comitatus Act. Di Rita called it one of the "very archaic laws" from a different era in U.S. history that limits the Pentagon's flexibility in responding to 21st century domestic crises.

Another such law, Di Rita said, is the Civil War-era Insurrection Act, which Bush could have invoked to waive the law enforcement restrictions of the Posse Comitatus Act. That would have enabled him to use either National Guard soldiers or active-duty troops _ or both _ to quell the looting and other lawlessness that broke out in New Orleans.

The Insurrection Act lets the president call troops into federal action inside the United States whenever "unlawful obstructions, combinations or assemblages _ or rebellion against the authority of the United States _ make it impracticable to enforce the laws" in any state.

The political problem in Katrina was that Bush would have had to impose federal command over the wishes of two governors _ Kathleen Blanco of Louisiana and Haley Barbour of Mississippi _ who made it clear they wanted to retain state control.

The last time the Insurrection Act was invoked was in 1992 when it was requested by California Gov. Pete Wilson after the outbreak of race riots in Los Angeles. President George H.W. Bush dispatched about 4,000 soldiers and Marines.

Di Rita cautioned against expecting quick answers to tough questions like whether Congress should define when to trigger the president's authority to send federal troops to take charge of an emergency, regardless of whether a governor agreed.

"Is there a way to define a threshold, or an anticipated threshold, above which a different set of relationships would kick in?" Di Rita asked. "That's a good question. It's only been two weeks, so don't expect us to have the answers. But those are the kinds of questions we need to be asking."

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[captain obvious]

This is scary as hell - and may end up to be the beginning of a series of VERY BAD precedents.

[GRB]

The PC Act was probably enacted around the same time as many of the first gun control laws, they seem to go hand in hand. Sad thing is that if the PC Act is abolished, we will not loose all the gun control laws.

[Lone_Gunman]

Posse Comitatus Act most certainly was important in New Orleans. General Honore himself stated the Army would not be involved in law enforcement, and they were not. They were not involved in the illegal gun confiscations either.

I am surprised that no one thought to repeal Posse Comitatus as part of the Patriot Act. Politicians missed a great opportunity to strengthen federal powers by not adding a repeal into Patriot.

I believe we have seen an alarming increase in federal power under the Bush administration. I suspect Posse Comitatus will be the next victim.

[spartacus2002]

Very disturbing.

[wmenorr67]

From a National Guard member on the ground in NO the 82nd Airborne did not do any law enforcement work. What military that was on the ground that did that work was the National Guard.

[longhorngunman]

Kill the PC act? Well that's apparently what the American public(sheeple) want. The main reason there was a supposed lag by the Feds is because they didn't want to overstep their bounds. But having a nincompoop Democratic governor in charge, let lots of time be wasted. Of course the MSM and the idiotic sheeple blame Bush for this. So now he's pushing for the right to have the Feds to have the power he needs. The POTUS has a lot more calmness than I do. Bush is damnded if he does and damnded if he doesn't. :rolleyes:

[kbr80]

Is Posse Comitatus dead?

Not yet, but it is on life support.

[publius]

It can die and be reborn as needed, just ask the crew of the US Navy, er, ahem, I mean US Coast Guard...ah....oops....had it right the first time, that's US Navy vessel
USS Kidd.
The Myth of Posse Comitatus (http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm)

[flatrock]

It looks to me like the Act held up to the test in NO quite well. When the governors of the states refused to request federal troops, the troops were not sent in.

The people I saw claiming the President should have used the insurrection act to send in federal troops were the New York times.

The President and the federal government abided by the law and didn't interfere even though the State government dropped the ball. That seems like a pretty good test of the government's respect for that law.

Is the act in danger of being weakened to allow faster response in the case of an emergency? Of course it is. All of the laws that protect our rights are always in danger from politicians.

I've seen a lot of talk among politicians about this, but political talk is usually meaningless. I haven't seen any legislation yet.

[Fudgie Ghost]

I didn't know he was sick. . . .!




Sorry, had to do that. . .

[onerifle]

As I was saying... :rolleyes:

Bush eyes bigger military role in disasters

White House says debate raises 'a lot of issues to address'

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/26/bush.military/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said he wants to make it easier for the military to take charge after a disaster like Hurricane Katrina, but the White House acknowledged Monday the proposal raises "a lot of issues" that need resolution.

Critics argue that putting active-duty troops on American streets would violate a long-standing tradition that keeps the military out of domestic law enforcement.

But Bush said he wanted to improve the federal response to a "catastrophic" event like Katrina, which left more than 1,000 people dead after it struck last month.

"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he said.

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bans the armed forces from participating in police-type activity on U.S. soil.

Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush risks undermining "a fundamental principle of American law" by tinkering with the Posse Comitatus Act.

Healy said the act does not hinder the military's ability to respond to a crisis.

"What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role," he wrote in a commentary on the group's Web site. "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-justified."

Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role "can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty."

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican, told The Associated Press he would not favor expanding the federal government's disaster response role.

"I don't want the federal government to take over disaster response, believe me," DeLay told the AP. "Why? Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy."

Bush first raised the issue September 15, in his speech from hurricane-battered New Orleans, and mentioned it again Sunday during a briefing on Hurricane Rita at U.S. Northern Command headquarters in Colorado.

"Is there a natural disaster of a certain size that would then enable the Defense Department to become the lead agency in coordinating and leading the response effort?" Bush said he asked military leaders. "That's going to be a very important consideration for Congress to think about." (Full story)

The administration's response to Katrina, which struck near the Louisiana-Mississippi state line August 29, was widely criticized by state and local officials and some residents of the affected areas.

Bush and other federal officials argued that no one could have foreseen the failure of New Orleans' protective levees, though previous disaster drills had included that scenario.

Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown said he was unaware that thousands of people were stranded without food or water at the city's downtown convention center until September 1.

Regular Army troops led by Lt. Gen. Russel Honore arrived in New Orleans on September 2, beginning to provide food and water, evacuating those still stranded at the Superdome and the convention center and providing a show of force to deter looters.

Brown was replaced as the director of the federal response effort less than two weeks after the storm hit, and he resigned September 12.

On September 13, Bush said Katrina "exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government. And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility."

On Monday, Brown told congressional investigators that he wished he had pushed more forcefully and earlier for federal troops to be brought in to restore order in New Orleans, according to a senior official familiar with the meeting.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush "wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina," including the use of the military in "a severe, catastrophic-type event."

"The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation," McClellan said. "And, certainly, we need support from state and local authorities and other federal agencies, as well."

McClellan said Bush has discussed the idea with top officers at Northern Command, with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and with "some state officials."

"There are a lot of issues to address," he said. "There are legal issues involved. You have to look at what the current law is."

Louisiana Sen. David Vitter, a Republican, said Sunday he was "very supportive" of giving the military a lead role in response to major disasters.

"After Katrina, the moment we began to turn the corner was the moment we had thousands and thousands of uniforms and boots on the ground," he told CNN.

Vitter's Democratic counterpart, Sen. Mary Landrieu, said the military "has a key role to play" but was more cautious about diminishing local and state control.

"I'm not sure the governors association or all the mayors in America would be willing to sort of step aside," she said.

Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

[spartacus2002]

Militarization of humanitarian efforts is not conducive to the health of a free Republic.

[rick_reno]

"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he said.

"for the good of the people" has apparently replaced "for the children". How can anyone argue with something that is "for the good of the people"? Don't you believe Bush? Why doubt him, everything he's done so far has worked out so well.

[cabinboy]

Gov. Huckabee of AR held the line in an interview I saw (maybe on CNN) -- routine deployment of active duty military is illegal and unnecessary.

We all had better get that message out to our servant politicians, ASAP.

[idakfan]

Ok people let's remember WACO.

The Feds lied and said there was a drug lab at the Church (demonized as a Compound) and used this excuse to get National Guard troops and Tanks.

The Military can be called in if it's drug-related. Possee Commitatus has long been a dead letter, like most of the Constitution.