Can I buy or build an AR that is as light and handy as an M1 Carbine?


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cslinger
March 27, 2003, 10:48 AM
Ok, I am reasonably well versed in ARs and how they work and their configurations.

One thing I have noticed is it seems that everybody is putting a heavy barrel on them. Maybe not necessarily a HB as in target barrel but they just seem heavier than the ARs I remember as a kid.

I was wondering if it is possible to make or buy a current post ban AR that is as light and handy as an M1 Carbine.

I would prefer to not use any polymer lowers and I won't consider a Carbon 15.

I would prefer the shortest length possible.

Would I be better off going with a pre-ban Colt Commando/M4/XM177/Whatever the hell they had before the ban?

Thanks
Chris.

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Steve Smith
March 27, 2003, 10:50 AM
I know you said you don't like the polymer lowers but they do make a big difference in weight. I'm waiting for my Cav-Arms to come back (swapping to the A1 length) and I'll give a full report when I ring it out. It is VERY light with a lightweight 16" barrel.

JHill
March 27, 2003, 11:28 AM
Several peeps are building sub-5.5# ar's w/ the new "pencil-thin" barrels that I think bushmaster offers.

Others have posted some rifles that are in the ~4.75# range.

Jeff White
March 27, 2003, 11:45 AM
My Colt R6920 weighed in at just over 6 pounds. A couple guys on the AR15 list have gotten down to around 5 pounds by using lightweight barrels and fixed collapsible stocks on postbans and polymer receivers.

If you go to AR15-L on yahoogroups you should be able to find several threads on building very lightweight ARs.


Jeff

KelBench400
March 27, 2003, 12:42 PM
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa2y16sl.asp

This is the lightest, handiest carbine we’ve ever offered! It’s chrome lined 16” barrel is turned from .670” to .600” diameter under the handguard. It is .650” diam. under the sight base, and then .570” out to the muzzle. Add to that our “Stubby Stock” (10 3/8” length of pull), and you’ve got a Carbine that weighs in at only 5.8 lbs and is only 31 1/4” in overall.

444
March 27, 2003, 12:53 PM
I am currently putting together a lightweight AR. I started off by sending a 16" Bushmaster upper to KKF for Kurt to turn down to his super lightweight configuration: http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/catalog/item/29585/1132.htm
I am using a standard lower with an Ace ARBT stock: http://www.riflestocks.com/html/ar15_m16_products.html

I don't know what this will weigh but it should be less than six pounds, I would think. I can't see how you could get much lighter without using a less than 16" barrel. I am getting a muzzle brake on my upper and told Kurt to trim the barrel back so that the overall length is just over the legal minimum. I don't know if the muzzle brake will be heavier or lighter than a bare barrel.

I have a plastic CAV15 lower, and I think it is significantly heavier than the rifle I described above. The lower receiver, the stock and the pistol grip are all moulded out of two pieces of plastic that are attached lengthwise. If you could get a plastic lower receiver only, it might be lighter but I don't know for sure, aluminum is pretty light.

Bushmaster now offers a super lightweight barrel which came out after I sent my upper to KKF. I still would have gone with the KKF upper because I wanted the brake he offers.

Onslaught
March 27, 2003, 03:47 PM
I am fairly confused about the ACE Limited stocks, especially the ARBT.

The website says:
"Length of pull and cant can be infinitely adjusted 1.5" of travel. Your weapon can be set up for a specific mission or individual and for use with or without body armor. The boomtube/buffer tube can also be cut down to a minimum of 7.5" for C.Q.B. The ARBT can be adjusted to almost a 1.0" longer than an A2 length stock, for a LOP of 14.5"."

But at the same time, it also says:
"ARBT stock is superior to all other tactical non-collapsible stocks on the market "

And lastly, the warning at the bottom...
"Note: The ARBT has not been ATF approved for post-ban rifles. Check all Local, State and Federal laws before installation.".

SO is it a telescoping stock? How is the LOP adjustable if it's not?

I have a pre-ban bushmaster that I have been trying to shave some ### off of, and wouldn't mind putting one of these stocks on, but I don't get enough info from the site.

I also think I've seen an even lighter weight version offered from ACE, but I don't remember what it was called. It looked like the ARBT, but without the lower support arm that extends to the bottom rear of the stock.

BigG
March 27, 2003, 03:52 PM
The old Colt AR15 SP1, modeled after the original M16 was about as light as they come and as handy as an M1 carbine, to me. They even made carbine versions with 16" bbls but they of course want big bucks for them.

El Tejon
March 27, 2003, 04:37 PM
Can you go Title II or keep it within Title I?:confused:

Mikul
March 27, 2003, 04:50 PM
Can you make a telescoping stock if it's minimum length is above a certain amount?

There are nice rifle stocks (eg MacMillan) available with an adjustable stock length, but I don't think that any of them are telescoping.

444
March 28, 2003, 12:45 AM
Onslaught
The ACE stocks are not collapsable. Reread you post; "Your weapon can be set up for a specific mission or individual and for use with or without body armor. The boomtube/buffer tube can also be cut down to a minimum of 7.5" for C.Q.B." The tube can be CUT DOWN . In other words, you tell them that you work on a swat entry team and always use your weapons with a heavy entry vest on. So, they cut down the tube to a length you specify and it is set up for a specific mission or individual. I recently shot with a female who was using an AR15 with a colapsable stock and she was able to adjust the stock to fit her very petite build. If she wanted to, she could measure the stock she is using now and have an ACE stock custom cut for her.
For me, the ACE stocks are some of the most comfortable stocks I have ever used. They seem to fit me like a glove. When I put the rifle to my shoulder, the sights are right on target. I like the look of it, and it is a quality item that is everything it is cracked up to be.

"I also think I've seen an even lighter weight version offered from ACE, but I don't remember what it was called. It looked like the ARBT, but without the lower support arm that extends to the bottom rear of the stock."
Click on the link in my previous post. The ARBT stock is the single tube. This single tube is the buffer tube that is already inside your A1 or A2 stock. That foam cover simply covers your buffer tube. The ARFX stock is the one with two tubes. Again, the top tube is your buffer tube covered with foam. Note that since this tube is already in your rifle and is a requred part of the rifle, most of the ARBT is a part that is already on your rifle and is on every AR15 rifle. So the only additional weight over the bare tube is a collar that holds in your selector detent and spring, and the buttplate. I don't see how you could get a lighter stock than this.
I have one of each. I have never fired the rifle with the ARBT stock on it, I just got it yesterday. The ARFX stock rifle, is one that I have fired a fair amount and I love the stock. I have showed it to a couple non-AR15 owners and they said, "hey this feels really good".

Onslaught
March 28, 2003, 10:23 AM
I don't see how you could get a lighter stock than this.

Found it... http://www.del-ton.com/buttstock3.htm

http://www.del-ton.com/Buttstocks_img/Post_Ban/AceLWwith.jpg

Could be the ARBT, but if you notice the difference between the one above, and the one from your link below, (the extra "support arm" I was trying to describe)...

http://www.riflestocks.com/assets/images/020421-23A.jpg

The tube can be CUT DOWN . In other words, you tell them that you work on a swat entry team and always use your weapons with a heavy entry vest on. So, they cut down the tube to a length you specify and it is set up for a specific mission or individual.
I understand what your saying, but it sounded like 2 different options...

"Length of pull and cant can be infinitely adjusted 1.5" of travel. Your weapon can be set up for a specific mission or individual and for use with or without body armor. The boomtube/buffer tube can also be cut down to a minimum of 7.5" for C.Q.B.

It reads like you can adjust the LOP and cant "infinitely" to set it up for different missions, I.E. longer today, shorter tomorrow, longer again the day after, etc...

And it ALSO can be cut super short for CQB....

Oh well, thanks for the explanation.

Blain
March 28, 2003, 11:09 AM
The more I look at that new light barreled Bushie AR the more I like it. Though I wonder about the thiner barrel....just how much does it degrade preformance? In terms of accuracy and in terms of heat effects from semi-rapid fire? Sure is nice to have as light a weapon as possible in the AR!

rock jock
March 28, 2003, 12:32 PM
444,

How is the cheek weld on the ARFX?

444
March 28, 2003, 12:49 PM
Rock, I know where you are coming from. I have a couple ARs with collapsable stocks and I can't get a consistent cheek weld with them. If I am trying to shoot a group on paper, I have to carefully evaluate my shooting position prior to each shot to make sure I am in the same position as the last shot. I don't notice that with the ACE stock and I guess it is because the tube is the same diameter the whole length.
I am obviously an AR15 nut. I really love the rifle and have a number of variations. I guess if I could only own one, it would have an A2 stock on it. But if you are looking for something a little different, or something a little lighter these ACE stocks are the best ones that I have tried.

cslinger
March 28, 2003, 01:03 PM
Thanks for all the responses. That light weight bushy looks rather nice actually.

Thanks
Chris

rock jock
March 28, 2003, 04:05 PM
444,

Yeah, I guess I have been trying to do too much with my existing AR. I want it to be a tactical 3-gun rifle and then switch out my upper and make it a varmit gun. There are just too many differences between the two lowers. I suppose I will have to save up and buy another lower. Sigh.

dude
March 28, 2003, 05:02 PM
pre-ban Colt CAR with the so-called 'pencil barrel' is about the shortest & lightest AR you can get............but they run about $1500 bucks!!

I have one of these ($449 NIB in 1984) and a IAI M1 Carbine. To me the M1 will always be more 'handy' as you describe because of the standard/non pistol grip stock, although the CAR is pretty 'handy' and light.

benEzra
March 29, 2003, 02:56 PM
Hmmmm. Let's see, super-lightweight .223 with M1 Carbine handling characteristics, "pencil thin" lightweight (floppy, heat-prone) barrel--you can get a mini-14 for $400, have a gunsmith cut the barrel down to 16", and save $800!:D

Seriously, many of the mini's disadvantages compared to the AR relate to the thin, floppy barrel, so that may not be all that far off the mark. The mini IS basically a scaled-up M1 carbine.

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