Fist-Fire shooting style

[Peetmoss]

Anyone have any opinions on the Fist-Fire shooting style? From what I have been reading it seems like it would be a good defensive style, am I wrong or being stupid?

[Shawn Dodson]

I'm unaware of anyone who I believe is credible (e.g., a nationally renown firearms instructor I'd trust), and who has been trained in the Fist-Fire system, to provide a qualified opinion about it. Even then I'd prefer a consensus judgment from several qualified firearms instructors with first-hand experience. I'm aware of a recent gun magazine article about Fist-Fire, but a gun magazine writer's unqualified opinion is insufficient, in my opinion.

One of the problems in getting qualified people to review Fist-Fire is the on-line discussion board personality of the "inventor" himself. His overzealous claims tend to turn-off a lot of people.

[Wakal]

Watched the "inventor" of that "system" get run out of a gun board frequented by some of the world's best shooters.

Well, run out on a rail would be more accurate.

When confronted with solid questions by real talent, he broke and ran like a screaming blissninny confronted by a fact.

That said, he has some good ideas, but when pressed for details of actual technique and "why this not that," switches to "buy my book" in short order. Compared to shooters who win real "deep water" shooting matches (as opposed to IDPA), major matches with real talent (as opposed to those Montrose-based matches like Handgunner and Winchester with no high-end shooters), he really isn't that good, magic shooting system and all.

Practice. Borrow a copy of "Practical Shooter", watch "Shooter Ready" and the Barnhart's tapes, and practice some more. Don't be sucked in by egocentric hype :rolleyes:



Alex

[Gomez]

I've not trained with D.R. Middlebrooks. I don't know anyone, personally, who has trained with D.R. Middlebrooks. But, I did receive a copy of his FistFire book from my dear sister-in-law for Christmas. After reading D.R.'s book, it becomes obvious that the FistFire system sprang forth fully and completely from the mind of D.R. Middlebrooks. I'm not saying that to be funny, it's just that his understanding of some of the techniques that he does not use are not fully developed. For instance, he criticises the "modern isocelles" because it requires "great hand stength" to make work. Well that is absolutely untrue. The "mod iso" grip is a very neutral grip relying on a "locking of the tendons of the wrist" rather than applying a convulsive grip with the hands. Middlebrooks explains that he rolls over the shoulder of the support hand to allow the tendons in the wrist to lock out. Well you don't have to hyperextend your shoulder to lock out the wrist.

Before I'd spend money on a training class, I'd reccomend buying D.R.'s book and another book on the modern dynamic isocelles and comparing what they have to offer.

[This is not ment as a shameless plug for my bosses book:), I can reccomend a few others as well.
Surgical Speed Shooting by Andy Stanford
Shooting From Within by J. Michael Plaxco
Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals by Brian Enos]

The above order is what I've found to be the most useful to read them. Andy's book is a straight forward, quick read, with a focus on defensive shooting, Plaxco's goes into a few more topics in a very "western/logical" progression and Enos's is much more "zen-ny", but an absolute goldmine of information.

[Correia]

Wakal I read those threads on BE. My gosh they were entertaining. :)

[dadman]

Where, or what, is 'BE'?
Is this where 'he' was run out on a rail?
Is the Fist-Fire method similiar to Ayoob's Stress-Fire, where the strong arm is extended and the the face is against the strong arm bicep? I prefer this stance over Mod Iso, feels more consistent.

[Wakal]

Correia,

Yep, those were some entertaining threads...I don't recall laughing that hard since Lawdawg posted his latest story.

Back on topic...I've shot with, against, and RO'ed the man. He is a capable shooter. His system, though...

Gomez posted a good list of books to start with, and in the right order. I started with Brian's Practical Shooting...whew...great book, but I would rather have started a bit less on theory and a bit more on fundamentals. Like The Book of Five Rings, you pick up something different every read-through :)



Alex

[Correia]

BE = www.brianenos.com

Brain is a really good and knowledgable competitive shooter. As has been said he is very "zen". :) His book is probably my favorite on shooting. The chapter on indexing is worth the price alone.

I'll have to read Andy Stanford's book. I haven't seen that one yet.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have looked into a variety of shooting styles in the last three year and even had a limited amount of instruction on some of the less main line styles. As near as I can tell, most have some merits but none are all purpose. If you spend as much time practicing your tried and true older style as you would learning a new style, you will find yourself a helluva lot better with your older style.

Learn what you can about each. Take from each those aspects that work for you in your particular situation. Each method comes about in part because somebody had some shortcomings with whatever method they learned. No one method does all for everyone and you don't have to claim to be a shooter of one particular method. All that matters is that whatever you do works well for you and that you can do it well and in a timely manner.

I really liked Clint Smith's take on some of the bizarre new concepts coming out. To our class, he said something along the lines of, "I don't care what you call it. All that matters is that you are able to put your rounds on target, where you need them, as much as you need them as many times as you need them until the threat is gone. No ninja stuff is required. It is a lot simpler if you bypass all the ninja cross bar fist fire RECON Special Forces Spetnatz point shooting while using the Force and just shoot the bad guys and shoot them well."

I find his sentiment is rather profound...just shoot the bad guys and shoot them well.

[dadman]

Just looked at the BE site. Looks like some good info.
Is the Middlebrook style similiar to Ayoob? I don't think the StressFire has the shooter rolling the shoulder. Main feature of Ayoob/StressFire is extending arm out so the elbow is straightened, with face against bicep area.
Whatever works.

[garrettwc]

I am reading Surgical Speed Shooting right now so I will vouch for Gomez' recommendation on that one.

I haven't read the others yet but have seen them recommended a lot so I guess they will be next on my list.

[Shawn Dodson]

I second Double Naught Spy's advice.

Master the basics first. This means being able to perform a technique, ON DEMAND, without having to consciously think about what you're doing. This applies to basic gunhandling safety, presentation from concealment, clearing stoppages, shooting positions, marksmanship, etc.

Once you have the basics mastered, then you can consider, and better appreciate, a different technique and how it might work for you.

I believe one must train in a technique to absolute boredom and then drive-on and overcome the boredom by focusing on minute aspects that allow refinement and improvement. When you have reached this level of proficiency with the techniques you currently use, you can better evaluate other techniques.

Most people never reach this level of competence and, without a solid skills foundation, it produces lack of confidence in themselves. Hence there's always an interest (and market) for a new, unheard of until now, super-duper tactical shooting technique that requires little effort to learn, and which caters to the indolent in the same manner as all those new, unheard of until now, super-duper diets that require little effort to lose weight.

I prefer an uncomplicated, "system-level" approach to the battle-oriented techniques I use. I want a technique, especially gun manipulation and shooting techniques, to apply to as many different situations as possible, to eliminate the need to think under stress and to increase my efficiency. Hence although I may find a technique that is superior to one I currently use, if it doesn't fit my system-level philosophy of technique consistency, I don't add it to repertoire of techniques. The idea is to keep my mind free to solve tactics problems. I don't want my mind to be preoccupied with performing basic techniques and fail to observe and orient to a rapidly changing situation.

In my opinion, Jeff Gonzales' new book, "Combative Fundamentals: The Comprehensive Guide Towards Mastering the Pistol and Carbine," presents current state-of-the-art "system-level" basic skill philosophy and technique.

[Gomez]

Dadman;

Nope, Middlebrooks technique isn't much like Ayoob's Stressfire turret. Ayoob curls both thumbs down, establishes a crush grip with the hands and wedges his nonshooting hand index finger up under the trigger guard, along with locking both elbows out. I think he's only tilting the head onto the bicep to address cross dominant eyes. Middlebrooks is using a variation on the "flying thumbs" grip like that used in the mod iso, but he is rolling out his nonshooting shoulder to lock out the wrist of the nonshooting hand. If you take a look at his website, you'll see some pretty good pics and video clips of his way of doing things. Middlebrooks site is www.tacticalshooting.com , as I recall.

Shawn;

Jeff Gonzales' book is more "general purpose/broad spectrum" than the shooting books that I listed earlier. But it is an awesome book. Jeff is one of the few guys who have written, and written well, about the need to integrate gun skills and nongun skills. The only thing that I thought was missing from the text was that he doesn't discuss 360 Guard in it and I've become a big fan of it.

[Shawn Dodson]

Yep, I like 360 Guard too. Took Jeff's Combative Pistol class (with a bunch of GlockTalkers) at FAS in late September 2001 and he apparently hadn't developed the technique yet, as it wasn't part of the class. "Combative Fundamentals" was published shortly thereafter. I took Jeff's Close Quarters Fighting course in July last year (with the same crowd of GlockTalkers) and learned 360 Guard there.

In my opinion the techniques in "Combative Fundamentals" are THE BASICS.

My only complaint about "Combative Fundamentals" is the lack of photos. I've been fortunate enough to train under Jeff and I can visualize the techniques he conveys. Although he does a wonderful job painting pictures with words, the lack of sufficient supporting imagery can be a disadvantage for some. The book has several photos, but it could certainly use more. I'd like to see a training DVD that supports the book.

[jimcon]

Unfortunately, I have bought and read this book. If you want to shoot IDPA it may have some value and save some time. the hard part is getting past the author's ego and his appartent need to trash every other shooting style and technique. When you read it the author has tried to totally reinvent the wheel. While some of his ideas may have some value, he has thrown out the baby with the bath water.

Some examples of what I do not like are:

He states that you should fire at the end of the draw stroke, whether you can see the sights or not. (Big liability issue)

In a 160+ page book, he devotes 30+ pages to magazine changes. He recommends that you should not look at the threat while reloading, because your eyes will only be off the threat for 1 or 2 seconds. He says that it more important to do the reload right than see the threat. I wonder how he reloads in the dark???

[Porter Rockwell]

Hello, I'll bump the topic hoping to the Fistfire side of the discussion.
Having read some of several website discussions there were a few links showing that Middlebrooks had actually won several speed shoots against most or all of the top shooters as did a couple of Fistfire students??
Didn't Middlebrook get kicked off GT for issuing a simple challenge of a man on man against the so called online experts?
The man may have unpopular opinions but it would appear that he can backup the talk, BTW, Montrose ain't exactly a backwoods match folks.

[Peetmoss]

I would like to thank you for the book recomendations. I have purchased Andy's book and read it cover to cover. Good book I don't know if everything he says will work for me but it was very informative. I plan on going through it again and trying his techniques one by one. I also purchased Brian's book it came today. I read a liitle bit of it. This I don't know about this guy. From just the preface I get the feeling that he thinks he is the Yoda of Handguns. I will give it a shot though. Again thanks a whole bunch for the recomendations.

I would love to attend one of Andy's classes are you guys planning on having any handgun classes anywhere near NY anytime soon?

[jimcon]

There is no doubt that Brian Enos's book is in a class by itself. It is great but it is very hard to read and full understand. If I had to pick only one writter. I would pick Jim Crews. His writing is clear and easy to understand. He covers aspects of shooting that all the rest have ingored. His four books, in 3 ring binders, cost $39.99 and soft bound $35.95. You can get all four books for $19.95 on a CD in PDF format. You can not print them but you can read them on your computer.

For those of you in the Northeast, Jim will be teaching his "Intermadiate Defensive Handgun" course at the Lone Pine Hunting Club in Hollis, NH from June13 through 15, 2003. Hollis is just outside of Nashua, NH. Contact me directly if you are interested.

[Wakal]

Montrose is a backwoods match, sorry so much...no high-end bottom-feeder shooters even bothers to show up anymore.

And this past year, Jerry and Bud didn't even bother to show up....so no high-end round-gun shooters either.

If DR could hang with the Limited Nationals or the Street Gun Nationals, with the best shooters in the world, then maybe I would be impressed. However, "winning" against a bunch of marginally-classified shooters in a brother-in-law match like the American Handgunner just doesn't impress.

And I'll say it again...backwoods match. Just noticed this in passing (after reading AH yesterday)...the junior shooter who won B-Limited and high-junior at the '02 Handgunner only took 22nd (twenty-second) "B" at the '02 Texas State Limited. So...the very best B-Limited shooter at the American Handgunner was whupped like a dawg by twenty-one B-class shooters at a real match.

Backwoods.

And DR wasn't kicked off BE's forum...he is welcome, as is everyone interesting in shooting better, to post...but he slunk off with his tail between his legs after refusing to answer the hard questions from some of the real world's best shooters...shooters who are always learning :p


Alex

[Albert Shear]

First, I am not D.R. Middlebrooks so please do not take your displeasure with him out on me.
I have trained under D.R. on three occassions. I am an average shooter who always is looking to better myself. I have also been to LFI-1 and LFI-2.
His methods revolve around defensive use. This is probably why he does not care for "speed competions" and focus' on ones like IDPA. The Fistfire system(with my limited knowledge) is geared toward the defensive use of a handgun. From his guard position to full extension or anywhere in between firing can be accomplished effectively. It is all one stroke. The weak side arm is locked out(full extension), the off hand is rotated forward like a samurai wrist lock with thumb straight out along the frame. This becomes your "pointing" device to target. Point your thumb and the gun follows. Strong side thumb is on top. Pressure on the grip is done with a sort of downward and inward of the little fingers. A crush grip is not necessary. The "pinkies" keep the gun from recoiling upward. The basic "grasp" is done from presentation and really doesn't change much from guard to extension.
I tried this system with a Glock 36 I had taken the stock sights off to replace with nite-sites. With no sights on the gun, indexing the target with my thumb I was able to place all 7 rounds in the -0 center of an IDPA target at 10 yards.
Is his system for everyone? Of course not. But it is for me.
thanks for listening,
Al

[Harold Mayo]

Good discussion.

I've read stuff on the Middlebrooks site but have never seen it done or done it myself BUT...

Whether Middlebrooks can beat Leatham or Enos or whoever isn't really the point. The TECHNIQUE might be a better technique (my OPINION is that it is not, but I could very well be wrong since I've not actually been around it) than what they use. Let's face it, folks, most of us using the Weaver or Isoceles against Rob Leatham or Brian Enos using the Middlebrooks technique aren't going to win because the guys LIVE shooting and are well-practiced in the rules of what is, basically, THEIR game. BUT, because you are highly skilled in one technique and can beat someone using another doesn't mean that your technique is the superior one...it generally means that you are more practiced in your skills than they are.

A good test of the techniques might be to take a couple of TOTAL novices and train each of them in one of the techniques and then see what happens. Even then, though, one technique might give a certain degree of skill fairly quickly but not allow further degrees to develop as quickly as another technique...OR...what works for some might not work for others.

Anyway, please keep in mind that everything in the world gets in a rut and people don't think that it can be improved upon until some guy comes along with an unpopular idea, gets laughed at, and then he or someone using his idea or a derivative of it shows up the "establishment" and HIS idea then becomes entrenched until someone else comes along to knock it down.

[fastbolt]

The current state of affairs in defensive handgun skills training is eerily familiar to what was occuring with the martial arts in the US back in the late 60's & early 70's.

Occasionally the message was over-shadowed, or even completely forgotten, due to the eccentric, outrageous and flamboyant personalities of some of the people involved ...

"Ancient", "secret" & "closely guarded" methods vied for supremacy against "modern", "eccletic" & "streamlined street fighting" methods ... with "traditional" dojos perpetuating stylized methods which discouraged questioning ...

Dojo & style hopping was frowned upon, but increasingly became more acceptable ... and was a mixed blessing.

Experts ... real & imagined ... were plentiful.

Jealously & dogma often cluttered things, but attracted loyal followers anyway ...

We endured that period, somehow ... but I really, really hope history doesn't repeat itself.

Then again, everything that's old now, was new at sometime ...

Then again, I wouldn't have taken the path I chose if I hadn't experienced those times and reacted to them in the manner I did ...

I'm still trying to decide if that was a good thing. :scrutiny: :D

[Wakal]

From watching similar threads play out across the internet, the issue isn't with FIST FIRE or any technique whatsoever, new or old.

The problem is that the "style" is overly hyped by a showman who says "This works because I, and shooters I trained, won all these competitions"...and then lists a bunch of second-tier and backwoods competitions as sort of a proof-of-concept. Ummm...no, sorry, that doesn't follow. What that means to me is that FIST FIRE will let you win anything lacking high-end shooters...who, since his technique let him and his shooters win what they competed in, must have SUPERIOR technique since he can't produce examples of folks using his techniques winning big shows.

So...FIST FIRE, used diligently, will make you the winner...unless you try to swim in deep water with the big boys (and girls)...

That said, there are some good concepts in his book (concepts which are also found in other, more well-marketed books listed in this very thread), but the showman "me good everyone else bad" attitude destroys what little message there is.



Alex

[Porter Rockwell]

I had to double check where I was after reading the various snide attacks on Paul Millers Montrose Matches.
Is it not true that Paul has done the shooting community as a whole a service?
How many of the naysayers here promote their own matches, the shooting sports need self promotion instead of attacks like I've seen here.
The High Road Indeed!

[Wakal]

Texas State Limited '01 (planned, built, CRO), Texas State Limited '02 (CRO), Texas State 3-Gun Championship (planning, building, and CRO)...shall I go on? I'm no big name or big shooting talent, but I get out and about now and then ;)

I like Miller's matches (speaking of the Winchester and the Handgunner, not the Cowboy matches, Paul's first love) and have been attending them for years, but I don't let my personal feelings get in the way of the truth. He has let the matches slip a long way from what they used to be, and the top talent voted with their feet (well, with their lack of participation, but you know what I mean). The Handgunner went from a great "who is who" man-on-man match of the best shooters around to a veritable "whose is that" list of second-stringers. Sure, winning the Handgunner is still impressive, but it isn't a first-rate well-attended match like any of the USPSA Area matches, Nationals, or even the big State matches (see my previous "Number 1 "B-Limited" in the Handgunner took 22nd "B Limited" at the TX ST LTD" comment).

I'd make it better if I had $2.5M to buy Paul's place...it has been on the market for the last few years...but I just don't have that much in petty cash :p


Alex

[benzh]

Disclaimer: I developed and host www.tacticalshooting.com & I am a personal friend of D.R. Middlebrooks.

Since, I have never posted on this board, I think it would be useful to know where I am coming from. I was privileged to proof the book FIST-FIRE: The Martial Art of Combat Pistol Shooting (several times!). I have trained at TSA 3 times now. I have read 90% of the major "combat handgunning" books (enos, plaxco, stanford, suarez, gonzales, etc.) I have trained under some of the big name trainers. I about every month or so and am classified as Expert in IDPA. I figure I am a pretty ok shooter.

Here's the bottom line. If you are like most people you have limited time and funds to train. You probably tried a couple of techniques, stances, etc. And now you shoot with a combination or under one "style". So, my point is you are going to have some technique. The issue is which one allows you to perform the best. If you are logical type, you will weigh pros and cons of each method. If you are more emotional (& I don't mean that negatively) you will be more swayed by other people’s opinions, personalities and the such. So, in my case, the question became which method do I devote the majority of my training time to.

Over the past 7 years, I have been fortunate to learn a lot about defensive handgunning. I learned personal awareness from Tom Givens (www.rangemaster.com). I learned weapons manipulations and long gun training from Ross Sanders (www.weaponstraining.com) and I learned a method of defensive pistol shooting that I think is excellent and materially different from the other 200+ hours of training that I have received.

A couple of things make Fist-Fire different:

It is based not solely on "competition only" techniques. It is based on defensive handgun situations. i.e., situations you might face on the street.
It is a "system". Some people of abhor this part! Yes, it is touted as the "best" but only because D.R. started with a clean slate and wanted to develop a better technique. I respect that. Since it is a system, I believe the concepts are logical and methodical. More importantly, the methods taught are repeatable. See the next point.
A major component of Fist-Fire is based on "point-shooting." This is largely misunderstood and subsequently misquoted and demeaned. I disagree with D.R. on this point. Yes, pointshooting is not aimed fire. But what he really teaches is how to get an index, which may result in "point shooting". But what is really does is always you to point shoot at closer distances and at longer distances acquire your sights faster. THIS IS A MAJOR POINT: He doesn't just briefly discuss indexing as some trainers do (a lot don't even recognize that indexing is important). He teaches you, step by step, how to get indexed, how to re-index when you lose it (say after a magazine change) and how to be indexed in various situations (movement, cover, etc.)
The system is built on weapons retention. Thus the method of indexing taught in Fist-Fire is critical. The system allows a fluid progression from weapons retention shooting (say <3 yards) to precision shooting (say headshots at 15 yards).
One poster did not feel the competition at the American Handgunner meant much. I will say this. That match was important in the development of this system because it is the ultimate test of speed and accuracy. It does not involve running (i.e., the more athletic the better you do). And the fastest, most accurate shooter wins. I know at the Metal Mania that was held at Mid-South Institute a couple of years ago, that shooting steel plates is ALL about speed and accuracy. I appreciate that. But Fist-Fire is applicable to normal folks that carry and also IDPA.
It is materially different than what others teach. You will need to determine for yourself if it is better. But, I think it is highly unlikely that you can give it a full eval by reading these forums or just by buying his book. I have trained under at least 3 people who have written books. I read their books before I took a class from them. There is NO way to get what a trainer is teaching just by reading. It certainly can be helpful, but damn hard to understand the mechanical manipulation of a tool, just by reading. Kinda like learning to fly or play golf by reading a book! At the risk of being criticized, you need to take a class on Fist-Fire. OR, if you are in the Memphis area, I would be glad to spend a few minutes with you explained what I know about it (and I am far from an expert in the system).
On D.R. Middlebrooks. Yes, he is arrogant (Webster has defined arrogant as Making, or having the disposition to make, exorbitant claims of rank or estimation; giving one's self an undue degree of importance; assuming; haughty;. He is aggressive and determined in his advancement of FIST-FIRE. He did build it from the ground up. These are his ideas. He does believe it is the best and he has the determination, courage and balls to backup his believe in this system. Yes, he has made challenges to his method of shooting. Yes, he has been abrupt on the forums. But, when anyone can take pot shots at an expert (expert defined as one with the special skill or knowledge representing mastery of a particular subject it does get rather annoying! D.R.'s attitude is simple, if you have a better way show me, beat me, but just saying so is not conclusive. I should say, and those who have only read the internet and have not met him in person may find this hard to believe :), but D.R. is incredibly generous, kind and lives a rather humble life. He’s a heck of a nice guy in person! It is annoying that some say "well D.R. says to pay for the book or pay for a class", hell he has to make a living like the rest of us. He has spent the better part of a lifetime shooting. He believes he has a better mousetrap AND he is willing to teach it to others! Trust me, you don't make a fortune training folks like us for a couple of days a year!


If you made it this far, I apologize for any of my rambling. I did write a better review of my 2nd class at the TSA. You can read it here: http://cwd.net/TSA-Range-Report.htm .

At any rate, if you like, feel free to call me or email me to discuss Fist-Fire.

Respectfully,

Howard Benz
Memphis, TN
901.374.782
benz@mem.net

[Porter Rockwell]

That is exactly what I was looking for!

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Wakal wrote: “If DR could hang with the Limited Nationals or the Street Gun Nationals, with the best shooters in the world, then maybe I would be impressed…

Here’s a couple of match results for you Wakal:

2000 IDPA Nationals:

1. Ernest Langdon 176.41

2. David Sevigny 177.17

3. D R Middlebrooks 178.96

4. Rob Leatham 179.92

2001 VA IDPA Championships Top Overall Scores were:

1. D.R.Middlebrooks 111.02

2. Earnest Langdon 111.10

3. Scott Warren 111.30

4. Todd Jarrett 111.35

I'm sure there's a couple of names there you may approve of...

Wakal wrote:

"And DR wasn't kicked off BE's forum...he is welcome, as is everyone interesting in shooting better, to post...but he slunk off with his tail between his legs after refusing to answer the hard questions from some of the real world's best shooters...shooters who are always learning

Actually, I left because Brian Enos was editing and/or deleting my posts. This is one of many deleted ones I wrote:

"I don’t recall seeing your name ahead of ours on a scoreboard anywhere. If you’re going to judge us, our shooting or our technique, at least be prepared to gear up and show us... "

Same goes for you, Sir. Seems like guys who can’t shoot always know the right and wrong way to do things. If you can show me and my instructors a better way to DEFENSIVELY shoot a handgun, I’m all for it. But you’ll have to put your gear on first.

Stay safe,

D.R. Middlebrooks – Director
Tactical Shooting Academy (TSA)
http://www.TacticalShooting.com

[Erick Gelhaus]

Mr. Middlebrooks-

Greetings and welcome, sir.

Question, since the developement of your system, how many real engagements by your students and the hit percentages please?

Also, if they were LE (local, state, fed) please contact me by e-mail with the pointer information for their agencies.

We are in the process of evaluation various systems.

Thank you.

Erick

[Wakal]

DR,

Nice. You left BE's board in a huff when you couldn't quit slinging ego instead of facts. Your ranting was deleted, as it had no place in a serious discussion of shooting fundamentals.

Once you came back and started talking facts, didn't you notice how much interest in your technique was generated? This THR.org thread, as you should have noticed from the date stamps on the posts, was started when you huffed your way out the BE door, not when you came back and started a great technique discussion thread.

Gear up? Most amusing, tough guy. I'm just a puny little sandbaggin' B shooter, but maybe Barbera remembers me (since you don't). We have shot together (and I've RO'ed you quite a few times), although your skill level is much higher than mine. Then again, I've only been playing this game for a bit over two years...which is why I hang out a lot with the smart and talented folks who are kind enough share wisdom, not throw ego rants at the drop of a oversized hat.

That said, I'll buy the beer if you will autograph my copy of your book at the Racegun Nationals in Bend this year.




Alex

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

No Top Shooters at the American Handgunner World Shoot Off’s you say? Here are some guys I had to get by in order to make it to the finals:

Jerry Miculek – Overall World Shoot Off Winner who beat Jet Dioniso (The Stock Gun Champion has to face the Open Revolver Champion in the Grand Finale. The winner goes up against the Open Auto Champion. So, Miculek beat Leatham who won Stock Gun and then went into the finals against the Jet and beat him).

Bud Bond - Open Revolver Champion (the guy who beat Jerry Miculek the year you were there)

Ted Bonnet – Two Time World IPSC Standard Division Champion

Mark Hanish - Shoot Off winner at the 2002 Limited Nationals

Bryan Wilhite - Top 16 shooter at the Limited Nationals (with a Glock)

Vance Schmid - Bianchi Cup Stock Gun Champion

Everett Brunelle - Overall World Shoot Off Winner (with a Stock Gun)

As far as Enos goes, the last time I saw him shoot the Handgunner (back when he was a fully sponsored Pro-Shooter) he beat in Stock Gun when Ted Bonnet won and then got beat by Julie Nowlin in the finals (different format back then). He left with his tail between his legs and never came back.

Later,

D.R. Middlebrooks – Director
Tactical Shooting Academy (TSA)
http://www.TacticalShooting.com

[garrettwc]

This thread is going down hill fast:(

The truth is that if there was one "perfect" technique, you would know what it is by the line to get into the range. I tend to believe more as Mr. Benz outlined. There is something you can take away from every training class. You take a little from each lesson, mix them all up to suit your needs and that becomes "your" technique.

As a newbie to training, I would find this thread more helpful populated with posts of "this works for me because" or "I tried it and this didn't work for me because".

The banner at the top of this page says "The High Road". Can't we agree or disagree on the merits of the system, and check our personal issues at the door?

We now rejoin this thread already in progress....

[Wakal]

DR,

And how many of those great shooters on your list SHOWED UP at the Handgunner last year?

Hmmm?

You are confusing the Handgunner of years past with the Handgunner of recent memory. It is but a shadow of past glory...and winning a shadow is but a shadow of victory. See my previous comment about the "number one B-Limited" shooter at the Handgunner only taking 22 (twenty-second) B-Limited at the Texas State Limited, for a nice specific factual-type example instead of hyperbole.

My beer offer still stands. I'll be shooting both the Limited and Open matches.




Alex

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Five of the seven I mentioned were there last year Alex...

Comparing IPSC to the World Shoot Off’s is apples and oranges, two different formats. IPSC is run and gun while the World Shoot Off is Stand up and shoot in Man against Man Duels.

Little Tanner Cunningham finished right behind you in C-Class at the WSO’s. This year he won B-Class. He’s a little runt but a really good kid. So, why are you making fun of him?

The fact of the matter is I’ve been winning World titles in Stock Gun and IDPA there consistently since ’99. And what have you won or done? Nothing. All you can do is criticize the better shooters. This is exactly same kind of crap that goes on other forums.

On the Tactical Shooting forums we don’t edit people’s posts. We make them use their real name and if they talk trash like you just have, they have to back it up at the range. No hiding behind keyboards. If you can’t shoot, shut up and listen to those who can. I like that format better.

I'm outta here...

D.R. Middlebrooks – Director
Tactical Shooting Academy (TSA)
http://www.TacticalShooting.com

[Erick Gelhaus]

Mr. Middlebrooks-

Ok, guess I'm confused. I'm the moderator here and I did not edit anyones post, especially not yours. If that happened, let me know and we will get to the bottom of it.

As for folks not using aliases, I'm not real fond of it - I'd prefer at least a first name - but then this is not my board.

Erick

[Wakal]

Make fun of Tanner? Sir, please do not put words in my mouth. I like Tanner and enjoy shooting with him very much. However, the fact remains that while he won B-class at the Handgunner, he took 22nd "B" at a state-level IPSC match. I was remarking on the level of competition at IPSC matches, and his example came readily to mind.

I've been asked to avoid further conversation with you, so please have fun without me.

However, my offer of beer in exchange for your autograph on my copy of your book still stands. See you in Bend.



Alex Wakal
IPSC L2484
SASS 21509
IDPA A17008
NRA TC/CRO

[okjoe]

Here is some information that relates to DR's comment on censorship.

Censorship is alive and well, and practiced by many of the Wizards in OZ.

I was banned from the now defunct TFL for being an advocate of Point Shooting for CQB use. I was also banned from GT by good old DOT (a gun instructor and moderator), for advocating Point Shooting and stating that those in charge and gun instructors who teach sight shooting for use in CQB situations, are responsible for their students being shot and/or killed in CQB situations. Who else???

NYPD police combat studies show that Sight Shooting fails in CQB situations. It is like a faulty airbag that won't deploy in a head on collision. http://www.pointshooting.com/sop9.htm

Even the US Army teaches Point Shooting for CQB use at < 5 yards and for night firing. It is called Quick Fire Point Shooting. This is unknown to most and/or skipped over lightly in most Sight Shooting vs Point shooting debates. It even gets only a very brief mention in the US Army's combat pistol training guide. http://www.pointshooting.com.folly.htm

However, for the millions and millions of home defenders in the US, < 5 yards is a very realistic in home distance to be concerned about. And using a pistol beyond CQB distances, except in rare situations, could according to what one reads on the web, be an unlawful use of deadly force in self defense.

I also have had posts and threads deleted from BE's site. He states that his site is for COMPETITION shooting, not self defense shooting.

And good old DR and his sidekick Howard, have banned me from his site. He states that AIMED P&S which I support and which works just fine is a deathtrap. Yes, censorship is alive and well in the US of A.

Check out http://www.pointshooting/guntests.htm for guntest info on AIMED P&S.

What DR says and what is, do not always coincide.

DR says Fistfire is the best, and that a competition challenge is the only way to back-up that something will work.

What DR has accomplished, is to make known in the greater gun community at large, and against great resistance, that Point Shooting is valid and viable.

[Art Eatman]

"I was banned from the now defunct TFL for being an advocate of Point Shooting for CQB use."

No, sir.

Nobody was ever banned from TFL for advocacy of any style of shooting, with any sort of firearm. Such advocacy has no reference with the written rules of TFL or THR. Banning most often occurs as a result of a lack of repentance in the event of personal attacks. There is a written record in our archives of the specific cause in each and every ban.

As to which style of shooting is best? IMO, there is no such thing as "One size fits all." It seems to me that one should develop enough skill to get a hit ASAP. If inside some personal-skill distance, sights are probably not needed. Outside that distance, sights become Good Things. Only the individual can know.

One against one? That's a wonderful way to find which of two people is faster--and style might even play a part. But self-control, self-discipline, "psyching down" instead of "psyching up"--these will do more to ensure survival in dangerous situations than any style...

Art

[okjoe]

Thanks Art.

I had asked for the reason or reasons why, and I was never provided it or them.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Okjoe-

Art got here before I could. To reiterate, you were not banned because of your advocacy of point shooting.

As for the rest, check your PMs.

Civil & articulate discussion is welcome here; less is not.

[Porter Rockwell]

Hello, I believe you need look no further than the martial arts community to confirm that one on one is a time honored test of mixed skills.
Watch the USA Judo team compete with the Japanese, it's not nearly as simple as technique vs strength but it's man on man as it's been for hundreds of years!
Have you not read Musashi?

[Mute]

Uh....two people shooting at static targets is not exactly "one on one" competition in the way martial arts sparring would be considered "one on one." The two shooters aren't shooting at each other. That changes things quite a bit.

[Tim Burke]

NYPD police combat studies show that Sight Shooting fails in CQB situations.You posted this over in the Tactical Forums and one of the resident SME over there explained the NYPD data here. (http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000983.html)
I guess he was wasting his time.

[Art Eatman]

Porter, I agree with you as regards martial arts. Halfway smartmouth, though, gunfighting isn't your usual contact sport. :) To build on Mute's point, distance and "pre-game" tactics seem to me to be as important as any certain style.

Stipulate for the moment that Fist Fire is the absolute best. I'd bet that a Chip McCormick or a Brian Enos, using a traditional Weaver stance, would beat me if I were using Fist Fire. That's why I say that head-to-head is not necessarily a way to test the comparative merits of systems.

FWIW, Art

[okjoe]

TB, he did respond and I appreciated that. I have made and received some responses in regard to my request for study info, and I will make additional inquires concerning combat studies said to have been made by the LAPD and Miami Dade.

In regard to the validity of the SOP 9 studies, here is part of an e-mail that I sent to a party that I exchange e-mails with.

He trains police, and happened to be told by an associate of his on the force that the SOP-9 reports are doctored and are of little value.

E-Mail snippet:

.........I don't doubt that some reports were and are doctored, but given the thousands of cases involved, and the time span of years and years, it would be difficult to do that across the board and over the years.

Perhaps the Lt is a closet Sight Shooter, and perhaps not.

If it is true, then shame on the NYPD, and on the FBI and police in general if no one else has or is studying those situations scientifically.

Giving [our national police force of about] 600,000 men and women lethal weapons to use with no followup studies to measure their effective use and develop improved means and methods, is a bad joke.

Bad and lethal for the cops, and a bad joke on the public who has to pay for the results.

Not mentioning the human losses involved, there is data that says it is very expensive to treat shot cops or replace them when shot and killed or disabled, and to pay for legal consequences. That alone should be cause for studies.

Tell me that I am wrong, that someone is in control in police departments, that anarchy does not reign, and that ................

End of snippet.

I also say, and WHO IS LOOKING OUR FOR THE WELFARE OF THE MILLIONS OF GOOD FOLKS WHO HAVE A HANDGUN AT HOME FOR SELF DEFENSE???

I was a worker bee, Supervisor, Manager, Senior Staff Officer
, Branch Chief, Executive Officer at one time or another in 30 yr+ career with a government civilian agency, and as such, I am somewhat familiar with how things work.

In my opinion, because of the number of cases involved in the SOP 9 studies (over 6,000 cases were studied in the 1970s), you can throw out lots of individual cases or hundreds of them, and the findings will still be valid.

For example:
1. One finding was that the shooting distance in 4,000 cases was less than 20 feet.
2. In 70% of the cases, sight alignment was not used.
3. In 10% of the cases, the officer was not sure what was used.
4. In 20% of the cases, some type of aiming was used.

Another was that after a review of 200 cases, they were unable to relate an officer's ability to get hits in combat, to range qualification scores.

Over 6,000 cases were studied during the 1970s.

In 4,000 cases reviewed in which the officer survived, the distance involved in 75% of them was less than 20 feet.

And so on and so forth.

A digest of the SOP 9 study is available on my site as mentioned above. There is lots of other info on my site and its free. Most of it supports Point Shooting for CQB distances and much of it is backed up by scientific and objective data, published papers, or such things as the US Army's Combat Pistol Training Manual.

Look it over if you like, and because of the info that is there, there is no need to hash and rehash it here.

[Art Eatman]

Some miscellaneous data and musings:

I've enjoyed shooting for many decades, not just years. I first rode "Buddy Patrol" with the Austin, Texas, PD in 1973. I was a prime mover in starting Austin's first IPSC club in 1981, when IPSC was much more like the IDPA of today. Opinion: The average LEO is not particularly interested in developing a high level of skill with his handgun.

We offered a Free, No Entry Fee, for all our IPSC matches, and offered to institute a revolver class to any and all LEOs who cared. None ever showed up. This offer was via flyer and word of mouth.

I know there have been improvements in interest and training, but I get the impression that the negative points raised in SOP-9 will continue. To me, regardless of style, the problem lies in the mix of administrative attitudes and public perceptions about the use by police of any weapon. These tend to inhibit any extensive training...

Art

[Erick Gelhaus]

Gentlemen-
Take it back on topic please. The topic is: Fist-Fire shooting style

Not the SOP-9 reports. Start a seperate thread on that, please.

Erick

[Trebor]

I have no dog in this fight, but I do have a thought. Instead of arguing about whether competition such as IDPA, etc is a good way to determine if a technique is valid, why not develop a more pratical test? How about a real "man vs. man" test using simunitions or something similiar?

Heck, you don't even need to have each of the people representing the competing styles fight each other head to head. You could set it up a couple scripted simunitions scenarios using other shooters as the "bad guys" and have each of the competing shooters expousing the various techniques shoot it blind (ie; without seeing the other one shoot). You might not be able to determine what technique is "best" in an absolute sense, but you should be able to tell if any certain technique falls apart in a real world sense. If somebody is well trained in a certain technique, and uses that technique in the scenarios, any problems they have in successfully completing the scenarios that were caused by the technique they used should become apparent.

I'd be a lot more interested in seeing the results of this kind of test than an IDPA match bulletin or some steel plate shoot.

Trebor

[Marty Hayes]

Trebor:

The problem with what you propose is two-fold. First, shooting style tends to go out the window when dynamic man-on-man exercises are held. SEcond, how does one then assess the quality of hits?

Realistically, most shooting problems in the real world are pretty simple. It is the tactical end of things that more likely than not resolve lethal conflicts, the occasional exception not withstanding.

[atek3]

Time to resurrect this thread. It was pretty offensive the first time around, lets see if it can be toned down a bit.

Fist-Fire, Bullshido or Not?

atek3

[bradvanhorn]

The bottom line... yes, FIST-FIRE is the real deal.

FIST-FIRE is proven in IDPA and speed shooting competition to be as good or better than anything the top professional shooters are using. For recent examples, look at 17 year old Daniel Horner, D.R.s protégé, who at 125 lbs. soaking wet is competing against and beating top professional shooters:

2003 Steel Challenge World Speed Shooting Championship results:

IDPA Division (overall)
1. Daniel Horner
2. Matt Burkett

2004 Winchester World Challenge results:

Stock Gun Division (overall)
1. Rob Leatham
2. Daniel Horner
3. Dave Sevigny
(Note: Daniel and Dave were in IDPA trim, Leatham shot a longslide with a speed rig)

IDPA Division (overall)
1. Daniel Horner
2. Dave Sevigny

2004 American Handgunner World "Man vs. Man" Shoot Off results:

Stock Gun (overall)
1. Rob Leatham
2. Dave Sevigny
(Note: Dave was in IDPA trim, Leatham shot a longslide with a speed rig)

IDPA Division (overall)
1. Daniel Horner
2. Dave Sevigny


Another example is Rick Simes, a FIST-FIRE instructor who has been runner up behind Dave Sevigny for the past two years at the IDPA Nationals. Rick shoots a [compact] Glock 19, whereas the competition is generally shooting full-size guns.

FIST-FIRE is a good thing, but you must have an open mind... 'nuff said.

[atek3]

looks hot. any rebuttles?

atek3

[Wakal]

Those are all "stand in one place and shoot steel" matches (and the same steel each and every year, in the case of the Winchester/Handgunner back-to-back same-course-of-fire match(s)).

Steel matches are so cute. Like practical shooting without the practical :)

Please post some practical-style (IPSC/IDPA) match finishes. USPSA Area Championships, USPSA National Championships, ISPC World Championships, IDPA State Championships, IDPA World Championships...anything along those lines would be just fine (and actually mean something). Rick's second place finish at the IDPA nationals is a good start, but according to this thread there should be dozens of folks Fist-Firing their way to victory ;)








Alex

[Double Naught Spy]

I went to the web site. I have to admit to being sort of amused by the Fist Fire Shield ranking and how it corresponded with martial arts, but hey, it is what they do there.

I read Daniel Horner's great statement that after just 5 days of Fist Fire training that he was able to qualify as an IDPA Master. Very good, but he didn't qualify as an IDPA master with just 5 days of training. He was already shooting long before that and had a solid foundation for shooting well. If Fist Fire could turn novices into IDPA masters after just 5 days of training, we would all be giving it a try.

As for that testamonial and others given on the web site, I have yet to see any testamonials put forth by the person(s) or company selling and item or method that have anything negative to say about it. Of course the testamonials will be glowing. Promoters of the products and methods would be stupid to volunteer negative testamonials.

On top of that, think back, just how many gun classes have you read about posted on the gun forums that paint the class in a negative light. Pretty much nearly everyone claims to have had a good time, learned lots, and found the instructors to be A#1.

I am not sure of the repeated comments about Horner's wet while soaking wet. It was mentioned in this thread and at Middlebrook's web site. His weight and whether he is wet or dry isn't relevant to anything. I've watched champion female shooters smaller than him handle bigger guns. It isn't his weight that is impressive. What is impressive is what he has accomplished at such a young age. To do what he has done has taken a lot of time, focus, and dedication that goes well beyond 5 days.

Maybe Fist Fire will catch on and be proven over time as an effective combat method superior to others. Whether new things are really miracle ammo, miracle guns, or miracle technique will be something proven out by time. A lot of new things come and go that were billed as super great and better than what already exists. Some manage to stick around. Very few of those remain unchanged. Some only get partially adopted. After all, new ammo, guns, and techniques often do have something to contribute even if it isn't the whole package.

[Matthew Temkin]

The only question that concerns me is how does it preform in actual combat?
All the rest, to me, is meaningless....

[Island Beretta]

I have reviewed the fist fire system esp. since I saw Daniel shoot once and I was impressed.

I think it is the same basic technique that we use: indexing the gun in the center of the body and presentation on target and dealing with deviations to the norm, moving etc. - it's the same basics.

The differences start with the finer points e.g. wrist placement, tension points etc.. It will work for some, it won't work for others.

Personally for me, I look at the pictures of Daniel (seeing him shoot you won't notice, he is fast) and I see too much joint locks and rigidity esp. in the surgical shooting stance, but he is getting the results.

I see KC Eusebio shoot ( around Daniel's age group) and he seems more relaxed and again he gets the results..so as I said it works for some, it may not work for others..

I remember when I started shooting years ago it was drilled into me: front sight focus, 1 eye open and palm-supported grip. If I shot otherwise and missed then I was told it was because I did not follow instructions; if I did not miss however I was told it was a lucky shot. Today I shoot freestyle and there are times when I need all 3 together or parts thereof but it varies with the challenge I am presented with- nothing is cast in stone!!

The point is time will tell if the fist-fire technique is da bomb!!

[bradvanhorn]

Alex - I'm sorry you don't like the format and perceived quality of the matches cited here; there are plenty of IDPA wins as well (duly posted at D.R.s website). I guess I'm just more impressed with the accomplishment of competitive wins over guys like Rob Leatham, Dave Sevigny, and Matt Burkett than you are. No big deal really, we all have our preferences and opinions.

Double Naught Spy - Your skepticism is noted. I admit to being skeptical myself when I first looked at the website. I wanted to attend a shooting school to improve myself, but couldn't justify the thousands it was going to cost me to go to a big name facility, such as Gunsite or Thunder Ranch (or others). I did some internet searching and came across the TSA site, and as I said, I was a bit skeptical. However, I found a testimonial from a Marine I'm personally familiar with, Capt Justin Dyal. Capt Dyal used to run our CQB school, and was at the time of his testimonial a FAST Platoon Commander. I had previously watched him shoot, and he is a great shooter. His testimonial is what got me convinced to try a FIST-FIRE course. Our CQB school already teaches some techniques similar to FIST-FIRE, but D.R. has taken the system to a whole new level. After my first day of class I was convinced FIST-FIRE is a superior system for me, and I'm convinced the military could effectively use it as well.

Matthew Temkin -
The only question that concerns me is how does it preform in actual combat?
I am but a novice, but after 16 years in the Corps and a couple trips each to Somalia and Iraq, I've seen some combat. Going into combat with a handgun is suicidal in my opinion, but sometimes that might be all you'll have. Nevertheless, if you can help me convince someone to give me a battalion of Marines to train in FIST-FIRE, then take over to Iraq, I'll gladly do it, then we might get the results you're asking for.

Island Beretta -
I think it is the same basic technique that we use: indexing the gun in the center of the body...
Same basic concept, maybe, same basic technique, no. Indexing, yes, on the center of the body, no. I won't describe it in detail since it's D.R.s copyrighted material. There is no question there are similarities between what D.R. has devised and existing techniques, but similar is still different. Also no question that not everyone can adapt completely... to any one technique or another.

The point is time will tell if the fist-fire technique is da bomb!!
How much time is needed? Yes, there are still only a small number of FIST-FIRE shooters, but those shooters have been winning matches for six years now. To placate Matt, I know competition is not combat (trust me, been there), but if your technique sucks under competition then it will likely suck in combat. The opposite may or may not be true, but to discount it simply because we haven't been able to try it, and don't want to change the status quo, is misleading to people who are looking for opportunity to improve their shooting skills.



In my opinion, people who automatically discount FIST-FIRE are doing themselves a disservice. D.R. is a dynamic, personable, and very technical instructor. If you like to shoot, and want to improve, then give TSA a try. I haven't met all D.R.s current/former students, but I have met more than a few, and not one I've met has expressed any dissatisfaction with their training.

Regards,
Brad


Disclaimer: No personal insult is implied or intended in my post. Also, for every rule there is an exception, so what's good for me may not be good for you. I still think FIST-FIRE kicks butt. Thanks for reading this through.

[Bob Hundley]

"I read Daniel Horner's great statement that after just 5 days of Fist Fire training that he was able to qualify as an IDPA Master. Very good, but he didn't qualify as an IDPA master with just 5 days of training. He was already shooting long before that and had a solid foundation for shooting well. If Fist Fire could turn novices into IDPA masters after just 5 days of training, we would all be giving it a try." Double Naught Spy





DNS,

I have been a Range Officer at Daniel's local club(www.ncrr.net) for over 4 years and have seen the improvement that Daniel made using FistFire.

I dug up some old classifiers to show what I'm talking about.



DANIEL HORNER 6/16/2000 SSP 140.61 SS

Summer 2000 met DR for the first time.

DANIEL HORNER 10/20/2000 SSP 102.19 EX

DANIEL HORNER 12/17/2000 SSP 92.86 MA



The results are clear.





"Those are all "stand in one place and shoot steel" matches (and the same steel each and every year, in the case of the Winchester/Handgunner back-to-back same-course-of-fire match(s)). "
Wakal



How many Steel matches have you won? :p



Bob Hundley

[GigaBuist]

I'm totally unqualified to give ANY opinion on htis matter. I'm only coming in my questions based on observations in "playing around" a little bit with some of my handguns at home here.

It seems to be very comfortable and offer a great degree of control when kept in close. Without having formal instruction my technique is probably a bit off... but I did notice something.

With a small pistol (RAMI was in my hands) I noticed it was rather "easy" to have my thumb pretty close to the muzzle. This is a fairly small auto loader, but with my Keltec P3AT if I tried doing this I'd DEFINATELY have something hanging out past the muzzle. Since I'm a simple minded fellow I'd be wary of training myself like this knowing that sometimes I've just got a little pocket pistol at arm's reach.

Comments from people that know the technique on this?

Second -- I don't have a revolver handy, but does it even work with them? I only see examples with autoloaders on the website.

Again, any observations from people that know the technique on this?

Thanks.

[bradvanhorn]

GigaBuist -
It seems to be very comfortable and offer a great degree of control when kept in close.
This is absolutely true, whether in close or fully extended. Island Beretta mentioned that the surgical shooting postion looks very rigid, but it isn't rigid in a bad sense; if you can do the technique, then you don't experience tension, but in fact feel much more relaxed and stable. I've demonstrated this with some of my Marines, and they felt the difference instantly (or so they told me; "doesn't that feel better?", "yes Gunny!"). It helps to have some instruction vice trying to imitate from pictures, but it sounds like you've already got the basic idea.

With a small auto you could definitely get your thumb pushed out front. I've watched D.R. shoot a small .380, and he didn't have any trouble, but I didn't think to look at the position of his thumb. I personally haven't tried it with my P3AT, but now I have good incentive to take that gun to the range for some testing. I'll get back to you with some additional thoughts.

I haven't tried FIST-FIRE with revolvers, but D.R. mentioned to me that the technique is not well suited for revolvers. I'm sure there is a way to adapt, but D.R. designed FIST-FIRE with autos in mind, so I'm not sure how to proceed. I'm shooting with D.R. in a couple weeks, and I'll bring along my 686 to do some experimenting.

I see Grand Rapids under your handle. My family lives up at Canadian Lakes, and I'm going to be up that way in about a month to visit. If you're interested maybe I could meet up with you and demonstrate some of the techniques. Any opportunity to shoot is good for me :)

Regards,
Brad

[7677]

I'm also interested in the real world results of Fist-Fire. It may be great for competitions where it has a track record but I have not observed a single reason yet to make me want to use it as a defensive technique. I do not like the guard shooting stance. FLETC teaches the same stance and with raid gear/winter clothes can get in the way and cause gun malfunctions. We modified it so the gun was further out then what is shown on D.R.'s site. Furthermore, I do not see anything he teaches different then when I learned the steps of the draw. If you have a proper draw you should be able to shoot from any point of your draw. Your index should be that your bodies centerline is squared towards the target and your eyes are focused on the spot where you intent to place the bullet. I noticed that he does not show any one handed techniques. In the real world you can't go around with both hands on the gun so why omit one handed shooting techniques from a so called "system of defensive shooting"? From what I've seen Fist-Fire is not for me as I've explained above however if it works for others then more power to them and they should use what works for them. There are some parts of fist-fire that appear to have merit and I would be interested in seeing a actual demo of fist-fire but the only offer I've received has been buy the book.

[bradvanhorn]

7677 -
I do not like the guard shooting stance. FLETC teaches the same stance and with raid gear/winter clothes can get in the way and cause gun malfunctions. We modified it so the gun was further out...
The guard position is designed for weapons retention, and it is extremely difficult to attack. Partial and full extension positions are quite easy to disarm when opponents reach contact distances. I teach weapons disarms and retention for the Corps (as weak as our syllabus is), and in my opinion the guard position is a critical element of the system. I understand your thoughts on the guard re: malfunctions. I've shot the guard position improperly more than a few times now, and the slide has jabbed me in the chest a few times as a result. However, even with the slide banging my body, I've never experienced a malfuction. I suppose tac gear could cause greater interference, but unless you're operating alone doing CQB (another suicidal move in my opinion), you would probably be in at least a partial extension position (a modification you've implemented in your system).

In the real world you can't go around with both hands on the gun so why omit one handed shooting techniques from a so called "system of defensive shooting"?
One handed shooting, both strong and weak hand, is taught in FIST-FIRE, but it is not pictured on the website. In my opinion, FIST-FIRE does an excellent job of addressing one-handed shooting, as well as transitioning from two hands to one hand, and transitioning from strong hand only to weak hand only (and vice versa).

I would be interested in seeing a actual demo of fist-fire but the only offer I've received has been buy the book.
Well, I don't know how to help you except to say you should go to TSA and spend a day or two with D.R. Or, ask D.R. where you could find a FIST-FIRE instructor near your home, and spend a day or two with that person. If you're ever in the Norfolk area (but soon to be Camp Lejeune area), I'd be happy to get together with you and demonstrate some of the techniques.

Regards,
Brad

[brownie0486]

If I'm not mistaken, the system was developed by a gamer, for gamers, to game with.

I'd rather stick with A/F's point shooting system, McDaniels QK point shooting system [ both one and two handed ] as they have real world track records of winning on the streets.

Like 7677, I see nothing really "new" or revolutionarily relevant from their website which would get me to change what has worked for years on the streets by others over the decades.

I don't discount the system as effective though it would be hard to tell from a website and not actually training in the system.

Show me something "better" than what I have used for a few decades and I'll change. Until then, I think I'll pass.

Robin Brown

[7677]

bradvanhorn,
I thank you for the offer and I may one day take you up on it. I’m also glad to hear that he teaches one handed techniques.

[bradvanhorn]

brownie0486 -
If I'm not mistaken, the system was developed by a gamer, for gamers, to game with.
No, that's not the case at all. D.R. was an LEO, gunsmith, and competitive shooter, who found he couldn't effectively employ existing shooting methods. As a result, he chose to devote his time and energy to developing a system of shooting, now known as FIST-FIRE, which addressed the many problems he felt existed with other methods. When you talk to D.R. you quickly realize it was no small feat to completely dissect and analyze almost every conceivable aspect of shooting the handgun, and then create a system of shooting that goes from the holster to firing then back again, and which can be easily learned by anyone.

However, you can't just go out and start shooting it out with folks on the street (well... at least not legally), so competition is one of the methods (square range and FoF with sim being others) by which D.R. evaluated the effectiveness of his FIST-FIRE techniques. With his new techniques, D.R. was faster and more accurate then ever before, and was able to beat top pro shooters in IDPA and man vs man speed shooting competition. For this reason I believe he and his system have received the "gamers" label, when that was not the intent of the system, just a by-product of the development.

Having done a bit of CQB myself (both real and training), I find FIST-FIRE to be completely relevant to, and quite suitable for, military operations. I'm not a law enforcement officer, so I can't credibly say LEOs should use FIST-FIRE, but I suspect that they would have good results with it.


7677 -
Please feel free to contact me at your convenience. If we can coordinate the time and place I'd be happy to do some shooting with you.


Thanks to all who've chimed in the last few days; the recent posts have clearly been much more polite and pleasant (even in disagreement) than were the posts from last year (no offense intended folks, but it was getting pretty ugly).

Regards,
Brad

[Larry Ashcraft]

I am also totally unqualified to give any opinion on the matter, but the FIST-FIRE training was recommended to me by a friend of D.R.'s.

Drew Dix

That name should mean something to someone.

[Ankeny]

I am still a skeptic. Just because young Daniel rocks on steel and is a Fist Fire proponent, that doesn't mean he shoots steel in a fashion appreciably different than guys like TGO. I would bet the farm Daniel is moving his eyes from target to target, indexing the gun, and pulling his vision back to the sights (or at least looking through them) before he breaks the shot on the long shots. I seriously doubt any of the top Fist Fire shooters are slapping steel at 30 yards with a pure target focus.

[tetleyb]

Count me in the ranks of the skeptics also. Sorry, every few years some new, great, wonderful shooting system comes out. Like some infomercial on at 3AM. It promises the world, but falls flat when truly used.

I just can't see how using your sights is such a weird, strange, idea???

[Island Beretta]

There seems to be a number of THRers trained in this technique. Whilst they seem a little tentative to divulge information about the techniques (copyright fears??), maybe they can post details of their shooting skill levels before and after Fist-fire. I am not trying to call out anyone, really, I am just trying to get an appreciation for the technique.

In fact I am going to order the book this week.

[bradvanhorn]

I seriously doubt any of the top Fist Fire shooters are slapping steel at 30 yards with a pure target focus.

I just can't see how using your sights is such a weird, strange, idea???

This is a point that is apparently being misunderstood. The use of the sights is neither prohibited nor discouraged with FIST-FIRE. FIST-FIRE is a progressive system, in which sight use is based on time & distance. At close quarters, say 10 yards or less, you can easily and effectively shoot from retention or partial extension using target focus. As time/distance increases, you will push out to full extension, and use sights as needed.

FIST-FIRE was designed with defensive use as one of the primary objectives in mind, and most defensive use takes place at close quarters. At close quarters, weapons retention is very important, as is the ability to put fast, accurate fire on target. If you push out to full extension to use your sights at close quarters, you become highly vulnerable to disarm. So, shooting from retention or partial extension (i.e. point shooting or unsighted fire) was specifically designed and incorporated into FIST-FIRE.

The thing I appreciate most with FIST-FIRE is the completely systematic approach to training, and that no detail is overlooked. Other training I've experienced and witnessed is much too vague with regard to how to do technique (1), then how to progress to technique (2), and so on. D.R. has developed a system that breaks down every technique, and then teaches the individual elements needed to execute those techniques. Perhaps it sounds overly complicated, but it's really quite simple.

In my first trip to TSA, I spent five days there, and after it was over I wrote a four page after action report for my battalion. I don't want to reproduce that document here, so I'll try to convey my first experience in this paragraph. As I mentioned in a previous post, I was looking around for a good shooting school (that I could afford), and due to circumstance found myself checking out the TSA [FIST-FIRE] website. Frankly I couldn't begin to imagine what I was going to be learning, and the pictures really didn't give me a good idea of how to do anything. But I decided to go, and I went in with an open mind and a willingness to learn, and the results shocked me. D.R. is an excellent instructor, and he described his techniques in thorough detail, and further explained why he believed his techniques were better than other techniques. D.R. then demonstrated the techniques, performed some interesting demos, then set us to work learning his system. Once we went hands on, everything felt awkward and seemed a little confusing (that's just the brain being rewired). However, once we worked through the techniques, and received some coaching, it was easy to see the value in what D.R. was teaching. By the end of the 1st day I was completely convinced FIST-FIRE was for me.

If you are happy with what you've got, well then no worries... If you're looking to try something new, then give FIST-FIRE a try. I honestly doubt you'd be dissappointed in the results.

Regards,
Brad

[bradvanhorn]

Island Beretta -
I'm not sure how many here at THR have gone through FIST-FIRE training. I have obviously, as I believe has Bob Hundley and one or two others who've posted in this thread.

I understand your question about revealing the specifics of the different techniques. In my opinion, the answer is twofold:

1) This is D.R.s material, and we respect his ownership of that material. "Intellectual property" I believe this could be called. D.R. wrote his book to promote his shooting system, and this contributes to how he makes his living. Therefore, he is not willing to simply publish his information on the net for free, and likewise we will not either.

2) It is far easier to demonstrate and discuss the techniques than it is to try to describe them. The internet makes it far too easy to misunderstand or misinterpret what is to be done. I bought D.R.s book after the first day of training, and I found the book made good sense in that regard. I think the book does a fine job of explaining the system, but I also think it is far more beneficial to have someone who can instruct/coach you to ensure you are getting everything right.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Brad

[brownie0486]

"FIST-FIRE is a progressive system, in which sight use is based on time & distance"

I don't see that as any different in theory than many other systems which have been developed throughout the decades, how would it be deemed "progressive" when other systems have been in place due to addressing the sights use based on time and distance?

"So, shooting from retention or partial extension (i.e. point shooting or unsighted fire) was specifically designed and incorporated into FIST-FIRE."

I didn't see any of this related on the website though I could have missed it. If it was specifically designed that way, it should at least be mentioned IMO.

The CAR system recently in the forefront in some circles also thoroughly addresses the retention shooting positions and works quite well, especially from seated in a car.

Not that what DR developed won't work, I just do not see anything "new" to learn from the system he has "developed". Body indexing, no sights in close were taught to WW2 combat vets by several well known men of that era 70 years ago.

It appears [ and I'll reserve final comment until I actually see the sysytem ] that DR has put a new twist on the training in an old subject already covered in several different venues covering "altering" something that already existed long ago.

"Other training I've experienced and witnessed is much too vague with regard to how to do technique"

If I have to remember to turn the wrist, cock the head just so, keep my feet a certain way, don'tbend the wrist/bend the wrists, arms at a certain distance to the body based on distance and time allowed, all to neutralize a threat under stress, it would seem [ again without the benefit of seeing it performed to know for sure ] that it is not something you will naturally do under duress.

Any system that conflicts with ones natural reactions to threats will take more effort to master, take more time to ingrain muscle memory, etc which in the end may not work as well as tested systems that rely on ones natural abilities and not some technique that needs a lot of trigger time to ingrain the muscles with the memory necesary to perform this under stress.

Just opinions based on past training and trigger time. I wish him luck with marketing the new system.

Robin Brown

[bradvanhorn]

brownie0486 -

I think I used "progressive" differently than you read it. I meant progressing from one position to another (from unsighted to sighted if you will), as opposed to being progressive in relation to other shooting systems (although that could probably be proven true if I had sufficient command of written English).

I don't think the website emphasizes the retention thing. The book and the training definitely emphasize retention shooting, and shooting from the guard is the first position taught.

I just do not see anything "new" to learn from the system...
From the concept perspective, no there is nothing really new or earth-shattering. As I posted earlier, there are many techniques which are similar to those in FIST-FIRE, but once again I point out that similar is still different. In my opinion D.R. took good concepts, improved them, then developed a complete package of techniques which take advantage of those concepts. As I mentioned before, if you've got a system you're happy with, then stick with it.

Any system that conflicts with ones natural reactions to threats...
Absolutely not the case at all; quite the opposite in fact. This is why I continue to say it is very helpful to see a FIST-FIRE demonstration to understand. Not that people aren't capable of understanding it in written form (there is a book after all), but it's simply easier to explain and demonstrate.



o.k., I've beat the FIST-FIRE drum more than enough. I hope you all enjoyed the show.

Anyone who wants to know more can feel free to PM me and I'll get back to you. I'm outta here...

Regards,
Brad

[brownie0486]

bradvanhorn:

Don't get me wrong, I always seem to find something within a new area I may use once physically shown.

Like the CAR demo and practice we had a month ago, I would not utilize it exclusively but from in a vehicle, absolutely valid and effective over others I have seen in that regard, but not something valid enough for me to use all the time.

I know how you feel about beating the drum on something, I'm known to do that too long myself here and other forums when I am convinced something works and is valid to others.

Stay sharp

Robin Brown

[7677]

brad,
I have trained with Brownie and I consider him a friend. I can attest that he is asking these question because like myself he is curious about fist-fire. He is not asking these questions to put the system down. Read the following link it might explain some things.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=265032

[Navy joe]

Well, I shoot with Daniel, Bob, Brad et. al at Norfolk county. I am entirely self taught while recently picking up tips from top USPSA shooters and using some training material like the BE website and Matt's videos.

I find myself shooting with a similar style to the point of being asked if I trained with D.R. Well, not yet. My upper body index is very similar to what I saw when I looked at the Fist-Fire book and it's grip and stance. I find the idea of progression and use of the sights where time permits way very similar to BE's "see what you need to see" I don't look at my sights too much until 15 yards on paper.

The shooters that D.R. trains are surely competent and I've seen improvement in a few lower classed shooters that have gone through. Having Daniel as a reference is a best case scenario. What D.R. taught him was certainly spot on, but I feel that he got to him before bad habits and lack of focus set in to show him what is possible. With almost any competent top level instructor I think Daniel would be waxing us. He is a fine young gentleman and an amazing talent. I do the same things and usually shoot the same plan as Daniel, I just do it 25-30% slower. :banghead: I think you will be seeing more of him in all competitive venues very soon.

When I get schedule white space and black in the balance sheet I will go out to D.R.s place. I expect I'll learn a lot. Like every other instruction I'll take it home and decide what works for me. That's the key, self analysis, don't expect any instructor to hand you the meaning of life on a silver plate.

[bradvanhorn]

7677 -
No worries mate... I hope I've been of some assistance in explaining things. If not, well... I gave it a shot ;).

Navy Joe -
I haven't made it down to NCRR in a while, and I missed the Blackwater match last weekend as well (if they even had it - hurricane probably tore 'em up a bit). Hopefully I'll get down to NCRR for the next one, since that'll probably be my last opportunity to shoot there before I PCS to Lejuene.

Regards,
Brad

[Navy joe]

Brad, Since returning from the Florida Open in Feb. I have shot maybe 3 IDPA matches and one USPSA match, the military thinks its schedule takes priority:uhoh: Blackwater did cancel out. There are some excellent clubs down Lejeune way for both sports.

[KMKeller]

I, as a novice shooter, (except for PPC where I have some skill) offer the following;

1. DR - provide me with a course at your expense (I am a skinflint and a miser). I'll bring my own ammo and gear.

2. I will begin practicing the IDPA Classifier and will record all of my scores.

3. I will shoot the IDPA classifier immediately before the course, 5 times and record the scores, this can be done at DRs place with witnesses if need be. And for the record, I have never shot IDPA matches or the IDPA classifier before now. Fed168 can vouch for me. Been wanting to, haven't got around to it.

4. After DRs course, I will reshoot the IDPA Classifier, 5 times and record the scores for comparison.

I am clay. Mold me.

Whaddaya think fellas?

And for the record, I'm a 40 year old ex jock with crap for knees and a bum left shoulder. I've never taken a single shooting course other than that required for my CHP and what Fed168 has taught me.

And yes, I'm an opportunist looking for a free course... so sue me! :neener:

:D

[KMKeller]

Hmmmm... No takers. How did I know that was going to happen?

[Correia]

That sure was mighty nice of you to offer though. :p

[KMKeller]

You know me Larry, always putting others before myself.:neener:

[KMKeller]

Actually though, I did get a response. DR emailed me and thought that since you folks didn't believe the testimonials on his website, that you wouldn't believe me either. Darn your hides, your scepticism robbed me of a course freebie. I expect every skeptic here to pony up a buck fifty each to compensate me for my loss...

WELL? :scrutiny:

Reckon it's time for me to get Brian Enos' book and take a trip to Moyock...

[Island Beretta]

km, the BE book is good to go!!

[Grump]

KMKeller, I'm all in favor of your semi-scientific sample of one test!!!

Okay, if DR won't do it for free, let's take up a collection and see if DR will do it for half-price, for the sake of acknowledging the value of his time. I'm in for $1.50, and will send it in once enough pledges are up and DR agrees to it and y'all have a scheduled training date.

Yes, sacrifices must be made in the name of science. You're a brave man, KMKeller! Hope the training does not metthhh yooouuuu up.;) To show your commitment, start your practice with witnesses soon.

To add a bit of science, we need another volunteer to do the same thing, average of 5, then go through sumbuddy else's "competing" front-sight-based training. We'll see who improves the most. THEN to really muddy the waters, we take both subjects and put them through the OTHER training and see whether both improve, both get worse, one better/one worse, and most importantly, how much difference (if any). Anyone who refuses to allow their student to be tested thusly might not be a charlatan, but suspicion really arises!:evil: :evil:

[Grump]

How well does FistFire work when you cannot visually index at all on your pistol? Think you're totally in the dark, target is discernable and identifiable but you cannot see your slide at all unless out front obscuring your view of the target. You're too close for that to be wise.

How well does FistFire work when you can visually index on your pistol only from the very pephery of your vision? Same conditions as the prior question.

In either situation, can FistFire get you reliable head shots under those same conditions? At what distances? What time/distance combinations demand use of visual index of the whole gun for head shots, and what combos require use of sights?

[KMKeller]

Grump, you've brought a smile to my face. Well folks, there's a buck fifty down and... um..... a bunch more to go! C'mon folks, uncle Kirky needs some schoolin'! I mean, I'm looking forward to providing the greater THR community with some empirical data from which to form a more educated opinion.

:D

[Ankeny]

Index doesn't rely on vision. Vision is used to confirm the index, not the other way around.

[Ankeny]

Ooops, double tap.

[okjoe]

Howard Benz, who I understand - WAS - DR's web designer/monitor, provides an excellent description of the FistFire system in his posting:
http://cwd.net/TSA-Range-Report.htm

Of significance is the following: "Once the pistol is securely in the Guard Position, both thumbs are pointed towards the target with the weak hand thumb rolled over causing the wrist to “lock�..."

I also believe that if and when both thumbs are pointed at a target, alla the weak hand thumb rolled over causing the wrist to "lock" and the barrel and the thumbs are also in alignment, and the body has been and is indexed to the target for each shot, the target will be in the line of fire.

Howard says that the shooting progression is:... from "the “Guard� position where the gun is held in at retention; Next, you learn to point shoot from partial extension for mid range, close quarter shooting using a “Reverse Weaver� stance; and lastly you learn how to surgically shoot at full extension for longer shots in a “Reverse Chapman� type...."

I accept that but have reservations about the ability of the average home defender to assume those positions in the high stress conditions of an in home real life and death situation.

Howard also says that "Another thing that Middlebrooks does that is totally opposite of the traditional method is to teach ‘point shooting’ first and ‘aimed fire’ second._

I am in full agreement with that, as AIMED Point Shooting or P&S can be used sucessfully by most anyone who knows only basic safe gun handling, and with little or no training.

P&S, which I advocate, allows one to aim fast, automatically, instinctively, and accurately for each and every shot at in home self defense distances, and regardless of body index/position, and most shooting conditions/environments.

Just grab gun - point finger - pull trigger.

P&S coupled with a "wrist lock" grip, provides for excellent weapon retention and forward strikes and elbow smashes left or right.

And the sights still can be used, if they can be used.

Info on P&S is at www.pointshooting.com if you are interested.

I have been banned from sites for advocating it, so don't expect a hash or rehash of it here.

Mention of P&S now and then and here and there, will have to do.

[Jayman]

Whew, talking about coming in on this one late...

I ordered the Fist-Fire book, and read it. I got some good stuff from it, and while I don't know if I'm going to be using 100% Fist Fire technique for everything, I was sold enough on grips and stances to begin to incorporate them into my training.

I'm no brilliant uber tactical shooter. I'm no master class IDPA shooter. (SS at last check, and not even a front runner there.) I can make bullets go where I want them to go, just not as fast as the other people you see mentioned here.

I've seen Daniel Horner smoke opponents in several matches. I too believe that no matter what shooting style, he'd be a front runner. He has talent.

Bottom line, you guys need to chill. Rather than attack an instructor, see if he has something of use to you. If so, learn it/take it. If not, move on. I don't agree with everything any single instructor says. Be it Farnam, Enos, Burkett, etc. but I sure as heck learned a lot from their writings. (I haven't had the pleasure of actually working with any of those guys in person.) I have trained with Awerbuck and Pat Goodale, and learned TONS from them. I've also picked the brains of some of the top ranked IDPA shooters in the nation. When I've disagreed with them, I've done so RESPECTFULLY.

[FIREARMZ]

I do have a dog in this hunt, as some of you say you don't. First let me say that I have trained with a few of the people posting here and Ihave lurked around in the hides reading post.

My dog is the the dog that is hunting for more techniques, more styles and skill to win.

I have been looking at taking a FF Class and have been looking at D.R.'s writtings and in his forum (by the way I like the no bull s*(%^ ways).

I have trained with Gomez and SouthNarc on three different occasions, I have not trained with D.R. but will because I have an open mind and have sparked an intrest.

I have only had one experience with anyone that has taken a class from D.R. and I met them in a SWAT Class and from the performance the team did not impress me with their handgun skills. This is by no means a slam on anyone, the operator could have beenone of the guys not practising his skills and just went to class, who knows? Just as I cannot duplicate the exact system SouthNarc and Gomez teach (sorry Gomez I was asleep at times LMAO).

I will be contacting D.R. soon and taking a class.

One thing I can say is I have all but dismissed the old school of a 1911 45 ACP and Weaver or your a whimp mentality.

I say if you haven't taken the mans class give him a freaking break! Go try the class and the system and give it an honest effort then make an evaluation based upon fact and not forum comments.

I can honestly say I have never taken a bad class, I have either found something new useful, or decided what not to be doing.

Looking forward to training with D.R. and his staff and will see Gomez this September.

Stay safe!

[Jeff22]

I bought the "Fist Fire" book when it first came out. (I try to buy every relevant book when it first somes out)

One of the reasons that D.R. Middlebrooks developed a new technique is because he had developed joint and ligament damage from doing so much shooting in his younger days. He mentions this someplace in the book. He was hoping to modify his technique in such a way to permit him to continue shooting comfortably, and that's how the whole thing started.

So, does the "Fist Fire" method have broad applicablity or is it just an interesting variation in response to a particular set of physical performance limitations? I suppose time will tell.

(for what it's worth, my personal preference is a Chapman modified Weaver Stance . . . )

[Island Beretta]

if u have developed joint and ligament problem from shooting it simply means your technique and form is wrong... it can't be from 2 much shooting...from what I have seen of FF shooters it requires a very hard grip and joint locks..surely something you would want to stay away from to protect joint and ligaments.

all the best and enjoy Independence Day!!

[skidmark]

Wow! I'm wondering if it's safe to step into the tail end of this tempest with the little bit I can offer.

I took D.R. Middlebrook's training because it was a) local, and b) not expensive. I tried to read his book before going to the class, but could not grasp the concept of his grip/stance so gave up until I showed up. I've got a bad back, bad knees, a bum heart, no wind, no stamina, and find it difficult to stand up straight for 30 continuous minutes. I can't hold my arm out straight (empty handed) for 2 minutes without serious shoulder & back pain. (Don't ask me to hold even a J-frame out there that long.) If I can see the front sight I can't see the target, & vice-versa.

I'm essentially uncompetent. I've got a nice indoor range that lets me draw from both open carry & concealment, and does not care how quickly or slowly I use up the magazine/cylinder. With practice (read: lots of repetition) I can now repeatedly blow out the 10-ring at known distances out to 15 yards. At 25 yards I can keep my shots within the 7-ring, but cannot call them except to say it is or is not within the 7-ring.

I'm not sure that two days of training in Fist Fire is the only thing responsible for my "increased prowess", but I know that before I got the training I was a whole lot worse of a shooter, and that D.R. taught me how to work around or with my limitations so that I could move & shoot (OK, not fast, but still better than standing still) so that rounds stayed on target.

Because I have not attended any other school I have no idea if the techniques and methods they teach would or would not have done as much, or more, for me. One day when the $$ and time coincide I'll try to get to someone else's classroom too.

Until then all I can say is that Fist Fire seems to have worked for me. I shoot better now than I did before the training. I shoot more often now, and the techniques I learned seem to me to make that possible. Or maybe its just that I enjoy shooting more now that I am hitting the target more often, and with better "skill".

If it worked for me, it was good. My boat floats better because of Fist Fire. YMMV. As for D.R.'s ego, I saw him make headshots, from draws while moving, at somewhere between 40 & 50 yards. Personally, I thought he proved the point (no pun intended) that his technique works for him and could work for me.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Walt Rauch]

"As for D.R.'s ego, I saw him make headshots, from draws while moving, at somewhere between 40 & 50 yards. Personally, I thought he proved the point (no pun intended) that his technique works for him and could work for me."


I'll pay money to see this!! He does this on demand?

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

50-yard heads shots? While moving? Wow! :eek: I’d like to see that myself! :D
I’ve gotten a few 50 yard head shots, mind you. But I assure you I was aiming for COM when it happened…:o

Talk is cheap. Only performance counts. This is what my me and my Fist-Fire Instructors have won thus far:

1st Place: 1998 Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion

1st Place: 1998 Virginia State IDPA – - ESP State Champion

1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA -- ESP State Champion

1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA - Ladies State Champion

1st Place: 1998 North Carolina IDPA -- ESP State Champion

1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA - ESP Champion

1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA Ladies Champion

1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - ESP Champion

1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - Ladies Champion

1st Place: 1999 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion

1st Place: 1999 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP Champion

1st Place: 2000 Eastern Regional IDPA - CDP Champion

1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - CDP Champion

1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion

1st Place: 2000 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion

1st Place: 2000 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - ESP Champion

1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - Ladies Champion

1st Place: 2000 Tennessee State IDPA - ESP Champion

1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion

1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion

1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion

1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Ladies Stock Gun World Champion

1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion

1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - ESP Champion

1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion

1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - SSP Champion

1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA - SSP Champion

1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA Ladies Champion

1st Place: 2002 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion

1st Place: 2002 Commonwealth Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion

1st Place: 2002 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion

1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion

1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun World Champion

1st Place: 2002 All Navy Match – All Navy National Champion

1st Place: 2002 Florida State IDPA - ESP State Champion

1st Place: 2002 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2002 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2002 Mississippi State IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2003 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2003 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2003 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion

1st Place: 2003 Alabama IDPA - ESP State Champion

1st Place: 2003 Kentucky-Tennessee IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2003 Commonwealth Cups IDPA - SSP Champion

1st Place: 2003 Winchester Challenge – IDPA World Champion

1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion

1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion

1st Place: 2003 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion

1st Place: 2004 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2004 Indiana State IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2004 Southern Regional IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2004 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2004 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion

1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion

1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Shoot Off Champion

1st Place: 2004 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion

1st Place: 2004 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion

1st Place: 2004 N.C. Tactical Invitational 3-Gun Championship - Match Champion

1st Place: 2004 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

1st Place: 2005 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion

1st Place: 2005 Arkansas State IDPA - SSP State Champion

1st Place: 2005 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion

1st Place: 2005 Maryland State IDPA - ESP State Champion

1st Place: 2005 USPSA Area 6 Championships - Limited-10 Champion

1st Place: 2005 MGM IRONMAN 3-Gun Championships - Tactical Champion

1st Place: 2005 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion

1st Place: 2005 Carolina Tactical Invitational 3-Gun - Match Champion

1st Place: 2005 Steel Challenge - IDPA ESP World Speed Shooting Champion

1st Place: 2005 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

And what have you guys done, I mean, besides talk a lot of trash?:rolleyes:

We frequent a few matches, and hold classes all the time. I invite any of you to come by and prove us wrong.

Bottom Line: Load up or shut up! :cool:

www.TacticalShooting.com

[Jayman]

50-yard heads shots? While moving? Wow! :eek: I’d like to see that myself! :D
I’ve gotten a few 50 yard head shots, mind you. But I assure you I was aiming for COM when it happened…:o

Talk is cheap. Only performance counts. This is what my me and my Fist-Fire Instructors have won thus far:

1st Place: 1998 Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion

<<<<snip>>>>

1st Place: 2005 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion

And what have you guys done, I mean, besides talk a lot of trash?:rolleyes:

We frequent a few matches, and hold classes all the time. I invite any of you to come by and prove us wrong.

Bottom Line: Load up or shut up! :cool:

www.TacticalShooting.com
Respectfully, if we cull Mr. Horner from this list, how many are left?

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

45-50...

Mr. Horner is my 18 year old protégé. He still wears the Tactical Shooting Academy colors. He's still one of my Fist-Fire Instructors. He still uses the FIST-FIRE method of shooting...

As matter of fact, he beat Doug Koenig by over 16 seconds at the PSA Shootout using our "Reverse Chapman" surgical shooting method...

Oh, yeah, he also beat Rob Leatham (TGO) at the IDPA Nat's a few weeks ago...

In his own words:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/testimonials.html

[Jayman]

45 to 50...

Mr. Horner is my 18 year old protégé. He still wears the Tactical Shooting Academy colors. He's still one of my Fist-Fire Instructors. He still uses the FIST-FIRE method of shooting...

As matter of fact, he beat Doug Koenig by over 16 seconds at the PSA Shootout using our "Reverse Chapman" surgical shooting method...

Oh, yeah, he also beat Rob Leatham (TGO) at the IDPA Nat's a few weeks ago...

In his own words:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/testimonials.html
Oh, I know all about Danny, I was there and saw his work. I've seen him shoot before. Leatham wasn't the only person he beat at the IDPA Nats... :-P

[Albert Shear]

in this life is protecting myself and my family. At my age with Rh.Artritis and Degenertive Spinal Disease most combat shooting skills have left me years ago. Not so with FistFire. After unlearning 35 years of other ways D.R. has shown me how easy a complete combat/self defense shooting system can be.
It has taken him years/decades of watching and learning of what works and what does not and then incorporating his ideas into a simple, effective and easy to learn system.
Why does D.R. have an ego? Don't all top professionalls in their fields have one? My opinion is that he is so tired of being lambasted on the forums from non-competitors and those who have not taken the course that he just gets frustratd and lashes out. I am a continuing student and will tell you that you can not tell anything but the basics from the book. You need the actual course.
I am lucky enough that I can call D.R. a friend. I watch him take one his EAA's with no sights and make head shots at 48ft(we measured it) every time. Same gun, hit 12" steel plates out to 150ft. Watch him and Barb run 6" plate racks with it. Its a demonstration to show that your not sight dependent. But I digress.
Laugh, call him names, dismiss him, whatever you want but if you're an open minded adult and can get passed the rhetoric give FistFire a chance. You just might be surprised.

[speedbag]

can someone please explain the ranking or sheild sytem?

i found it on the forum there but you have to pay to post. it seems like the whole ranking system is based on square range competition shooting.

[Albert Shear]

can someone please explain the ranking or sheild sytem?

i found it on the forum there but you have to pay to post. it seems like the whole ranking system is based on square range competition shooting.

No sir, its based on your individual level of knowledge and ability to demonstrate and use the FistFire system. Most of the begining levels as is with all training tacs is on a range. However, higher levels are not "square competition shooting".

One thing I think we all get fixated upon is that D.R. just used the competition venue to hone and show what FistFire can accomplish. While it can be used for competition and works beautifully for it, FistFire is a "complete" combat/self defense system.

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Al is absolutely correct, I used World Class competition simply to test the shooting aspects of the system. But that’s only half of the equation...

I also used NHB fighters to test weapons retention and point shooting in extreme CQB. My goal was to develop a shooting system that blended with MMA fighting techniques. My guys have literally fired “tens of thousands” of rounds of Simunitions using resisting opponents in Force on Force testing.

Yes, we train on square ranges, square buildings, square rooms, square street corners and square parking lots, too. Some of my Fist-Fire students even train on square mats, square rings and even octagons (like the UFC). They also use speed bags, heavy bags and as well as real people for sparring…;)

This link should help explain the F-F Shield Ranking system:

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42

www.TacticalShooting.com

[TxD11]

D.R.
Do you make the Pro sight for the Witness Stock?
Horizontal dove tail F/S with fiber optic.
It looks like one on your web site but I dont see it listed.
Thanks. Dave.