[hobbeeman]

I took my CHL course yesterday. In the course, the instructor gave example after example of what I can only categorize as abuse (or at least borderline abuse) of CHL holders by LEO's.

I don't usually think of myself as naive, but I did not think that this was as common as I now believe, especially in the smaller city in which I live.

I don't wish to form an adversarial relationship with LEO's.

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.

I am now wondering if I should get some knife training, and only use my firearms in my car, home and for sport? Use it where I don't have to have a CHL or identify myself as having a concealed weapon?

Have you ever had second thoughts about your CHL?

[nextjoe]

The only second thoughts I've had have been about the fingerprinting requirement in my state. I've never been printed, don't want to be printed, and hate the idea of my prints being on file. Criminals get fingerprinted, not law-abiding citizens.

That said... I'm re-taking the CCW course next month. I took it the first time two years ago, then ended up moving and never got the permit.

[nextjoe]

By the way, for more info on the "21 feet with a knife" situation, do a search for "Tueller drill."

[scubie02]

I didn't like being fingerprinted either. But then in NY you have to be fingerprinted to be a teacher too. With the way they fingerprint kids now, soon enough they'll have everyone's prints one way or another.

[Mixlesplick]

I have never had second thoughts about getting a concealed pistol license. I would have gotten one ten years ago if Michigan had been shall issue at the time. Even before the cpl I had "means" to defend myself. I have believed strongly in the right to self defense since I was a kid.

My one encounter with a police officer when I was armed came when I was in a minor traffic accident. It went welll. I handed him my driver's license and cpl and all I got was a sharp look as he asked if I had the pistol on me. He never disarmed me and he went on with the investigation of the accident. Then he game me a ticket. :rolleyes: The accident was my fault. There was no way to paint that picture otherwise. The other driver was never aware that I was armed.

There are ways to deal with the situation if you feel you are being mistreated because you are armed. I would ask for a supervisor to be present. I would also be ready to file a complaint after the fact. Unfortunately, we have to let the situation unfold at the time and take it. Alone on the side of the road is not the place to get into a confrontation. It is the price some of us have to pay to exercise our rights.

[trickyasafox]

im in ny and i turned 21 this past may. i had to be fingerprinted for my internship, so i got both done the same day. one went back to my place of intern the other went with my permit info

i am very doubtful that keeping your fingerprints off file will keep you below the radar. everyone leaves a paper trail. i dont care who you are. if someone really wants to find someone, its not to hard

[nextjoe]

i am very doubtful that keeping your fingerprints off file will keep you below the radar. everyone leaves a paper trail. i dont care who you are. if someone really wants to find someone, its not to hard

I know it won't, especially since Michigan requires permits for handguns. It just sickens me to give up one more little shred of privacy :cuss: :banghead: :barf:

[HighVelocity]

I don't wish to form an adversarial relationship with LEO's.


All my contacts with LEO's since getting my CHL have been uneventful.
I've been pulled over twice for speeding and after producing my DL and CHL, was simply told "Please slow it down a bit" and was on my way without even a written warning.
I believe that by showing your CHL, you're telling the officer that, I'm one of the good guys". After all, you had a state and fed background check, fingerprints and coughed up a pile of time and $ to get that CHL. A criminal isn't going to worry about a license.

[Working Man]

The little flack one may or may not get by being a CHL holder is
little to deter me from maintaining mine. The once in a lifetime
chance that I may need it makes any hassle more than worth it.
Besides it is well with in my rights to do so and I will not be chased
away from them. If things ever got more serious with the anti-gun
movement, that's even more reason to stand up and be counted.
I refuse to loose my right to carry.

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.

The knife thing is more of an example to promote a person to be
aware of their surroundings. Being aware is you first line of defense.
You have to think about how you are going to carry and how you would
react in a certain situation. There is quite a lot to think about and a
plan of action should already be figured out. If it is going to hold up under
fire... who knows... your mind could go blank, you could freeze, but you
have a better chance if you have already given it some thought. Remember
hesitation kills.

[centuryhouse]

I'm in DFW area also. The only stop I've been involved in was for a registration sticker being expired, and I had the new one in the seat next to me ready to be put on the window when I got home.

The officer was courteous & did not disarm me. I think he said something jokingly like "as long as you don't take it out and wave it around then it doesn't bother me at all" before he walked back to his car to run my license.

[m39fan]

The only time that I wanted to know if you had a permit and were armed is if I was going to/could see it or if you were under arrest!!!! Indiana doesn't require that you announce the fact and truthfully, the ones that did announce it seemed a little to anxious to do so (i.e. Hi officer, I'm Rambo and I have a gun. I'M SPECIAL! :barf: ) If your state requires that you announce the fact, then do so. Otherwise you may have a cop that wanting to know exactly WHY you're so happy to announce the fact especially if it's during a traffic stop (the most dangerous duty a cop can do).

Just my .02,
Mike

[waterhouse]

My experience has been the opposite of what you mention. When I lived in Virginia there were a couple of times when I was pulled over where I said "Just for your safety and awareness, I have a CHL and I am carrying. It is on my right side right behind my hip in an inside the waistband holster. How would you like to proceed?" I said this right after they asked for my driver's license and with my hands still firmly attached to the wheel.

One of them told me to drive more slowly in the future and let me go without ever looking at my driver's license. The other asked me to slowly step out of the vehicle and he took the gun. He even asked me if I would "mind if he temporarily took possesion of the weapon while he ran a quick check." He then ran my driver's license and checked my CHL, and then gave me my gun back and sent me on my merry way with no ticket.

[boofus]

Your CHL does not permit you to carry knives for defense. Stick with the gun.

[neoncowboy]

Have you ever had second thoughts about your CHL?

Yes.

'Bearing arms' is what we are doing when we carry concealed, open or otherwise.

It's an innate, God given right protected by the 2A. How some idiots decided I have to have a permit to do it is beyond me.

Everytime I see my permit in my wallet it reminds me that the government made me ask permission, pay a fee and satisfy other requirements before it would let me exercise myright!

Sometimes I think it would be a lot more satisfying and fulfilling to carry without the permit...maybe I won't renew it when it expires.

[Gordon Fink]

I’ve been fingerprinted as part of background checks for various jobs, so the damage is done. My fear is that I may leave my prints at a future crime scene and become a suspect as a result, but I probably shouldn’t worry.

~G. Fink

[RRTX]

I've heard of very few cases here in TX of law enforcement harassing CHL holders. I have no regrets of getting mine and carry every time I leave the house unless I'm going somewhere that I can't carry. I would rather have it on me and not need it, than need it and not have it. The fingerprint deal doesn't bother me, the military has my DNA on file and I've been printed for security clearances before so I'm already in the "system."

[ny32182]

I've never had contact with LEO's while carrying, and I've already been fingerprinted (I remember them doing it at school when I was very young, and its probably happened at some time since then too), so no, no regrets.

[Hawkmoon]

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.
You are referring to the Tueller Drill.

The point of the drill is to demonstrate how quickly an adversary armed with a knife can get "up close and personal." At the time Lt. Tueller came up with the drill, the basis was that it took a trained officer approximately 1-1/2 seconds to draw a duty weapon from a duty holster. And further experimenting showed that an armed attacker could cover 21 feet in that length of time.

21 feet was not the key number. The key number was 1-1/2 seconds, and 21 feet drived from that. For a typical CCW holder the critical time element will be greater than 1-1/2 seconds, and therefore the critical distance will be greater than 21 feet.

Fact: Newer retention holsters require more time to draw, hence 21 feet is no longer valid. The appropriate distance today is farther.

Fact: The average CCW (CHL) holder cannot draw from cover within 1-1/2 seconds, hence 21 feet is not a valid distance to "justify" deployment of a handgun for a "civilian." Again, the appropriate distance is farther.

And lastly, the BG can still cover the 21 feet in 1-1/2 seconds, regardless of what's hanging off your belt or in your pocket. If a police officer wearing an exposed holster needs 1-1/2 seconds (or more) to draw, how long do you realistically think it's going to take you to fumble around in your posket, find and withdraw your Cold Steel tactical folder, open it up and assume a defensive posture? My bet is the BG will have you for breakfast while your hand is still in your pocket.

21 feet is NOT far! Think shopping center parking lot. The average parking stall is typically between 19 and 21 feet deep, so when we're talking 21 feet, we're talking about a BG traveling from the front of your car to the back of your car. Think about it -- in that perspective, 21 feet doesn't seem like very far at all.

[Jhorn]

I have lived in San Antonio and DFW since I have gotten my permit and unfortunately I have had to give my CHL to a few LEO's (used to have a heavy foot!) but all of my experiences have been very good, none have ever wanted to even see the weapon.
I have renewed my permit a couple times and some of the instructors got 'side tracked' with many stories, just take in to account the individual, not everyone repeats a story exactly as it happened.
No regrets.

[JohnKSa]

Your CHL does not permit you to carry knives for defense.There is no permit required to carry a knife for defense in TX as long as the knife is not an "illegal knife" as defined in the penal code.

A single edged folder with a blade 5" or less that doesn't open automatically is legal.

As far as the original question: I have never been hassled by an LEO over having a CHL.

Closest I ever came was at an accident scene where someone came over the center yellow line and hit my car. The DPS trooper who responded was in a nasty mood (it was late on a rainy night), and when I informed him (as required by law) that I was carrying a gun he told me curtly to leave it in the car, that the last thing he needed was someone waving a gun around.

[RavenVT100]

The only second thoughts I've had have been about the fingerprinting requirement in my state. I've never been printed, don't want to be printed, and hate the idea of my prints being on file. Criminals get fingerprinted, not law-abiding citizens.

I just have to laugh at this. In my state, you're required to be fingerprinted and wait for what could end up being six months to a year to even own a single handgun. I said own, not carry.

All I can say is that if you don't want to ever be fingerprinted (and release your private medical info to the police, release details of family members and refs to the police, et cetera), stay politically active and write your representatives. Because I can promise you that you will end up having to be fingerprinted in order to own any guns if the Democratic Party gets what it wants.

[M2 Carbine]

hobbeeman, I think your instructor has some kind of agenda or he's just full of poop.

Since I got my CHL I have been stopped by almost every kind of LEO there is, DPS, Sheriff, locals and and even four times in the speed trap at Lott, if you know where that is.

Not only was there no problem at all, but I didn't get one ticket. Even at the Lott and one other speed trap. :)

I've never heard of anyone that I know having the least bit of trouble from LEO's about their CHL.

I'll continue to renew my CHL as long as I can pick up a gun. :)

[Drizzt]

I've not found too many LEOs who've had any sort of issue with the CHL. In fact, most of the DPS troopers I've talked to think its a good thing. It seems to be the leadership, rather than the workers who complain about it.

[nfl1990]

One thing to consider about the 21', it assumes that the BG has the knife out and ready

[wdlsguy]

I think your instructor has some kind of agenda or he's just full of poop.

+1

[Mulliga]

Quite the opposite. Although I wish we could have Vermont-style carry here in Florida, I'm willing to swallow a relatively small compromise in my principles in order to defend my life and those around me, just as I am unwilling to risk carrying illegally, which is a felony here and as such would basically screw up your life forever.

I've never been made or had a run-in with a LEO while carrying, so I have no experience about that. From what I've read and heard, however, most LEOs either don't care or are slightly happy/relieved to be dealing with a "known entity," so to speak.

As for the Tueller Drill, I've found that I can go from hands above shoulders (and awaiting the beep) to aimed first shot in about 2 seconds and some change. This is with a standard IWB holster covered by a T-shirt, while moving forward. The key thing to remember is that you don't have to stand still when someone charges at you - careful movement to the right or left will lengthen the time you have to respond. Of course, 21 feet assumes you are fully aware of the BG and his weapon, a condition that may or may not apply to the real world (it's really easy to conceal a knife or a gun in a newspaper, or a jacket, or a bag, etc.)

[Standing Wolf]

Have you ever had second thoughts about your CHL?

I regret not leaving the People's Republic of California and returning to the United States quite a few years before I did.

[Hawkmoon]

As for the Tueller Drill, I've found that I can go from hands above shoulders (and awaiting the beep) to aimed first shot in about 2 seconds and some change.
Congratulations. If the BG is 21 feet away and can cover the 21 feet in 1-1/2 seconds, you are only half a second too late to save your life.

Of course, not every BG will be that fast. On the other hand, not every BG will be that slow. Don't forget that an NFL football lineman has to be able to cover 40 yards in 4 seconds or he's not even on the taxi squad.

I really don't think the instructor explained what the 21-foot "rule" is or where it came from. More than likely, he didn't even know. It is not a "rule" to be followed, it was intended by Lt. Tueller as a "rule of thumb" to demonstrate to officers how wide their circle of alertness to a potential threat had to be. Yes, in the Tueller Drill the BG already has the knife drawn and visible. The point was to show officers that just because the BG was 21 feet away it didn't mean they should relax their guard and assume he wasn't a threat.

And Lt. Tueller himself is now saying that the meaning and importance of his "drill" have been misunderstood and misapplied. He is also of the opinion that 21 feet is no longer a valid number, because of the longer time it takes to draw from the level 3 retention holster.

Just to clarify: If it came across from the class that 21 feet represents some sort of magical boundary line, and that you either can or should shoot any bad guy within 21 feet and that you won't be prosecuted if you do so ... either the instructor was way off base, or you didn't understand him correctly.

The ONLY thing the Tueller Drill was intended to accomplish was to show police officers that if they had an armed BG within 21 feet it was time to draw the duty weapon and be prepared to shoot ... IF NECESSARY. The point was simply and solely to show that 21 feet was not far enough away to think that a BG holding a knife isn't a threat. It was never intended to become a hard and fast rule saying you can't shoot if the BG is more than 21 feet away, or that you must shoot if he's within 21 feet.

[goose]

A comment from Trickasafox (above) about ".....everyone leaves a paper trail." TRUE! I took up handgunning 3 months ago, been shotgunning & rifle hunting for over 35 yrs. Went to our chief of police to get a permit to purchase a handgun. Got it. Purchased a handgun. Took a handgun course to get my 'Permit to carry' license. Had to go to our county's sheriff's office with my 'handgun course' certificate to apply for the permit-$100. A week later, I get a call from the sheriff's office, "Mr xxxx, we have a record from xxxx, Illinois that you were arrested on Feb 22, 1956. Might you know why you were arrested then? That city doesn't have anything on why you were arrested." I answered, "Wow, that was almost 50 yrs ago...I don't remember." He then said, "We'll have to look into it again." I received my permit to carry 6 days later. 50 years? Big Brother is alive! (Could have been my driving record then.....it wasn't nice. No, I never drank.)

[hobbeeman]

I understood about the BG 21ft away with a knife was to increase our (classmembers) awareness of our surroundings. However, I surmise that if the BG can cover the distance and get to me in less time that I can draw and fire (<2sec), perhaps it would be prudent to carry a knife as a primary weapon? Especially if I took the time to train with a knife, like I have started to train with the handgun?

In Texas, you do not have to have any kind of permit to carry a legal knife.

I do appreciate the good comments from those of you that have not had bad experiences with LEO's when showing your CHL.

[IZinterrogator]

The only second thoughts I've had have been about the fingerprinting requirement in my state. I've never been printed, don't want to be printed, and hate the idea of my prints being on file. Criminals get fingerprinted, not law-abiding citizens.Hmmm, I'm a law-abiding citizen, and a member of the military. To join the military, I not only had to give fingerprints, but also a DNA sample. There are so many reasons that people have to give fingerprints that it is not at all unusual for a law-abiding citizen to have theirs on file.

[MikeIsaj]

coughed up a pile of time and $ to get that CHL.In PA. it took about 5 minutes to fill out the app. and pay the $19.00. After that about 30 seconds to open the envelope and put the permit in my wallet. No permission, no decision, no class. I'm not a criminal so I get to exercise my rights.

RE: Knife fighting,
The best way to win a knife fight is to discharge the snubby in a gut shot. A knife is never a good substitute for a gun.

[MaterDei]

I think your instructor has some kind of agenda or he's just full of poop.
+2. Most likely the latter.

[torpid]

As for the Tueller Drill, I've found that I can go from hands above shoulders (and awaiting the beep) to aimed first shot in about 2 seconds and some change.

Congratulations. If the BG is 21 feet away and can cover the 21 feet in 1-1/2 seconds, you are only half a second too late to save your life.

(pssst)
You're allowed to move too!


;)

[bigmike45]

hobbeeman,

I have been stopped 4 times in the last three years after getting my Texas CHL. Two times for gently pushing the envelope of the speed limit, once for rear license plate light out and once for supposedly not dimming my headlights in time when meeting oncoming traffic.

All 4 times were very pleasant when dealing with the DPS and one Deputy Sheriff. One of the DPS trooper did ask what I carry and I showed him the SIG P-220ST I was carrying at that time. He asked to look at it so I slowly took it out of my holster, removed the clip, cleared the chamber and handed it to him. I think he fell in love since he was carrying a SIG in .40. He said if I ever was to sell it to let him know, so I did. About a year later I called him and he bought it from me. It is his personal carry gun now. :D

Oh by the way, none of the stops caused a citation to be issued. One DPS did ask me to slow down. He stated that I had obviously worked so hard to keep my record clean and because of that was able to recieve a CHL, I do not need to cause an accident, where I might be at fault, and cause some severe bodily injury or even a death, and loose the right to have that CHL. I thought about what he said and am now keeping within the speed limit.

[Werewolf]

When I got my CCW in OK my inked prints were rejected twice by the OSBI (OK State Bureau of Investigation) so I had to go down to OSBI and get the digital prints done.

While there I struck up a conversation with the lady doing the prints. Not only did she make the prints but she was one of the folks that examines, compares etc the prints.

FWIW she told me that for most folks any prints more than 5 or 6 years old were of little value when it came to identification because prints change over time. She told me getting an 80 to 85 percent match on 5 year old prints was doing good.

If she is to be believed then even though your prints may be on file they are probably of little use to the government after 5 or so years.

[benEzra]

I took my CHL course yesterday. In the course, the instructor gave example after example of what I can only categorize as abuse (or at least borderline abuse) of CHL holders by LEO's.

I don't usually think of myself as naive, but I did not think that this was as common as I now believe, especially in the smaller city in which I live.

I don't wish to form an adversarial relationship with LEO's.

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.

I am now wondering if I should get some knife training, and only use my firearms in my car, home and for sport? Use it where I don't have to have a CHL or identify myself as having a concealed weapon?

Have you ever had second thoughts about your CHL?
Not at all. I suspect your instructor may be trying to discourage you? (Or else he's just one heck of a pessimist.)

I've only had one encounter with a LEO after getting my CHL, and it was very positive. The fact that I had a CHL (and it showed up when he ran our plates) seemed to reassure him that I was a "good guy," rather than the opposite. He let my wife off with a warning and a "have a nice day" (she was pulled over for failing to come to a complete stop at a stop sign while we were house-hunting, as I recall).

The officer who took my prints at the courthouse during the application/background check process said he thought CHL's should be issued to citizens free of charge, instead of charging us for it.

Re: the 21-foot scenario, if someone is 21 feet away with a knife in his hand and is after you, a holstered gun is STILL better than nothing at all. If you can run off the line of force while drawing, you can defend yourself. If you can gain enough distance, a gun lets you keep the guy with a knife at a distance; to defend yourself with a knife, you have to get within the range of HIS knife, so having a knife in your pocket (or in your hand) is definitely NOT better than a firearm from a defensive standpoint. As has been mentioned, the Teuller rule is all about situational awareness, and also about NOT STANDING STILL if someone is approaching you with a knife...

[Jayman]

Something you guys may want to consider is studying a combative martial art and secondly doing some drills to figure out what you can and cannot get away with. A dummy knife, an airsoft gun, and some safety goggles, and you'll quickly understand what does and doesn't work.

If the gun on your belt is your only tool, you may not be prepared to deal with some other eventualities. While I don't think that everybody should go out and spend years studying a martial art, attending a few seminars or some training sessions might not be a bad idea.

Best thing to do if you have room, is move off of the line of force. That gives you a lot more time to explore your options. Standing still in a dynamic environment is the first and best way to end up dead. First rule of SHTF: MOVE YOUR BUTT! If somebody is charging you retreat LATERALLY away from their direction of movement. Put something between you and them. (Car, mailbox, desk, something.) While doing this you have time to figure out if you should just keep manuvering, draw your gun, pick up something and throw it, etc. Movement is your friend.

[beaucoup ammo]

I walk with a brace and crutches..am 59.. my wife's put up with me for 36 years. We were both mugged 4 months ago coming out of a restaurant here in S.A.

I swore it would never happen again. I've had my CHL for 3 weeks and it makes a difference in how I perceive my ability to protect ny wife and myself from the growing number of scum bags that are inflicting pain on hard working Americans. I only wish I'd gotten my CHL a little sooner!!

See You Soon!

[MikeIsaj]

beaucoup ammo;

Welcome to THR, don't be a stranger.

Now that you are armed, make sure you are skilled. A tool without skill is not going to serve you well. Also know the law and what it requires of you regarding lethal force in self defense. Lots of good threads on that topic here.

[beaucoup ammo]

Thanks, Mike

Visited my Dad is Stone Harbor til he passed away 3 years ago. Most folks don't realize what a beautiful place those So. Jersey Forrests are in the Fall!

All they hear about is Newark!

I'm with you on the "skills" angle...with the crutches and bum leg..the dynamics change considerably!

Best Regards!

[~z]

Wow, alotta talk from the Lone Star on this topic. No problems here either. Just a bit pissed that we have to have a premit to be "legal".
~z

[Vern Humphrey]

The other thing that was taught to us is that someone 21ft away can stab you before you can get your gun unholstered and fire a round in defense.

I am now wondering if I should get some knife training, and only use my firearms in my car, home and for sport?

Did they explain to you that the guy with the knife is the attacker, not the defender in the Tueller drill?

Did they point out that the guy with the knife, while it's amost impossible to draw and stop him, will usually take a shot at contact range?

[Hobie]

My fingerprints, teeth (by means of panographic xrays) and DNA are on file due to my military service. What does it matter that there is one more copy of the fingerprints they can't find any faster than those the military has got posted?

LEOs hassling CHP (here in VA) holders? Let them. If I follow the rules they have to, too. Here we have the VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org) defender of freedom and the American way. Ok, a bit overboard (maybe) there but you get the picture. Excercise your rights by using every privelege proper behavior gives you. It is your duty. Opposing evil is a duty. This is one way to do so.

[middy]

[in Texas] A single edged folder with a blade 5" or less that doesn't open automatically is legal.
Actually, it doesn't have to be a folder and it's "less than 5.5 inches".

[jobu07]

the ones that did announce it seemed a little to anxious to do so (i.e. Hi officer, I'm Rambo and I have a gun. I'M SPECIAL! ) If your state requires that you announce the fact, then do so.

Ya know, in New York there is no provision requiring you to notify the officer you are carrying or even licensed. So one night, I got pulled over. Long story short, I didn't have my headlights on.

Anyway, half way through the stop, he gets me out of my car and has me "assume the position" to get patted down. I've never been frisked before so I stop him before he does so, finding a handgun, and let him know I have a handgun at 3 o'clock and my license to carry said gun is in my wallet. He went berserk.

Well, after I spent about half an hour in hand cuffs and had a supervisor telling this cop he owed me an apology, I was sent on my merry way. But not before the officer that stopped me told me that before I say anything else, I should say to the cop "I have a gun." :eek: I didn't think that's a great way to break the ice when you get stopped. Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Shootcraps]

I've never regretted it for a minute. It's very reassuring that if the SHTF, I'll be able to protect myself and my family.

I've had a security clearance for a loooong time so lots of people already had my fingerprints. :evil: Giving them for my CHL was no biggie.

[Double Naught Spy]

hobbeeman said...
I took my CHL course yesterday. In the course, the instructor gave example after example of what I can only categorize as abuse (or at least borderline abuse) of CHL holders by LEO's.

hobbeeman, did your instructor provide you with real reports or just rattle off stories like he knew all these first hand? It sounds to me like your instructor has it in for LEOs. Since you are in Texas, I assume you were doing a Texas CHL. So the stories reported are from Texas? If so, that is about 100% contrary to what I have experienced and what I have learned from LEOs and CHL instructors I know. As noted, a CHL pretty well identifies you as a card carrying good guy that has undergone and passed a more extensive background check that is required for LEOs in Texas. For example, you can become a LEO even with a report of spousal abuse against you, but that can disqualify you for a CHL.

My only regret about my CHL is that I didn't get it sooner.

FWIW she told me that for most folks any prints more than 5 or 6 years old were of little value when it came to identification because prints change over time. She told me getting an 80 to 85 percent match on 5 year old prints was doing good.

Werewolf, no wonder your fingerprint samples were rejected multiple times. Your fingerprint expert that does the matches is apparently a little shy in her understanding of fingerprints, maybe only 1+ centuries shy. William Herschel (1833 - 1918) While working as the Assistant Joint Magistrate and Collector in colonial India, Herschel is credited with being the first European to recognize the value of fingerprints for identification purposes. In 1859 he began collecting, as keepsakes, the fingerprints of his friends and relatives and took note of how each impression was unique to the individual and observed that the patterns did not change over time.

IN 1892, Galton published "Finger Prints" and noted that they do not change over time.

Some means of record storage may deteriorate over time, but the prints don't change. Heck, the basis for biometric fingerprint identification is based on the trait that the fingerprints do not change. They are immutable so long as they don't suffer some form of physical damage such as scarring.

If fingerprints change so much that getting a match is hard after 5 years, then how would you expect cold cases to be solved based on fingerprint matches from old cases and people recently jailed? Here is a 14 year example...
http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/paper410/news/2004/10/15/StateLocal/Case-Solved.After.14.Years-754926.shtml

here is a 25 year example (CASE STUDY: FINGERPRINT IDENTIFICATION )...
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/factsfigure/lawenforce.htm

Cold cases can be resolved by fingerprints because of their permanence.

Permanence: Fingerprint ridges are formed during the third to fourth month of fetal development. These ridges consist of individual characteristics called ridge endings, bifurcations, dots and many ridge shape variances. The unit relationship of individual characteristics does not naturally change throughout life... until decomposition after death. After formation, an infant's growing fingerprint ridges are much like drawing a face on a balloon with a ball-point pen and then inflating the balloon to see the same face expand uniformly in all directions. Unnatural changes to fingerprint ridges include deep cuts or injuries penetrating all layers of the epidermis and some diseases such as leprosy. http://onin.com/fp/lpfaq.html

That is sort of frightening that the state expert in OK would make such a fundamental error. Are you sure that is what she told you?

[bratch]

Knife skills are a good skill to have. I have probably 50-100 hours of knife training.

perhaps it would be prudent to carry a knife as a primary weapon? Especially if I took the time to train with a knife, like I have started to train with the handgun?

Have you ever tried to draw and open a folder under stress? I would consider it slower than drawing a pistol unless you are really good.

I've done all of my knife training with a very well respected trainer. He carries a pistol as well as multiple knives.

Its about having the right tool for the job. I knife can be stealthly carried in a dark parking lot alot easier than a gun. Each have their place.

[JohnKSa]

Actually, it doesn't have to be a folder and it's "less than 5.5 inches".There's a new law defining how to measure the blade, and I'll be switched if I can figure it out. As nearly as I can tell, they're measuring along the cutting edge and calling that the length of the blade. The law says 5.5" as you note, but since I can't explain what the 5.5" actually applies to, I've quoted a more conservative number.

As far as the folder, the definitions of illegal knife are poorly bounded in some cases and could be construed to mean almost anything by someone who wants to cause trouble. However, a single edged folder that doesn't open automatically is clearly outside any of the definitions as nearly as I can tell...

Here's the text of the law--this is a bit outdated and doesn't include the new definition of how to measure the blade length:"Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.
dagger/dirk/stilletto/poiniard (generally taken to mean that double edged knives are illegal)
bowie knife is the sticky one. A good many fixed blade hunting knives could be called a bowie knife--especially since there's no definition of what the law means by "bowie knife".

[wdlsguy]

There's a new law defining how to measure the blade, and I'll be switched if I can figure it out.

I think you're referring to HB 2343. Looks like it died in committee.