[rbernie]

The following is a question with no right or wrong answer - it's just intended to help clarify some thoughts in my head...

Here's the setup: You've not yet tagged out and you've just been invited to a whitetail doe hunt on a friend's lease. You could use the meat in the freezer, so you accept. The terrain is Northeast Texas farmland-turning-to-scrub; rolling terrain that was once cleared but is rapidly being overrun by native scrub. The vegetation buildup is such that the average clearing is less than 100 yards per side with 5-15 yard deep sparse scrub in between clear patches. Shooting through the scrub between clearings is possible (and required) in most spots, but can be tricky. The longest shot on this land over the last several seasons has been 200 yards, and the average shot will probably pace out at around 125 yards unless you really want to test your stalking skills. The land is enclosed by natural and man-made barriers such that tracking a wounded doe will not be encumbered by concerns over the deer crossing a property line. Hunting can be done from stands or via stalking - your bud hasn't decided yet how this one will play out. You know this friend and you trust him; the hunt will be safe and legal.

You go to the rifle safe and survey your choices. All rifles are identical in layout and glass, all will shoot MOA or better in your hands out to at least 200 yards, and the ammo available is as listed below. You've shot each rifle and its available loads out to at least 200 yards and have the trajectory mapped. The available chamberings (leaving out the 22RF and 22CF choices) are:

1) 243 with 100gr SGK
2) 260 Remington with 120gr SGK or 140gr SGK
3) 7x57 with 120gr SPH or 140gr SPH
4) 308 with 125gr SPH or 150gr SPH or 165gr SGK
5) 30-30 with 125gr SPH or 150gr SPH FP
6) 7.62x39 with 125gr SPH or 150gr SPH
7) 30-06 with 165gr SGK
8) 300 WinMag with 180gr SGK

Which do you choose as your primary and which as your backup rifle, and why did you choose each instead of any other?

[Oldnamvet]

I would take any of them in any combinations EXCEPT for #s 5 and 6. 200 yards is stretching them a bit, although I know some people will talk about using them at those distances. The .300 mag is a bit overkill but better than than undergunned.

Personal choice? I love the 7x57 and 260.

[Shootcraps]

Don't Texas whitetail tend to be a bit small as well? I don't know much about #1-3. #4 would probably be a good all-around choice for that terrrain. I think Oldnamvet is right about #5&6. Even #7 might be a bit much for small whitetail.

[fisherman66]

You described our setup and location to a "T".

I shoot a 280, but almost all you listed would work fine. The 300WM seem like overkill.

Of those listed........308 I guess. I'm a little surprised you don't list 270.

When you say "backup rifle" I assume you mean second choice (or are you toting 2 rifles?)

2nd choice. 260 If I must pick off your list.

[killzone]

I'm a little surprised you don't list 270.

Whitetails are small but need deep penetration. At 200 yards you need a fast bullet however 300 mag is fast it is a way too hard hitting bullet for whitetails in Texas. A 243 will do too but I would take that as a back-up gun. In my opinion, I've had better accuret shots with 270 on a running deer. I was in MN up by Hibbing last season and I took my deer at 280 yards , he saw me and I shot him. The next thing I know, I was filling out my tag because if you ask anyone who uses 270 will tell you that if you hit him you know it is a done deal. The buck ran about 50 feet and collapsed. Any other caliber in the list will give you the confidance that willkill your deer but versitality is the key and you just cant forget about stability of your shot. .70 lovers will say that is the one because it gives you the confidance to make that 200 - 300 yard shot with a small hole on your game + it is kind of suprising to see that deer make a back flap when he is hit with the good ol' .270

[Shootcraps]

That's good info, cause I wondered why .270 wasn't on the list. I've heard you can take every game animal in North America with it.


Whitetails are small but need deep penetration.

But they are thin-skinned and don't have a layer of fat and grisle like a wild pig or bear, right? Isn't that why the handgun calibers are so successful?

[wanderinwalker]

I'd take #2 and #3, the .260 and 7x57. Man, I wish I had a 7x57... Either with a 140 and I'd be plenty happy. Heck, I'd be happy with a 140 in the .260 for game up to and including elk (at moderate ranges). My personal deer rifle is a .260 Remington in the M700 Mountain Rifle. Lightweight, handy and reasonably accurate. It will plunk 3 140gr Sierra Gamekings into just over an inch at 100 yards, reliably, from a cold barrel, fouled or clean, and can drive said bullet at close to 2700fps, which gives you good advantage of the BC and SD of those slugs.

[sumpnz]

I'd take any of the first 3. For the .260 and 7x57 I'd stick with the 120gr pills. That way you get a nice, flat trajectory, plenty of power for a whitetail doe, and minimal recoil.

The .30-30 and 7.62x39 may not have the legs for a humane kill at the far end of the likely range, and the full power .30cals and especially the .300mag are overkill. Unless you can shoot them substantially better than the sub-.30cal I would avoid the extra recoil (not that you really notice it when hunting anyway). Plus, to me anyway, the smaller calibers (esp the 6.5mm) is just more elegant.

[Bwana John]

7mm X 57mm Mauser with 140 gr ballistic tip @ 2800 fps.

I would not pick #1, #5, #6, or #8 for the conditions you outlined.

[Art Eatman]

The .243 with the 100-grain bullet will kill anything you're likely to see, inside of 300 yards.

I've killed some 20+ whitetails with my .243, using the Sierra 85-grain HPBT. Mostly neck shots, mostly inside of 150 yards. Most of them gutted out in the 85-pound to 110-pound range; typical of CenTex whitetails around Uvalde.

SFAIK, the 30-caliber 125-grain design is more for varmints than deer, but I won't say that as an absolute. :)

Art

[rbernie]

7mm X 57mm Mauser with 140 gr ballistic tip @ 2800 fps. Funny you should mention that - a 140gr 7x57 load @ 2750fps has been my standard go-to answer for this question so far. However, I always seem to wind up with a bunch of bloodshot off-shoulder meat, and I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to reduce my meat loss without resorting to neck shots. (I'm really not keen on the idea of dealing with CWD, however remote that possibility may be..) Anyway, of late I've been reconsidering my choice in caliber/bullet weight/velocity, and wondering if a move to larger and slower bullets would be worth considering.

Given an average shot distance of 125 yards, I'm curious why so many of y'all seem to think that a 150gr 7.62x39 @ 2100fps or 150gr 30-30 @ 2300fps would be inadequate. Given a kill zone of 6", the PBR of either of the two works out to just past 200 yards, and both will have better than 900ft/lbs of energy @ 200 yards. That would seem to be more than adequate to me - what am I missing?

[Northslope Nimrod]

Sounds like a great hunt to take a handy, lightwieght 30-30! 150 grains at 200 yards would be plenty. Go with 170 if you want. I'd rather use my 30-30 at those close ranges than my .243.

[Dr.Rob]

#7 sounds good to me... 'beware the man with one rifle.'

If I opted for the 30-30 I'd use a heavier bullet.

[pauli]

However, I always seem to wind up with a bunch of bloodshot off-shoulder meat, and I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to reduce my meat loss without resorting to neck shots. (I'm really not keen on the idea of dealing with CWD, however remote that possibility may be..)what does neck shot vs chest shot have to do with chronic wasting disease?

[griz]

I've used the 762 X 39 for a couple whitetails. By sheer chance, both were about 200 yards away. Although both fell quickly, it was clear the round was running out of steam at that range. So for that reason I would exclude #6 and #5 as well. Al the others would work fine. I would take the 7 x 57 or the 308 for the simple reason that they seem perfectly suited for the job.

[rbernie]

what does neck shot vs chest shot have to do with chronic wasting disease?A neck shot will likely result in the release of cerebrospinal fluid which can (note use of the word 'can') contaminate the carcass if the deer has CWD.

CWD hasn't been shown to cross over to humans, but frankly I'd rather look my family in the eye and tell them that it's a non-issue than find out down the road that our best science was incomplete on this.

[GunGoBoom]

It's all good, as the kid's say, but I'd probably grab the .260 first. Either the .243 or 7x57 as backup. Very interesting point about CJD and neck shots; hmmm.

[Art Eatman]

"A neck shot will likely result in the release of cerebrospinal fluid which can (note use of the word 'can') contaminate the carcass if the deer has CWD."

You bust Bambi's neck, everything quits, right then.

With zero blood pressure, I don't see how there's any movement of any fluids. The only meat near the spine is the backstraps and inner tenders, which are cut away; no bones left with that meat.

I just don't see any mechanism for contamination...

Art

[rbernie]

The concern that was presented to me was that simple gravity would allow the cerebrospinal fluid to drain out, and if the carcass was not hung and skinned/quartered in that position the fluid could contact either the carcass directly or be spread by the hands of the person doing the cleaning/quartering.

But that's a side issue to what I guess I was trying to elicit from y'all - will a slower/bigger bullet result in less meat damage than a faster/smaller bullet?

[Delmar]

Ok, just to be different, I'll go with the 308 as that is what I have hunted Texas bambi's for 20 years.
Never have tried the 125 grain loads but if properly constructed, should hold up okay. Lots of those 125 grain pills are for varmints, but if they have worked for you in the past, by all means.
Have used the 150 and 165 grain handloads, and have yet to recover a bullet regardless of the shot angle. Exit wounds out to 250 have been large. I like head/neck shots because bambi stops NOW, and is easy to clean. I don't hang em anymore because the big trees are scarce and its just become easier to clean em on the ground.

[ACP230]

Of those listed the .30-06 and .308.
Primary would be whatever rifle I felt most inclined to use that day.
I'd prefer 150 grain bullets to 165 so might start with the .308.

Overall, I'd rather use my .250 Savage with 100 grain soft points.
I've killed deer with it out to 200 yards and only a few have gone more than a few yards.

[Art Eatman]

Light/fast vs. heavy/slow: If you avoid shooting into the backstraps and hams, you don't really care.

No real usable-meat damage from a heart/lung shot. Same for the neck, really.

And that brings us back to shot placement and the ethics of a clean kill. :)

Art

[rbernie]

No real usable-meat damage from a heart/lung shot. I guess that I'm used to saving the shoulder meat, and I'm specifically having issues doing that with broadside shots on smaller deer using my current hunting setups and shot placement.

I'm not trying to espouse unethical kills - I asking folks that presumably have more experience than I how to best *avoid* blowin' things up excessively in the name of an 'ethical kill'. Your answer seems to be that I should alter my shot placement rather than playing with chamberings, and that's obviously a fine answer. But if I choose *not* to take neck shots, I'm fishin' for what my other best choices are relative to the other things that I can control - bullet caliber/construction/velocity, etc.

[sumpnz]

I'm not trying to espouse unethical kills - I asking folks that presumably have more experience than I how to best *avoid* blowin' things up excessively in the name of an 'ethical kill'. In that case, forget the .300WinMag. Use one of the smaller chamberings (#1-3) with a premium bullet (e.g. Barnes X, Partition, Bear Claw, ect) that will still expand in the smaller deer but not explode. Stay away from most HP's - except for the Barnes they tend to be designed more for varmints and will fragment rather quickly. Also stay away from the really cheap bullets as they will be more likely to seperate and cause excessive meat damage. Keep the velocities reasonable - fast enough that they'll still expand out to the longest range you expect, and give you the trajectory you want, but not so fast that the bullet fragments and falls apart on impact. Barnes X bullets have a reputation for expanding even at pretty low velocities (1600-1800 fps) and also holding together at close range velocities (3000 fps).

[Delmar]

rbernie-I can tell you from personal experience that at least in the 308 Winchester in 165 grain bullets, of which I have used Ballistic tips, Partitions, and Hornadys, that you are not going to have blow up issues with the bullets in either. All 3 make a nice, clean kill to the deer's chest regardless of the angle.

I used to use those fancy Noslers exclusively, but Art Eatman was kind enough to impart some of his wisdom and advised to try the Hornadys. You get twice the number of bullets per pack for less money than the Noslers cost, and I can hold them under 3/4 inch at 100 yards out of my rifle. The accuracy is good enough in my rifle.

For my handloads on the 165 grain weights, I am using 44 grains of Reloder 15-which is a max load, so you might want to start out around 40-41 grains and work up. It's one of the few loads I have found best accuracy at max charge-usually, my best groups come from backing off a few grains, and you will have to experiment for yourself.

I do agree with using premium bullets on marginal cartridges and/or the "death ray" cartridges which hold a lot of powder. In the case of the 308, you're not going to launch that bullet so fast that it falls apart on the fur-there's just not enough capacity to do it-at least not in a 165 grain weight. I once made a head shot on a doe from about 80 odd yards away-she was standing behind a salt cedar and it was the only part of her I could see. That 150 just about took her head off her neck-put the shot just below her ear.

The 165's on a broadside chest shot will drill a 30 cal entry and an exit about the size of a silver dollar, which is plenty good enough to drop them where they stand.

No matter which caliber you choose, and they are all fine calibers, the heavier bullets are not as likely to expand violently as the light ones.

I have a limited experience in 270 Winchester, but I learned quickly that the 130 grain bullets do more damage than I liked, and moved up to 140 grain handloads. They kill em just as dead without wasting a lot of meat.

Texas deer are pretty thin, side to side, and I have yet to recover a bullet out of any deer I have taken. Mule deer are thicker, but it would not make me change calibers or loads for that matter. Elk is getting into the range where I might consider a premium bullet-I want to try some of those Barnes-X bullets before I try to take a big elk. That bullet has a lot more to punch through.

[Dr.Rob]

"However, I always seem to wind up with a bunch of bloodshot off-shoulder meat, and I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to reduce my meat loss without resorting to neck shots."

Shoot lower behind the point of the point of the shoulder at the heart rather than at the lungs.

Of course, not every shot is a perfect broadside.

Too far back, you hit the liver. Too far forward you destroy the shoulders.

Aim small, miss small. EVERY bullet has a chance to exit the off-side.

[WYO]

I'd eliminate 5, 6 and 8 because of the stated ranges. Then, take a die and write each of the other five calibers on a side with the 6th being "your pick" and rolll it. I've got the .308 so I'd probably use that. If I were buying from scratch for that application, I'd go with the .260.

[rbernie]

There are some good tidbits in this - thanks to all for their suggestions and thoughts...

[Lonestar.45]

Since my personal favorite ( the .270) isn't on the list, I'd go with one of the two closest to it's performance, either the .260 Remington, or the 30-06. Dad used a sporterized Mauser in 30-06 for over 30 yrs and always got his deer, in terrain pretty much exactly as you're describing. I only got the .270 to be "different".

The .260 Remington has had me interested for a little while now--if I were to every put down my .270 BDL (which I'll probably never do), I'd go with that .260 in a Remington mountain rifle for Texas whitetail.

[Guns_and_Labs]

I'd go with the .260 Remington. It works great on blacktails in tight terrain.

For back-up, I'd go with the .30-06, only because it's ALWAYS my backup, regardless of the hunt.

[1911 guy]

I'd take the .308 with 150gr. Winchester Super X factory loads. My Savage really likes those. I'd take the "-06 as a backup because your description of terrain sounds like close shots will be nearly nill.

[DarthBubba]

A well described senario,

If I had to choose from the list given I would go with #4 the .308 for general shooting and #8 the .300 win mag when it absolutely has to be put down in one shot in brush at long range to save meat aim high on the neck at the base of the skull just behind the ear. If you miss you miss clean if you hit low you take out all of the veins and arteries in the throat and with a 180 grn. Bullet you will break the neck so no running or tracking.

DarthBubba :evil:

[Magnum Mike]

I'm not sure about the 7.62x39, I guess it's okay for short range, but for best long range shots, my first choice would be the .300 Win Mag, second choice would be the 30-06, or any of its cousins like the 270 Winchester or the 280 Remington. For ranges shorter than 300 yards, the .308 Winchester is an excellent choice.

Third choice would be the 7x57, in modern loads. I also like its cousin, the 6mm Remington.