1911 Extractor Change


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FullEffect1911
September 22, 2005, 11:07 AM
I'm going to be needing a new extractor for my 1911 and i was wondering a few things.

The three choices are;
Wilson combat bullet proof
Brown Hardcore
C&S

The only one that comes in stainless (as the mil spec is stainless) seems to be the wilson combat. Is there a good reason not to get a stainless extractor? Should i just stick with the carbon steel guys? Which extractor requires the least modification and material removeal? (i know tuning will be necessary but i'm trying to avoid cutting up the acutal extractor as much as possible)

Any knowledge about the matter would be greatly appreciated.

FE1911

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andrew17
September 22, 2005, 11:33 AM
The C&S comes in stainless too.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=837794

From what I've read and my little bit of experince with them, all of the above are pretty good but dont count on whatever extractor you go with just dropping in and fitting. Most of 'em need some sort of tweak as well as tension added.
Tuner has posted some great instructions on fitting an extractor but I cant seem to find em just now.

Mossyrock
September 22, 2005, 11:38 AM
Let me add two more choices to your list:

Brownells "house brand" extractor
Brownells Extractor (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=20695&title=1911+AUTO+EXTRACTOR)
Caspian.
www.caspianarms.com

Both are barstock parts. Both are available in stainless steel. Both are as good as any available and better than most. And, best of all, BOTH are less expensive than any of the ones you listed. Don't get hung up on a name brand. Odds are that Caspian is actually making at least one, if not two of the ones you listed, and they are being "rebadged" by the dealer.

FullEffect1911
September 22, 2005, 01:28 PM
Are series 80 extractors just as good as series 70 ones? I have a springer mil spec that is a series 70 but i read that you can use the 80's for 70's but not vice versa.

that felt like a heck of a jumble of words. :uhoh:

Old Fuff
September 22, 2005, 03:32 PM
The Series 70 extractor (and all those that preceeded it) was modified for the Series 80 so that the firing pin plunger (lock) would work. So yes, you can use a Series 80 extractor in any of the earlier pistols, but you cannot use a Series 70 extractor in a Series 80 gun unless you get rid of the plunger in the slide.

However the Series 80 version is slightly weaker, but this doesn't seem to cause any problems. Personally I use the correct extractor for whichever gun.

FullEffect1911
September 22, 2005, 09:08 PM
Thanks all, i'm gonna go with a carbon extractor no doubt and just leave it in the white if i don't like the looks of it. Any complaints about C&S i should know about in advance? I kinda like the idea of a actual spring steel extractor.

Old Fuff
September 22, 2005, 09:54 PM
Look up Tuner's previous threads and posts on the C&S extractor. It's a good one (maybe the best) but it's expensive, and it requires some hand fitting.

And once you start fitting it the warrantee is voided. :cuss: :banghead:

Rockstar
September 22, 2005, 10:31 PM
Just recalling from memory, but I believe the C&S is about $23. That doesn't sound really expensive to me. There's a good chance that you won't have to do any fitting, but that you will need to put a little tension on it. Even if fitting is required, it'd be some really simple fitting.

Get the extractor and post a "help me tuner" thread if you get into trouble. :D

mattjoe
September 22, 2005, 11:30 PM
if you've got issues and it really is your extractor, just forget about any of those you mentioned and get an AFTEC
http://www3.mailordercentral.com/shootingstore/prodinfo.asp?number=AFT001

And never have problems again.

Sactown
September 23, 2005, 12:50 AM
Second the AFTEC.

andrew17
September 23, 2005, 01:20 PM
Thanks all, i'm gonna go with a carbon extractor no doubt and just leave it in the white if i don't like the looks of it. Any complaints about C&S i should know about in advance? I kinda like the idea of a actual spring steel extractor.

The C&S extractors have had a history of comming with hooks that are too long. I've ordered 6 of em in the last year and every one has had hooks that measure between .039 and .042.
Other than having to shorten the hooks, they seem to work good.

Also, I hear that Bar-sto is now making a true spring steel extractor but I havent seen one yet.

Dorian
September 23, 2005, 01:44 PM
I replaced the Extractor in my Springfield GI 1911 with an Ed Brown Hardcore.

I have had absolutely zero malfunctions since the switch. Didn't even need to tune the extractor.

1911Tuner
September 23, 2005, 03:16 PM
Aftec... :rolleyes: A 70-dollar answer to a 30-dollar problem. Ditto for the "New and Improved" Power Extractor from Para-Ord. If they'd all just admit that ol' John Moses trumped'em...and make the things out of 1090
steel...Heat treat and draw'em to a spring temper, and set the tension >correctly< on the assembly line... extractor problems would fade into obscurity. Of course, that would be too much like actual work that would require real training for the assemblers. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Rant off. :cool:

Old Fuff
September 23, 2005, 06:52 PM
Tuner:

I was looking at that AFTEC gadget, and wondered how to adjust the tension on those two little springs????????? Poor ol' JMB worked for years to make a SIMPLE pistol, and look at what some folks are turning it into.

We got little springs attached to the extractor, and plugs going crosswise to the firing pin, and little levers next to the sear and hammer, and the nose on the grip safety has been gutted to where it's too thin to peen - but you can't anyway because of the material they make 'um out of.

I suppose some of this is necessary so that they can make parts out of molded or cast green cheese.

When the computer software folks put out something like a regular program, but with less features, they call it a "special edition."

Maybe we should denote some of these new 1911-looking pistols as "Special Editions" to seperate them from the real thing ... :evil: :banghead:

FullEffect1911
September 23, 2005, 10:52 PM
yeah most likely i'll get the C&S extractor. It just seems like the senseable way to go. :rolleyes:

HD
September 23, 2005, 11:10 PM
its called 'making sure no one ever gets to return anything'... :neener: :scrutiny: :uhoh:

mattjoe
September 24, 2005, 02:58 AM
"A 70-dollar answer to a 30-dollar problem"

I suppose you're right if the use of the gun is strictly messing around at an informal gun range, and say, 98-99% reliability is good enough.

But if you're looking for 100%, no worries, no retuning every few thousand, then it's worth only $40 more for the peace of mind that your equipment is something you never have to think about, and your gun can't be blamed, only you can if you mess up a stage in a match, or whatver you're using your gun for.

Besides, if you're not a gunsmith, or have any real knowledge about how to tune an extractor, what's it going to cost you to go running back to the local gun smith to tune your extractor? $20 minimum? Do that twice, and you're at the same price.

The top USPSA shooters, the guys who put the most rounds downrange every year, use these things for a reason.
As for adjusting tension on the Aftec, you really set it and forget it.
You can run it with one or both of the springs.
1 spring, tension is lighter, both, it's tighter. I've never even tried mine with only one, but a friend uses only one in his. No clue why, I just know they work.

It just really depends what you're going to use your gun for I suppose if you'd want to spend the little bit extra on the Aftec.
If you're shooting matches and have money, guns, and other prizes you can win, may as well invest the extra few dollars. 1 jam can be the difference between 1st and 2nd, and no free gun.

Jammer Six
September 24, 2005, 03:23 AM
Popcorn. We need popcorn.

1911Tuner
September 24, 2005, 06:48 AM
Quotes:

>I suppose you're right if the use of the gun is strictly messing around at an informal gun range, and say, 98-99% reliability is good enough.<
********************

98-99% reliability is a liability that I won't put up with. Reliability is my specialty, mah fren, and I'm anal-retentive over it.

>But if you're looking for 100%, no worries, no retuning every few thousand, then it's worth only $40 more for the peace of mind that your equipment is something you never have to think about, and your gun can't be blamed, only you can if you mess up a stage in a match, or whatver you're using your gun for.<
********************

How about extractors that...other than routine removal for cleaning every 2-3k...haven't been touched in years...through multiple rebarrelings and a
complete rebuild? Over a hundred thousand rounds for two of'em...and
one retensioning while the gun was down for a rebuild at 75,000 rounds...
not becasuse it was malfunctioning...but because it just didn't have quite enough to suit me....and one of the above mentioned was a used WW2-era
USGI extractor from a junked Ithaca when I got it. One of the prime reasons that these extractors have lived so long is due to the fact that I use proper magazine designs only, and avoid all others like they had cooties.
************************

>Besides, if you're not a gunsmith, or have any real knowledge about how to tune an extractor, what's it going to cost you to go running back to the local gun smith to tune your extractor? $20 minimum? Do that twice, and you're at the same price.<
*********************

It ain't exactly rocket science, Matt...and the gun ain't exactly a Swiss watch. There are so many instructional posts here on the subject that you couldn't read'em all in a day. Rarely does the job take more than 15 minutes or so. It does require a good-quality extractor though...preferably one made of spring-tempered steel. Several of the members here have successfully fitted and tuned their extractors. Others who have come here to see the process are a little amazed at how simple it is. Also...if an extractor should happen to need retensioning, it's a three-minute job that doesn't require specialty tools.

Last...I've seen a few Aftecs go south too. If the owner doesn't happen to have a new set of springs on hand, he's outta luck. If he does, sometimes the new springs don't have the right tension, and the gun isn't reliable. I've also seen a couple break the hooks clean off. (See proper magazine design)

Cheers!

Old Fuff
September 24, 2005, 09:18 AM
>> It just really depends what you're going to use your gun for I suppose if you'd want to spend the little bit extra on the Aftec. If you're shooting matches and have money, guns, and other prizes you can win, may as well invest the extra few dollars. 1 jam can be the difference between 1st and 2nd, and no free gun. <<

Uncle Sam used the 1911 pistol, with John Browning's extractor, in a couple of big high-stake games called World Wars. I've lost count of how many smaller such "games" might have been fitted in too. Through it all, the pistol had a remarkable reputation for reliability, and it was seldom in the shop for repairs or adjustments.

As Tuner pointed out on many occasions, his range beaters go through thousands of rounds yearly, are seldom adjusted, and are very reliable without having to resort to "gadget fixes."

I have shot a number of older USGI pistols going back to before the First World War, that were used enough so that their original barrels had been replaced, and the replacements were worn out too. Yet they were totally reliable, and even decently accurate. I put about 8 to 10 thousand rounds of surplus hardball through one of them before I (regrettably) traded it off, and it didnít miss a bobble. Oh, and other then clean it, I never touched the extractor Ė that judging from finish wear was original to the gun. During those long-gone days I didnít adjust extractors, and didnít know anyone that did. Callow youth that I was, I didnít even know that they needed adjusting.

As a breed, gun-gamers have one thing in common regardless of what the game may be. They have to try out all of the latest fads and gadgets. I know, Iíve been there and done that. Looking backwards I can see that a lot of my money was wasted. The main purpose of gadgets is to put bucks into the makerís pocket.

So long as the extractor is correctly made, and made from the right material (which is seldom these days) and fitted as it should be in the first place, there is seldom any trouble. This used to be the way it was, today itís the exception to the rule. Thatís part of the reason we see so many after-market parts and gadgets being offered.

I donít play any of the games anymore. My present interest in reliability has more too do with taking care of No. One, and not prizes, free guns, (I donít know if they are all that ďfree,Ē considering the cost of winning one) or trophies. I am fortunate that the pistols I depend on are for the most part, older ones Ė that were made right in the first place. I feel sorry for todayís buyers that have to choose between affordable junk or selling the farm to buy a decent pistol. It doesnít have to be that way, and it shouldnít.

If the gamers want to play with expensive gadgets I have no objection. That after all is part of the game, or at least seems to be. But long-term reliability isnít dependent on this $70.00 part, and you wonít find one in any of my pistols. Others of course can make their own choice.

andrew17
September 24, 2005, 10:14 AM
Popcorn. We need popcorn

How about some pork rinds, Tabassco flavored please :D

Seriously, has anyone seen one of the Bar-sto extractors yet?


Oh, and some sweet tea :p

1911Tuner
September 24, 2005, 10:21 AM
re: Fuff's post...

The thing is, that the 1911 has remained so popular...that popularity has given rise to aftermarket products that are made mainly for one purpose...
To sell!

"They" have managed to convince us that the pistol is not only fraught with design flaws that make inherently unreliable, but that we "need" these things to "work out the bugs" that escaped the notice of John Browning and a team of engineers from Colt and the Army Ordnance Department.

Things like full-length guide rods and trick 8-round magazines and three-piece extractors and all manner of magazine followers of diverse shapes and features...and shock buffers...and...Well, you get the picture. Fact is, that
we managed very well for nearly 3/4ths of a century before the appearance of such things on the open market...and we still can. Incidentally, three of my hard-use beaters are basically stock early-production 1991A1 Colts...and one is a NRM 91A1. Other than a straightforward, ordnance-type rebuild on the older three...including refitting of the slides and the fresh barrels, the guns haven't had any secret tricks fostered on them. They're very much as they were delivered from Colt in late 1991 to early 1992. One has never malfunctioned. On the other two, the total number of malfunctions can be counted on the fingers of one hand. The NRM had a little rough spot early on, which took all of a half-hour to correct, and hasn't burped since I bought it used in 2001. (Got a good deal on that one. The guy didn't trust it because of the frequent failures to return to battery. It was the "New and Improved" dimple throat that caused it.)

This, in spite of the fact that 98% of my ammo is reloaded with my home-cast bullets...some of it so well beaten that the headstamps are illegible.
Limp-wrist malfunctions are non-existent. I never get to practice malfunction clearance drills, and the only time I have to tweak an extractor is when I install a new one in somebody else's gun...or when a malfunctioning magazine has forced the hook to climb the rims.

The extractor is the weak link in the 1911 design? I don't think so, Tim...

Jammer Six
September 24, 2005, 02:58 PM
How about some pork rinds, Tabassco flavored please
Never been able to get past the name...

Can't see putting something called a "pork rind" in my mouth... :D

Tuning an extractor was the first thing I learned to do, and I learned it here.

My only objection to extractors is that those of us who know WOOD and not metal have no way of telling a good extractor from a bad one. We have to go on reputation.

Once you eliminate the ones with springs, chains or flashing lights, to a guy like me, they all look the same.

Does bring up an interesting point, though.

Mattjoe, I have a question for you.

Why do gamers insist on telling veterans about weapon reliability?

andrew17
September 24, 2005, 03:44 PM
Never been able to get past the name...

Sheesh,,, then I'm not gonna even offer ya some Pigs Feet :neener: :D :p

My learning curve has been kinda steep with extractors because I'd never done much metal work (besides sharpen knives) before I killed,,,,ahem I mean tried to tune my first one. The way I look at it, any parts that I trash while trying to learn how to fix my guns are chalked up as a "learning expense"
The old, "Give a man a fish,and feed him for a day,," saying applies here.

Old Fuff
September 24, 2005, 03:57 PM
Numrich/Gunparts Cpropration (www.e-gunparts.com) has investment cast unfinished extractors (Item #268430) for $4.85

As extractors go they're close to junk, but they are perfect for someone who is learning, and doesn't care to mess up the expensive kind.

Knowledge and experience doesn't necessarily have to be expensive ... :evil: :D

Jammer Six
September 24, 2005, 04:40 PM
Sheesh,,, then I'm not gonna even offer ya some Pigs Feet
Ohmygawd... [cringe]

Go away, or I'll throw a Starbuck's Double Short Breve Mocha on you! :D

Knowledge and experience doesn't necessarily have to be expensive ...
Oh, sure, NOW you tell me... :cuss:

There IS the point, however, that at $30 a shot, $30 a mistake, I seem to learn faster... :banghead:

Old Fuff
September 24, 2005, 04:58 PM
Well in your case I'll make an exception. You're sort of like the government - if there's a problem throw money at it ... :neener: :D

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