How to shoot a Kahr


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bratch
September 21, 2005, 01:24 AM
I've got 2 Kahrs. A PM9 I picked up strictly for BUG/Pocket duty and K9 I got because it was a decent buy.

I can't shoot either one. I've been shooting handguns about 11 months. My first pistol was a 1911 and I have quite abit of trigger time on them. I've became pretty proficient with my 1911s. I've also shot my CZ75 and BHP some but not as much as my 1911s.

How do you shoot a Kahr?

I really like these pistols but put rounds all over the paper. I've heard to shoot it like a DA revolver but I have no revolver experience so that doesn't help me any.

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dfariswheel
September 21, 2005, 02:28 AM
DA shooting is hard to explain.
Mostly, it's a matter of just practicing until you learn how to do it.

Get a FIRM grip on the gun. Not so hard that your hand shakes from tension, but firm.

The trick is, to "roll" the trigger with a smooth steady pull.
Do not try to "stage" the trigger, no hesitating or jerking.

You just smoothly pull the trigger until you get a "surprise break".

Start out slow, and concentrate on smoothness of pull. Pull the trigger too fast when you're starting out, and you'll scatter shots.

Also, remember, the Kahr is a small "people shooter" not a target gun, so the groups will usually be bigger than a single action auto.

One thing you can do to help, is to buy a double action .22LR revolver. You can shoot a LOT more with the cheaper ammo, and this is how to really learn to shoot DA.

bratch
September 21, 2005, 02:35 AM
The DA 22 is a good idea.

How would the P22 work as a DA trainer?

I don't expect 1 hole groups but I'd like to keep everything in the X ring instead of everything on paper.

Honestly my shooting drops off quite abit if I pick up something that isn't a 1911. I can shoot my fullsize or 4" about equally well then comes the BHP/CZ and even farther down are my Kahrs.

Double Naught Spy
September 21, 2005, 03:24 AM
I don't know about dfariswheel's classification of the Kahr as a "people shooter," but the other information seems spot on with my Kahr experience.

One of the really nice aspects of Kahr pistols is that even though they are double action only, the trigger pull is or feels uniform throughout the pull until the break occurs. Many DAO for first shot DA guns have triggers with variable pull amounts throughout the pull. Some get harder to pull, some gradually and some towards the end of the pull. A few start off with a heavier pull that seems to lighten as you approach the break. When the pulls are variable, it is harder to learn proper pull technique. My Colt Pony is terrible in this regard. The majority of the pull is something like 10 lbs and then jumps to 13 in the last 1/8" of travel before the trigger breaks. That sudden increase causes me to pull harder and pull the gun off target slightly.

I don't like DAO triggers. However, between my Pony and PM9, I can shoot the PM9 as accurately as the Pony, but at 3 times the distance.

bratch, you say your shots are all over the paper with the Kahr. At what distance are you shooting? Don't expect to get groups any smaller than 2-4" at 15 yards, but your Kahrs should be capable of groups in that size range.

Mixlesplick
September 21, 2005, 04:36 AM
I grip my K40 as high as I possibly can. I also put a little piece of 3M grip tape on the front strap. Mostly what helps me is gripping it very high. Some of the skin in the web between thumb and index finger bulges up above the grip because I grip it so high. Don't let it get so high that you get bitten by the slide though. The sights are more steady now and my groups have gotten better since I started doing this.

Nematocyst
September 21, 2005, 05:09 AM
Please take this with a grain of salt since my K9 is still relatively new to me, so I've had limited experience with it. But i truly love it compared to what i traded for it. (That too, was a fine gun, but just didn't fit my hand. The K9 does.)

But even with my so far limited experience, I think Faris, Double Naught & Mix offer great advice; all their suggestions are what I've used so far with the K9:

Smooth, steady pull, grip up high enough to make the skin between thumb & finger "bunch up", but not so high as to be uncomfortable, tight grip but not so tight as to shake.

(Actually, with respect to that last point, I recently read some thread on THR that suggested this, and only partly tongue-in-cheek: grip so hard as to shake so that you experience shooting while shaking since you're going to be shaking anyway when crack-crazed BG comes at you with a {machete, rebar, shovel, whatever}, so you may as well practice now. Point taken.)

I don't get 4" groups at 7 yds, let alone 15. But it's OK. I get 6" groups, which includes the region of thorax that includes heart and lungs. I can double tap with it nicely.

And that's with less than 300 rounds so far.

I feel great about this K9. I can't say enough good things about it. Once I shoot a few 100 more rounds, I'll feel even better. Practice, practice, practice. BA/UU/R. {Hey, I've got tomorrow off. May be time to hit the range...}

The only thing I add is this: make sure the gun fits you. If the 1911 works for you, if it fits really well, then could it be that the Kahr is too small?

As I understand it, with a good fit, the trigger should hit that first crease in your finger, or the second section just past the crease. If not, it may not be the right gun for you (too small, maybe?), which could cause you to pull to one side because you're not able to pull the trigger straight back.

mete
September 21, 2005, 07:27 AM
Kahrs have a very nice DAO trigger about 7-8 lbs .But this is a very different trigger than the 1911. Pull the trigger back smoothly without hesitation. It will take practice and it's not designed as a target pistol.

Steelharp
September 21, 2005, 09:10 AM
Put it out in your target area, and shoot it with another "guhn"... preferably a scoped rifle... :D

Sorry, just not a Kahr fan...

halvey
September 21, 2005, 09:46 AM
Sell the Kahr and buy a 1911.

Or better yet, trade for it. ;)

bratch
September 21, 2005, 11:49 AM
I've actually looked into trading it for another 1911 I contacted a member on here about a Springfield Loaded but I'm thinking about keeping the K9 mainly for its nice size and I can get some good Kahr practice without beating up on my little PM9.

I'm all over the paper at 5-7 yards with the K9. No real resemblence of a group I'll have two shots touching in the 9 ring then 1 in each shoulder and 1 in the pelvis. I can shoot the PM9 better but not as good as I would like. To put it in perspective the day I had such problems with the K9 I shot the same target with my TLE and had 5 shots I could almost cover with a half dollar.

I've been seriously debating giving the Kahrs up due to my lack of ability with them but I don't think I can find anything to replace the PM9 as my pocket gun.

They feel nice in my little fat hands so I don't know if its bad ergos or not.

Next range trip I'll make a conscience effort to listen to the advice.

esskay
September 21, 2005, 01:59 PM
I recently bought a used P9, took it to the range last month and that thing is a SHOOTER! The twist though... the gun had been worked on by Yost so it most certainly is not stock. So I guess I'm in the minority here!

Jiml3
September 21, 2005, 02:17 PM
One method of practice that I have found very helpful in learning trigger control is, Place a quarter flat side up behinf the front sight. Point it at a spot on the wall and practice pulling the trigger without the quarter falling off. It takes time
but it works. Now that I am used to the dao trigger, I am very happy.

Before anybody else picks up on this, before practicing make sure the gun is unloaded!!!!

at-home-daddy
September 21, 2005, 02:21 PM
"...but I'm thinking about keeping the K9 mainly for its nice size and I can get some good Kahr practice without beating up on my little PM9."
I'd get rid of the the K9 -- and buy another 1911 -- and practice with the gun you're actually going to be carrying, the PM9. Rounds put through it won't "beat it up"...it'll smooth out the trigger and action and make you more comfortable and proficient with it -- shooting the K9 (even though its trigger pull is doubtlessly similar) will do neither.

bubbygator
September 21, 2005, 03:53 PM
Jiml3 is right; it's not about finger control, it's about hand (sight picture) control. Try some exercise to strengthen your wrist. If you get control of that, you'll get a consistent pattern - that you can then work on to get onto the bullseye.

That being said, I've heard that some have added a small pad to the back of the grip to very slightly increase the length of pull for a Kahr... changing the dynamics of the trigger finger muscle to more "straight-back".

pauli
September 21, 2005, 03:58 PM
How would the P22 work as a DA trainer?poorly.

safety on. pull trigger. safety off. pull trigger. for each shot.

did i mention the part where this will wear out the flimsy safety?

or you could practice your holywood decock, and hope you don't get thrown off the range for shooting the floor and ceiling more than the backstop ;)

Double Naught Spy
September 21, 2005, 04:36 PM
One method of practice that I have found very helpful in learning trigger control is, Place a quarter flat side up behinf the front sight.

I had tried it with the quarter balanced and the curved side up and tried it with the flat side down. I don't know why I never tried flat side up. I bet it will be much easier than curved side up.

Actually bubbygator, finger control can be a real issue with DAO triggers even with good hand control and wrist lock.

Lou22
September 21, 2005, 08:21 PM
I've probably put about 600 rounds through my PM9 but about the best I can do is put most shots in a 6" circle at 21 feet. Adequate for self-defense. I suppose more practice would tighten that up.

BTW, my PM9 definitely shoots tighter groups with most Remington over Winchester. Both Express and UMC 124gr shot identically well.

Lou

Gordon Fink
September 21, 2005, 10:53 PM
The PM9 is ridiculously accurate for a pocket pistol, so don’t give up.

Somewhere—probably here—I read the advice to shoot Kahr pistols “like double-action revolvers” with the trigger under the first knuckle joint. I’ve tried this, compared to a trigger press with the pad of my fingertip, and the results were interesting.

At short range, accuracy was about the same for both shooting styles, but my groups tended to open up more at longer ranges using the revolver-style trigger pull. However, revolver-style shooting does seem to allow a more positive grip on the smaller pistols (MK9, PM9, etc.).

Maybe I should add that I don’t use super-high-pressure ammunition.

~G. Fink

Onslaught
September 21, 2005, 11:27 PM
No matter how much I'm "anti-Kahr" these days, I will admit that the Kahrs I've owned were all EXTREMELY accurate pistols. My Kahr P40 could hang with my USP45, which is a BIG accomplishment.

I would suggest a LOT of dry fire practice... Aim at a target, and try to pull the trigger slowly while keeping the sights on the target throughout the entire trigger pull.

DARN-IT if I haven't STILL considered another P40 after all my polymer Kahr troubles.

Nematocyst
September 21, 2005, 11:56 PM
DARN-IT if I haven't STILL considered another P40 after all my polymer Kahr troubles. You too, huh?

Just before buying my K9, I did a lot of reading on THR about the P9's. That was actually my first choice; I looked at it first, liked the weight, etc. But after reading too many stories about pp's (polymer problems), I went with the K9. Heavier, but I'm actually glad for the weight. Helps with recoil, allows a faster double tap. And, from what I'm reading, a LOT less prone to problems.

Good idea also about the dry fire practice.

N~

albanian
September 22, 2005, 07:01 PM
"How do you shoot a Kahr?'

Practice.

Not being a smartass but there is no way around practice. There is a bit of a learning curve with the kahr trigger if you are only used to SA. There is also a bit of a learning curve shooting smaller pistols. When I got my first Kahr K-9, I was not impressed with the accuracy but I found that I got much better after some parctice and getting to know the trigger. Buy a couple of cases of 9mm and spend the next 6-12 months shooting it and you will get good with it.

I now can shoot my K-9s as well as many of my full sized duty semi-autos. The Kahr is worth the effort to get good with it. It is a amazing pistol. I consider it one of the best autos ever made and the very best 9mm single stack ever made.

9teen11
September 23, 2005, 12:01 AM
I love Kahr guns; I own 2. I have an Elite 98 with night sites in 9mm and .40. Excellent guns, excellent triggers.

GunGoBoom
September 23, 2005, 01:11 AM
I'm just impressed at how many handguns you've managed to accumulate after less than 1 year of shooting them!

I have a Kahr, and it's not making one-hole groups at 7 yards by any stretch, but I don't worry about it much as it is a carry gun not a target or hunting gun. Kahrs are easier to shoot well than a true double action, like that Mil Pro I had or a revolver, that's for sure. Practice, practice, practice. :)

Steelharp
September 23, 2005, 01:34 AM
Please don't misunderstand; I'm not trying to be snide or anything, but:

it's not making one-hole groups at 7 yards by any stretch, but I don't worry about it much as it is a carry gun

I know I'm just a youngster at this stuff (not by age, I assure you), but shouldn't it be most important that your carry gun be the one you are most accurate with? I mean, it seems to me that if paper is difficult at 7 yards, how's it going to be with a moving, ducking, shooting-back-at-you target? I would want to minimize the possibility of hitting store clerks, gas pumps, cars, innocent men, women, children, etc., whatever might be past my attacker by having my best shooter in my hand.

Educate me, please... that's what I love about this place.

bratch
September 23, 2005, 01:38 AM
I'm just impressed at how many handguns you've managed to accumulate after less than 1 year of shooting them!

Since October 13 of 2004 my handgun collection has exploded. Went from 0 to my current collection. I currently have a Kimber TLE II, Kimber Aluminum Compact, CZ75, BHP, Kahr PM9, and Kahr K9. I guess that works out to about 1 every 2 months.

Not real sure why I have them all and I probably could have used the money more wisely but hell your only young once.

bratch
September 23, 2005, 01:44 AM
I know I'm just a youngster at this stuff (not by age, I assure you), but shouldn't it be most important that your carry gun be the one you are most accurate with? I mean, it seems to me that if paper is difficult at 7 yards, how's it going to be with a moving, ducking, shooting-back-at-you target? I would want to minimize the possibility of hitting store clerks, gas pumps, cars, innocent men, women, children, etc., whatever might be past my attacker by having my best shooter in my hand.

I'm not sure what level of accuracy he was referring to but I agree accuracy is very important. I've been told you only retain about 60% of your accuracy under stress. So a 1 inch group might open up to 2 inches.

This is one reason I do not feel comfortable with my Kahr yet. I can put rounds where I want them with both of my .45s but not so with the Kahr. Even at 60% I feel I could put most of the rounds COM.

I strive to be as accurate as possible with all of my guns mainly to make up for lack of skills when the blood is flowing.

Nematocyst
September 23, 2005, 04:58 AM
Albanian +1. Practice may not make perfect (1 hole groups at 25 yds) but pushes one in that general direction. Trigger pull is so much of what it's about. BA/UU/R.

It was one or more of your posts that guided me to the K9. Thanks.

9teen11: can you tell me more, please, about "night sights"?

P. Plainsman
September 23, 2005, 05:43 PM
It would be interesting to know how well you do shooting a double-action revolver.

You might try this. Get hold of a good .357 wheelgun and load some nice mellow .38 Specials in it. (Or better, buy a .357 -- sorry, the thought of owning six handguns, with none being revolvers, makes me a sad panda.) Shoot some targets, using the same types of distances and drills you use with your Kahrs.

Quality revolvers these days tend to be rather accurate, especially given their price point. If you get the same poor results with a revolver that you do with your Kahrs, you know the problem is simply double-action shooting in general. The solution, as others have noted, is conscientious DA practice. Conversely, if your revolver targets are pretty good, then it's the Kahr in particular that disagrees with you.

Personally, I prefer my autoloaders to be single action or DA/SA, but I can shoot a double action revolver better than either. That was by no means the case at the outset; my DA shooting stunk for a while, until I finally started building some muscle memory and my shooting started to click.

It's a function of what one practices with the most.

albanian
September 23, 2005, 07:11 PM
Nematocyst-870,
Good to hear that you still like your K-9 and it was a match for you. Some people think they are too small but I remember your thoughts when you said you picked one up at the gun store and I had a feeling you would really like the K-9.

I am glad I was honest about the Kahr P-9 I had because sometimes I get over impressed with a new gun and talk it up too much. The P-9 did not impress me and even though it is a blow to ones pride to have to admit that a gun he just bought was a POS, it needs to be done to help others out. I still love my Kahr K-9s but the plastic ones will have to find other people to live with. ;)

Also, I like to carry IWB and as you know, I have been looking for a good holster. The Clipdraw is my answer. It is a metal clip that sticks on the slide of any auto and hooks on your pants or belt. It works for me so if you are looking for a thinner way to carry your already thin K-9, give the Clipdraw a look. It is $19.95 and comes with 5-6 extra pieces of tape so you can try it on other guns if you don't liek it on the Kahr.

bratch
September 23, 2005, 07:21 PM
I need to get a revolver I've been planning on it since I bought the first 1911. Was going to buy a 642 until I bought the PM9 and the list goes on and on.

It would be an interesting comparison between the DA wheelie and the Kahr though maybe I can find someone around here with one.

P. Plainsman
September 23, 2005, 08:00 PM
Love them wheelguns. 642 vs. PM9 would be a semi-fair comparison. To compare to the K9 you'd need something like a S&W K-frame or a Ruger Security Six.

Steelharp
September 23, 2005, 08:59 PM
I believe our own 45Badger has a 642 for sale right now...

Greymoor
September 24, 2005, 12:59 PM
My PM-9 is a very nice little pistol. If I do my part, at 7 yards, I can keep 'em in a 3" circle consistently and sometime much tighter depending on the ammo and other variables. The sights are the same as on my Sig so it is an easy change over for me.

The carry ability of the PM-9 is awesome. It is light, small and with 6+1 of 124gr.+P Gold Dots on tap I always have a handful of protection ready. My loaded PM-9 with a spare mag weighs less than my P229 empty.

I like my Kimber TLE, I like my Sig P-229 and I carry them also. But when it comes to working in the yard, a quick jaunt to the store, or a hot day / light clothes situation the PM-9 is my grab and go weapon.

Makes for a nice BUG too when warranted. . .


Sad thing is that I am now thinking about a Kahr P45 for those times when ya want a little bigger bullet :D Er . . . Is that a sad thing?

Lou22
September 24, 2005, 07:26 PM
I felt the same way you do. I also have a PM9 which I use for much of my carry. I got the itch for a compact 45, couldn't wait any longer for the Kahr, so I bought a Cobra Patriot which is very close to the Kahr in size and weight. Also a lot less expensive at $245 including shipping. I do get the occasional stovepipe with it, but only on the last round, so not a serious fault.

Lou

bratch
October 2, 2005, 02:47 AM
Went down to our farm today and shot the K9 again. The conditions weren't the best on my little impromtu range.

If I shoot it really really really slow I can get about a 6" group on a good try. The shooting was by no means up to defensive quality.

I really want to like this pistol I love the size I'm just getting discouraged with my shooting when using it.

I need to get to an indoor range and shoot in a little better conditions and see how I can do.

Majic
October 2, 2005, 07:29 AM
Bratch one of your problems is in 11 months you went from never shooting handguns before to learning to shoot and with 3 different trigger actions. That's asking a bit much of yourself.
Build up your hand muscles (especially your trigger finger) and concentrate on your basics. Above all else spend some time practicing with just one pistol. It will get better in time.

bratch
October 2, 2005, 01:29 PM
Majic I demand alot out of myself ;)

I've thought about concentrating on a single style numerous times. I just can't decide if I want to concentrate on the 1911 which I'm already pretty good with and like or the Kahr which I have little skills but love the package.

I guess I could always do 90/10 with the Kahr-1911 just to keep my 1911 skills up to par as I would still be carrying one while learning the Kahr. I'm just concerned that I WON"T be able to shoot the Kahr and all the time, effort and money would be for naught.

TC-TX
October 4, 2005, 02:52 AM
Would someone please define BA/UU/R for me? :confused:

hkmp5g17
October 4, 2005, 03:11 AM
Kahr's are nice guns! I know you're frustrated but..... Please don't shoot it! The impact of the bullet could damage it! :neener:

Nematocyst
October 4, 2005, 04:33 AM
Would someone please define BA/UU/R for me? TC, welcome to THR.

I asked the same thing when I first joined.

Buy ammo, use up, repeat.

Translation: practice until it's second nature.

Nem

TC-TX
October 4, 2005, 10:27 AM
Thank you Nematocyst-870 --

I love this one as I totally concur... What could Possibly be more fun? :D

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