Deer Hunting with cap/ball Revolvers


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warbirdlover
September 22, 2005, 01:26 PM
Here's Wisconsin's rule on using them for deer hunting:

Muzzleloading handguns .44 caliber and larger with a minimum barrel length of 7 inches measured from muzzle to breech face, that fire a single projectile
weighing 138 grains or more are legal for deer hunting.

Since in over 40 years of deer hunting I've got my share using a rifle I'm tempted to try this. I know I could use a blackpowder rifle etc but this has kind of caught my interest.

In one of the threads in this forum it stated a soldier accidentally shot and instantly killed his horse when his Walker went off. If a Walker can kill a horse a Colt should be able to kill a deer, right? I mean these guns killed Yankees and Rebels alike in the Civil War.

Any thoughts would be appreciated as usual.

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RyanM
September 22, 2005, 02:46 PM
If by "killed" you mean "gave them peritonitis and/or gangrene so they died in agony after a week," then yes, cap and ball revolvers "killed" plenty of soldiers.

Then number killed outright was no doubt much lower; the "rules" for ballistic injury via cap and ball guns are the same as any type of firearm. Hitting the central nervous system (brain, upper spine), will result in an instant stop 99% of the time. Other than that, you have to put a big enough hole through a vital enough structure (heart, aorta, both lungs, etc.) in order to kill a person or animal in good time.

It's certainly possible to kill a deer with a cap and ball, if you place your shot just right. Just as it's possible to kill one with a .32 cal BP rifle, a .22 LR, or an airgun. But would I recommend it? Unless deer in WI are a lot smaller than they are in PA, no way.

If you're absolutely dead-set on hunting with a cap and ball revolver, I suggest using the heaviest conicals with the broadest, flattest meplats you can find. Use the hottest load you can, while still getting fist-sized or better groups at the distance you plan to be hunting at. Pick your shots as if you were bowhunting; get as close as possible and go for a double-lung shot that passes completely through the deer.

And take along a buddy with a high-powered rifle, to soften the deer up a little before you take your shot. :neener:

unspellable
September 22, 2005, 03:00 PM
That soldier may have nailed the horse between the eyes where anything would have killed it.

As for dying later, I know of a deer being shot with one of those plastic bullets propelled by a primer and no powder. It baely broke the skin, but as suggested above, the wound festered and killed the deer.

I would consider a 50 caliber single shot pistol as providing about the absolute minimum horse power for shooting a deer, and that only in the hands of someone who will hold his shot until he can place it exactly where it will do the job and is then able to so place it. (In other words, a better man than I am.) No cap & ball revolver can match the ballistics of a 50 caliber single shot.

For myself, I consider a 357 SuperMag or a hot rodded 44 Special as about the lower limit.

Hunting regulations seldom make much sense. The obvious problem is that they are usually proposed by people who don't know what they are doing, but even if they do, it's pretty difficult to come up with a rule that will cover all the bases. Here in Iowa a 357 SuperMag is legal for deer but a 357-44 B&D is not. Both will propell the same bullet to about the same velocity. A 44-40 is illegal on grounds that it's too powerfull, but a 445 SuperMag is legal o ngrounds that it's not too powerfull. The 445 will propel the same bullet to nearly twice the velocity a 44-40 will.

Camp David
September 22, 2005, 03:03 PM
If a Walker can kill a horse a Colt should be able to kill a deer, right? I mean these guns killed Yankees and Rebels alike in the Civil War... Any thoughts would be appreciated as usual.

warbirdlover: A few thoughts on your post! Yes, you can hunt deer with a blackpowder revolver!

Although officers of both sides (Union & Confederate) used blackpowder revolvers of several manufactures during the war, as well as the cavalry, they were not as accurate as some might think, and their use was confined to close-in firing... The Colt, either Army or Navy in .36 or .44, was the cherished weapon; contrary to what you may have heard the Colt .44 Walker did not see much Civil War service; it was used earlier in the Mexican war by Walker's Mounted Dragoon cavalry.

For hunting, provided you use at least a .44 ball with +70 grains of blackpowder, you should have sufficient stopping power. A few suggestions: (1) Shoot pistol often enough beforehand on the range so that you are familar with its average grouping at a standard range (100-300 feet) with a known and consistant powder charge (60-70 grains). Then hunt with those same criteria. (2) Be sure to grease cylinder after loading to prevent multiple fires. (3) Since a blackpowder pistol handles moisture poorly, keep it holstered until you need to fire it. (4) You will need to use a deer stand or put yourself in a position where deer come very close to you to get close enough to use pistol. (5) Several manufacturers make and offer maxie ball .44 ammunition (cast balls) that are superior for hunting; use them.

A number of years ago, I hunted with several blackpowder revolvers in New England (upstate VT) using a Colt Army .44 and a Camera. The Colt .44 was carried in a shoulder holster and I just held the camera with telephoto lense., which I used for spotting in heavy conifer brush!
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4922/aaaarmycolt3fa.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Enjoy!

warbirdlover
September 22, 2005, 03:21 PM
Btw, Wisconsin deer DWARF Pennsylvania deer. I had a buddy who moved here from Pennsylvania and he couldn't believe the body mass on our deer. Then, of course, you go to Canada and their deer dwarf ours, LOL. 200 lb field dressed bucks are very common. Most field dress over 150 lbs. I see a couple every year 240 lbs field dressed (weighing them on the registration station scales).

Well, on the killing power of these guns, how did anyone win a gunfight with them if they didn't kill quickly?

Somewhere I read where you should shoot a modern handgun into a barrel and then a .44 black powder. That the modern gun makes clean round holes and the black powder rips and tears huge ragged holes in the barrel?

I highly doubt I'll actually use it on deer unless one walks by at 10 yards since I'll have my trusty Ruger stainless synthetic .300 Win Mag rifle along but thought this could make an interesting post.

I have seen most of the wounding on our deer (harvested during gun season with festering wounds) caused from lousy shots by bowhunters. Nothing against bowhunting (two time Wisconsin state archery champion and shot competitive archery for 25 years) but too many bowhunters don't practice enough to get good enough to hunt. But they're out there anyway.

Camp David
September 22, 2005, 03:40 PM
SOME RESOURCES FOR YOU

Wisconsin:
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/enforcement/safety/muzzleqa.htm

Black Powder Ballistics For a Variety of Loads Here:
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/bpballistics.HTM

A Cap-and-Ball Buck
http://hunting.about.com/od/deerbiggame/a/capandballbuck.htm

Interesting story here: http://www.komar.org/faq/hunting_rats/stories/kurts1.html

RyanM
September 22, 2005, 05:42 PM
Well, on the killing power of these guns, how did anyone win a gunfight with them if they didn't kill quickly?

Same way people win gunfights with .380s and .32s. "Oh my god I've been shot!" tends to be more of a factor than actual physiological damage in the majority of human shootings. For instance, the .357 SIG has a much better track record than the 9mm, yet testing in tissue simulant (http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000581;p=1) shows that the .357 SIG basically replicates 9mm ballistics, with a small amount more temporary cavitation (which does not contribute to wounding effect at handgun velocities). However, the .357 SIG is considerably louder and flashes brighter than 9mm, making it have more of a psychological effect.

Same with the .357 magnum vs. .38 SPL. While modern .357 magnum ammo does fine, back in the 70's and 80's, all you had to choose from were softpoints which only expanded some of the time, or hollowpoints which broke into a million pieces on impact. The .38 SPL lead hollowpoints of the time, on the other hand, did just fine; they'd expand and penetrate pretty well. Yet the .357 magnum had a better street record, because they were louder and brighter.

There are several recorded instances where people (including violent criminals) collapsed unconscious after being shot in the arm or leg (flesh wound only), or even missed entirely. And not just with .357 magnums, though these instances are most common at close range, in dim lighting, with a "flashy" gun. About the same number as all the cases where some dude got hit 20 times and kept running.

And of course, black powder guns tend to make a fireball that put smokeless powder to shame.

In a nutshell, "stopping power" amounts to either hitting someone where it counts, or making them panic and/or faint because they think they've been shot (whether they actually have or not). If you hit a nonvital area, and they don't realize they've got a hole in them, or are determined/enraged/just plain mean enough that they don't care, the biggest bullet in the world won't do squat in the short term. And animals aren't going to just give up the way humans do.


Somewhere I read where you should shoot a modern handgun into a barrel and then a .44 black powder. That the modern gun makes clean round holes and the black powder rips and tears huge ragged holes in the barrel?

Try doing the same thing with a Red Ryder and a magnum pellet gun, only shooting a pop can instead of a barrel. The Red Ryder will dent the can pretty good, rip a ragged hole out of it, and send it flying. The pellet gun, on the other hand, will just zip pellets right through without disturbing the can much, leaving small .177" holes on either side. Then see which one drops ground squirrels faster.

warbirdlover
September 22, 2005, 07:58 PM
Well, one thing is missing. Adrenalin. You're in a gun fight (or war) and you can take a lot of damage and still go on.

My brother had half his calf blown off by a mortar shell in Vietnam and his first reaction was to get up and run. He flopped around like a fish out of water until the feeling came back in his legs and hiked all night to get away using a stick and bleeding profusely. Fainting from fright was the last thing on his mind.

I think if you were on the receiving end of a .44 black powder revolver you'd be in a world of hurt. It's sure not a bb gun.

Beartracker
September 22, 2005, 08:11 PM
Warbirdlover has it right here when it comes to being on the recieveing end of the .44 cap and ball.
Over the years I have taken many deer with my .45 Kentucky long pole with 70g fffg and none of them went over 30 yards.
Was hunting squirrel one year with my .32 long pole with 40gr. fffg and deer season was still in. I forgot that I was hunting with the .32 and shot a 6 point at 30 yards. The deer made two jumps and dropped dead.
Don't ever think that the cap and ball will not drop large game and the the .44 is no exception. It just matters where you place the shot.
Any solider who was shot in the chest, lungs , heart area did not dye from infection. He died from the wound.
I do believe that any Civil war solider would have a good laugh at some of the under rating statements made today about his cap and ball guns and what they would do to there own or there foe ;)

RyanM
September 22, 2005, 08:21 PM
My brother had half his calf blown off by a mortar shell in Vietnam and his first reaction was to get up and run. He flopped around like a fish out of water until the feeling came back in his legs and hiked all night to get away using a stick and bleeding profusely. Fainting from fright was the last thing on his mind.

Obviously then, your brother has a lot more fortitude than the average criminal that gets shot by the cops. Click this link (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs29.htm) and scroll down to "Emotional Fainting: An Involuntary Psycho-physiological Mechanism of Collapse." This (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf) is an informative read as well.

I think if you were on the receiving end of a .44 black powder revolver you'd be in a world of hurt. It's sure not a bb gun.

Same goes for a .22 LR, .17 HMR, or even a .10 Eichelberger Dart (.10 caliber, uses a necked-down .25 ACP case). Having holes put in you hurts. And if that hole happens to intersect with a sufficiently vital organ, it's lethal.


Any solider who was shot in the chest, lungs , heart area did not dye from infection. He died from the wound.

Actually, even as far back as the revolutionary war, uncomplicated lung shots were among the least lethal wounds. As long as the bullet did not hit a major blood vessel, the heart, or shatter a rib, all you'd have to do is patch the holes and get plenty of bed rest, and you'd be as good as new.

Beartracker
September 22, 2005, 08:44 PM
RyanM, You may be right but I have never heard of an uncomplicated lung shot before. Maybe we have a Doc on here who can wad in on the subject. When your lung has a hole in it not many people make it without medical help . You drowned.
I'm sure there are many cases of people living without any medical attention but I do believe many more died without it.
Some of you may find this link interesting as it gives a little insight into what a C&B .44 can do.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=111091&highlight=.44+remington+ballistics

RyanM
September 22, 2005, 11:28 PM
I haven't found the exact reference I was thinking of yet, but was able to find one reference to the wounding ability of the old .30-40 Krag. I'll keep looking.
More pertinent to the present discussion is this pointed shape's effect on the bullet's yaw in tissue. The first full-metal-jacketed bullets (1885-1910) were over four calibres long and round-nosed. Typical of this bullettype are the 6.5mm Carcano and the 30-40 Krag bullets; they penetrate tissue simulant travelling point-forward for 50cm or more before significant yaw begins (Fackler, M.L., unpublished data, 1987). The very minimal wounding effect produced by these early round-nosed jacketed bullets was remarked upon by surgeons of the time (Kocher, Markins, Brunner, Abbott, LaGarde, etc.). Even those soldiers with through-and-through chest wounds in which the bullet missed the large vessels (but passed through the lung) would be fit to rejoin their units in a few weeks.
http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html

And the play-dough results really aren't that impressive. It hasn't been calibrated against ballistic gelatin, or with any bullet of known penetration, so the 17" figure just means that the bullet goes 17" in playdough. Only data I know of is from Stopping Power (and so could be as much as 30% off in either direction, penetration-wise, since Marshall never calibrates his gelatin); Colt Walker, 141 gr @ 1287 fps, 17.8" penetration, recovered diameter .53".

Assuming the flattened roundball is as effective at crushing tissue as an expanded hollowpoint, the Colt Walker with roundball is only slightly more effective than a 9mm with the poorest quality hollowpoints. Would you hunt deer with a 9mm pistol and ultra-cheap hollowpoints, in a non-emergency?

Beartracker
September 23, 2005, 12:03 AM
We need to look at facts not just statistics or data or data gathered through lab eprk. Here is a fact that I know about. Fact one is that A deer will fall from a .32 round ball from a muzzle loader. Fact two: A deer will drop from a .45 round ball as well. Fact three: many men have fallen from a round ball from all of the above including others like the .36 Navy, .45 army, .44 Remington has taken down many a man and critter.
Would I have a problem useing a 9mm. I would not if I was useing Cor-Bon (89% one shot stops) and a .40 would be much better if useing Cor-Bon ammo with a rate of 98% one shot stops.Why do you think that most states only require that you hunt with a bullet of .38 or larger for deer or bear?
The ammo used in the 30-40 craig was the problem , not the caliber. If they were to shoot a round ball from the 30-40 the out come would have been very different, I'm sure.
No matter what is used it all boils down to shot placement much more than caliber, balistics, or bullet style for the weapon to do the job. Mike

RyanM
September 23, 2005, 11:12 AM
We need to look at facts not just statistics or data or data gathered through lab eprk. Here is a fact that I know about. Fact one is that A deer will fall from a .32 round ball from a muzzle loader.
Okay, so if something happens once, it's automatically a "fact?" Gee, now I feel really stupid for never buying a lottery ticket. The "fact" is that even the old .30-30 has lots a ton of deer. Shot placement is everything, but weaker rounds give you far less of a margin of error.

Fact two: A deer will drop from a .45 round ball as well.

A .45 roundball at 850 fps is not in the same league as a .45 ball at 1600-1800 fps.

Would I have a problem useing a 9mm. I would not if I was useing Cor-Bon (89% one shot stops) and a .40 would be much better if useing Cor-Bon ammo with a rate of 98% one shot stops.

Okay, so first you say this magical ammo will stop someone 89% of the time, no matter what, even if you miss, or even if you throw the bullet at them instead of shooting it. :neener: Then you say that shot placement matters more than caliber and junk. Make up your mind!

FYI, Cor-bon ammo tends to penetrate 9" or less, and usually loses 30% or more of its weight. Some don't even make it 6". Given that deer have much thicker skin than people, I seriously doubt that a regular Cor-bon would even make it halfway into one lung. You seriously need to read http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

warbirdlover
September 23, 2005, 12:20 PM
I don't know, I just get tired of the "magnum" mentality nowdays where you can't kill anything unless it goes 2,000 fps and has 3,000 ftlb of energy. Example are "turkey loads" for shotguns. They used to kill turkeys with normal shells but now you have to buy these special expensive ones.

I think at 10-20 yards a .44 black powder will kill a deer (and not by festering). Period.

Whether I will actually try it I don't know. I started this thread for some fun and I don't care if I "win" the discussion or not, LOL.

:uhoh:

Beartracker
September 23, 2005, 12:39 PM
RyanM:

"Okay, so first you say this magical ammo will stop someone 89% of the time, no matter what, even if you miss, or even if you throw the bullet at them instead of shooting it. Then you say that shot placement matters more than caliber and junk. Make up your mind!"


Wow, You sure don't read very well do you? No where did I make that statement as you have written it above.
This could go on forever so I'm going to drop it.Take care and have a good one, Mike

RyanM
September 23, 2005, 01:43 PM
Wow, someone doesn't look at smileys very well. The whole "one shot stop" thing is just utterly ridiculous no matter what your criteria for a "one shot stop" is.

1911 guy
October 3, 2005, 12:34 AM
There are a couple interesting things about American hunting. We killed moose and elk long before the advent of the 30-06 yet now consider that to be the minimum. The .36 was a very common caliber in the "old days" but we're now debating the effectiveness of the .44. If I were interested in stopping deer in their tracks every time I'd use a rifle that fired sledge hammers. I don't mean to sound argumentive, but sometimes I think we overthink things.

Texfire
October 6, 2005, 06:42 PM
There are a couple interesting things about American hunting. We killed moose and elk long before the advent of the 30-06 yet now consider that to be the minimum. The .36 was a very common caliber in the "old days" but we're now debating the effectiveness of the .44. If I were interested in stopping deer in their tracks every time I'd use a rifle that fired sledge hammers. I don't mean to sound argumentive, but sometimes I think we overthink things.

:what: Whew! I'm trying to imagine the size of the muzzlebrake you would need for that monster. Talk about perceived recoil... ;)

PowderBurn
October 9, 2005, 09:08 AM
Here's Wisconsin's rule on using them for deer hunting:

Muzzleloading handguns .44 caliber and larger with a minimum barrel length of 7 inches measured from muzzle to breech face, that fire a single projectile
weighing 138 grains or more are legal for deer hunting.

Wisconsin's rule is a little tricky. What you quoted does pertain to muzzleloading handguns. But the general rules for muzzleloaders apply to handguns as well. One of them states that your muzzleloader (handgun or long gun) must have a solid threaded breach plug, which your revolver does not have.

When I first read Wisconsin's regs on this matter a year ago, I had the same assumption you did. But I wrote to the DNR and was told that muzzleloading revolvers were NOT legal during muzzleloading season, but WERE legal for regular firearms season. Sounds odd, but the message was very clear.

I'm not suggesting or discouraging the use of a percussion revolver for this purpose, but wanted to make sure you didn't get a rude surprise from a DNR officer in the field.

Good hunting!

Zeke/PA
October 9, 2005, 11:04 AM
I have posted on this subject before but here goes:
I have killed exactly one deer with my Ruger Old Army.
The large doe was about 15 yards from the base of my treestand and with my butt on the platform, my back against the tree and pistol resting on my knees, I placed the round ball right behind the deers ear.
All conditions were suitable and the Old Army is of course a very accurate handgun.
Respectfully, Zeke

JShirley
October 9, 2005, 12:47 PM
I think, with a high enough skill level, almost any firearm is adequate. With a fairly high skill level, some firearms are preferable.

Unfortunately, the way to be listened to here is NOT to quote "one shot stop" data. Not only is the data flawed, it is meaningless to a discussion about an entirely different animal.

Regards,

John

Zeke/PA
October 9, 2005, 03:37 PM
Mr Shirley,
I do not wish to start a flame war but in my last post, I stated all conditions prior to my shot.
I consider myself a very disaplined hunter and if I did not convey the said disapline in my post, I apoligize.
Handgun hunting, while a challange, is not for everyone and the black powder segment makes it even more so.
No offence intended.
Respectfully,Zeke

JShirley
October 9, 2005, 09:25 PM
Shucks, Zeke, I wasn't directing anything at you. :confused:
The Old Army is a very sturdy handgun, and it sounds like you used it well. :)

Best,

John

Zeke/PA
October 10, 2005, 06:22 PM
John,
I am at fault for taking your comments the wrong way.
No harm done.
Respectfully, Zeke

warbirdlover
October 12, 2005, 11:38 PM
PowderBurn,

Yup, you're right on the Wisconsin laws. I wasn't talking about the muzzleloading season but the regular gun season. Just forgot to mention that, LOL. Anyway, got my .300 Win Mag. Ruger stainless synthetic all zeroed in and have finally got on some fantastic private land this year. Had my name on the waiting list for a few years. The Ruger will put 3 holes on a quarter at 100 yds. all day long with most any ammo I feed it. It's one in a million. I used to handload for all my rifles to get a group I liked but gave it up when I couldn't improve on factory loads with this gun. The land owners in this whole area do not shoot small bucks. The size of the bucks taken off this property in the last couple of years would knock your socks off. It's a marsh with high ground oak woods and open fields beyond that. My brother said if you don't see 75 deer opening day you've had a bad year and those aren't all does. If it sounds like I'm primed for this year, you're right!

Zeke/PA
October 21, 2005, 02:58 AM
I spent this afternoon at my club with several different pieces.
I shot a slug gun, a Pre-war Model 70 and my Thompson Center Hawkin.
I also shot about 50 rounds through my Old Army.
I truly love this pistol and I'm looking forward to some squirrel shooting with it.
Respectfully, Zeke

Spiggy
October 21, 2005, 03:19 AM
Well, on the killing power of these guns, how did anyone win a gunfight with them if they didn't kill quickly?


Killing quickly wasnt the point... it was to damage the other force as much as possible through hot fights, manuvering cold conditions, catching good shooting points... or even ramming them head on. Every wounded soldier is a lesser statistcal threat than a healthy well fed soldier. It was attrician, more people and gear you had, the farther you are ahead. Not to mention that these folks practically lined up to be shot.

In the 7th grade, we demonstrated warfare with a lot of water balloons and two regular line formations... wet day it was

ngota44
November 17, 2005, 08:37 AM
I couldn't wait until this years deer season. I've shot deer using 12g slugs
all the way down to a 65gr .222. Never shot a deer twice, always got them
on the first shot. Well last Sat. (I'll admidt it was only 25yds) I had my oppurtunity and almost 2nd guessed myself out of it. One shot straight through the heart with a Pietta .44 1858 SS. 30gr pyrodex pellet, .454 ball,
TC lube, and Remington #10 caps. It ran 15 yds and droped dead. The only
thing is There was no blood trail, no exit wound, the ball stayed in the chest
cavity after exiting the heart. I would gladly do it again, but I would never
shoot beyond 30 yards with it. Good hunting

.44walkersabot
November 11, 2007, 08:39 AM
Well, I was going to pass, but I will jump in here for a moment I guess. I'm not telling anyone what they should do, shouldn't do, can do or cannot do. Sometimes I hunt deer with a .45 inline, but lot's of times I hunt whitetails with a .44Walker. The sights take some getting used to and the Walker has a tendency to climb. (I mean the ball as it head's downrange) I have hit bucks with the Walker and seen them jump almost straight up for what looked like almost ten feet and fall stone dead. I have hit bucks straight on in the chest and knocked them backwards a good 6 feet. The ball penetrated damned near from their chest to their ******* and the wound channel was horrendous.... Understand here now, although I belong to the NRA and whatnot, I am NOT a sportsman. I hunt for meat. I eat what I kill. I have at least a little bit of common sense. No way would I consider shooting 'from mountain to mountain so to speak' with a Walker. I keep a hunting license because I'm hoping at least the money I pay for it help's to do some good. I think it does because when I was a kid growing up in North Alabama, there were no deer. There just wasn't any. Now there's so many of them they come into your back yard and eat your garden. Open the door and they just stand there and look at you...Of course people killed deer (and lot's of other stuff) with a .36. That was 'bout the heaviest thing they had until they began opening up the western half of this country and ol' Mr. Hawken or Mr. Sharps or one of them ol' boys got off their ass and got busy....Anyway, ya'll know anybody with the sense God gave a piss ant that's want's to stand 100 yards in front of a Walker loaded up with a heavy powder charge when it goes off?..Didn't think so...In heavy brush that Walker is idea. Hand gun, easy to manuever, heavy slow moving round that will 'punch through the brush', and plenty of stopping/knock down power.I guarantee you; you get a good solid lick on his ass with that Walker he ain't going anywhere but down.,I promise ya'll I don't mean to sound like a smart-ass and I'm not, but I mean, Hey! co'mon here! People have been killing large game animals for supposedly thousands of years with a bow and a couple of slender little sticks, and I'm talking about before the days of the compounds and what have you. I think somebody here maybe need's to hold a seance and have a little chat with David Crockett and Daniel Boone and a few more of those ol' boys. Maybe talk to Robin Hood and Friar Tucker and them to. I understand that just using a bow and a couple of those slender sticks they put a hell of a dent in the deer population of Sherwood Forest...Well anyway, the Walker is NOT a rifle by any means, but for deer, wild hogs, etc, it has ALWAYS served me well. Like I said, I had a bad problem with the sights when I first started with it (tendency to shoot way over the target) but over time I got that pretty well worked out...I can't say a word one way or the other about the 'regular' .44 cap and balls. Never used one of them. I do have a .44 Cattleman's Carbine (blackpowder) but I'vd never really shot anything with it except for tin cans and one rattlesnake. It blew the snake's head clean off and that's basically all I expected and wanted it to do. It is EXTREMELY accurate after you get the sights set on it, I know that. Thought about squirrel hunting with it but it seem's to me too much like 'overkill'. Probably damage too much of the meat to. Probably wouldn't be anything left but maybe one front leg and the tail after that .44 hit it. I think it's made by Uberti. I know my Walker is. I'vd got a Colt 1849 Pocket .31 with a four inch barrel made by Uberti that I hunt squirrels with and rabbits sometimes and stuff like that. It does a pretty good job. It always does what it's supposed to do; it's me that misses the shot now and then, not the gun. Hell, I'm starting to ramble here. Let me close. Just wanted to state where I stand. Not trying to convince anyone of anything or talk anyone into anything..Later ya'll..

Pulp
November 11, 2007, 12:21 PM
Personally I feel the cap and ball revolvers are a bit light for deer. With a possible exception for the Walker. And I'm not a magnum fan either. This year I'm hunting with my .44-40 loaded with XMR5744 for about 1500 fps.
But if a person has the skill to place a bullet where it needs to be, every shot, and under the spell of buck fever, and has the integrity to limit theirself to not shoot beyond their ability, then I don't have a problem with whatever firearm they choose.


Good luck to all who hunt this year.

JCT
November 11, 2007, 12:38 PM
The Walker was the most powerful handgun until the .357 magnum was developed.
With a 60 grain charge, I'd have no doubt you could take down a deer, bear or other larger game. If I remember correctly, the specifications for the Walker while being developed was that " it had to be powerful enough to hunt buffalo".
The Uberti Walkers are well made and tough. 60 grains of some high grade BP ( Swiss, not Goex ) would pack some serious punch!
Maybe someone can ring on who has hunted with one?

Pulp
November 11, 2007, 11:13 PM
I had mine loaded for a hog hunt with 55 grains of FFg under a Buffalo Ball-et. Didn't get to use on on hogs, so I took it to the next cowboy action shoot. First stage was inside a cabin, shooting through a window. By the third shot I had the cabin to myself.

Pancho
November 12, 2007, 12:53 AM
WHAT'S NEXT BULLWHIP SEASON FOR WHITETAILS? I swear to you that that was a newspaper headline in a Wisconsin newspaper 27 years ago and they were talking about new cap and ball revolver regulations. I was driving to Northern Wis.from my home in southern Ohio to pick up a horse trailer and stopped to get breakfast. The newspaper stand copy caught my eye with that headliner. I don't have a dog in this fight but this thread triggered my memory.

Pancho
November 12, 2007, 12:56 AM
BTW, What is the maximum powder load in a Walker. Dixie lists it as 22gr. but they list all of their 44's at 22 grains.

Pancho
November 12, 2007, 01:06 AM
No matter what you hunt with it takes integrity to hunt well.

Shawnee
November 12, 2007, 01:47 AM
I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at an unalarmed deer at 50-60 yds. with my Ruger Old Army. Still would choose my Super Blackhawk as my "go to" all day long though.

mykeal
November 12, 2007, 08:50 AM
Pancho asked: BTW, What is the maximum powder load in a Walker. Dixie lists it as 22gr. but they list all of their 44's at 22 grains.

The Walker will hold close to 60 gr fffg, and it will shoot that much all day long without damage. However, you won't come very close to what you're aiming at as accuracy diminishes rapidly near 50 gr. Also, most of the powder charge will burn outside the barrel; the increase in velocity after about 45 gr is minimal as the barrel is too short to take advantage of the extra powder (even at 9 inches!).

It's a hoot, however; the very definition of a hand cannon. I've loaded mine with 55 gr under a lubed felt wad.

frosty
November 12, 2007, 11:47 AM
I own not 1, but 2 Ruger OLd ARMY's. I firmly feel that loaded to the hilt and a good bullet on top, the roa's are more than capable of killing whitetails at forty yards, or so...perhaps some cap and ball pistols which havent the powder capacity of say dragoons, walkers, or ruger old armys, lets be sportsmanlike and keep those shots within 25 yards to fully utilize there potential. On the other side of the coin, it was'nt that long ago when I read an article in guns&ammo by Gary James about several wild hogs being taken with ruger old armys using as much h777 they could stoke and still be able to seat a Lee 220 gr conical. I think it was around 40 gr or so. I am considering a wild pig hunt in southern Ohioi with my old armys.:evil:

SlamFire1
November 13, 2007, 07:32 PM
I have a Colt 3 rd Model Dragoon. This is a big pistol, second only to the Walker in terms of powder charge. Took it shooting. With 40 grains of Black powder, and a 140 grain round ball, it has all the power of a 38 Spl. My chronograph data is as below.

Perhaps Wisconsin has allowed the use of these pistols, just to get hunters out in the woods, but in my opinion, I think a 38 Special pistol is not appropriate as a deer hunting round. Not that you cannot kill a Blue Whale with it, put right down the spout, but more likely, the poor deer is going to run off and die a suffering death.

Colt 3rd Model Dragoon


142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumetric Measured GOEX FFG RWS cap
24 July 1999 T= 99 -100 ° F

Ave Vel = 785
Std Dev = 30
ES 73
Low 741
High 814
N = 4


142 gr .454 Round Ball 40 grain Volumetric Measured GOEX FFG CCI#11 cap

24 July 1999 T= 99 -100 ° F
Ave Vel = 837
Std Dev = 18
ES 56
Low 814
High 870
N = 8

.44walkersabot
November 13, 2007, 09:35 PM
NOTICE!! ANYONE WHO READ'S THIS PARTICULAR POST PLEASE CALL IT TO PEOPLE'S ATTENTION WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT DEER HUNTING WITH A CAP AND BALL REVOLVER... I'm the one who typed the post about hunting deer with a .44Walker. I had mentioned in the post that I owned a .44 Cattleman's Blackpowder Carbine, and that I had only used it on tin cans and one fat ass diamondback rattler which I cooked and ate, and insinuated that I didn't know much about it's power which was also true. WELL!! A friend of mine came by today and I was telling him about this site and the posts I had made, and mentioned the part about the Carbine. He grinned and went and dug a blanket wrapped object from rhe back floorboard of his little Ford Ranger pick-up. He unrolled the blanket and it was a .44 Cattleman's Carbine just like mine. My brother had a few brand new 2x4's left over from his shed in the back yard. I GUESS they are made out of pine. He loaded up that Carbine all the way around with 30 grains of Triple Seven fffg behind .451 balls. We leaned a couple of the 2x4's up at 12 yards (I say again--12yards) from my brother's back porch. He then sat in a chair on the back porch and shot 6 times. EVERY TIME HE SHOT, HE SHOT COMPLETELY THROUGH A 2X4...YESSIR. That little Carbine shot completely through those 2x4's at 12 yards. It done it. I was standing there watching. I saw it. I know it happened, just about 2 hours ago. Just right before dark. My brother saves cans and sells them. (Mostly just to give him something to do, I think) I took 6 of those cans and carried them out across the way to what we estimated was around 60 to maybe 65 yards. He shot 6 times. He hit 6 cans, I saw it. I was there. I KNOW it happened. Anybody that dosen't believe that Blackpowder .44 Cattleman's Carbine will shoot clean through a 2x4 can try it for themselves. Now.. Can you imagine what that will do to a deer's head at around 20 to 30 yards or so? (Indeed further than that) He told me he's killed over 25 deer with that Carbine. I asked him about the range on the shots and he just sort of blew it off by saying--"Aww, Not too far. A couple of them were on out there". He said his deer hunting loads for it are 33 grains. Said he never had a problem with that load except when he first started using it and wanted to see if the gun could handle it. He said he shot it about 40 times pretty fast and that one screw started backing out just a little bit. He said he hunt's squirrel's with it but he 'barks' them. (shoot's right into the tree next to their head and it knock's them out or at least stun's them so they fall out of the tree) Well, maybe some of ya'll knew this but I think there are a lot of people who didn't. The kind of people I have read on here that take a .338 Winchester Magnum out to get a little white tail deer. I'm gonna stick with my Walker (I love that piece of iron) but I'm glad to know a little more about the carbine. I'vd NEVER doubted they would do a number on a man because that's basically what they were designed and tested for, and in my mind I have always known that, but it was still good to see anyway...Well, anyway, I do agree that a lot of people like in the War Between The States died of infection. I agree with that. But at the same time I was reading that I also knew for a damn fact that one of those .44's would kill a man's ass dead in his tracks, or blow his brains all over the damn wall behind him, be it from a Colt or a Remington. They would back then and they will today, and they will tomorrow to...Okay..

Omnivore
November 13, 2007, 11:28 PM
Black powder handguns may be carried, but are not legal for taking deer in BP season in Washington state, or so was the case last season, for I specifically checked on that point. Always check your local regs.

I personally know a fellow in Idaho who used a 40 S&W auto pistol to kill a deer. The range was close, but the 10 mm diameter hollowpoint slug went all the way through the deer at an angle. IIRC, it penetrated over 18 inches through the "boiler room" before exiting, and the deer collapsed nearby.

An 1847 Walker can generate as much or more power than the .40 S&W.

There is a bow season, and a bow is somewhat less powerful than a C&B handgun. Point is, you must know your arms, how to use them, and when not to use them.

Bezoar
November 13, 2007, 11:35 PM
A bp handgun requires that the user be able get within incredibly short range of the animal. True Elmer Keith could do incredible long range shooting with an old SAA and bp cartridges, but how many of us actually come that close in shooting ability without the use of bipod/bench/high power handgun scope?

Millwright
November 13, 2007, 11:46 PM
Can you kill a deer with C&B pistol ? Damn straight ! Some, like the Walker and the 1858 Remmington have more than enough power to get the job done. POF, until the appearance of the Linebaugh and its derivatives the "most powerful handgun in the world" wasn't a S&W Model 29 .44 Mag, but the Walker Colt.

Question is, do you have what it takes to make a humane kill with an antique weapon ? You've still got to stick that chunk of round ball into the deer's vitals which means holding until you've got a shot you are sure you can make because you've done it many times on the range. That means ranges of 20 or so yards - or less.

I shoot C&B wheel guns all the time. They can be remarkably accurate out to 100 yards, but won't humanely kill much more than a rabbit at that range either. If you shoot round ball range decreases exponentially with game size. For serious hunting I'd suggest a Keith bullet with a hollow base - Lyman carries the mould - in a 1:20 ratio. >MW

JCT
November 14, 2007, 01:00 AM
Where do you get that info? I agree, with a full load of real good BP like swiss, a Walker or Dragoon has plenty of punch to drop a deer.
A Walker was probably the only handgun that could take a 60 grain charge, even the 45 colt cartidges weren't much more than 40. I wouldn't hesitate to use my Lightning rifle or 1860 Henry to hunt deer, a good BP load and short range shot and it should work well.
Usually it's said that the Walker was the most powerful handgun until the .357 mag. I don't think it's power is very close to .44 magnum at all.
Still, round balls with 60 grains pushing them have some serious power. Some say that anything over 45 grains doesn't get consumed in short barreled guns, well, use good BP and you notice a huge difference!

•••Taken from THR archive, post by MEC••••

• Walker 60 Grains Swiss fffg 140 +or-1 grain ball
Velocity 1200 fps Energy 448 Foot pounds.

• .357 Magnum 125 Grain JHP
Velocity 1450 Energy 584 foot pounds

• .45 Colt 250 grain RNFP
Velocity 870 Energy 402 foot pounds

• .45 Colt 250 Guessed-at but unknown black powder load performance
Velocity 900 Energy 450 fps.

.44walkersabot
November 14, 2007, 08:46 AM
What is a Keith bullet? I'vd never heard of them. (I don't get around much) Would they shoot good out of a Walker without damaging the lands and grooves? Any information would be appreciated. Also, reckon someone like Dixie Gun Works up here in Tennessee would have them to sell? Thank you, whoever answers...Okay...

.44walkersabot
November 14, 2007, 08:57 AM
MillWright, I just re-read your statement. I picked up on the part about Lyman molds. I think I can talk to a product specialist like maybe at Cabela's and they will give me some lowdown on the Keith...Okay...

DrLaw
November 14, 2007, 08:58 AM
A kind of semi-wadcutter. Designed by Elmer Keith.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21

The Doc is out now. :cool:

DrLaw
November 14, 2007, 09:06 AM
Until I read this thread, the thought of hunting with a cap & ball never occured to me. It's like not seeing the forest for the trees. So ingrained in my brain pan is the thought of a Davey Crocket character with his Kentucky Rifle that I never gave a thought that the lowly six-gun might ever have a use for hunting.

I do not think we can do that in Illinois though, which is another reason why I never gave it any thought.

However, many moons ago I was was the range officer for a central Wisconsin Police Department. Just for laughs I brought out my .44 Lyman Remington replica and could have qualified with that, had I been able to reload really, really fast! :D

The Doc is out again. :cool:

SlamFire1
November 14, 2007, 10:21 AM
We leaned a couple of the 2x4's up at 12 yards (I say again--12yards) from my brother's back porch. He then sat in a chair on the back porch and shot 6 times. EVERY TIME HE SHOT, HE SHOT COMPLETELY THROUGH A 2X4...YESSIR. That little Carbine shot completely through those 2x4's at 12 yards.

Just recently I was watching a television show where the bad guy shot at the good guy with some high capacity pistol. And guess what, the good guy was behind a chair back and therefore the bullets did not penetrate!

People see this sort of rubbish, thousands of thousands of hours of this rubbish, and they believe it. In real life, bullets will shoot through chair backs.

Of course your carbine could shoot through a 2X4. I am trying to remember, but I am quite certain I have shot through 2X4's with my .22LR pistol.

There might have been a time when 2X4 were considered an appropriate tissue simulant, but times have changed. Ballistic gelatin is used now.

What I have read, is that these old 44's gave quite decent performance in ballistic gelatin, considering the low bullet mass, and low velocities of the things. However, modern bullets, with higher velocities perform better.

I do not feel confident enough of my hunting marksmanship skills to hunt with a pistol, never mind a black powder pistol. I would not hesitate in the least to use a 58 cal Musket, I know that will knock um dead, and so will my round ball .54 Renegade. I do consider the Renegade at the low end of the power spectrum.

Taken my Renegade out a number of times, only killed a squirrel with it. I see deer when squirrel hunting, I see squirrels when deer hunting.

sundance44s
November 14, 2007, 10:52 AM
I use to do alot of test fireing my Remmie 44 through wet phone books and pine boards before I broke down and bought a crono ...You`d be supprised at how many pine boards the ole cap and ball Remmie will shoot through .
The latest testing I`ve done has been with my 45/70 black powder loads 65 grs of Goex 3f under a .405 gr lead bullet will shoot through a railroad tie at 30 yards . Shame I`ll never go hunting in Africa and find a real use for this cannon .

.44walkersabot
November 14, 2007, 07:34 PM
I don't really get to take THAT many shots with the Walker. I'm hid real good and I wait there patiently until they start by me so to speak. Lot's and lots of times I don't take a shot because I'm just not sure. (The Walker will probably do it but I'm not sure about me) I don't want to hurt him and make him suffer, plus I'm not really starving to death, plus I don't want to have to spend all that time trying to find him. If I'm going to hunt in sort of an open place where I have to shoot on out there a ways I use a CVA inline .45..It is very accurate the best I can tell. I'm sure some of the people on here will smile, but the reason I decided to go with an inline when I got interested in muzzle loading is because it has a removable breech plug. They even give you the tool with it. Of course they caution you all to hell and back in the manual about removing the plug, but I always do. That's the only way I can rest comfortable in my mind that the rifle is really clean for sure. That Walker though. Man that thing is something else. I know it's not a big pretty and shiny magnum and all but I like the weight, the noise (sometimes), the smoke, everything. I was scared about the blued finish that came on it when I first got it. I know I had a Ruger .357 Blackhawk single action. I BELIEVE it had a 71/2 inch barrel. It shot the yellow and green real good and all, but the bluing wore off on the barrel pretty quickly, sliding in and out of the holster. My Walker hasn't done that. It changed color some and look's sort of grayish but it's still blued. Look's better now than it did when I bought it...Well, anyway. If I'm deer hunting with it (like around the heavy undergrowth close to a river or something like that)I use 48 grains behind a .457 ball. Remington # 11...I know it would hold a little more powder than that without being overloaded and just spewing it out the muzzle, but I'm comfortable with what I use. People get stuff in their minds. Hell, I might have settled on 48 because that's the year I was borned. I know it get's the job done. If someone started breaking into my house tonight I'd reach for the Walker. Wouldn't have to hit him. The noise and the flame combined would probably give him 87 consecutive heart attacks right on the spot. Thank ya'll for the information on the Keith. I am going to check into it tomorrow morning...This is a good site. Hell, I may never get off of this one thread...Okay...

Shureshot
November 15, 2007, 09:33 AM
All this techno-babble aside, I hunt deer with my Pietta .44 all the time, as well as Russian Wild Boars. I have never had a problem. They drop where they stand.

Of course, I am staying within the limits of the firearms performance. 20-30 yards, from a tree-stand is about right.

Use logic for bit. Archers regularly kill deer with a projectile that is slower and smaller than any BP revolver. You just have to use the weapon within it's limitations.

Semper Fi!

Blackfork
November 15, 2007, 11:05 AM
If I ever bought a vintage cap and ball or even flintlock...the FIRST think I would think about is shooting a deer with it. Crockett, Boone, those revolutionary guys and civil war guys are my heroes.

Thanks for the postings, lots of great info! Good luck this season.

I'm hunting with a K98 and a Krag this season...now I feel like a new guy.

.44walkersabot
November 15, 2007, 08:50 PM
Mr. Shureshot, after seeing those 2x4's shot through and knocked around, and after walking back over and looking at those beer cans and seeing a couple of them torn almost half in to, I have absolutely no doubt but that you're telling the whole truth, the complete truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God. Blackpowder season opens here 'officially' in a few hours. I have examined my .44 Cattleman's Carbine in minute detail, busted 6 # 10 Remington's to dry the nipples good. and it is now leaning up here about 2 feet from me, loaded all the way around with exactly 31 grains of Triple Seven 3fffg in each chamber behind six .451 balls. The fresh caps are not on it yet. Other than that it's ready to go. In a few more hours I'll be ready to go to.. I'vd shot a few wild hogs (their meat taste's better to me than the 'supermarket pork' plus it's a lot cheaper), but I don't know what a Russian Hog is. Might like to get me one sometime..SEMPER FIDELIS..Okay...

Shureshot
November 16, 2007, 04:52 AM
In the N. Ga. mountains, we have Russian Boars, decendents of one brought here from Russia in the early 1800s. Here's what they look like on a good day:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n45/suejoel/boar1.jpg

They average 300-400 lbs. They are Big, mean, ugly and delicious. They are also incredible tough and hard to put down.

We also have Buffalo hunts here (on private land), but I use my Sharpes .54 for that.

Semper Fi!

.44walkersabot
November 16, 2007, 01:21 PM
You're right.Very impressive. Lean and mean. I bet that's some damn good eating right there..Well, I went out this morning with the carbine, but I still had the Walker holstered on my belt. Didn't see anything except a couple of squirrels and I think 3 rabbits. (I might have seen one of the rabbits twice I'm not sure) Might ease out there late this evening right before dark and see if I can catch one moving. I know pretty well where they pass..I looked at that picture again. That's a nice looking hog Shureshot..SEMPER FIDELIS..Okay...

.44walkersabot
November 16, 2007, 09:09 PM
Just came back in awhile ago. Got too dark to see how to shoot straight. Getting kind of chilly out there again to. I'll be back out there in the morning though. I'm just out back behind my brother's place. There's deer all over. (except for right where I was I reckon)...I talked to a product specialist today at Cabela's about the Keith bullets. Someone from the special products dept. (there's a difference between special products dept. and the products specialists dept.) is supposed to be calling me back in the next couple of days or so. I also talked to Cabela's about the carbine and the regular revolver. I was thinking, after seeing the deal with the 2x4's, and reading Mr. Shureshot on here, that I might save up some money and buy an 1858 .44 New Model Army. 8 inch barrel, 2 pounds, 11 ounces, etc...I was thinking that if I had a loaded cylinder in one that maybe if I took the notion I could just swap cylinders from one to the other but Cabela's said no. They told me the cylinder from the revolver would fit easily into the carbine but not to do it because it left too large of a gap. Also, they told me the cylinder from the carbine was longer and would not fit into the revolver even though both of them are built on what appear's to be the same frame. Cabela's also told me their revolvers were made by Pietta. I explained to him and somebody else he had dug up there that my carbine was made by Uberti and reckon was that the reason the cylinders were not interchangeable. They told me they couldn't answer that and didn't have any specs. that would help me. They also told me that although the cylinders would not interchange the powder charges for both of them were the same. They also told me they sold spare cylinders for the revolver but not for the carbine. I'll talk to DGW tomorrow and find out if they sell spare cylinders for the carbine (I'm almost willing to bet they do) and/or if I buy a Uberti revolver will the cylinders interchange..I know both of them will push .451 balls...I went on Cabela's site awhile ago and looked at the revolver. I had to call them back and get a unit numder on the one I wanted to see because it wasn't listed. It's the blued target model with adjustable sights. I got a closeup on it and studied it real good. It's a damn good looking revolver. The reviews spoke very highly of it. Shureshot (and I'm sure a lot of other people also) said he hunted deer and wild hogs with his (his post is on here) and he said he's never had a problem with his Pietta. Said it had plenty of power to so long as one stay's within the normal working range of the piece. It's got an 8 inch barrel so it SHOULD be fairly accurate on out there a little ways.,,Well, anyway, I'll be checking into all of it. I'm going back out in the morning about daylight. Just have to walk about 75 yards and I'll be at my spot..Okay...

mykeal
November 17, 2007, 12:43 AM
A Walker has a 9" barrel and holds 60 gr of powder under a .454 ball. It weighs 4 1/2 pounds. There's no comparison between it and a Remington New Army.

DrLaw
November 17, 2007, 01:49 AM
I answered my own question by checking the Illinois regs. We can't use a black powder handgun here. Only cartridge handguns of .30 caliber or higher and a certain power, forget what that is right now (basically a .357 or larger).

Still, it was a nice dream while it lasted. :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:

.44walkersabot
November 17, 2007, 07:46 AM
Yeah, I know about the Walker. I use .457 balls. I'm not giving up my Walker. That's my mainstay right there. See, the only handguns I own right now are all blackpowder. My Walker, a Colt 1849 Pocket .31 with a four inch barrel, and I bought one of those North American mini .22 mag. 5 shot blackpowder revolvers. Little by little I have bought lot's of spare parts for all of these revolvers. (cylinders. mainsprings, loading levers, grips, cams, all sort's of stuff. Mostly from DGW. I can tell you right now some of those parts don't come that cheap. Like a cylinder for the Colt Walker 're-issue' dosen't cost that much, but the cylinder for the Uberti [which is what I have] ColtWalker is pretty damn expensive) I'vd never had to use any of the spare parts and I don't carry extra cylinders around with me. I'm trying to keep it simple. I'm already keeping up with number 11 caps, number 10 caps, 209 magnesium primers, .22 mag. balls, .451 balls, .457 balls, and .45 sabots (not all my .45's are saboted) ranging from 180 grains up to 300 grains. Plus trying to keep a little Triple 7 3fffg to push this stuff. That's plenty enough for an old man to have to worry about...Man I really like this site. I can just get on here and talk my ass off. Love my brother but can't talk to him about this stuff. He deer hunts with a damned ol' 30-06, and squirrel hunts with either his .410 shotgun or one of those Ruger 1022's. No challenge there..Like shooting a buffalo. Good meat and it'll feed you for a long time, but I've shot a couple in Wyoming and it's just like walking out there and shooting a cow. (beef cow).. That picture Shureshot posted of that hog, I really like that picture. I like cooking and eating wild hog..I have knocked a few hogs ass over teakettle in my life with that Walker. Just regular old wild hogs I reckon. Some of them (most of them) were fine looking animals but none of them looked quite as good as the one in that picture I think. I have never shot real blackpowder in my life. When I decided to try muzzle loading and see what was so wonderful about it I turned to Cabela's because I was already familiar with them, having bought cold weather clothing and stuff from them. I tried some of their 'Black Mag' which I guess shot alright. (I didn't have anything to relate it to) It kept me in plenty of Antelope meat I know that, and got a pack of staving assed dogs (coyotes) off my ass one time. Then they either ran out or quit carrying it so I tried Triple Seven. It seemed to shoot alright to so I just stayed with it. Hey! If it's not broke don't fix it...Well,anyway, I'vd rambled on enough here. Really like this site. I would be willing to bet that if someone had time to really go through this entire site they could find the answer to any firearm question they could possibly have. If they didn't see it they could just ask and someone on here could answer it for them...Well, anyway...Okay...

BP pistol hunter
December 5, 2010, 10:52 PM
You can get 1000 + fps (313 ftlbs) with a 141 gr .454 ball and 35 gr of 777 in an 8 inch Pietta 1858 revolver and over 1200fps (450 ftlbs) if you go up to the 12 inch version. I have them both and that is what I have chronographed them on both my chrony and my hunting buddies as well. I use a wad between the powder and ball. 777 is way hotter than pyrodex or swiss but it does not liked to be compressed too much. I have gone as high as 40gr of 777 and have reached higher velocities but accuracy starts to fade a bit and velocity spread gets too unpredictable. 777 powder has given these old guns a very welcomed power boost. I have taken a wild boar with my 1858 stainless bison revolver with a 12 inch barrel using a .454 ball and 35 gr of 777 and the boar dropped dead no need for a follow-up shot. This load creates a very serious and large wound channel due to the soft lead expanding rapidly and basically just tearing it's way through the flesh dumping all it's energy on the target. A pure lead ball driven with 35-40 gr of 777 has far more killing power than most people give them credit and will take deer or hogs cleanly up to 50 yards with authority.

Snowdog
December 6, 2010, 02:27 PM
BP Pistol Lover, you are one hardcore disciple of 777. Was that post a cut 'n paste of the reply you posted on my thread? That was also dug up from the dead, being 6 years old.

Good to hear you're getting good result with 777 and thanks for the head's up. I'll give that stuff a try. But I think we got your point within your first 5 posts describing your 777/ 12" barrel results.

BP pistol hunter
December 11, 2010, 05:49 PM
Snow Dog, yep I cut and pasted the info because it made no sense to type it all again. 777 is a great thing if loaded right. These cap and ball pistols with stout 777 loads are very efficient hunting weapons in the right hands providing humane kills on deer and hogs out to 50 yards. As in all types of hunting you must use correct bullet placement or it won't work no matter how powerful a weapon is used. I will be posting some of my kills soon. I have shot a lot of game with cap and ball revolvers with stout 777 loads and good quality wads and balls and let me tell you they make a hell of a wound channel. I just bought two new pistols, a Vortek 50 cal single shot and a William Parker 50 cal pistol. I am about to start working up some real powerful loads for these with 777 and sabot conical bullets and will be posting my results here soon. Here in Florida you may hunt wild hogs all the way through March in most public lands and year round in private land so I will be using these guys next and see how they do.

robhof
December 11, 2010, 08:38 PM
44 your talk of hunting buffalo reminded me of my wife's uncle in South Dakota; seems their neighbor used to raise rodeo stock including buffalo. He sold off most, but had one very tame bull that was too old and going blind. He called the uncle to shoot it for him, he didn't have the heart to shoot a pet. The uncle had some hunters up from NY(lawyers) and asked if they wanted to hunt a buffalo, one jumped at the chance, the uncle warned him about how dangerous they can be so he would take a long shot, when they got to the field the bull started toward them, the hunter got his buf, but wanted it caped and the meat shipped to him, the uncle ended up working hard for the freebie. The poor buf was probably looking for treats, the hunter was shaking when he took the shot and was wired for hours.

andrewstorm
December 13, 2010, 02:20 AM
I have recently took my first r o a killed deer,and im tempted to do all my hunting with a roa ,ive stalked bucks to 20 yrds,with a 50 cal,now i like the long range running shots with my omega,but theres nothing like being there eye to eye......................................................:D

x_wrench
December 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
Hunting regulations seldom make much sense. The obvious problem is that they are usually proposed by people who don't know what they are doing, but even if they do, it's pretty difficult to come up with a rule that will cover all the bases. Here in Iowa a 357 SuperMag is legal for deer but a 357-44 B&D is not. Both will propell the same bullet to about the same velocity. A 44-40 is illegal on grounds that it's too powerfull, but a 445 SuperMag is legal o ngrounds that it's not too powerfull. The 445 will propel the same bullet to nearly twice the velocity a 44-40 will.


YES SIR, AMERICA'S FINEST CRIMINALS (polaticians) HARD AT WORK. chipping away at our rights with every law they pass. never mind if it makes any sense or not, as long as someone slips something into their pocket!

i do not know if it still holds true or not, but a long time ago, my uncle told me that colorado had the best law on firearm restrictions for deer hunting. i believe it was the gun had to have 1000 ft pound of energy at the muzzle to qualify. period. i do not know if it was true or not. he went there and hunted deer several times. but using a 30-06, i do not think he had to worry about the restrictions anyway.

45-70 Ranger
December 18, 2010, 02:38 AM
An old C&B revolver shooters take on this subject. Killed first deer with a .45-70 in 1963. Used an old 1878 TD Carbine. Load was 55 gr. of 2F and an Ideal 385gr. RN. Dropped in his tracks.

In 1965 shot 150# buck with a 2nd Mod. Dragoon. 20 yd. shot. Took one step and fell dead. Same year, doe at 25 yds. same pistol. Fell dead on the spot. 1966 4 hogs from 150# up to 350#. Same gun. The 350#er went ten feet then went down. The others dropped like hit with a poleax. Took a total of 12 deer with Dragoon from the first in'65 to the last in 1996. Last hog killed with BP wheelgun. 11-10-2010. Remington .44. RB with healthy load of 777. 250# boar. Instant kill. Have probably taken over 2 dozen hogs with Dragoon. Three with the Remington. Have never attempted this with a .36, but I know from my hunts with the .44 Dragoon and the Remington .44 that there is no magic to it. Keep your shots close. Use the best shot placement you can. And hunt like you mean it.

I was a cop for 25 years and have seen all kinds of wounds on humans. Have hunted much longer than that. My point is this; properly placed shots from ANY weapon can be lethal. Inteligent shots WILL be lethal when using a weapon that is capable of doing the proper amount of tisue damage. A .44 cal. C&B revolver with enough power behind it will bring down a deer, hog, coyote, bobcat, well you get the picture.

A Dragoon, Walker, Ruger Old Army, Remington .44 all will do the job IF you do yours. Hunt responsibly. Like I told my son long ago, "If you can't make the shot, don't take the shot." Keep the range short. Your paitence long. And pass on the ones you KNOW you can't make. It's that simple.

Off my soapbox and going to bed.
Wade

BP pistol hunter
December 19, 2010, 01:37 AM
45-70 Ranger what loads are you using in your 1858 Remington to hunt with? I use 35-38gr of 777, a wad and a.454 141 gr ball in my 12 inch barreled stainless 1858 and have been extremely pleased with it's performance and accuracy out to 50 yards on wild hogs..

45-70 Ranger
December 19, 2010, 09:51 PM
BP Pistol Hunter, I see that you're a fan of 777. Me too. In fact today I was out back at my range popping rounds with my .44 Rem. Fired off 12 rounds with 777 and then just for old times sake, 6 rounds with some old DuPont fff black. That was just to keep this old man happy by sniffin' the old stuff. But, I almost never use anything else but 777 these days. It is amazing.

As to loads, for just plinkin and such, 24 gr. of 777 3F with Wonderwad. Hits point of aim at 25 yds. with this load. Tight groups. Huntin takes on a whole new light. 35 gr. of 777 3F and wonderwad. This is flat shooting out to around 50 yds., but I won't take a shot at game at that distance. I keep them close and right. The 35 gr load is a barkin son of a gun I gotta admit. It does punch deep into the pigs we have at where I work. (Love that part. After retireing from law enforcement, I moved to east Tx. and now do private security at a site way out in the woods. I get to kill as many hogs that I can find.)

The Dragoon is just fine loaded with Pyrodex and good ole BP, but with 777 that big boy goes into hyper drive! So, using 777 in the Rem. is now a fine balance between size, weight, and great shooting with a punch. Yup, is a good combination for me. This Rem is the third Rem I've had. Got talked out of the first two by another re-enactor buddy...MY BAD. Shoulda kept 'em both. But the Pietta Rem. 44 is straight shooting. Well balanced and nice. My Dragoon, an, old Replicia Arms import from the early 60's has been my "go to gun" for hunting and such for decades. But......this Remington is a fine shooter....

Ok, I went on a bit, but I do love to hunt with BP wheelguns and my trusty .45-70!

Later,
Wade

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