[epijunkie67]

I know the 444 round is basically just an extended 44 mag round with heavy ammo. Is there anything similar in the .357? I guess it would be a .357 with an extra inch or so of case length and fire a slightly heavier bullet. Or would you just be shooting a 35 remington then?

[Bwana John]

Try a search for .357 Maximum, a older cartridge intended for handgun shooting at metal rams, pigs, turkey, and chickens

[JShirley]

I knew someone who necked a 30-30 to .357. Fired it from a reamed NEF. Good accuracy, fine close-range power.

J

[444]

Not that it matters, but that is a poor comparison.
The .357 magnum and the .357 maximum are two pistol cartridges. One has better performance than the other but not a lot. Both use the same powders and both use the same bullets.
A .44 Magnum is also a pistol round. It can be fired from a rifle but is still a pistol round. The .444 Marlin is a RIFLE round. It uses rifle powder and uses bullets designed for rifles used against big game animals. It isn't just a long .44 Magnum by any far stretch.

[Brian Williams]

yep the 360 wesson, 357 max, and 357 supermag

the progression is as follows:
A 38 Special will chamber in a 357 magnum.
A 357 magnum will chamber in a 360 Dan Wesson.
A 360 Dan Wesson will chamber in a 357 Maximum.
A 357 maximum will chamber in a 357 SuperMag.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153781&highlight=360+wesson+maximum

[Sam]

Brian,
You forgot the:

38 Short Colt that will chamber in a
38 Long Colt that will chamber in a
38 Special.

Sam

[mtnbkr]

I knew someone who necked a 30-30 to .357.

There's a 35-30 wildcat out there IIRC. There's also the 357Herret, which is a chopped 30-30 case reformed and sized to 357. Supposedly gives near 35Rem performance in short barrels.

Chris

[Dr.Rob]

I can assure you 357 Maximum has a lot more oomph than a 357 and is good for more than plinking steel pigs.

Though I've never seen a rifle (maybe a custom barrellled T/C Encore?) chambered in it.

I'd agree that the .444 is a lot more like a .45/70 than a pistol round.

[Okiecruffler]

Who says the 444 isn't a pistol round? :evil:

[444]

I do.

You can shoot it out of a pistol. You can shoot a .45/70, .223, and .30-06 out of a pistol. But they are rifle cartridges being fired out of a pistol.
:neener:

[spartacus2002]

Hmmm, seeing that other thread on the .50beowulf-packing momma, and seeing this one makes me think.... what if someone made an AR in .357 Maximum?

[mtnbkr]

what if someone made an AR in .357 Maximum?
It would probably easier in 35Rem since it's a bottlenecked, rimmless cartridge.

Chris

[Gewehr98]

Marlin and Remington developed it in 1964 to give their .44 Magnum leverguns extra punch. To do so, they simply stretched the existing .44 Magnum cartridge 1 inch to 2.105 inches, leaving all the other case dimensions the same. Remington even used their existing 240gr JSP revolver bullets when loading the new cartridge, and still offer it under their R444M loading. It took some time and nudging by .444 aficionados to get ammo manufacturers to load bullets more suited to the 2000+ fps velocities of the new cartridge. Once Marlin changed the rate of twist in their leverguns to 1-20", bullets heavier than 270 grains were able to be used, including the 300gr Speer Uni-Cor. This allowed the .444 Marlin to finally approach the effectiveness of a real rifle cartridge, the .45-70 Government.

Now, granted, when one has a username like .444, there's some sacred territory being defended. But when I can buy a BFR revolver chambered in .444 Marlin or .45-70 Government, the distinction between a rifle cartridge and handgun cartridge is truly blurred. With respect to the .357 Remington Maximum, I can buy or assemble a Thompson Contender or Encore carbine that will duplicate the ballistics of a Marlin 336 in that venerable rifle cartridge, the .35 Remington. If I ever get off my backside and rebuild a derelict .357 Magnum Winchester 94 into a .357 Maximum, I'd wager one would be hard-pressed to see a difference between it and the Marlin 336 in .35 Remington.

Then again, is the .22 Long Rifle a handgun or rifle cartridge? (regardless of what one tells the sporting goods cashier at WalMart) ;)

[41 Redhawk]

FYI the 357 max and super mag are the same thing.

I'd wager one would be hard-pressed to see a difference between it and the Marlin 336 in .35 Remington.
True, unless you handload the 35 Rem up to it's potential! Just like the 45/70, the 35 suffers for being chambered in weak actions.

[Brasso]

A more direct comparison similar to the .44mag and 444marlin would be the 38-55win and .375win.

[Okiecruffler]

It's not exactly true that they left the dimentions the same on the 444. The 444 is a tapered case, tho not by much. While you can fire a 357 mag in a max, you can't, or shouldn't do the same with the 44mag/444.
And even tho' it looks like I might have started the pistol vs rifle cartridge thing, and I love my 444 Contender, the 444 is most definately a rifle round.

[GunGoBoom]

Why would anyone neck a .30-30 up to .35 when you could just chamber it in .35 Rem instead? Very similar and readily available brass & ammo. Some people just MUST be different, I guess. :) Hmm, an AR upper in .35 Rem - that would be cool - could it work?

[mtnbkr]

Why would anyone neck a .30-30 up to .35 when you could just chamber it in .35 Rem instead?
Some people want a rimmed cartridge I guess.

Hmm, an AR upper in .35 Rem - that would be cool - could it work?
Dunno. Why bother though, there's so many other good cartridges for the AR platform. Even a 9mm if you must have a 35cal. Some people just MUST be different, I guess. ;) :p

Chris

[Gewehr98]

Just like the 45/70, the 35 suffers for being chambered in weak actions.

Since the .35 Remington isn't chambered in Trapdoor Springfields, which actions are weak? I'm thinking of what the round was offered in, namely the Remington 8/81 autoloaders, 14/141 pump rifles, Model 7, 720, 600 bolt-actions, and Marlin 336 levergun. Since the .35 Remington cartridge was developed by John Moses Browning in conjunction with his Model 8 autoloading rifle, I'm real curious where the perceived weakness is.

Granted, some folks think the .30-06 is weak for it's case dimensions, and Hornady does a good business with their light magnum line of hopped-up cartridges. Anybody can handload a given round to extract better performance, it just depends on how much pressure the brass and containment system can handle. We have a guy online here at THR who advertises .357 Magnum velocities out of a hot-loaded .380 ACP. His idea of what constitutes a weak action would probably make SAAMI cringe. :eek:

[41 Redhawk]

My understanding is that the recoil operated semis can not handle higher preasure than the factory loads at about 30000cup. Marling 336, bolt guns and the 760/7600 Rem can do better than that. Buffalo bore is selling a load for the Marlins using a Speer 220FP at 2200 fps whereas Remingtons 200CL is only 2000fps.

[JShirley]

Some people want a rimmed cartridge I guess.

Maybe especially if they're using a single-shot, break-action rifle! :)

[Gewehr98]

My understanding is that the recoil operated semis can not handle higher preasure than the factory loads at about 30000cup.

That John Moses Browning purposely downloaded the .35 Remington cartridge as he developed it for his Model 8 rifle? (Which by virtue of design operates in a very narrow range of velocities and pressures) In other words, John Moses pretty much dictated what the "factory load" would be. Or would it be more feasable that somebody's found a way to safely hotrod the load since 1906 for use in a gun that's not so ammunition-sensitive? ;)

[41 Redhawk]

Ummm, I can agree with that. It sounds like you are saying the same thing only differently. Seems like the Trap Door was built around black powder 45/70 loads and hot rodding came later. (Like the 35 Rem). :) I think we both agree they can be safely pushed in proper firearms.

BTW Buffalo Bore's velocity is in a 18" barrel.

[El Hombre]

FYI the 357 max and super mag are the same thing.

Actually they are not. The 357 Supermag as designed by Elgin Gates has an case OAL of 1.610". The Dan Wesson model 40 revolver was desinged to chamber this round.
Ruger did not want to extend the frame on their revolvers to handle the larger cylinder required, and since they were working with Remington on the commercial development of this round, the decision was made to shorten the case to 1.605" and was called the 357 Maximum. Not alot of difference, but it did cause the big heavier bullets (that the cartridge was desinged to shoot)to need to be seated deeper in the case to fit the smaller Ruger cylinder.
357 Supermag ammo loaded to max OAL will not chamber in the Ruger, but will in the Dan Wesson, and I believe also in the Seville revolvers.

An interesting point, although the Dan Wesson model 40 (& 740 ) revolvers use the longer Supermag cylinder, the guns are marked "357 Maximum" thereby adding to the misconception that the two rounds are the same. This is probably because other than an initial run of Supermag length brass available through IHMSA, most all commercial brass available has been 357 Maximum length. If you want true Supermag length brass, you have to make it.

There was also a round introduced in the 60's called the 357 Atomic. It was in between the 357 mag and 357 Maximum in length. I don't remember the exact OAL. I would think it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of the 360DW. I remember mention of it when the Maximum was introduced as people that owned them were excited because Maximum brass could be shortened to use for the obsolete caliber.

[Hobie]

I put together my experiences with the .357 Max Contender Carbine in an "article" (http://specialtypistols.ottllc.com/sp10.html). It is a wonderful cartridge.