Carry gun problem


PDA






CAS700850
September 22, 2005, 09:18 AM
Okay, for those of you who have seen my posts, you know I'm a prosecuting attorney, and am authorized (but not required) to carry concealed on my badge. Up until this last week, I have happily carried a Glock 19, a Sig 239, or a Smith 649. Rules were that the carry weapons (1) had to be .38/9mm/.40/.45 caliber; (2) double action (Glock considered DA); (3) concealed in an appropriate holster unless circumstances dictated otherwise (open carry for raids).

Due to an incident I cannot discuss because of possible pending legal action, the rules are changing. NOw, all carry weapons must be either a revolver or a DA auto with a manual safety, carried with the safety engaged. I have a Beretta 92 that I'm wearing as I type this, but it is just too big for daily concealed carry.

I know Smith traditional autos have a manual safety. What other DA autos offer a manual safety on a pistol that is concealed carry size in 9mm/.40/.45 calibers?

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jacobtowne
September 22, 2005, 09:25 AM
"DA auto with a manual safety, carried with the safety engaged"

If I had to live by that regulation, I'd carry a revolver.
JT

Henry Bowman
September 22, 2005, 09:26 AM
Bummer. (Many of us wish we had such a problem.)

I'm a 1911 man myself and believe that SA is not any more inherently dangerous than a DA. But I'd probably cary a revo until I could take the time to try and selct the most appropriate semi-auto that fit the requirements.

dk-corriveau
September 22, 2005, 09:34 AM
How about a Commander sized Para with the LDA trigger. I felt one for the first time last week and man is that a nice trigger.

JamisJockey
September 22, 2005, 09:50 AM
Taurus Millenium series. Available in 9, 40, or .45. Slide saftey, DAO.

GI Jane
September 22, 2005, 09:52 AM
how about a beretta 9000s. They are compact,easy to conceal. Come in 9mm or .40.
was looking at them myself, but for me it's a bit small but for what you are looking for I belive it would be perfect.

Shipwreck
September 22, 2005, 09:59 AM
While a bit tough to get, there are some people with the smaller Berettas for sale. You can still find some new online. I think they are type "M" but I can't remember for sure.

The Para Ordinance that someone else mentioned seems to be a good idea.

Frandy
September 22, 2005, 10:01 AM
HK USP Compact. Mine is variant 1, so you can lock and cock, or decock with safety off, or decock with safety on. Your choice of calibre:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27923

Werewolf
September 22, 2005, 10:06 AM
CZ-PO1 fits the bill I believe... DA first pull, single after that.

CZ-PO1 (http://www.cz-usa.com/01.detail.php?id=28)

TarpleyG
September 22, 2005, 10:09 AM
I'm with Frandy--H&K.

Or....have you looked at CZ?

RAMI - great little gun and easily concealable
http://czusa.com/01.detail.php?id=48

P01 - Not sure if the safety can be engaged when in DA mode though...
http://czusa.com/01.detail.php?id=28

Greg

Mulliga
September 22, 2005, 10:12 AM
CZ-PO1 fits the bill I believe... DA first pull, single after that.

No manual safety. And the RAMI safety can't be engaged in DA.

DA semi with the safety on? I'd go with a revolver, too. Perhaps a 3" barreled S&W Model 60? Or a Ruger 3" barreled SP101?

Old Fuff
September 22, 2005, 10:13 AM
If you still want to carry a S&W J-frame/inclosed hammer/.38 Special pocket revolver, shop around until you find an original S&W model 40 (all-steel) or 42 (airwight) that had a grip safety. It is indeed a "manual safety," and should meet the rule's requirements.

Both S&W and Ruger made some K-frame sized revolvers with a manual safety, for the French. They are sometimes found, but usually very expensive.

Somebody needs to explain to the rulemaker that modern revolvers have "mechanical" safeties (sometimes more then one) that prevent any possibility of an accidental/unintentional discharge unless the trigger is fully pulled and held back while the hammer falls. If the trigger is not held, it will follow the hammer down, and the hammer will be blocked. This is the reason that revolvers don't normally have manual safeties.

armoredman
September 22, 2005, 10:14 AM
EAA Witness. Safety can be engaged DA or SA. I carried one for 13+ years, and had no problems.

TIMC
September 22, 2005, 10:32 AM
I give a second on the Para Ordnance LDA guns. Great trigger, slim 1911 style frame and safety also very easy to conceal. I carry the C645.

kimbernut
September 22, 2005, 10:39 AM
I've yet to fire one but like dk above I would have to give the Para LDAs a shot at filling that bill. The LDA feels mighty sweet in dry fire testing.

Working Man
September 22, 2005, 10:43 AM
+1 for the HK. That's my CCW.

alpineman
September 22, 2005, 10:49 AM
Doesn't somebody make an after-market thumb-safety for Glock? Would that work for your new requirements?

armoredman
September 22, 2005, 11:19 AM
Yes, there is an aftermarket safety for da Grock - seen it advertised. Will they accept a "modified" firearm?

Waitone
September 22, 2005, 11:30 AM
My baby daughter packs a Taurus PT-145

Second vote for a ParaO LDA in the size of your preference.

.38spl is an option. I use a Taurus snubbie with a Barami Hip Grip.

Let us know what you pick.

Bobo
September 22, 2005, 11:41 AM
Some possibilities with links:

Bersa Thunder (http://www.bersa-llama.com/cat_thunder380.html)
Beretta 9000 (http://www.berettausa.com/product/product_pistols_main.htm)
Para LDA (http://www.paraord.com/product/category.html?cat=13)
Springfield XD (http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-xdpstl-sub-compact.shtml)
Taurus Millennium Pro (the photos on web site are old -- they now have accessory rails). (http://www.taurususa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=MP1)
Steyr (http://www.steyr-aug.com/m_series_pistols.htm)
H&K (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=704531)

T-Bird
September 22, 2005, 02:26 PM
Walther PP or PPK/S

TheEgg
September 22, 2005, 03:01 PM
Since you like the 239, look at the S&W 3913. Close in size/concept and has the TDA with Safety & Decocker lever.

kirkcdl
September 22, 2005, 07:33 PM
I have quite a few pistols I carry concealed all the time.Para Carry 45,Taurus PT745(single stack),Kahr K40(gonna have a P45 soon,I got to fondle one last Saturday),Taurus 24/7-45,Glock 36.To meet your criteria the Glock and the Kahr are out.The 24/7 is my"I can carry a slightly larger gun"gun,I can't figure out how they fit 12rds of 45 in a grip that slim,but it is concealable,perhaps my winter carry fulltime.I got the PT745 because the PT145 I had felt too thick for me.The PT745 is much slimmer and easier to carry all day IWB.The Para is my absolute favorite 45 because,although it is a lot heavier than the PT745,the LDA trigger is the best of anything I've fired.Try to test as many as you can that fit your requirements,good luck...

Zundfolge
September 22, 2005, 07:53 PM
I thought the SIG P239 had a manual safety? Wouldn't it work?

Ken Rainey
September 22, 2005, 08:23 PM
What about using a Saf T Blok with your Glock?? That should satisfy their manual "safety" requirement.

If not, Cominolli makes a frame mounted safety for Glocks but you have to cut the frame to install it - I've handled a Glock with one and it worked well.

Other than those, I'd carry the revolver you already have if you're comfortable with it or maybe buy a used (I like the older ones) K-frame 38/.357 such as a Model 10,13,15, 65 or 66.

If you wanted a semi and they wouldn't go for the Saf T Blok and you didn't want to modify your Glock, then you might try to find a HK in 9mm - it has a frame mounted safety that works in DA or SA mode.

Slide mounted safeties are just not the thing to have to try to manipulate in a SHTF situation.

Sorry to hear that these restrictions are being imposed on you.

MDG1976
September 22, 2005, 08:41 PM
Beretta PX4 (http://www.px4storm.com/)

Trebor
September 22, 2005, 09:53 PM
With those restrictions, I'd go with a Smith K frame revolver with a 2.5" or 3" barrel. For an auto, I'd use a Smith 3913.

Black Majik
September 23, 2005, 12:12 AM
Agreed with Frandy!

HK USP decocked and safetied. Definitely lot lighter than that Beretta! I love the USP because it offers so many options of carry. C1, DA/SA, DA/safetied, etc...

TheEgg
September 23, 2005, 09:59 AM
I thought the SIG P239 had a manual safety? Wouldn't it work?

Nope the P239 has a decocker only -- no manual safety. Or, the DAK model, no decocker, no manual safety, just the DAK action -- a type of DAO.

Mikel
September 24, 2005, 05:35 PM
Another USP Compact carrier here, I highly recommend it.

Rockstar
September 24, 2005, 05:45 PM
Maybe this is Gawd's way of telling you to get out now and use your legal education and experience to make some real money. :evil:

cxm
September 24, 2005, 07:38 PM
Well, the S&W 669, 6904/6 etc. are excellent choices if you want to carry 9mm... very hard to beat.

CZ makes some compact guns that also are DA with thumb safeties (i.e. cocked and locked :D) as well as decocker models.

SIGs are DA, and have a safety in the form of a de-cocker though it is on the frame vis a vis the slide as on S&W and Beretta.

I don't know of any auto that allows the safety to be engaged if it is not cocked.

I consider Glock to be an accident looking for a place to happen... so would avoid those entirely.

FWIW

Chuck

justice4all
September 24, 2005, 11:32 PM
I'm also a prosecutor, but our boss lets us carry whatever we want. I generally carry a S&W 642, either in a pocket or in a paddle. I've never been comfortable with the idea of using a safety on a self-defense handgun.

VG
September 25, 2005, 08:11 AM
The Smith & Wesson 3913 is a great all-around pistol and convenient for carry.

I have a Chief's Special 9 (more compact but heavier than the Scandium revolvers) but now use the 3913 almost exclusively as it's not much bigger or heavier.

Many choices, new and used, and many excellent holsters available, which can be a problem with some capable but less popular firearms. I purchased a High Noon Down Under with clip (http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Product_Line/_Down_Under_w_clip/_down_under_w_clip.html). High Noon has fast delivery;a 100% return policy; and excellent fit in a wide range of products.

Zach S
September 25, 2005, 09:48 AM
I'd probably go with a Para LDA.

casual
September 25, 2005, 01:52 PM
given your restrictions, i would opt for a solid .38 revolver

why no .357?


casual

shield20
September 25, 2005, 02:41 PM
Beretta Cougar - still see them new (Ganders had a 8045), or try to find a nice used one.

Ala Dan
September 25, 2005, 03:06 PM
Another vote for the H&K Compact ~ :D

bigmike45
September 25, 2005, 09:00 PM
If you are happy with your Glock and it meets the "manual safety" requirements why not stay with that gun. If not, I add another + for the Para Ordnance LDA guns . I carried a Carry 12 for over a year and it was my best carry weapon. The double action only trigger will spoil you and accuracy was almost target grade. It has the standard thumb safety found on all 1911 style guns as well as a grip safety.....yes 2 "manual safeties" and the gun will not fire without both being disengaged.

I also have to add another + for the Taurus PT-145 listed earlier. I bought mine about a year ago and it is my constant companion as well as a back up gun to all my 1911's. Double action only with a sweeeeet trigger and a slide mounted manual safety. There was some bad press about frame cracking problems with the earlier models. I have the 3rd generation Millennium Pro, with the small light rail, and after 2000+ rounds of flawless feeding and function, none of the previous problems have come about. With the polymer frame, it is by far, the lightest .45acp gun I have ever carried, even loaded with 10 in the mag and one in the tube. The price I paid for mine new was $250.00.........not too shabby for such a nice gun.

Either gun will suit your needs if the Glock is not allowed. Good Luck on your choice.

3rdpig
September 25, 2005, 10:50 PM
First I'd see if a Saf-T-Block for the Glock will satisfy their requirements. I doubt if I'd modify the frame of my Glock for an aftermarket safety. If the Saf-T-Block doesn't fly I'd probably go with a S&W auto. I carried a 3913 for several years before I switched to a Glock 26 and was highly impressed with the reliability and accuracy of the Smith. As much as I like revolvers, I'd resist a great deal switching back to one for a couple of reasons. First all my training in the last 20 years has been with autos. Second while 6 shots may be enough for a single assailant, today's shootouts often involve more than one assailant and can take minutes to resolve where shootouts used to take seconds. Speedloaders help, but unless you're highly trained revolvers are horribly slow to reload. I've never shot the Springer XD but have heard good things about them, same goes for the HK's.

CAS700850
September 26, 2005, 09:13 AM
Situation update:

The Boss is sticking with the rule, at least for now. In generic terms (due to the pending case), there was an AD at the local Sheriff's Department involving a Glock. The matter came to our office for review (standard procedure), which led to the boss saying it was dumb to carry a gun with no safety, and hence the rule change.

This may be a temporary thing, so I'm going to hold off on making any quick change in equipment. So, for now, the Beretta rides on my hip. Since the weather is changing, the Beretta's size is becomeing less of a problem, as suitcoats and heavier jackets make it easier to conceal. I'll keep you updated on the situation as it progresses.

Ken Rainey
September 26, 2005, 03:15 PM
No disrespect intended...but your "Boss" needs to learn more about how Glocks work and their designed safeties...they won't fire unless the trigger is pulled. The Accidental Discharge would be due to a weapons failure where as a Negligent Discharge would be due to an operator error....just wondering which it really was. These things always causes people in charge with limited knowledge of weapons to have a knee jerk reaction....and whats even more sad is they blame the gun instead of the person handling it....sigh. If its the weapon that fired by itself so be it and let it be known but that is relatively rare.

I really hope that a proper investigation into the event reveals the truth and avoids needless accusations and "policies" that will affect everyone for one person's (possible) mistake.

Again, sorry for your situation.

MachIVshooter
September 27, 2005, 11:24 PM
EAA Witness. Safety can be engaged DA or SA. I carried one for 13+ years, and had no problems.

+1

My CCW is a Witness Compact 10mm (http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-steel-Compact-EI.html). They are available in steel or polymer, and one of the newer renderings is the P-carry (http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-polymer-Carry-EI.html) model. It is a poly-frame with full grip and short barrel (3.7", I think). 10 rounds of .45 or 15 rounds of 10mm. The standard compact is 10 rounds 10mm/.40 or 8 rounds .45. The steel models are a touch heavy, but still smaller dimensionally than your 92FS. Grip size of the 10mm/.45 is similar to the 92. Safety is 1911 pattern and can be engaged either hammer down or C&L. I carry mine hammer down, safety off (no real chance of AD with an 11# DA trigger). They're boringly reliable, deadly accurate and affordable to boot. I paid $299 for mine. Only issue I have is the rounded trigger gaurd, but I am taking care of that soon (gonna weld and grind 'till it looks like my 4506's gaurd).

CougarRed
September 28, 2005, 07:33 AM
"all carry weapons must be either a revolver or a DA auto with a manual safety, carried with the safety engaged. "

Does a grip safety qualify as a manual safety that is carried with the safety engaged? If so, the XD qualifies.

HKGuns
September 28, 2005, 08:12 PM
Go with the USP compact. Its one of the best for what you are looking for in a carry gun.

Wynterbourne
September 29, 2005, 02:24 AM
Magnum Research Baby Eagle (MR9900). It's a hefty, all steel piece, but VERY slim. It conceals very easily in a quality IWB holster, such as Tucker Gunleather's 'Texas Heritage'.

My new 'baby' though is my Beretta PX4-F in 9mm. It's wider than the Baby Eagle, but weighs in at only 27 ounces. I love the 17+1 capacity. I got to fire a friend's this weekend (I STILL haven't been able to get mine to the range) and it was incredibly accurate with extremely light recoil.

I watched him put a couple of hundred rounds through it, with only a cursory cleaning before firing, and it ate them all. We put 100 rounds American Eagle 124gr FMJ, 100 rounds Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ, 50 rounds CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ, and 40 rounds Federal 124gr Hydra-Shok JHP through it. There was not one hickup throughout the entire session.

Like I said, it is a bit wide for a carry pistol, but I was able to conceal it with an el-cheapo 'Uncle Mike's' holster. I was wearing dress slacks, a dress shirt, and a tie, and the spare tire around my gut normally makes concealing a difficult thing.

perception
September 29, 2005, 02:32 AM
I would have to suggest the HK USP too. You can carry it DA with or without the safety, or you could even carry cocked and locked. It meets your needs and the requirements.

popaye85
September 29, 2005, 09:02 AM
Given the same circumstances, I would opt for one of the Bersa Thunder Compact autos.

Good size, good range of calibers, Great Gun. I have a 9 Thunder and am considering getting the 40 or 45.

DA/SA with large, easy to manpulate thumb safety that works effortlessly coming out of the holster.

my $.02,

popaye

usp_fan
September 29, 2005, 01:15 PM
Another vote for the USP compact. However, can I recomend the LEM trigger upgrade. I believe you can still use this with the manual safety, and the double action pull is significantly lighter.

--usp_fan

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